B5 vs Star Trek #1

Babylon 5 Vs Star Trek Folder # 1
—————————————–
Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-05 23:43:45 EDT
From: UCASteel
Posted on: America Online

Actually, the characters in B5, while good, propably are not accurate depiction of humans 300 years from now either. The trut is that they are too 20th century. We are alot different that the people in 1696. In fact our society has changed alot since 1966. Our social structures have changed, and we are alot more tolerant of certain aspects of our lives. The charactes in Star Trek are far from perfect, they to make mistakes. All that star Trek shows is that humans will finally have learned to get along with each other. It makes since, in ST’s world of the 24 century, there are many more people to have problems with. In Star Trek there is a sense of human pride that is really lacking on B5. Even on Star Trek humans have not been perfect. There have been conspiracies to sabotage or take over the Federation (Star Trek 6, and DS9). Like wise there are human freedom fighters like tha Maquis (TNG, DS9,Voyager) Voyage is proof that ST humans a far from perfect, That crew screws up all the time.

B5 humans are far to contemporary. I find it hard to believe that in 2260 people will still be wearing jeans and baseball caps. We do not wear what people wore 300 years ago, why would they. We do not use the same entertainment forms as people did in the 17th century wyh would people in the 23rd use ours. Even some of the weapons have not changed. A PPT is a glorified pistol. Science has told us that it is possible to have a high powered forced energy weapon (lazer/phaser) why haven’t the humans of B5 utilized this tech.

Subj: Re: Archer re: technobabble
Date: 96-06-06 00:46:57 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Archer, I couldn’t agree more. Just watched “Turnabout Intruder” again and like “City on the Edge of Forever” it just proves what a good show it was without the technobabble. Just a good story and good characters.

The one good thing that can be said for time travel on B5 — they didn’t even attempt to explain how it was done. That’s my argument with ST’s technobabble: If it’s so outlandish a concept, concentrate on telling me a story, don’t waste time explaining it in terms that mean nothing.

I still contend, however, that they created a closed loop in WWE2, and once Sinclair goes back in time, the future stops and the story loops around again beginning 900 years ago. The only way I can see to rectify the situation is if Sinclair somehow travels forward again. Didn’t the voice-over for the first season say he was the last commander of Babylon 5? (And now, back to the videotape…). Can’t say I wouldn’t mind, JMS.

Sher

Subj: Characters in B5
Date: 96-06-06 03:31:55 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online
I just read UCASteel’s post about characters in B5 being too 20th Century, and althougth I love B5 more than any other show, I tend to agree.
But if you are going to portay an honest projection of what the future society would be you’ll probably SHOCK the TV audience. How about a 18 th Century gentleman watching today’s cable TV would react?
How about if he watches the Playboy channel? Or MTV’s Beavis and Butt Head? Or Ophra, or Gerardo’s show with “Biker midgets transvestis wich realize human sacrifice? Or even Cops?
I love Star Trek, but I don’t really think future society will develop in Roddenberry’s Utopia. A quick look at today’s news is enough.

B5’s characters are too 20th Century, that’s true, but at least they’re human, they are dominated by the same passions, fears and hopes that dominated mankind throughout history.
I would value any comments you guys have on that.

Subj: Re: Uca Steel/ Tolerant?
Date: 96-06-06 03:46:12 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online
Dear UCA: In a previous file you wrote: >” Our social structures have changed, and we are alot more tolerant of certain aspects of our lives.”<

I’m afraid I disagree:
1) Inmigrant bashing: Proposition 187 passed overwhelmingly denying school and medical care to Inmigrant kids so they can go back to the streets and join street gangs.
2)Hate crimes are on the rise
3)Paramilitary groups are arming and commiting terrorist acts inside our own country

I would really love to see Gene Roddenberry’s vision come true, but sadly, mankind will never change.
Thanks anyway for your comments.

Subj: Tolerance
Date: 96-06-06 10:38:17 EDT
From: UCASteel
Posted on: America Online

Actually I said that we are more tolerant that our ancestors of 300 years ago. That is not to say that we are as utopian as GR description. Besides, Star Trek creates a vision to aspire to, and a creates a hope that someday perhaps we can be like that. I think that if we lived in a world with extraterrestial beings, we probably would. Why, because knowing human nature, we would join together to distrust and descriminate against nonhumans…Like in Alien Nation

Subj: Re: Uca Steel/ Tolerant?
Date: 96-06-06 13:04:44 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“1) Inmigrant bashing: Proposition 187 passed overwhelmingly denying school and medical care to Inmigrant kids so they can go back to the streets and join street gangs.
2)Hate crimes are on the rise
3)Paramilitary groups are arming and commiting terrorist acts inside our own country”

1) That propersition was for ILLIGAL aliens. The people of California are tired of supporting people who come over here for a free ride and the used a legal, nonviolent, way of expressing this. I don’t know if denying medical attention is right or wrong in this case, although, I do know it is easier for an illigal to get it than it is for me, a NATIVE American, and that is wrong. However, the way that first point is worded is misleading, to say the least.

2) Crime is crime, regardless of motive. I submit that it is just as bad, if not worse, for a person to assulted for money as it is if the motive is racial. Quite honestly, I resent the fact that so-called biased crimes are punished at a higher degree than other crime. That’t not to mention the double standard where if a black gets beat up by a white it is a bias crime and if a white gets beat up by a black it is just a simple assualt, if even that, regardless of the circumstance.

3)This may well be true, however, is it a cause or an effect?

Subj: Re:Characters in B5
Date: 96-06-06 13:25:51 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<B5’s characters are too 20th Century, that’s true, but at least they’re human, they are dominated by the same passions, fears and hopes that dominated mankind throughout history.
I would value any comments you guys have on that.>

Which could also be said about ST:TOS, since Kirk was as 20th century as a man could be. So was the rest the crew, 20th century people projected forward into the future. And really when you get right down to it, the crews of the current Trek are also people of our time (in terms of attititudes) in a supposedly (and unconvincingly) utopian future. Actually, saying the characters act too much like late-20th century people is a “complaint” that applies to all movies and TV set in the future and the past. We always portray other times viewed through the prism of our own era. This applies to Star Trek, B5, Star Wars, Space: Above and Beyond and even Lost in Space.

As for the idea that B5’s characters’ dress is too contemporary, I counter that most TV attempts to portray really futuristic uniforms wind up looking ridiculous (I think the first two years of TNG were a pretty good example). IMHO, basic everyday clothing has not changed that drastically since the end of the last century, if not earlier. Sure, what is “fashionable” changes with the tides, but has the basic men’s business suit changed that radically since 1900?. The details have changed, but the basic silohuette Women’s clothing has changed more radically this century, but I think that has been a result of women’s improved station in life (i.e. women’s clothes have come more into line with mens in terms of being practical). In short the trend has been from lavish to utilitarian, and everyday clothes in 1996 are about as plain and unadorned as they are going to get. I think it is very believable that our decendants won’t dress that much differently from us.

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-06 13:44:47 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<Even some of the weapons have not changed. A PPT is a glorified pistol. Science has told us that it is possible to have a high powered forced energy weapon (lazer/phaser) why haven’t the humans of B5 utilized this tech.>

Well, science has told us that it is possible, but it hasn’t suggested a way to reduce a sufficient power supply to the size of a pistol, along with the cryogenics necessary to keep a laser that powerful cool. Nor has it shown how a laser would be more efficient personal weapon. B5 posulates that 300 years of technology have not solved these problems. Fair enough. B5 does use lasers, but only on large vessels (Omega-class destroyers). According to B5-tech, apparently only such a large vessel can power an effective laser weapon.

The PP”G” is a bit more than a “glorified pistol,” shooting bursts of superhot helium plasma. This counts as sufficiently advanced technology to qualify as science fiction.

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-06 14:49:33 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

UCA Steel is pprobably right. But once and a while groups of people tend to stray back to old cultures, for example a few hippies actually exist in my school, although that may scare some of you. Besides JMS probably would prefer not to get the same hassle as Star Trek for being too Wierd because the people are so different. Also it is more attractive to younger audiences if they can understand what people are saying.

Subj: Re: Uca Steel/ Tolerant?
Date: 96-06-06 14:56:32 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Thank you Bobby, I would like to agree with you one hundred percent. If you look at our history we always manage to make asses of ourselves. Burning witches, massacering Natives so we could take their land, Spitting on vietnam Vets as they got off the planes after they had already been through hell. In WW2, humans, a small group of them, but needles to say still humans massacred Millions. There are thousands of examples, and would hate to discuss them all. But people are upset lately over recent revolutions, when we would not be here today if our revolution had not been bloody and destructive. So I would say people are people, good or bad.

Subj: Re:B5 VS Star Trek. ST
Date: 96-06-07 01:09:44 EDT
From: Dindy Doo
Posted on: America Online

Ditto. I was a Star Trek snob (except I hated the original series — far too sexist for me) and missed the first two seasons of B5. My sorrow grows the more I catch the show. I’ve missed soooo much fun. B5 definately has more character development and good ideas. Could use some interesting life forms that are non-human physique as temp characters…like a bar tender with four arms or a security guard with six eyes around it’s head or something. Now, when I watch DS9 or Voyager, they seem so boring. Also, do these shows seem to mostly having talking heads? Why don’t characters ever wave their hand when they talk — real people do! Everything seems static.

