Intro: The Babylon project was our last best hope for Scott. A self-contained podcast one-hour long located on the internet a place of fun and discussion for Babylon 5 fans everywhere a shining beacon in cyberspace all alone in the night. It was the dawn of the 20th anniversary of Babylon 5 the year the Great War to free Bab five came upon us all. This is the story of the last of the Babylon podcasts. The year is 2014 the name of the place is the Babylon project podcast [Music]
Maggie Egan: This is Maggie Egan your ISN news anchor and you’re listening to the Babylon project podcast thanks for listening!
Raul: Hi Babylon 5 fans this is Jim and Raul again. We are here for another exciting episode of the Babylon project podcast. Jim how are you doing this evening?
Jim: Doing real good. And rip-roaring ready to go.
Raul: Okay how much are you gonna pay me to edit that one out? [Laughter]
Jim: Leave it in, leave it in. We’re real people you know
Raul: Oh gosh mind war was very much a favorite episode and that’s what we’re going to be talking about tonight Wow it it was the first of the start well first of the major Star Trek crossovers
Raul: we get Walter Koenig playing Alfred Bester
Jim: Alfred Bester completely and totally different than his role on Trek is Chekov
Raul: very much so in fact this really was the role that broke the mold for him and who else do we have Julia Nixon returns as Kathryn Sakai
Raul: another one of my favorite characters and who else
Jim: Felicity Waterman is Kelsey
Raul: you know I apparently she’s a known quantity but for some reason I’m not that familiar with her
Jim: neither neither am i there are two notable films that she was in La Femme Nikita was one and then die hard 2 was the other
Raul: okay and last but not least and sort of the major character of this particular episode
Jim: yes William Allen young as Jason ironheart
Raul: and he did … okay I’m gonna have to put a disclaimer upfront he played the character perfectly
Raul: but I still found the actor but the character annoying somewhat
Raul: and we’ll get we’ll get it to that to put this disclaimer out I have to put this disclaimer up in front before we get too far in because I’m not dumping on the character so Ironheart fans please don’t don’t take us don’t take offence here
Raul: but we have we’re having fun with what will we have fun with the character
Raul: so you want to go ahead and step right into the summary so we can get into the details of the show tonight
Jim: okay let’s do it
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in the opening scenes of mind war earth fighters confront a stolen transport the fighters appear to be the same as Earthforce fighters but have the Greek letter Omega on their hull. as the fighters attempt to stop the transport there is a bright flash of light when everything clears the fighters are gone but the transport moves on later the transport obtains permission to dock at Babylon 5 two people a man and a woman arrive on the station both dressed all in black with black gloves they approach a security officer who asks for their identicards the couple seems to be communicating telepathically as the man hands over his card to the officer on the card is the same Omega symbol that was on the fighters the officer says that he will personally take them to Sinclair while Sinclair seems to be busy with something the security officer introduces the couple as VIPs to see him he begins to answer an unasked question and then tells the couple to get out of his mind the couple introduced themselves as Bester and Kelsey to psych ops who are charged with tracking down and capturing a rogue telepath meanwhile in another part of the station Jason ironheart is being shown his quarters he accepts the terms and dismisses the woman showing him around he then activates the computer which begins telling him about the amenities that are available on the station when suddenly ironheart begins showing signs of discomfort and the room begins to shake back in Sinclair’s office Bester and Kelsey tell him about ironheart they explained that he is a p10 that is working for intelligence they believe that he went rogue to sell secrets to alien races that could jeopardize the entire Earth Alliance military structure Talia the telepath assigned to Babylon 5 arrives and Bester and Kelsey ask her if she has had any contact with ironheart she tells them that she has it but is informed that she will need to be scanned anyway Talia resists and sinclair tries to intervene on her behalf but talia is required to submit under sitecore regulations talia appears to be in some discomfort while being scanned but they confirm that she is telling the truth kelsey further tells talia that she is to have no contact with i returned after Talia leaves Sinclair’s office she finds ironheart waiting for her in a court she asks him why he is being pursued by Bester ironheart explains that he chose to volunteer for some psycorps experiments and was told that the experiments were to make telepaths stronger the experiments went on for months and were very painful but his powers were strengthened and the experiments were actually designed to create telekinetic telepaths he at first thought that they wanted the telekinetic abilities for large things such as helping with construction but he learned later that what they actually wanted was someone that could manipulate things on a molecular level and who act