Subj: Re:B5 VS Star Trek. ST
Date: 96-06-07 11:51:47 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I know where that is coming from, especially when Jean dork Pick’s his butt get’s all dramatic. Does he not have any emotion or what?

Subj: Re:Tolerance
Date: 96-06-07 14:42:32 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online
Good point, UCA.

MALI402861

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-07 20:49:18 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>This is not really related to your message, but …Have you read Larry Niven’s book, “Protector”? It shows people ussing Bussard Ramjets to fight at near light-speed with relativistic effects and all that jazz…Try it…I think you’ll enjoy it<<

And you gotta try Footfall and Ringworld.

(I just finished Ringworld, btw, and *tanj* was that a fun book! Good luck, Teela..)

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-07 20:54:32 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

My favorite bit of overused technobabble that I’ve heard a few times:
“plasma gas”

(Someone else pointed this out earlier, but it’s the best example)

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 02:05:21 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I can’t remember who coined the actual term “Black Hole,” but I remember it was coined by a prominent physicist long before Hawking and Roger Penrose began their seminal works on the subject — possibly by John Wheeler or one of his associates at Princeton in the 50’s. >>

The term was coined in the late 1960’s by Kip Thorne of Caltech working with a Russian scientist (whose name, I am embarrassed to say, slips my mind at the moment). The term used in Star Trek was different — something like “dark star” as I recall. But the concept HAD been around a while. The concept was described by English astronomer John Michell as early as 1783. In the 60’s, Thorne was working on the theoretical implications of gravitational collapse: what can you say about a black hole — basically, not much except for its mass, angular momentum, charge, and little else. The entire concept of the “event horizon” — the radius within which even light cannot escape — was central to this work.

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 02:10:00 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< (I just finished Ringworld, btw, and *tanj* was that a fun book! Good luck, Teela..) >>

It’s not as if Teela has a choice…

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 13:20:46 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< The term [Black Hole] was coined in the late 1960’s by Kip Thorne of Caltech working with a Russian scientist >>

Actually, we’re both partially wrong and partially right. I looked this up in one of Kip Thorne’s books, and he indicates that the term “Black Hole” was coined by John Wheeler (as I indicated) in a series of lectures in 1967 (i.e. the 60’s, not the 50’s, as, you were right to correct me).

Subj: Hello
Date: 96-06-08 14:06:34 EDT
From: StarWarMen
Posted on: America Online

This is kinda weird. We’ve got the Trek Captains Better board, the B5 Ties to Trek board (Or something like that) and now we have the B5 vs. Star Trek board. I just think thats kinda funny.
J2

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 16:42:51 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

(>><< (I just finished Ringworld, btw, and *tanj* was that a fun book! Good luck, Teela..) >>

It’s not as if Teela has a choice…<<

Sorry, Teela doesn’t have a choice anymore, she changed into a Protector (With no free will) in “The Ringworld Engineers” by Larry Niven.

Subj: B5 vs. ST: ENJOY
Date: 96-06-08 17:42:11 EDT
From: JHutchi729
Posted on: America Online

While I’ve been a longtime Trekker, I did join B5 during its’ second season. I think that B5 is a very good program and the second season was great! The third season so far is a bit uneven but, does have some great episodes. I am somewhat patiently waiting for TNT to pick up the show’s first season.
Despite all of this I prefer DS9 because its’ writing is much more consistantly well done. Yet, despite which show one thinks is of better quality, it doesn’t justify all of the vicious insults and comparisons that go on. The same thing happens on Prodigy.
As far as B5 being more realistic than ST in regards to the future of mankind, I cannot agree.
If one is referring to the possibility of a galactic newspaper existing or the existance of malls in the 23rd century I will not debate you there. It is quite possible that they might exist. Although I feel that with technology increasing in sophistication very rapidly all the time it may not be necessary to have a newspaper. I’m also not a big fan of malls either but, I never have and the existance of one is irrelevant.
Much more importantly, however; is that in B5 one sees the existance of racism, poverty, government conspiracy by people how have their own selfish agenda’s that lead to a civil war and perhaps other things as well that I have not heard about. In ST one does not see that existing in the Federation. Gene Roddenberry is sometimes accused of being an idealist. To a certain extent he was but, his view of the future is more than that. In order for humanity as a species to become a space faring culture we must be able to get along with ourselves first. We must put behind us our petty prejudices and agenda’s in order to put together a planet wide effort to reach for the stars permanently.
Now B5’s future setting does allow for the telling of some very dramatic moments and the discussion of some very important issues but it is not a more realistic view of the future. It simply can’t be. If one looks at the world around us one will see all the prejudices that exist over race, religion, nationalities, etc… How are we to work together in space if we can’t get along on Earth.
If not we will have nations putting different stations in space and all our prejudices will come with us. Competition will rule, competition of a deadly kind. We will be divided and a species divided is weaker than one that is united.

JHutchi729
Subj: Re:Hello
Date: 96-06-08 19:01:22 EDT
From: REBinAZ
Posted on: America Online

J2,
This is an old folder and just for fun.
Although some people haven’t realized that and truly think B5 and ST are REAL.
heehee ;-)>
Now that’s funny.
Ro

Subj: Re:Hello
Date: 96-06-08 20:19:35 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“Although some people haven’t realized that and truly think B5 and ST are REAL”

You mean they are not?

I am so disapointed.

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 21:09:05 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>It’s not as if Teela has a choice…<<

It’s just genetics then. Boy she was lucky to get those genes!

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 21:11:38 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Sorry, Teela doesn’t have a choice anymore, she changed into a Protector (With no free will) in “The Ringworld Engineers” by Larry Niven.<<

But you can’t say that it was her bad luck…
Gee, and I was just starting to read it… I guess I’ll have to procrastinate and read some short stories instead…

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-08 23:12:37 EDT
From: Dr 4D
Posted on: America Online

I have never had a problem with the technobabble od ST shows (although I must admit that if I hear the work tachyon one more time I may throw-up <g>). The only complaint that I have is that it can become a cover for poor stroy telling. It is far too easy for a bit of technobable in the form a doubble-talk generater wipped together by Jordy, O’Brian, Scotty, Tores, ot any other engeneer of your choice, to become a Deus-Ex-Machine (SP?). I haven’t spotted this yet in B5, although in all honesty I was not looking for it. A sufficiently well written story, as was pointed out several posts up-stream, has no need of such plot devices (is that a pun, if so it’s terrible and I appologize). Here’s to hoping that the excellent story telling in the B5 and ST universes both goes.

Dr. 4D

Subj: B5 4th season
Date: 96-06-08 23:17:25 EDT
From: Dr 4D
Posted on: America Online

All,

Just saw on the web (lurkers guide) that JMS anounced in London today that B5 has been renewed for a 4th year. <VGB> YEAH!!!!!!

Dr. 4D

Subj: Re:B5 4th season
Date: 96-06-09 02:37:32 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<Just saw on the web (lurkers guide) that JMS anounced in London today that B5 has been renewed for a 4th year. <VGB> YEAH!!!!!!>

Let’s get to work on Season 5 now.

Subj: Re:Hello
Date: 96-06-09 03:22:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<“Although some people haven’t realized that and truly think B5 and ST are REAL”
You mean they are not?
I am so disapointed.>>
Well, I don’t think we can make that judgment YET. (Well, okay, about Trek, but only because no one named Khan has started a world war this year)

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-09 10:36:54 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“I haven’t spotted this yet in B5, although in all honesty I was not looking for it.”

You are not likely to find it, either. The people on B5 are for the most part military officers and diplomats, not techniceans. This means that most of the technical talk revolves around military stratagy, and the technical devices are just tools of the trade. All they need to know is how to use them, not how they work. For an example, remember a scene on the White Star where Sheridan asks Lenier if the ship can do something or the other. After a somewhat long technical explaination Sheridan turned around to him and said “a simple yes or no would have sufficed.” He wasn’t interested in how it can be done, only if it can be done. This is very much in character. In the original Star Trek Kirk was a lot like that. Spock or Scotty would go into a spiel and Kirk would just say, fine, do it. Or that he needs warp power now, or something like that.

Subj: Re:JMS: No Technobabble!
Date: 96-06-09 21:00:15 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Plasma Gas? Now that’s a controdiction in terms.

Subj: Re: B5 vs. Star Trek
Date: 96-06-09 23:26:55 EDT
From: PSLKabong
Posted on: America Online

I just think Bab 5 is so much more real than ST. I mean, B5 has money, greed (Not just in other races), political squabbles, and TV!!! The writers at ST want us to believe that mankind has abandoned money and all we do is sit around reading books all day (not that I don’t read). Also, B5 has more intrigue than ST. Don’t think I’m trashing ST, I like it, it’s just B5 is a lot better.

Subj: Star Trek is at it AGAIN!!!
Date: 96-06-10 16:47:37 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

First they ripoff the idea of a space station series from JMS (Deep Space 9.) Now our friends in the Star Trek universe are at it again! Get This;

Star Trek: Invasion
This four book series envolves an ancient war, in which the loser was banished. Now, they back to reclaim what is theirs. Does this seem familiar to you?!