as assassins he cannot be allowed to be captured even if it means his death in the command center Garibaldi explains to Sinclair that he has learned that one of the ships that has docked was a stolen transport and that it was from the last place that ironheart was seen Garibaldi says that he wants ironheart found Aetna off the station and especially wants the psych ops off the station he also mentions that there are about 50 quarters that need to be searched Bester enters the command center as Garibaldi is leaving and as they pass Bester scans him and learns what Garibaldi just told Sinclair ironheart has a mind quake that shakes the entire station Bester recognizes this phenomenon and Sinclair and Garibaldi run out to find and confront Bester Sinclair tells Bester that he should have warned him about the danger of iron art being on the station and then asks what further danger there might be Bester admits that he doesn’t know iron heart stills his mind quake by concentrate Bester and Kelsey decide that they will have to stop iron heart by using a telepathic failsafe code to capture him iron heart has barricaded himself into his quarters Talya makes contact with him and he allows her in to talk ironheart explains Talia that he needs to rest he further tells her that things on earth are changing once the site core was under the control of the government but recently they are getting more and more control and are actually starting to pull some of the strings in the government he tells her that he is no longer who he was and he is transforming or as he describes it he is becoming Talia brings Sinclair to see iron heart iron heart tries to explain to Sinclair that he is becoming and how his power is increasing he will be dissected and studied if he is caught and he says that there can be no more like him he asks Sinclair to help him get off the station Sinclair agrees and orders the way to the docking bay cleared Bester and Kelsey guess what Sinclair is doing and meet Sinclair Italian iron heart in the corridor Bester and Kelsey tried to send the failsafe code causing iron heart to have another mind quake Kelsey pulls her PPG to shoot iron heart and he tries to warn her then Kelsey disintegrates and vanishes Bester gets a shot off an iron heart disables him they finally get iron heart into his ship and off the station a large energy surge is detected near the station and a large figure appears outside it is iron heart as he has become he says goodbye to tally and gives her a gift and then tells Sinclair that he will see him in a million years and flies off to oblivion Sinclair and Garibaldi meet with Bester Bester says that reports will need to be filed but Sinclair informs him that he will not get any backup from anyone on the station and all of the records have been erased at Garibaldi’s urging Bester departs in her quarters alone Talia tries her new powers of telekinesis by moving a coin across her desk her gift from iron art in a subplot Catherine Sakai has been hired by a large Earth Corporation to survey the planet sigma 957 the planet is believed to be rich in a substance called q40 that is used in the construction of jump gates there is a shortage of q40 and Jumpgate construction has fallen behind further sigma 957 is in a contested region of space so she also needs to Kars permission to go there for the survey jakar warns Catherine that it is a dangerous place in that she should consider changing her mind he further says that no one on the station is exactly who they appear to be she decides to go anyway despite Shekhar’s advice and departs the station when she arrives at sigma 957 she encounters a huge alien craft that renders her ship too short on power to escape a decaying orbit or to even contact anyone for help just as she is about to hit the atmosphere tune arnhem fighters arrive on the scene and help Kathryn return to Babylon 5 she thanks to Carr for helping her and asks why he did he says that there was no reason for her to be killed and that her death would have upset Sinclair unnecessarily finally she asks what the ship was that she encountered at the planet jakar explains that some things are not knowable and that there are races in the galaxy that are far older than humans or any other races on the station and to them we are just as ants are to humans initiating plot analysis ok thank you Jim for another summary yes you know we have inertia and our show prep we try to come up with three points of discussion and you know what it really looks like we’ve got two of the same three yes which is which which amazes me because when we get this ready we have rule number one we do not discuss the show before we discuss the show so we had to establish that folks because what would happen is we get talking or we’d get typing texting and one of us would be like oh crap why are we recording this yes we should be recording it so now we record everything yes so yeah we are both of our point number ones were the Catherine and Jack our story absolutely true that that was that was oh why how do I want to say it that was the story that took jakar for me at least that took to car from being an annoying piece of slime petty troublemaker – okay there’s there’s some real depth to this character here that’s going to be interesting to see develop yeah I have to agree we get a glimpse into his more thoughtful side and the philosophical future that that lies ahead of him yeah