Watching for signs of originallity in the Trek universe,
RONPEGT

Subj: Star Trek is at it again
Date: 96-06-10 17:34:09 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

This whole thing is sad. Nearly all of us know the story of JMS going to Paramount. But for those who don’t let me clue you in. In 88 JMS went to Paramount, actually he went to the Trek production team with the idea of B5. Rodennberry turned him down, so did Paramount, but Berman must have made notes. Now I jump ahead to 90, JMS with his vision looking to become real, starts to put together his team, and flesh out a few stories, for the Pilot movie, and several episodes. Over at Paramount, Berman slaps together, DS9, quick enough to air DS9 first. I had heard of B5 for a few years at this point hear and there. And for a little while had mistakenly took DS9 for B5, because it fit the description. I figured, JMS must have modified his story some. Then low, and behold B5 premeirs, and it didn’t take long for me to see DS9 was either an amazing coincedence (spelling) or a rip-off. JMS saw this two, but couldn’t sue Paramount because he lacked the money to take it to court.

I still consider myself a Trek fan, but first and foremost, I am a fan of originality, since my thoughts on the subject, had been confirmed. I have refused to watch DS9, considering it Plagerism.

RONPEGT

Subj: Re:Ckekjk/scrabt9347
Date: 96-06-10 18:14:54 EDT
From: SCrabt9347
Posted on: America Online

you go on about me making assumptions and then you make the ASSUMPTION that I need a shrink. you’re a lying hypocrite. i hpoe you enjoy making an idiot out of yourself over a national service you greentoother.
Subj: Re:Ckekjk/scrabt9347
Date: 96-06-10 18:21:04 EDT
From: SCrabt9347
Posted on: America Online

i don’t assume i know more than you, i know i know more than you so take out your false teeth put them in backwards and bite yourself you old social security grabbing knuckle dragger.
Subj: Re:B5 vs ST
Date: 96-06-10 18:22:51 EDT
From: SCrabt9347
Posted on: America Online

GET A LIFE

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-10 18:27:01 EDT
From: SCrabt9347
Posted on: America Online

you people cannot prove any of this but it is probably true

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-10 20:30:44 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I have refused to watch DS9, considering it Plagerism.>>

This is completely ridiculous. The only things that B5 and DS9 have in common is that they take place on a space station.

B5– Newest station of the earth alliance, UN in space.
DS9– An abandoned broke down mining station in the middle of no-where.
When doing a Sci-fi show, you have three main locations. A Spaceship, a spacestation, and a planet. ST had already had 2 spaceship shows, and a planet location is not as dramatic; whats left?
DS9 has no five-year arc, like B5.
Aside from the space station setting, what do they have in common.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-10 21:01:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

ACDec, Majel Roddenberry disagrees with you. “The B5 people say we stole their idea.” “Well, you did, didn’t you?”

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-10 23:41:32 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“Aside from the space station setting, what do they have in common.”

What they have in comon is a basic premise, as set forward by the first half year of so of B5, which is exactly what JMS would have in hand, along with some vague idea of an ongoing story, at the time he pitched B5 to Paramount and others. By the way, I do not think the ongoing story was vague in the mind of JMS, only in his pitch. Of course, I wasn’t there, I only know what I have read and a smattering of common sense.

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-11 13:55:12 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Damnit, they are just jealous, we got a better producer and writer, so they have to cheat to make a comeback.

Subj: Re:Ckekjk/scrabt9347
Date: 96-06-11 13:55:59 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Uhm, a greentoother, I think you need to get out more.

Subj: Re:Ckekjk/scrabt9347
Date: 96-06-11 13:57:10 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Hey dipshit, nice try but I have a long time to go before I’m on Social security, infact I’ll probably end up paying yours you idiot.

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-11 13:58:45 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

You dogs can’t prove that we can’t prove any of this so turn tail back to your kennal and lick up some sh** for breakfast SCrab!!!!!

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-11 16:31:23 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

CRC2001 I do not go into the pages your hang out at and insult you, I would the same courtesy from most human beings. Are you one?
RONPEGT
Subj: And also….
Date: 96-06-11 16:37:26 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

I would ask all of you reading this to take note. If you don’t like the show, and have nothing nice to say please, STAY OFF THIS PAGE!! We don’t want you here if you are so small minded as to belittle our show.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-11 21:11:02 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<What they have in comon is a basic premise,>>

And what is this basic premise that they share?

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-11 23:58:12 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“And what is this basic premise that they share?”

Very simply stated, a space station set in neutral neutral space bordering space occupied by different and potentially dangerous alien races. The theory is that the stories and drama will come to them in the form of visitors to the station and intereation between to crew. After that there are several obvious paralells, such as lower ranking officers in command and the worm whole appears to be strikingly similier to jump gates. There are more, but, they have been mentioned before. Coincidence? Perhaps. Personally, I doubt it. In my opinion, the only real coincidence is that they both recieved state of the art star ships to widen their scopes of operation. The reason I think this is a coincidence is that the ships were introduced for completly different reasons and they represent very different things in each of the shows.

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-12 12:55:17 EDT
From: REBinAZ
Posted on: America Online

In Hollywood, it is nothing new to steal ideas—as Roddenberry told it, ‘Lost In Space’ was
his and they ripped him off.
Now it’s JMS and Berman—that’s show business—swim with the sharks or be eaten by the
sharks.
Ro

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-13 00:45:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Very simply stated, a space station set in neutral neutral space bordering space occupied by different and potentially dangerous alien races. The theory is that the stories and drama will come to them in the form of visitors to the station and intereation between to crew.>>

DS9 is NOT in neutral space. It’s a BAJORAN station. Starfleet was sent there to help bring Bajor into the Fed. ANY series based on a spacestation will have the bad guys come to them. And any sci-fi show has diffrent and potentally dangerous alien races.

<< After that there are several obvious paralells, such as lower ranking officers in command and the worm whole appears to be strikingly similier to jump gates.>>

There is a commander in command on DS9 because it was not a very high priority mission. Captains command ships, not stations. If DS9 had been more important they would have sent an admiral. The only reason they did not replace Sisko was because he got the job done! How in the heck are jumpgates and wormholes similar. For one wormholes are theoretical objects while jump gates are completely made up. Jump gates are the “Warp Drive” of B5. The wormhole opens up into a completely unexplored part of the galaxy so that DS9 can have some new aliens to work with.

<< There are more, but, they have been mentioned before.>>

Why don’t you just post them so I can have a look at them.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-13 00:49:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<In Hollywood, it is nothing new to steal ideas—as Roddenberry told it, ‘Lost In Space’ was
his and they ripped him off.>>

You need to get your facts strait. “Lost in Space” was not his. The network was already going to make it, what they did do was queston Roddenberry extensively on how to make a Sci-Fi show w/ a small budget, they stole production techniques, not story ideas.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it again
Date: 96-06-13 06:09:10 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Ron,

The facts to my understanding was that Paramount already had DS9 under considerations, And that’s why they turned down jms. The fact that you think Paramount stole or ripped off the idea for B5 sounds like just sour grapes to me.

JJC III

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-13 06:17:18 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Ron,

Who died and left you in charge of everything? I like B5 very much, But if I have something to say about B5 be it positive or negative then I’m going to say it. DS9 is not in any way,shape, or form plagerising B5, Which you would know if you tuned in for even half an eps.

JJC III

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-13 06:20:36 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

GWRep,

ST had wormholes on TNG LONG before B5 was a glimmer in jms’s eyes, So if anybody stole anything then B5 stoled the look of wormholes from ST for their jump gates.
JJC III

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-13 13:06:59 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I wasn’t talking to you Ron.

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-13 13:07:45 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

This is between me and that big mean guy Scrab, he enjoys saying things to spite me.

Subj: CRC2001
Date: 96-06-13 14:42:25 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

In that case I apologize whole heartedly. Jumped to a conclusion.

Subj: To the peoplejumping at me.
Date: 96-06-13 14:45:30 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

I’ll go back read what I posted, but here’s the thing. I don’t remember saying what other people should, I stated my grivences with a show, and that was it.
RONPEGT
Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-13 19:44:10 EDT
From: REBinAZ
Posted on: America Online

Talk to Majel and she’ll tell you the ‘straight’ facts.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 03:26:49 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>”ST had wormholes on TNG LONG before B5 was a glimmer in jms’s eyes, So if anybody stole anything then B5 stoled the look of wormholes from ST for their jump gates.”<
Wormholes have been a common resource in Science Fiction to get you from planet A to planet B since the so-called “Golden Age” of SF in the late 40’s to 50’s; as well as “Hyperspace” or “Warp Speed” or whatever.
Nobody has stolen anything from anybody. It was already invented.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 08:45:29 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Mali,

Wormholes may already have been invented, But the look of seeing one in action was done on TNG and made a big part of the premise on DS9 long before we seen the look of these jump gates on B5. So, this crap about DS9 being a trekerlized version of B5 is utter and complete bull not to mention sour grapes.

JJC III

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 11:15:23 EDT
From: MAKagle
Posted on: America Online

The idea of hyperspace travel has been used by a number of shows and television series for decades. Heck, the wormhole isn’t anything LIKE a jump gate, anyway.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 11:16:40 EDT
From: MAKagle
Posted on: America Online

Actually, if you really want to get into it, Buck Rogers used “Star Gates” fifteen years ago.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 14:55:09 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online
>”Mali……… this crap about DS9 being a trekerlized version of B5 is utter and complete bull not to mention sour grapes.”<

Dear STAR: I never said that. All I’m saying is that the wormhole/Jumpgate/Warpspeed concept is not new, and everybody’s been using it since the 40’s.

Thank you for your comments, anyway.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-14 15:38:25 EDT
From: HAL MMI
Posted on: America Online

B5 is simply supperior to any incarnation of ST. WHo made up the look of jumpgates is irrelevant, what matters is who uses it better, that goes to B5. Hands down.

P.S. Do you all realise that TNG was vastly superior to the original. The original should get points for breaking the ice, but TNG was superior in every concievable way.

Subj: Geez!
Date: 96-06-15 03:54:42 EDT
From: Rushylon 5
Posted on: America Online

I have a feeling the name of this board has given people the wrong idea. B5 vs. Star Trek doesn’t mean (to me, anyway) that sides are to be chosen and then bash, bash, bash the other side. I have a feeling it was a way in which to compare and contrast these two shows (whether they should be compared and contrasted is another question).

AcDec (and other fans apparently on the side of trek): You are obviously intelligent, however sometimes I think you take things posted too literally. When the similarities between a wormhole and jumpgate were commented on, I don’t believe the poster was speaking in terms of the actual technical workings of either. Instead, I think it was more a point of having the stations (DS9 and B5) relatively close to “devices” that could bring people or aliens long distances in a short time.

GWREP (and other fans apparently on the side of B5): I think many of the points made are good ones, however I also think ST does deserve some respect; if not for the current incarnations (Voyager especially) then for opening the modern day door to SF (or near SF) shows. No, ST is not the sole reason for B5 being on the air but it does deserve some recognition for being at least opening a crack in the TV door.

By the way, if you couldn’t tell by my name, I do think B5 is the better of the shows, but that doesn’t mean I have to choose B5’s “side.” I don’t think this board was set up to be shot at with darts, but rather thoughts on how the two shows do similar, and different, things well.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-15 11:42:25 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“I think many of the points made are good ones, however I also think ST does deserve some respect; if not for the current incarnations (Voyager especially) then for opening the modern day door to SF (or near SF) shows.”

I am afraid that you are wrong about this. Star Trek has been more of a hinderence than a help. I am not a Trek basher (let’s not get into the stomach turning Voyager, OK), but, I also don’t think it’s the end all, be all, of science fiction. If the truth be told, Babylon 5 is breaking new ground, much in the way the original Star Trek did. The original Star Trek broke ground in that it showed that such a show was viable, especially in syndication. Babylon 5 is showing that such a show could be done in an economical way. Why did Battlestar Galactica get cancelled? Becuase it was too darn expensive to make. And, if Space Above and Beyond had taken some lessons from B5 it would be in much better shape than it is.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-15 16:15:33 EDT
From: REBinAZ
Posted on: America Online

Bobby,
Original Trek? Humm, maybe it was those boots and mini-skirts that truly broke
ground with you.
heehee ‘-)
Ro

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-15 17:18:26 EDT
From: Rushylon 5
Posted on: America Online

“The original Star Trek broke ground in that it showed that such a show was viable…”

That was what my comments were referring to. Yes, ST has now become a franchise which makes it less able to break new ground the way B5 does, but I was just pointing out that ST does deserve some kudos for at least opening a crack in the door.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-15 20:33:07 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“ST does deserve some kudos for at least opening a crack in the door.”

While I agree that the original Star Trek did just that, it also slammed the door shut after it managed to slip inside, which happened long after it was cancelled and was in syndication. To be fair, it’s not all Star Trek’s fault, or even Paramount’s. It has to do with the mindset of the suits who come up with all that offal that we see as network TV these days.

And, yes Ro, those miniskirts and go-go boots sure broke ground with me. In my opinion, they should never have changed that.

Subj: Re:Star Trek is at it AGAIN!
Date: 96-06-16 02:18:42 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< In Hollywood, it is nothing new to steal ideas—as Roddenberry told it, ‘Lost In Space’ was
his and they ripped him off. >>

I don’t know how many people remember it, but one or two years before “Lost In Space” appeared on TV there was a comic book series titled “Space Family Robinson.” I think it may have been published by Gold Key comics. When “Lost In Space” premiered, I had hopes it was an adaptation of the comic book series, which was actually fairly decent as a science fiction series (especially for the time). The TV show took a different tack — probably as much for budgetary reasons as anything — because the comic book took place with the Robinson family operating from their spaceship as a mothership, with a shuttlecraft to get out to individual planets. Instead, the TV show took place mostly on a planet, until one of the later seasons.

People can claim anything they like, but sometimes the facts don’t match up with those claims.
Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-16 11:46:01 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Ah, no need, I always jump to conclusions.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-16 11:48:34 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

OH goody, another one of those Psychologists, tell me I’m wrong Rushylon, please.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-16 11:50:01 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

However you are correct, Atleast I think so, but I still get a bit cranky in here, I don’t like ST at all but I try not to get to bent out of shape here.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-16 11:51:52 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I like you Bobby, you and me think alike, at least in this case.

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-16 16:10:57 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>I have a feeling the name of this board has given people the wrong idea. B5 vs. Star Trek doesn’t mean (to me, anyway) that sides are to be chosen and then bash, bash, bash the other side. I have a feeling it was a way in which to compare and contrast these two shows (whether they should be compared and contrasted is another question).<<

Wouldn’t it be fun if we all met in person to discuss this? Maybe at a convention, or something? (I’m seeing images from Braveheart now.. People might be brained by an angry Klingon with a baseball bat or a Narn with a crowbar..)

Subj: Re:Geez!
Date: 96-06-16 19:18:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Wouldn’t it be fun if we all met in person to discuss this? Maybe at a convention, or something? (I’m seeing images from Braveheart now.. People might be brained by an angry Klingon with a baseball bat or a Narn with a crowbar..)>>

Cool! where do I sign up? I know I got a sword around here somewhere. :)

–AcDec

Subj: CRC2001
Date: 96-06-17 04:42:27 EDT
From: SCrabt9347
Posted on: America Online

why don’t you grow some pubes and post me back when your voice changes you gerk off (that’s the only pussy your getting)

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-18 14:53:36 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

SCrabt9347, what a wonderful, intelligent, erudite and contructive contribution you have made to our discussion here! Keep up the good work…

Subj: Settle Down!
Date: 96-06-18 15:05:28 EDT
From: Yado M
Posted on: America Online

Jesus people they’re just shows! We’re all human beings here, and intelligant enough to operate AOL. So why are we at each others throughts about two T.V. shows.
And by the way, a wormhole connects two specific points, while hyperspace can take you from point A to anyplace else (if you’ve got enough gas:)

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-18 16:42:28 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I guess now we all know why Scrab used that name, put the S on the end and he’s got crabs, and just so you know, I am now going to ignore you. Cussing at me aint gonna get you anywhere, it’s not like what someone says to me online effects my life any. Your just another pathetic piece of trash that has nothing better to do than try to spite people over the internet of all places. By the way that’s Jerk off, and you don’t know me well enough to make any assumptions dick wad.

Subj: Re:Settle Down!
Date: 96-06-18 16:45:38 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Yado, I also heard somewhere that wormholes were created by asteroids or metiors traveling through space. Now if that were true, how would that create a wormhole, which is more like a short cut through your neighbors back yard from what I gathered. Would that have anything at all to do with the theory of dark matter?

Subj: Re:Settle Down!
Date: 96-06-18 19:29:36 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< Yado, I also heard somewhere that wormholes were created by asteroids or metiors traveling through space. Now if that were true, how would that create a wormhole, which is more like a short cut through your neighbors back yard from what I gathered. Would that have anything at all to do with the theory of dark matter? >>

CRC — Wormholes are strictly a mathematically possibility at the current time — largely the creation of CalTech’s supurb physicist Kip Thorne (with some recent thoughts added by Steven Hawking). A wormhole’s appertures (i.e. its entrance and exit) would resemble in may ways a black hole’s — in fact, a particular version of a wormhole may be a spinning black hole. In any event, to create one would require spectacular amounts of mass and energy (they are a gravitational anamoly in every conception — far more than could be created except by an asteroid.

My guess is your “asteroid” theory derives from the original Star Trek movie, which also was (as near as I can tell) the first sci fi movie of any type to incorporate the concept of wormholes. In the movie, a destabilization in the warp drive causes a wormhole with an asteroid lodged in the Enterprise’s path…. Someone somewhere probably assumed that meant the asteroid itself caused the wormhole.

As for dark matter, that is an entirely differnent subject — astronomical observations of gravitational effects of superclusters of stars prove that there is a large amount of matter that is not being observed spectroscopically. The current favorite theory is that neutrinois, which until recently were thought to be like light and therefore “massless,” may in fact have some amount of mass associated with them. Neutrinos are abundant everywhere in the Universe (they are created everytime matter abosrbs a photon), but like light, they cannot escape blackholes either….

Subj: Re:using new title monte
Date: 96-06-19 18:16:40 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I see, so it probably would not be possible for matter to exist inside the wormhole right? Another thing, I have always thought the universe kind of resembled organic matter. Someone described dark matter as walls in space. the resemblance being that of the cell wall, Nucleus, stuff like that, I’m sure you know your biology as well so is that a decent observation?