and it’s it’s very deep and it’s really one of the more rewarding characters to watch develop in a lot of ways yes well there was one point there in the story where he called back to najran to get the heavy fighter that was heavily armed and it seemed you know it was like why is he doing this you know is he gonna have her killed or what you didn’t really know which direction he was going I wasn’t thinking he was gonna have her killed but more of a chaser way blacker black hater from where she was trying to go okay but I sure as heck didn’t expect oh he was he knew what was gonna he knew something was going to go south so he sent a rescue mission yeah he anticipated well ahead of time what was going to happen and he took steps to address it yes and that actually goes to one of your other points no one here is exactly what he appears yes why did that one stick out for you well Jaccard notices what’s going on with everybody he he can see oh gosh how do I put this not really sure he mentions Sinclair is not what he seems to be well we those of us that have watched the show we know what that what that’s about Londo isn’t what he appears to be you know Londo seems to be more of an aristocrat who is you know trying to put on the airs but he is he is actually quite a deep feeling human being human being Centauri being you know everybody has their story Tahlia is not who she appears to be you know I don’t date men of the air yes and of course the psyche or who knows what their agenda is at this point mm-hmm you just gave a perfect segue to our other common point and that is the introduction of the psyche or oh yes wonderful mr. Bester which is actually my third point I actually separated Bester from the psycorps Oh so let’s go ahead and talk about the psycho first actually okay there’s a lot to say about it I mean you know the reality is this is our first introduction to the psyche or and I don’t mean Talia commercial telepaths I mean the real psyche or yeah the more powerful ones what’s happening on the inside psyche or you know we see we see that through through the perspective of the psych ops and there let’s just shall we say the rules that Talia has to keep as far as digging into people’s minds they’ve got a little bit more leeway in that regard or they they at least they take more leeway they don’t seem they don’t seem to have a rulebook other than what is good for them is good for everybody yeah the ten commandments are more like the ten that suggestions yeah but you can see they have quite a bit of power going on especially when Jason explains what the Sitecore had done to him and what they were attempting to do exactly in fact you know as he’s as he pointed out the cores dedicated to control not just control of telepaths but control of everything he points out that the psycorps that’s really pulling the strings on earth and that they have their own agenda yes and as all this is revealed one of the things that I think is important to note that this is where we first see Talia’s doubts about the core remember when she was talking to a vine of a you know earlier in this series mm-hmm she was very positive very up-and-up very chipper about the core and all the good it does and you know yes a vine of his experience had to be an accident or a footnote or just a very very rare exception yeah and exactly now she starts to see a little bit of a Susan side yeah at least the surface Tahlia at least the surface talia i’m going to make sure we stay a far away from that discussion for this okay I know I know where I know we’re open to having spoilers but it’s that that’s when I want a hat that’s when I want to hang on hang on for because I do know there are some people listening who haven’t watched how what else do we learn about psyche or telepathy here well they they can communicate with each other through telepathy they can also communicate to non telepaths p-12 yeah if you’re a p12 it’s not every telepath that can do that yeah because when Bester and Kelsey first came on the station they went to the security guy and thought to him what they wanted they didn’t even nobody spoke out loud except for the mundane as they call them and then and then as he as Bester walked into Sinclair’s office he communicate communicated to him to let telepathically and then later on he read Garibaldi’s mind as they passed by now I know you you had mentioned that is one of your dis likes about the way was used or not used or was used or not used in some of the situation’s I think I I think to some degree they’re doing that as especially just coming out of the station yeah more than anything else to make an impression the fear factor one of the things that the Sai cops use and use effectively is fear and we actually see that further down the road remember there’s a point in the future where Bester is interrogating someone mm-hmm and he’s just pretending that he’s actually scanning him and when garibaldi confronts him on it he actually comments about how he was just playing the guy’s fears yes so I think I think there’s definitely a part of that and then there’s other cases where we see telepaths sending messages or sending triggers to non telepath minds as well mm-hmm at least more powerful telepaths Julian’s doing such well and then there was there was the scene where Bester and Kelsey scanned Talia to find out if she had had any contact with ironheart recently what a well-played scene that was