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-19 18:18:32 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I get, just making me mad so you could have AOL send me a neat letter, what a nice guy.

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-19 18:19:03 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I knew that was coming, I really should have noticed that.

Subj: last stand
Date: 96-06-20 11:10:00 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

On behalf of all those who have been harassed by Scrab who makes his opinions clear by cutting down others opinions and constantly telling us to shutup and get a life. He may think he knows all, but knows little. For Cjkek who thought a while back I was standing up for ST, read the below.
#1 Both shows are Sci-fi and face biast opinions from all those with limited imagination, we hak at each other when we should looking out for each other.
#2 BOTH shows are very good, and actually pretty dang original, and that is a matter of an opinion that really does not need to be taken as an offense, as some do.
#3 Proof is easy to come by. Look at the military seen, there are no true fighters on ST where as they are the back bone of B5 military. ST shows what the human race could be like and B5 shows what it is and always has been. ST uses a new scenerio each time to satisfy the imaginations of those who love to see futuristic developement. B5 uses a great continuing story line to have those who love a great story licking our chops.
#4 Yes, it IS possible that ST is the reason B5 was allowed to be successfull. But credit can also go to the pilot movie. Also B5 has taken an all new approach to space, instead of constantly using the same old universe over and over. However it is nice to watch a show where you see one episode and understand it perfectly. Though I like it better when you watch an entire season boil down to one massive war.

Thank you for reading this extensive view on this message board, again these are opinions and are not meant to offend anybody, only to show that ST and B5 are very very different, yet equally exciting if you look at it in a different way. Bye.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-20 14:34:32 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

CRC2001. Bravo! Well said and all that jazz. That is why I refuse to enter into the debate, you just can’t win.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-20 16:52:11 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>I guess now we all know why Scrab used that name, put the S on the end and he’s got crabs, and just so you know, I am now going to ignore you. Cussing at me aint gonna get you anywhere, it’s not like what someone says to me online effects my life any. Your just another pathetic piece of trash that has nothing better to do than try to spite people over the internet of all places. By the way that’s Jerk off, and you don’t know me well enough to make any assumptions dick wad.<<

You know, I don’t think this will make the Top Ten Best Come-Backs List. Not that his would, either…

Subj: Re:using new title monte
Date: 96-06-20 22:14:00 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

CRC — according to Kip Thorne, whether matter can exist inside a wormhole may be irrelevant — because his mathematics show that due to certain quantum/relativistic effects, once matter comes in contact with the wormhole, it causes it to “explode”…. The basis for this conclusion relates to certain mathematical qualities associated with time…. But actually, for the same reason, what may separate wormholes from blackholes is the idea that wormholes can, in fact, sustain matter in “matter form” — whereas black holes are, by definition, infinitely dense, but all matter is “crunched” into a singularity. Because every other time in history a mathematical “infinity” has been encountered in a real life physics situation, most physicists believe that actually there is an as yet unknown error in Einstein’s theory of relativity …. So the jury is still out as to the exact internal structire of both wormholes and black holes — which is one of many reason they’re such favorites of sci fi…

As for the “organic structure” of dark matter, I am not sure where you heard that theory, or what it entails. Although I haven’t read it, I understand that the physicist John Gribbon (author of “In Search of Schroedinger’s Cat”) has written a different book that incorporates notions of organic structure to the universe. But not having read the book (whose title I can’t remember), I really cannot comment as to what the theory says…. Sorry :(

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-21 00:43:43 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Uhm, since when did this offend you Songo?

Subj: Re:using new title monte
Date: 96-06-21 00:45:29 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Wow, you know your stuff Monte, Actually that helps out with my Physics course.
(unfortuanately from last year)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-21 00:46:20 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

ya, I wish I would have thought of that earlier, now I feelpretty dumb for arguing over it.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-22 14:13:12 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>> ST uses a new scenerio each time to satisfy the imaginations ….<<<<<
NEW?…..How about the ever-repeating-butler-like-prime- minister-from a world in need? How about the Kazons, a bad copy of the Klingons?…..
The Original Star Trek was really groundbreaking, but as you keep going, “A copy of a copy is not as perfect as the original”. Well, that applies to all the latest Trek incarnations.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-22 18:41:29 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Mali,

DS9 is one of the lastest incarnations of ST, And it’s all orginal as far as I’m concerned. DS9 is every bit as good as B5 and in some eps even better.

JJC III

Subj: B5 could have been better
Date: 96-06-23 12:04:06 EDT
From: Elusus
Posted on: America Online

B5 is a great show that has a plot that has developed very nicely. However, the special effects (which still look great) do not have the realism that Star Trek has had over the years. Maybe the ability to create life-like computer graphics hasn’t reached full capacity.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-23 12:54:30 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

<<P.S. Do you all realise that TNG was vastly superior to the original. The original should get points for breaking the ice, but TNG was superior in every concievable way.>>

I caught TOS on television last night, and I would have to say that i disagree with this statement. The original series episodes were like little morality plays..each episode had a point to make. This and the interaction between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy makes the original a much better series, in my opinion. Sure, the special effects were cheesy. But I don’t think that is what ST is about. This is not to say that I don’t like TNG. Because I like it very much (and it is far, far superior to Voyager). But I would have to give TOS the edge.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-23 18:24:53 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Well, sorry, but ST still uses a variety of different solutions, granted they all happen the same way, but especdially in the Next Generation they found themselves caught in new situations and new solutions.

Subj: Re:CRC2001
Date: 96-06-23 18:29:50 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Uhm, since when did this offend you Songo?<<

It doesn’t. I was just trying to say that I’d hoped for a better response.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-23 18:30:24 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Oh, now it’s on boys. That just ain’t true, DS9 is seriously messed up. Okay let’s think, would it not have been better if they used the DS9 concept and of a station, and change the races, in fact there should never have been another ST series after the Next Generation. Yes it is a matter of opinion and everybodies opinion deserves to be heard, but the ST movies were the peak of the ST legacy, now it’s just falling down. Where’s the action, where’s the thickening plot? I find joy in the new ST shows because of the fact that if you try to imagine them all being in one well written show together it is actually pretty enjoyable.

Subj: Re:B5 could have been better
Date: 96-06-23 18:37:16 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I think I’m going to disagree, na forget it. You might be right however I like B5 graphics a lot better. Besides, ST graphics are all those cool shots of the Ship going into warp drive. They don’t have massive fights with fighters crawling around in squadrons blasting each other, no huge cruisers laying each other to waste. In ST shows they fire a few shots while at eachother and one loses it’s shields and gives up. Then we find out that the poor chums were taken over by space bugs and had no idea what they were doing, and there is rarely a massive battle between fleets, it stinks. But sometimes that is made up for because of the focus on possible technology, and all these neat Scientific blunders they run into well floating around out there.

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-06-23 18:39:21 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<P.S. Do you all realise that TNG was vastly superior to the original. The original should get points for breaking the ice, but TNG was superior in every concievable way.>>

Let’s look at the time difference here, oh my, I guess thirty some years could make a diference couldn’t it.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-23 23:52:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Where’s the action, where’s the thickening plot? >>

If you need to ask this queston you really have not been watching DS9 this season.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-24 00:03:32 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JJC:

I find, too, that the ST I’m consistantly interested in is DS9. I know many postings in here seem to think that DS9 was a rip-off of B5, but it doesn’t feel that way to me, although I like them both for similar reasons. DS9 seems a “grown-up” version of the ST universe to me:

-Characters are allowed to grow and change, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Now, if they could extend the concept a little bit (if two characters are having difficulty dealing with an issue, don’t erase all trace of it from week to week), it would be even better (on-going love affairs were a start).
-No “cute” characters: no Datas, no Alexanders, no Neelixs. As interesting as these characters can sometimes be, they can get way too silly.
-Mysterious or downright nasty characters on a regular basis: Garrick, Odo, Quark (skimming the edge of cute, but still nasty enough).

I just hope to God they stay away from parallel-universe plots next year, though; they were the weakest of the season to me. I realize it must be a kick for the actors to play characters opposite normal, but that’s why the holosuite is there.

At first, it was amazing to me that DS9 did not catch on with Trekies, but after seeing the same people reject B5 I started to understand. DS9 will always be the bastard child of the ST universe. It’s a little too dark and gritty and weird for people content with the other Treks.

Sherry

Subj: Re: Graphics
Date: 96-06-24 00:10:19 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Elusus:

That’s really funny. All these years, when the ST movies came out, critics talked about the “cheesy” special effects left over from the show. CGI seems more and more prevalent in the newer Treks now, like on B5 — the opening of Voyager (which I think is just gorgeous) is definitely computer-generated.

Deep down, I think it’s just a matter of personal taste and length of exposure to one effect or the other. In the beginning, I found B5’s graphics a little unsettling, but they grew on me. And after such computer-generated fests as “Toy Story” and “Jurassic Park,” it started to look “natural” to me. Now, I’ve actually begun to prefer the CGI stuff. It still can’t render effective humans (as shown by the “people” in “Toy Story”), but when it comes to spaceships and new species…fine with me.