yeah actually the part I love the most about it was the way the scene ended it was Susan that ran to Talia’s aid mm-hmm she was the one that got her helped her gave her water and it wasn’t an accident Straczynski did that intentionally mm-hmm so he’s laying the initial groundwork for that friendship to eventually bloom yes and then as usual he’s kicks Susan and the gut yeah Susan’s lying oh my gosh regarding the calculated risks oh yeah so what do you what do you do for pleasure juggle babies over fire pit oops there goes another calculated risk yes you know I was actually looking for audio of that one and I couldn’t find it that that counts as a vine of a quote of the day the ivana visible for this episode other things we’ve learned about telepaths is that it’s constant background noise as far as telepaths in the general public it’s like being in a crowded room hearing everyone talk but inside your head and part of the training is to learn to not pay attention to that yeah can you imagine how that would be no it would it would be maddening no but you know I guess a person could get used to it I’ve been in situations at parties where there’s large crowds where I’m talking to somebody sitting directly across from me lots of background noise but I still focus on what they’re saying and it comes through just very well a person can do it the way I imagine it is you know someone who had been deaf you know the cases where they’re able to repair it with electronically mm-hmm it’s like that person who had been deaf and can suddenly hear again and you know this case definitely cases of those people having psychological problems just from being overwhelmed by the sensory input yes so I get in one regard I guess they’ve always had it so they wouldn’t know what the silence is like mmm true now one thing though they learned to black a lot of that out what they don’t necessarily have a reflex ability to black out are some of the really strong emotions of really strong thoughts we get one we get one very interesting demonstration of that in the lift tube yeah yeah I think that was one of something that you admit I’ll go ahead and let you relate that story yeah Talia and her client get into the the lift tube and garibaldi happens to be in there already and he’s standing behind Talia and admiring her heinie she picks up which has been a running gag all season yeah and and she picks up on it and gives him a pretty good elbow in the gut and yeah walks out and Garibaldi comes halfway out of the elevator and says I think I’m in love now you do know the two ended up married for a short while oh no kidding yes yes I did not know that yeah Andrea Thompson and and Jerry Doyle were married it didn’t last very long but but they did but they didn’t end up married and I think another spot where we see that strong emotion I don’t know if that was just best or being best her or if Garibaldi was just thinking it so strongly because I mean it it was a case of almost hate at first sight between those two oh yeah I don’t think Bester would have had to try very hard to find out what Garibaldi was thinking yeah he may not have necessarily been eavesdropping because Garibaldi’s opinion was so strong yeah but the line anatomically impossible mr. careful that doesn’t it defines the relationship mm-hmm it really defines the relationship I will say this though obviously what they’re working on is a classified project not just within the psyche or but in general yes an despite of that throughout the episode you know the side cops are actually being rather upfront about the whole thing they’re telling as much they’re telling as much as they can I mean bastard does come clean with more details for Sinclair when he’s comin Sinclair confronts him on it obviously he’s gonna spin it to make the core look its best right but the real thing the the really thick thing about it is they’re just so darn nasty and unpleasant about what they reveal whether you let out that there’s definitely that arrogant superiority in their attitudes well as I mentioned earlier and of course this comes out later later in a series more or less but they think of the non telepaths as mundanes uh-huh they’re not there there’s nothing special about people who are not telepathic they really don’t count for very much they’re just fodder to be moved around on the chessboard more or less the mundanes are being evolved out yeah and yeah that absolutely is something that will be seen and exploiting a a lot more especially in season four yeah great Kwasi that story comes to that hey there and it also is a part of season five mm-hmm one of the more criticized parts of season five but still a big part of season five well and then there’s the Norn dilemma and the Norn dilemma which we’ve already been introduced to yes it’s sort of the excuse for Shekhar’s peculiar taste in human women I think was how it was phrased once yes now what is bringing the Cyclops to Babylon 5 in this case I think we’ve already mentioned the name Jason hi ernhardt a couple of times yes and who is being who is being portrayed as a rogue telepath someone who is a secondly true to Hanley true yeah and is a dangerous person but not technically true right all that is technically true but for all these reasons he was created by the psycorps so in my mind at least they’re they’re doing more of a cover-up job here than anything else right Jason ironheart was Talia’s trainer he was originally a p10 and he transferred to the military for a special project yes now when they say the military they’re not necessarily telling us whether it’s strictly standard military or if it’s psych or unit of the military never force Versailles Korea right because you know like black Omega squadron that was the psycorps covert military unit will be seen Bester a few times in a black omega star fury yes but yeah they are trying to militarize telepathy and to create a stable telekinetic and the reason that iron heart went along with this is because he thought they wanted him to help with large construction projects right and actually what they didn’t want is the they didn’t care about the macro telekinesis abilities but the micro telekinesis abilities yes that’s that’s right you know everything else i’ve seen with any sort of telekinesis whether it’s sci-fi and you’re talking psionic capabilities or if you’re you know our star wars the force or if you’re talking magic in the fantasy genres they’re always shoveling around big stuff darth vader’s throwing big pipes at Luke oh yeah well for crying out loud Yoda pulled the that whole x-wing right out of the swamp out of the swamp I love the way Straczynski takes this approach to no that’s not the real danger of telekinesis yeah in crowded artery yeah it’s very scary when you think about it on you know telekinesis on an male on a molecular or an even atomic level would be you know and it would be the perfect crime and in Jason’s case they just succeeded so far beyond any imagined hope of success I mean he wasn’t just in control of matter he could control energy yeah and quite possibly time also you know I I remember I remember having heard that mentioned or theorized but we well that’s something we’ll never get the answer for no basically now Straczynski made it real clear ironheart would never be back right so much just too much power I mean basically how do I put it I guess Daniel Jackson wasn’t the first human to ascend yeah his become mean yeah that’s sorry that that folks that was one of my and that’s the part that annoyed me about Jason who is you know huh me ya know Straczynski said he didn’t want anyone else like Jason he said Jason ironheart will not be seen again insofar as I know I don’t like beings with that much power running around the plot line exactly exactly it wasn’t necessary though it’s interesting he his gift to Callie Oh what we see initially is the telekinesis but it’s more its it’s much more as she’s no longer just to p5 that much is clear and it’ll become more clear as we progress through the season now this brings into this brings up a question in my mind okay we know what happens with Talia down the road correct was she already pre-programmed before she was a student of Jason ironheart well in this case we got you got to remember this was one of fast Rosinski strapped doors she had left she had left the series and much of the Talia story is moved to Leda when pat Tallman returns because Pat became available uh-huh okay so it fits it fits very well I haven’t seen any comment on Straczynski as far as when that would have happened I would guess and this is pure speculation on my part and fans if you know a detail if you know specific please let us know and we’ll include it on one of our feedback episodes yeah but my my theory on this is that she would have been programmed prior to being assigned to Babylon 5 okay after her training and you know what I’m thinking about this in retrospect oh my I’m gonna have to I may have to dig some of my I’m gonna have to dig some of my comics out of storage there there might have been something in the comics about this but I am honestly not sure on this one Jason ironheart okay like I said he’s the one who trained Talia he’s the one that they had militarized basically right and then he got more powerful than anybody expected and began to transfigure and become become which gets kind gets back to my little Stargate you know actually that needs to be corrected stargates ascended beings were more Babylon 5 ish than the other way around because Babylon 5 predated them by quite a few years okay now yeah you’re way off base with me I had no idea what happened and I’ve never watched Stargate alright folks this is a Babylon 5 show but I’ve got to throw in a pitch for Stargate I hated the movie I poo pood the series for years and years and years it wasn’t I wasn’t going to waste my time on a series based on a movie that that that I thought was that poor the movie is not like the series the series is great and I did I did a summer binge watch or actually a wit I did a winter binge watch of sg-1 and I’m wrapping up Atlantis now but like you said he is become mean and you know I guess I guess the part that it annoys me about Jason not the actor but the character is he’s just a little bit on the drama-queen side yeah I would I would have to agree he I it was it was not an accident Anthea and that’s my wife folks and she’s our vote the voice of the voice of our show so to speak Anthea put it this way he is exactly Talia’s type okay amen oh it makes sense cuz Thalia Thalia can I love the character but there’s times that she could drift into a little bit of dramatics herself yes that’s very true I don’t know the the character Jason was well acted and I’m sure he acted it the way it was written because nobody else would have nobody would have allowed it not to be but it was like oh hey