Sherry

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-24 03:02:28 EDT
From: Rushylon 5
Posted on: America Online

Here, here!

Rushylon 5 (who didn’t think Data was necessarily cute, but oh well)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-24 04:02:58 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<<<Where’s the action, where’s the thickening plot? >>
If you need to ask this queston you really have not been watching DS9 this season.>>
I, for one, have been… and that season finale was only proof. If this episode had been done back in September (about number three of the season, and why on earth couldn’t it have been? All the plot elements, except for actresses who get knocked up, were fresh from events of that time), it would have been something of a kicker. But as a season finale, it is incredibly lame. We waited a YEAR for this? It’s absolutely disgusting. There is NO REASON we couldn’t have done this back in fall and have the big Klingon war (yeah, right – many times bitten, forever shy) done this season. All the necessary plot devices from B5 had already been established, if they’d bothered going to England to see the final four.
Let’s not even talk about how it totally contradicts the ONLY OTHER time this season they bothered to do anything with the Changelings, where it was clear that they had the power and ability to infiltrate earth, etc and bring down the alpha Q with ease, they just didn’t feel like it and preferred to get everyone stirred up via paranoia. (Is it really paranoia when they’re really out to get you?) The idea that they can turn Changelings into humanoids makes a mockery out of that whole ep, but I’ll give them that since Sisko’s dad Admiral Cartwright already pointed out how they could get around those tests.
And did anyone else notice that Garrack got more of a punishment for trying to wipe out an enemy that the alpha quadrant is (who we kidding?) at war with than he did for torturing Odo?
And if Claudia Christian gets herself in a family war, you can bet JMS won’t incorporate it into the plot. Heave-ho, come back when you’re cured. Did Moonlightning’s suicide teach these people nothing? Incorporating actress’ pregnancies into the show NEVER works and is always show-death or at least a very bad move.
Heck, JMS strikes me as the kind of guy who would, on the contrary, go whispering to Mira Furlan that this might be a good time to think about starting a family, and that if she could arrange the conception to fall in (pick a month) it would be just perfect.

 

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-24 04:09:38 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

BTW, you want to talk about stale, recycled plotlines? Let’s have Worf’s people disown him (AGAIN!), let’s have Quark’s people disown him, and let’s have (wait for it) Odo’s people disown him.
I personally am waiting anxiously for the episode where Kira’s new boyfriend, the leader of Bajor (who is either a colossal pervert or had a very interesting confrontation with her after last week that they never bothered showing), turns out to be a Changeling – two birds with one stone: get control of Bajor and cut-off Odo from the romantic interest preventing him from returning to his people. The sort of predictable Trek plot-twist that they’ll do every time if it even occurs to them.
DS9 does decent low-key human stories, like Old Jake and Bashir-as-Bond, but as to the arc-stuff (a misnomer, really – they’re obviously making it up as they go along), I feel like I’m being handed tiny pieces not on a weekly or monthly basis, but a yearly basis, and they’re all things you pretty much knew were coming in some form or another. It’s like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Is ANYONE seriously worked up about this show or what direction it’s going or how events will resolve themselves?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-24 18:34:19 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

well, your right. I never said I was a consistant viewer.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-26 00:38:33 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Let’s not even talk about how it totally contradicts the ONLY OTHER time this season they bothered to do anything with the Changelings, where it was clear that they had the power and ability to infiltrate earth, etc and bring down the alpha Q with ease, they just didn’t feel like it and preferred to get everyone stirred up via paranoia. (Is it really paranoia when they’re really out to get you?) The idea that they can turn Changelings into humanoids makes a mockery out of that whole ep, but I’ll give them that since Sisko’s dad Admiral Cartwright already pointed out how they could get around those tests.>>

How does the ability to turn Changlings into humanoids make a mokery out of the episode. Being pernamently changed into a human would be the WORST thing that could happen to a changling; they absoultely despise solids. Also, the changling Gowron (do we know he is really a changling or did the others deliberatly place that thought into Odo’s mind?) could not have just declared war on the Fed. for no reason. The Klingons and Fed. were allies for many years, the changlins needed to make the Fed. look bad to most Klingons before starting the war. First the Feds side w/ the Cardassians, and now Gowron will try to start a war over the Arkanis sector (the writers added to the continuaty because the Klingons and Fed were arguing over the Arkanis sector in the TOS episode “Day of the Dove”).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-26 01:02:25 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Well, I’m assuming that Odo can be turned back into a Changeling, on the eminently rational grounds of “who’re we kidding?” Thus it would be a perfect way to spy on solids without being detected. In any case, I said I’d concede that one. I was on Sisko’s Dad’s side… but then it was perfectly obvious that we were supposed to be because the episode was a lesson in paranoia and the Changelings had no intention of direct interference, even seemed to look down their noses on it. Yeah, right.
The Klingons could have started this war back in October. I didn’t hear any Klingons terribly upset at the prospect of restoring the greatness of their empire. Except maybe Vir. Oh, sorry, wait. Gosh, I get so confused sometimes. The one Klingon who did complain got flayed alive for it (again!).
I just wonder how many seasons it’ll be before all the non-human characters (counting Bajorans as humans) get reconciled with their people again. Who’s next, anyway? Kira? Will Kira’s boyfriend the Changeling ally Bajor with the Klingons to spare themselves, forcing DS9 to declare its independence in a stirring scene where the Wormhole people grant Sisko the ability to have his hologram appear on all the major worlds so he can declare it?
I can’t think whether this show is so predictable just because of its stale writing or because of where it’s getting its ideas.
BTW, you can add Garrack to that list of characters who was officially booted from his people. And maybe even Gul Dukat. Wait, didn’t he get killed by Michael York?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-26 12:20:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Well, I’m assuming that Odo can be turned back into a Changeling, on the eminently rational grounds of “who’re we kidding?” Thus it would be a perfect way to spy on solids without being detected. In any case, I said I’d concede that one. I was on Sisko’s Dad’s side… but then it was perfectly obvious that we were supposed to be because the episode was a lesson in paranoia and the Changelings had no intention of direct interference, even seemed to look down their noses on it. Yeah, right.>>

I don’t know why you put human attitudes on the changlings. There is no way one would volunteer to be changed into a solid. Would you want to go through a complete sex change to be a spy, even if they said it would not be pernament; that is the same way that a changling would feel about becoming a solid.

<<The Klingons could have started this war back in October. I didn’t hear any Klingons terribly upset at the prospect of restoring the greatness of their empire. Except maybe Vir. Oh, sorry, wait. Gosh, I get so confused sometimes. The one Klingon who did complain got flayed alive for it (again!).>>

Of course most klingons would not complain about attacking the Cardassians, but attacking the Fed. would be much harder for them to do. That is why Gowron the changling had to sow distrust and hatered bewteen the Klingons, and Feds. And Worf is not the only one who does not like what “Gowron” was doing, Kor does not like it and niether does the Emperor. The Klingons are probably going to be in for another civil war if Gowron starts a war.

<< I just wonder how many seasons it’ll be before all the non-human characters (counting Bajorans as humans) get reconciled with their people again. Who’s next, anyway? Kira? Will Kira’s boyfriend the Changeling ally Bajor with the Klingons to spare themselves, forcing DS9 to declare its independence in a stirring scene where the Wormhole people grant Sisko the ability to have his hologram appear on all the major worlds so he can declare it?>>

Why would the Bajorians ally themselves with the klingons, it would not be very smart to allie yourselves with the weaker side. As for the second part, why don’t you just grow up a little bit.
<< I can’t think whether this show is so predictable just because of its stale writing or because of where it’s getting its ideas.>>

Exactly what ideas is DS9 stealing?

<< BTW, you can add Garrack to that list of characters who was officially booted from his people. And maybe even Gul Dukat. Wait, didn’t he get killed by Michael York?>>

We barely know anything about Garek.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-26 14:41:20 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Why are the Klingons benightedly the weaker side?
Why is everybody weaker than the feds who supposedly are new to the galaxy and have no military and whose ships are staffed by cobblers and apothecaries, with minimal military training? GOD I HATE THAT STUPID SHOW!

Subj: What Really Happened
Date: 96-06-26 18:10:42 EDT
From: Jms at B5
Posted on: America Online

A number of people have been posting their accounts of the B5/DS9 situation, and I wanted to step in — as the only person here who was involved directly — and set the record straight.

B5 was never pitched to Roddenberry or Berman. What happened was this: we took the show to the development people at Paramount — the folks who guide the creation and development of new shows — and gave them the series bible, synopses, the pilot screenplay, artwork, all kinds of material. They read it, held it for some time, discussed it, things started to heat up…then they turned around rather abruptly and said they felt it would compete with their other SF show, ST:TNG.

DS9 was *not* under consideration or development at this time, or for some time therafter. B5 was announced in the press as going ahead in November of that year; DS9 wasn’t even formally presented to the heads of Paramount until the following January or thereabouts. (And this was about 2-3 years after we’d given the B5 material to the development people at Paramount.)

I’ve never indicated that I felt Berman or Piller had deliberately borrowed anything from B5’s material, and have always felt that, if asked to do so, they would have refused. The only question I *have* had was the degree to which the same Paramount development people who read our material “guided” them in an effort to undercut or co-opt our show.