I know you remember you remember lon chaney Lon Chaney jr. is the Wolfman uh-huh who would go into the end of the jail and please lock me up plea oh please lock me up you’re not gonna like what’s gonna happen you know it was very melodramatic I guess that’s a word I’m looking for melodramatic exactly but it’s the way it’s written yeah frankly you you you you’ve heard me complain but the reality is this episode would not have been as good any other way okay if he was mr. tough guy if he if he came in more if he came in feeling more like mace windu than Skywalker yeah that would’ve never that would never have worked it would never afford to know that’s played it was played the way it was supposed to be I guess as you said the the becoming what what are we before we find out we actually do find out okay finale of season four okay that’s where we see that’s where we see humans in an encounter suit in a million years okay so it just took a million years for the rest of us to catch up with him basically I just never made that connection leave the body behind become energy I’m glad I have you to do the heavy lifting oh no no that’s that’s believe me a quick history quick history here Babylon 5 and I we mentioned this probably in the gathering discussion maybe but I know we mentioned it in the sci-fi diner hijack one of the things that was really unique about Babylon 5 was the extent and degree to which the creators and the writers and even the actors were accessible to the fans mm-hmm and it’s it’s not hard is not that hard to make the jump when you you know when you’re sitting I your Fermi you remember what you actually still around you remember you snit by chance I remember hearing about it but I didn’t have much to do with it they think of it as a distributed shared discussion board and Rec dot Arts T V dot Babylon 5 and rect at arts that TV that Babylon 5 dot moderated and that’s the one Straczynski spent a lot of time on oh well he actually originally did a lot of on the old genie service originally but yeah you pick there’s a lot of those little details that come out that would get popped out there yeah and of course there’s the classic lurkers guide to babylon 5 which was really the first sight of its kind mm-hmm for fan shows if you were following along on those venues is sight not that big of a deal to check out the only amazing thing is is you you have this knack of tossing out those little key words that trigger a memory in my head from 20 years ago anyway and after enough reminiscing yes ironheart in the militarization here one of the things that always and this is getting and if you don’t mind me jumping ahead to one of my dislikes one in 1,000 humans are teeps telepaths one in 10,000 of the telepaths are telekinetics alright at least where telepaths are concerned and this is I actually would almost call this a plot hole that means you’re talking about 6 million telepaths well that’s a lot of telepaths well let’s think about this now they didn’t say at what levels the telepaths would be if you recall for instance the demons Ivanovitch mother Yvonne Ava’s mother was not a strong telepath but she was strong enough that she either had to go to psych or or she had to take the drugs to suppress her abilities okay so and then if you think about we have almost 7 billion people on 7 billion with ABI people on this planet now okay what is the population of the galaxy going to be for humans at that time okay let’s finalist me at 10 billion but that’s still an awful I mean yeah it’s distributed or swatted down across the population but that’s still a lot of telepaths yeah I think it’s plausible actually that’s also somewhere between 300 and 600 saying telekinetics mmm-hmm if they were if they were trying that hard to make a stable telekinetic you would have thought they would have worked through some of those hmm and remember psycorps has a fairly aggressive breeding program non-voluntary breeding program I might add so it just is a plot hole or is this something being done in addition to for something like Babylon 5 you would expect there to be a lot more than one telepath there just at that ratio yeah depending on what quarter of a million yeah depending on what levels we’re talking anyway I I don’t want to I don’t want to nitpick I don’t want to nitpick on something that’s really a like I said one of the great episodes anything else on the psyche or or ironheart before we turn to the other part of this story not anymore no I think we’ve covered that except that a punching in the jar is a good way to distract a telepath yeah well yeah I know wait a minute we did we did have something that it was interesting that they and implanted in ironheart code a shutdown code yes down code and they were trying to use that on him and they underestimated his powers drastically underestimated yeah thinking that they would be able to get line-of-sight and shut him down but he had just become way too powerful at that point he had pretty much taken out Kelsey and his struggle was to not take out Bester and or blow up the entire station as a whole in the process the whole station so it wasn’t a matter of it wasn’t a matter of gee can we shut him down it was more a matter of how do I limit the damage from what they’re trying to do yeah oh one more thing one one one more thing there was something from one of Joe Straczynski favorite shows that became sort of a trademark of Bester’s we can’t forget the and it is one of my favorite shows it was the little salute that Bester gave and be seen seeing you however okay when Patrick McGoohan did that on the prisoner he would put he would put his forefinger and thumb together in front of his I be seeing you Bester put it next to his temple and said be seeing you and so that that was a that was a little more sinister in that case then I get it yeah I honestly didn’t remember that he it has been 30 years since I’ve seen the prisoner oh I watched it a summer shamefully I’ve never seen the entire series beginning to end it’s interesting it’s bizarre it’s out there it’s but yes there was always that be seeing you that that was very much that was very much a tip to the prisoner that apparently anyone who knows that show couldn’t miss oh yeah I caught that immediately we couldn’t go through with that we couldn’t go through without mentioning that no the second part of the story I think was as good as the first and it really had one of the most moving moments for me yet it one of the most dramatic moments well and that was the whole sigma 957 yeah and is abbreviated as it was it had a lot of impact great deal of impact what’s good as we see that Catherine is moving up in the world yeah her big hit from a few episodes ago has paid off she’s now getting a contract from Universal terraform one of the mega core you know to go out and do a survey yeah to get materials to build jump gates and in this case there’s a possible planet near sigma 957 the problem is the non built that jump gate and though the Regents considered contested according to JMS the Narns technically have first rights you need their permission to go and poach on that planet yes but but but the Narns know that something there is going on and it may be dangerous according to jakar as he puts it sigma 957 as a strange place and we learned much more about that in season 3 and season 4 mm-hmm and as you said he called for a military response to Sakai admission yes so that actually raised one of the huge questions for the show and that was who are the walkers of 9:57 you know he referred to them as those who walk there they they became known as the walkers of nine sigma 957 mm-hmm actually at one point I remember even a question being that thing that showed up yeah whatever whatever it was it was big was that just a ship or was that an entity you know when they first showed it at the very first glimpse of that it resembled shadow technology which we haven’t hadn’t been introduced to yet right but it did it looked like it had the the tendrils of a shadow vessel now I’m not saying that they were shadows oh no and we think we find out that’s not the case at all but but they they definitely gave me the impression that they had the ship was bio technologically engineered yeah it seemed clear there was I mean it looked like some sort of organic technology mm-hmm but was the ship wasn’t a ship or was it just some sort of organic entity that thrived the space and obviously we kind of slipped it there referring to it as a ship we do find out yeah we do find out exactly what they are but that’s season 3 and season 4 a little little further down the road but Katherine doesn’t know what it is no and nor does Jack our know and Jack our eloquently explains to Katherine what has gone what in his mind is happening and I think that’s probably that that’s probably one of the most powerful moments of the episode and okay this is one this is a case where I’m not even going to try and quote it Andris Catullus is an amazing actor oh yeah and this quote of his the this quote can only be done best by him so folks give you a chance to listen ambassador while I was out there I saw something what was it what is this hey aunt aunt so much gets shipped up from Earth on commercial transports it’s hard to keep them out yeah I have just picked it up on the tip of my glove if I put it down again and it asks another aunt what was that how would it explain there are things in the universe billions of years older than either of our races they are vast timeless and if they are aware of us at all it is as little more than ants and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us we know we’ve tried and we’ve learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on that’s it that’s all you know yes they’re a mystery and I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe that we have not yet explained everything whatever they are miss Sakai they walked near Sigma 95.7 they must walk there [Music] Hatta that English horn solo play happy would have killed me if I did this but and then it closes with that close up of an of the ant on that flower mm-hmm that just that that was beautiful acting yes it was beautiful cinematography mm-hmm and it really gives you a glimpse of the true power and the true depth of the story yeah of what’s coming and how thoughtful Jakara actually can be and it you know I’m gonna go out on a limb here in some ways this is our first true introduction to Jack our alright go along we we get away from some of the pettiness we get away from the comic interactions between him and Londo mm-hmm and we see some amazing depth of character mm-hmm now we’re gonna get plenty of the other as well but this this is the first tenth of where the characters really going I think yeah he gets very deep yeah folks this is one where I would really love to get some feedback or some