As for the similarities, they are mainly in the pilots of both shows. They’re both space stations, both near a main transfer point, both under the authority of commanders, both with female seconds in command, both commanders came from traumatic war experiences, both commanders had a kind of mystical destiny in front of them, the station came under attack from outside forces in both pilots, the female second in command led the defense in both pilots…it goes on from there.

Did we consider suing? Yes. Why didn’t we? Because it would’ve likely tied *both* shows up in litigation, and in the end, would’ve tainted both shows from the heat involved. (It would’ve been WB taking action, not me, so money wasn’t ever an issue.) In the end, I opted against the notion, on the theory that it’s better to compete in the marketplace of free ideas. If we couldn’t make a good or better show, it didn’t matter in any event.

jms
Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-26 18:35:32 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Sherry,

It’s not often that I find myself agreeing with post on the B5 boards, but yours nailed it on the head for me. I agreed with everything you said about DS9. I do consider DS9 to be more grown up then it’s counterparts and I love it’s complexity. Do you read any of the ST books that come out from pocket books? Have you heard about the four book series in the ST books under the banner INVASION, I’ve read the first two books in the series and they are really great.

JJC III

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-26 20:38:17 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Why are the Klingons benightedly the weaker side?
Why is everybody weaker than the feds who supposedly are new to the galaxy and have no military and whose ships are staffed by cobblers and apothecaries, with minimal military training? GOD I HATE THAT STUPID SHOW!>>

The Fed is made up of over 150 races, which had many diffrent levels of technology, It is not just the Earthlings. And what in the world do you think Starfleet is. Minimal military training? Four years in minimal?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:What Really Happened
Date: 96-06-26 20:51:50 EDT
From: TGreen1641
Posted on: America Online

Thank you for clearing up this issue JMS. It was much appreciated.

Tim

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-26 23:15:23 EDT
From: Murtay
Posted on: America Online

Sherry:

I ,too, am surprised at the response of ST fans to DS9. I hadn’t been able to pin down the reasons. Your comments seem right on. I wish more would give it a chance. It grows on you.

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-06-27 00:59:34 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JJC:

Thanks much. I always buying those books with every intention of diving in…and then something else comes along. My reading list is enormous and it gets longer each time I read another posting. I’ll put those at the top of my list, though. I took a look at my library the other day and realized that I’m going to have to live to be about 150 (and that’s just until the next posting!).

Sherry

Subj: Re:DS9 & ST
Date: 96-06-27 01:51:20 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

I enjoy the ST universe, but it sometimes occurs to me that it may have kept the popularity of television science fiction in general rather low, though not intentionally and not because the shows are of poor quality. It just seems like the fans don’t want ST to make that leap into adulthood and other people sense this.

I watch “Homicide,” “Law and Order,” “Frasier” — mainstream, quality shows. The minute you mention to someone who also likes those kind of shows that they may enjoy a show like B5 or DS9, that the writing and acting and ideas being explored on those shows are every bit as fascinating as the shows they are already watching, their eyes glaze over. A lot of people have come to sci fi because of ST. But by the time DS9 came along, ST meant “Trekies” and “I Grok Spook” to non-sci fi fans. There seems to be a huge gap between the audience for sci fi TV and everything else. What a shame, there’s so much good work being done today in the genre. Not even a People’s Choice Award for the best portrayal of American life (sorry, it was something like that, but I can’t remember exactly) to the ST’s can convince some people otherwise.

There are always going to be close-minded people, but at a time when B5 is hanging onto renewal by it’s fingernails it is especially painful to know that maybe a different marketing strategy could help. Yes, the Trekies’ hard work kept ST alive, but as long as people show up to jury duty in a ST uniform (what a novel way of getting out of jury duty, though), people are going to run like hell in the opposite direction — especially, although it was a woman in the aforementioned incident, women.

And, while I’m on the subject, Trekies have no one to blame but themselves for Voyager (yeah, I watch Voyager, praying it will improve). If you reject a more adult and original (original relative to ST, that is) vision, you’re going to get the same old series you had before, only this time it’s a second- or third-generation copy of the previous show. How many different versions of “Friends” did we see this season after the popularity of that show in it’s first season? We’re lucky B5 & DS9 are still on.

Frankly, if Paramount did get some “suggestions” for DS9…thank God! Two quality shows instead of one? I’ll take it every time. I think JMS is right, let them both compete for an audience, let quality tell the story (although I can see how frustrating that must be). But I hope they both survive.

And, Murtay, I think I figured it out: The theme song is nearly impossible to hum.;)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 06:55:58 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Would you want to go through a complete sex change to be a spy>>
No, but then I’m not paranoid about getting under my thumb all the people who are a little different from me. Let’s face facts: the Changelings are pretty human… yet another race that acts “just like we humans did back in the barbaric 20th century.”
<<The Klingons are probably going to be in for another civil war if Gowron starts a war.>>
Swell! That would be such a great and original way for Worf to redeem himself with his people. I’m waiting for the Changeling Civil War, the Cardassian Civil War, and the Ferengi Civil War so that we can redeem Odo, Garrack, Dukat, and Quark.
<<Why would the Bajorians ally themselves with the klingons, it would not be very smart to allie yourselves with the weaker side.>>
Why would this show do anything? And is there any evidence that the Klingons are the weaker side? Well, I don’t imagine they can rebuild their entire fleet between episodes (and still not promote Riker) like *some* gov’ts.
As for growing up, you need to be able to recognize satire when you see it. I think I’ve made my point about this show’s predictability and staleness. Exactly what is DS9 stealing? Where have you been? Even if all the similarities to B5 are just total coincidences (and the esteemed Ms. Roddenberry is in the wrong about the Trek people having stolen JMS’ idea), you can hardly deny that DS9 is ripping itself and Trek off ad nauseum.
Worf again, Quark, Odo, Dukat, Garrack (we do know quite a lot about him, or we did before the writers started backpeddling and contradicting themselves with tedious mystery) all alienated from their peoples? I think maybe it’s the writers who should do a little growing up. If it weren’t so brazen (“rubber stamp our renewal, would you?”), it’d be pathetic.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 06:58:50 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<And what in the world do you think Starfleet is. Minimal military training? Four years in minimal?>>
Two words: Troi and Wesley.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 12:09:09 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know, I said earlier that we need to find the good in each show, and I will continue to do so, but Ckjek is absolutely 100%, well maybe 85% right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Subj: Re:What Really Happened
Date: 96-06-27 12:13:17 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

JMS, I hope you read this message, I want to say that for myself and other future authors, you are a role model and your talent will always exceed those of many other more popular authors. Thanks for bringing excitement to my always boring Sunday nights by turning another Sci Fi flick into an example of near perfect TV series Developement.

BAD

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 12:16:05 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<The Fed is made up of over 150 races, which had many diffrent levels of technology, It is not just the Earthlings. And what in the world do you think Starfleet is. Minimal military training? Four years in minimal?>

Yet they don’t have cloaking capability, and even though they don’t, for some reason they can still beat the more ADVANCED Klingons and even Romulons. And why don’t we ever SEE any of those 149 OTHER races.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 15:52:29 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Two words: Troi and Wesley.>>

Troi is just a counsler. Do the chaplins and the cooks in the military fight? Wesley never finished the academy and hopefully we will never see him agian.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 15:56:49 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Yet they don’t have cloaking capability, and even though they don’t, for some reason they can still beat the more ADVANCED Klingons and even Romulons. And why don’t we ever SEE any of those 149 OTHER races.>>

The feds can make BETTER cloaks than either the Roms or the Klingons (“The Pegasus”).
The movies are much better at showing the diffrent races, just check out the council scenes in STIV and the kitomer conference in STVI. The reason we don’t see them on the series is IT WOULD COST TOO MUCH!

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 16:15:21 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< No, but then I’m not paranoid about getting under my thumb all the people who are a little different from me. Let’s face facts: the Changelings are pretty human… yet another race that acts “just like we humans did back in the barbaric 20th century.”>>

Would the Nazis have BECOME jews just to get them; I’m not saying impersonate them, but BECOME them, no way. The changlings absoultely dispise solids.

<< Swell! That would be such a great and original way for Worf to redeem himself with his people. I’m waiting for the Changeling Civil War, the Cardassian Civil War, and the Ferengi Civil War so that we can redeem Odo, Garrack, Dukat, and Quark.>>

The changlings would never have a civil war, though you could say that they had a mini one when for the first time there was dissagreement in the great link w/ what to do about Odo.

<< Why would this show do anything? And is there any evidence that the Klingons are the weaker side? Well, I don’t imagine they can rebuild their entire fleet between episodes (and still not promote Riker) like *some* gov’ts.>>

In at least two episodes it was said that the klingons would lose. And the Federation did not rebuild its fleet bewteen episodes (I assume you are refering to “Best of Both Worlds”). In “The Wounded” it was made clear that the Fleet was not back to full strength.

<< As for growing up, you need to be able to recognize satire when you see it. I think I’ve made my point about this show’s predictability and staleness. Exactly what is DS9 stealing? Where have you been? Even if all the similarities to B5 are just total coincidences (and the esteemed Ms. Roddenberry is in the wrong about the Trek people having stolen JMS’ idea), you can hardly deny that DS9 is ripping itself and Trek off ad nauseum.>>

I asked for specifics on just what are they stealing? And how in the world do you rip yourself off?