thoughts on this really is one of my favorite and the the you’re gonna probably hear me say this more than once but this is one of my favorite spots this is one of the pieces of season one that really moved me mm-hmm any particular other likes or thoughts that you want to bring up well I’ll tell you what one one another question I had was when Jason has his second mind quake Kells e-cell says out loud the best ur mind quake and if if revealing what’s going on with Iron Heart is supposed to be so much of a secret why would they say something like that out loud why not think it to each nobody else in the area would pick it up except for ironheart Natalia I think that goes back to my theory originally it takes more effort to communicate directly telepathically and I’m just hypothesizing I’m just coming up with almost you know reckoning reasons why mm-hmm yeah I think the I think some of the initial telepathic conversation was more of making an impression for example and let’s face it we’ve been talking thousands and thousands of years longer than we’ve been thinking thoughts to each other oh yeah then of course is the absolutely dead practical fact of well they might be able to talk mind to mind but you and I wouldn’t be able to hear them yeah that’s very true we wouldn’t know what they were talking about and you know that voiceover shtick that you see in all the other sci-fi on the you know thinking back on this I am so glad they didn’t do that when the telepaths were talking to each other talking to the people you didn’t hear some voiceover of what they were what they were saying to the other character yeah it was nothing yeah and you had to imply what they were saying by the other person’s response right that that that telepaths dick has just been I think too overdone in the genre so in that respect I’m glad they didn’t okay go along with that that’s just that that’s just my own reckoning hypothesizing there and one thing else that I do would like to sit were nearing the wrap-up Straczynski Keys comments there’s one comment that I really liked in my prep regarding my favorite thing about this episode it’s that when all is said and done nobody knows anything Bester doesn’t know what iron heart is turning into Sinclair doesn’t know if iron heart was really telling the truth or not nobody knows where iron heart went nobody knows what the alien ship is who they were the closest I can come to is to compare it with writing a mystery novel without revealing the killer but without frustrating anyone in the process because there is closure mm-hmm that’s according to Straczynski and you know what he’s right yeah well it reinforces what jakar says that nobody is what they seem and we don’t know what they are yet and everything’s that and there’s a Miss and there’s mysteries out there yes and that’s both reason to be afraid and reason to have hope now one more thing something to watch for and if you haven’t seen this you might want to go back and look at it again okay watch for Bester’s left hand okay watch for Bester’s left hand I’ve been beating myself over the head with this now all afternoon trying to rattle my brain and figure out what it is you mean now I know you’re not gonna tell me that is the only thing I’m gonna say about it I’m not answering this tonight in fact I’m not gonna answer this one I’m gonna leave this for our fans to answer and if you don’t have it figured out tonight I’ll bring it up again the next time we have Bester on okay watch his left hand and if anyone could tell me the back story send in your answer it’ll definitely make the top of the feedback episode well I’ll have to go back and look at that and see if I can pick up on it uh-huh well Jim I think we’ve got this one pretty well wrapped I believe you’re right so if they want to get hold of us what do you think that what’s the best way well mmm my answer to that would be Facebook would be really good are Babylon project podcast page on Facebook you can friend us there get right on email yeah you can send us email at the Babylon project podcast at gmail.com or you can even feed back to us on our WordPress page the Babylon project podcast wordpress.com and as far as the email is concerned and the you can send us typed or you can send us mp3 actually consider that’s pretty much any format you want i have the tools to decode just about anything yeah so voice feedback is just as welcome as written feedback and i mentioned it a little bit earlier but what we’ll do with the feedback is probably just collect them together from the various sources into a feedback episode mm-hmm so we really do want your voices to be heard not just to let us know how good or how bad we’re doing but also to share with the rest of the battle on fire phantom yeah we don’t know everything we would love input absolutely absolutely which is probably my big overused word well Jim I think we’ve got a wrap yeah did we have a boom today no boom today boom tomorrow there always seems to be Holly tomorrow doesn’t there yep good night folks all right good night podcast terminated thank you for listening to the Babylon project podcast you can email Raoul and Jim at the Babylon project podcast at gmail.com you can find us on Facebook at the Babylon project podcast on the internet we are at Babylon project podcast dot wordpress.com to subscribe to the podcast you can find us on iTunes or you can subscribe to the RSS feed on the web page [Music]