<< Worf again, Quark, Odo, Dukat, Garrack (we do know quite a lot about him, or we did before the writers started backpeddling and contradicting themselves with tedious mystery) all alienated from their peoples? I think maybe it’s the writers who should do a little growing up. If it weren’t so brazen (“rubber stamp our renewal, would you?”), it’d be pathetic.>>

I agree about Worf, they never should have brought him back. Quark was never a typical Fereingi.
Odo has always been an outcast, it’s just been formalized now. Dukat is not an outcast. We have never known much about Garrack, the guy never tells the truth. And is not the ENTIRE crew of B5 now alienated from their people? Is Earth not in a civil war? Are not the Minbari not split up? Making your charaters outcasts is just a very good dramatic tool. Both B5 and DS9 use it well.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-27 17:32:01 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<Troi is just a counsler. Do the chaplins and the cooks in the military fight?>

In the real military no, but in ST the counselors are apparently given the codes to the border defenses in case they are captured by aliens who need to sneak across the border.

Don
Subj: ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD!!!
Date: 96-06-27 19:56:30 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

AcDec:

How many times did Weaseley save the Enterprise while Data stood around with his thumb up his positronic brain? And dont forget THE DOCTOR defeated the Borg in the final season opener (I think).

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 01:50:34 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<The Fed is made up of over 150 races, which had many diffrent levels of technology, It is not just the Earthlings. And what in the world do you think Starfleet is. Minimal military training? Four years in minimal?>>
Given the conceptually ludicrous nature of the Federation Concept, That ancient races fall down in awe at the sight of huamans and move their autonomy to a backwater planet, and all the races agendas just happen to fit together SO PERFECTLY (You never have a race in trek like the Pah’ma’ra with really disgusting tendencies, everyone gets along, as if all were on some interstellar Prozac), and it is also axiomatic that there are a multiplicty of races in the other empires as well, it is also rather probable that Technological levels would be higher in an oligarchy, rather than the Fed, which really should be in a perpetual state of civil war, which puts a real damper on the economy. Also the show has made clear that academy training is “SCIENCE, SCIENCE, SCIENCE! (Thomas Dolby voice). Four years is nothing, Naval Captains spend much more time in military training, and don’t have time to invent new widgets. Contrary to “The Other Show”s View, the military art IS a science onto itself. WHAT A DUMB SHOW!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 11:23:17 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Wesly didn’t finish the academy? So what was he doing on the bridge huh?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 11:24:46 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

B5 manages to show all the aliens, So do they have a better budget or do they enjoy making a quality story?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 11:29:16 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Exactly Ckjek, What the heck is wrong with this picture? How can an entire Freeking SHIP be a bunch of dang geniuses, they can’t all be a freeking EINSTEIN!!!!!!!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 12:50:51 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<In the real military no, but in ST the counselors are apparently given the codes to the border defenses in case they are captured by aliens who need to sneak across the border.>>

Yes, but Troi is also a leutinant commander, and she might need those codes one day if for some reason she has to take command (“Rascals”).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-28 12:53:07 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<How many times did Weaseley save the Enterprise while Data stood around with his thumb up his positronic brain? And dont forget THE DOCTOR defeated the Borg in the final season opener (I think). >>

Wes saved the ship 3 1/2 times, and were not through his fighting ability, but his engeenering ability. Dorctor Crusher is a full commander, so she should be expected to know how to fight.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 13:00:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< it is also rather probable that Technological levels would be higher in an oligarchy, rather than the Fed, which really should be in a perpetual state of civil war, which puts a real damper on the economy.>>

Is the US in a perpetual state of civil war? What is the diffrence. Only an idiot would want to fight an all out intersteller war. Can you even imagine the destuction possiable w/ the weapons they have. One antimatter bomb could make our entire nuclear arsenal look like a pack of firecrackers.
The only all out war that has been shown on ST was in “Yesterday’s Enterprise.” 40 BILLION had died. How long would the people put up w/ that? Also war is the fastest way to increase you technological capabilities.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 13:02:31 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Wesly didn’t finish the academy? So what was he doing on the bridge huh?>>

He was an acting ensign, a field commission. Some of you should actually watch the show before making comments.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 13:05:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<B5 manages to show all the aliens, So do they have a better budget or do they enjoy making a quality story?>>

Their actors are less expensive, speacil effects cost less. The producers probably get payed less, and the sets are more expensive, and they use many more location shots than B5. That is why you see many more aliens on DS9 than TNG, less location shots and cheaper actors.

–AcDec

 
Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 13:07:20 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Exactly Ckjek, What the heck is wrong with this picture? How can an entire Freeking SHIP be a bunch of dang geniuses, they can’t all be a freeking EINSTEIN!!!!!!!>>

Because it is the Flagship and therefore has the best crew, we also know it is not very easy to get into the Academy in the first place.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-28 16:53:56 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<Yes, but Troi is also a leutinant commander, and she might need those codes one day if for some reason she has to take command (“Rascals”).>
<Dorctor Crusher is a full commander, so she should be expected to know how to fight.

–AcDec>

The Real Navy has two types of officers: the regualar line officers who are in the line of command; and specialty officers,(incorrect term, the proper one escapes me at the moment.) who are not in the line of command. Specialty officers include Doctors, Counselors, JAG’s (lawyers), Supply Officers, and Limited Duty Officers (LDO’s). The reason they are not in the line of command is that their specialty is deemed too demanding to add the Training of a regular Lien officer.

In the Real Navy, neither Crusher nor Troi would ever be legally able to take command of the ship.

Don

Subj: A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-06-28 17:00:11 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

I HAVE watched the show, I know all those explainations, and do you know what. An ACTING, no matter if he is the second coming of Einstein or not would save the Flagship, with the”best crew in the fleet” all by him self on a seemingly consistant basis, especially with a seasoned Captain, and a “top-notch” command staff. Basically they are saying that this academy is worthless, because you can be the best officer in the fleet without even going.
This isn’t a slam at you, obviously you’re smart enough to watch B5, and nostalgic enough to love Trek, I too feel that Trek isn’t defended enough on this page. But you can’t point out the faults of Trek over on the Trek page. That’s why the shots are taken over here.

RONPEGT
“I got alot of good ideas, the problem is most of them suck.” George Carlin

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-28 17:47:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<In the Real Navy, neither Crusher nor Troi would ever be legally able to take command of the ship.>>

Well, Starfleet in not the US Navy, is it?
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-06-28 17:49:14 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I HAVE watched the show, I know all those explainations, and do you know what. An ACTING, no matter if he is the second coming of Einstein or not would save the Flagship, with the”best crew in the fleet” all by him self on a seemingly consistant basis, especially with a seasoned Captain, and a “top-notch” command staff. >>

He only saved the ship 3 1/2 times. And most of those he was working w/ the others.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-06-28 17:51:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But you can’t point out the faults of Trek over on the Trek page. That’s why the shots are taken over here.>>

The trek fans ride the show harder than most B5 fans do. You will not get flamed too bad if you carfully explain why you are complaining and cite speciefics. You will NOT get a good response if you pull a Bevis and Butthead and say “Trek Sucks”, or call the people on the board losers.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-28 18:32:53 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Wes saved the ship 3 1/2 times, and were not through his fighting ability, but his engeenering ability. Dorctor Crusher is a full commander, so she should be expected to know how to fight.>>

There are several psychologists holding the rank of Lt. Cmdr. in the Navies of the world, I daresay none of them knows any nuclear launch codes. Moreover, there are Doctors who are colonels, even Generals, but they generally know nothing about how to fight as the medical cops. is considered a speciallized branch.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 18:36:24 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<<< Wesly didn’t finish the academy? So what was he doing on the bridge huh?>>

He was an acting ensign, a field commission. Some of you should actually watch the show before making comments.>>

Actually field commissions are only supposed to be made in extremis, as there was a full complement of both officers and enlisted men the commission shoud have been overtuned by Picard’s superiors relegating Weaslye to one of the pointless “Children on Board”

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 19:45:46 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>How does the ability to turn Changlings into humanoids make a mokery out of the episode. <<

Then, even if you test to make sure someone is a human, you *still* don’t know if they’re a traitor or not.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 19:49:57 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> And maybe even Gul Dukat. Wait, didn’t he get killed by Michael York?<<

No, Dhukat (sp?) struck an adder that caused the captain of that greek pyromaniac guy (Prometheus) to order him to impale the Minbari with lances of light. Or something like that.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-28 20:01:42 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>><<And what in the world do you think Starfleet is. Minimal military training? Four years in minimal?>>
Two words: Troi and Wesley.<<

Look at the way they promote people, too. The most effective characters were Picard, Riker, Data, and Geordi; how many of them were promoted?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 03:55:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<<< Wesly didn’t finish the academy? So what was he doing on the bridge huh?>>
He was an acting ensign, a field commission. Some of you should actually watch the show before making comments.>>
Sorry, Ac – but I think YOU’RE the one who’s missed the point, which originally was to produce characters on the bridge who hadn’t had four years of Starfleet training.
Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 03:59:55 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< we also know it is not very easy to get into the Academy in the first place.>>
One word: NOG
The only reason it was so hard for Wesley was because the writers didn’t want him to leave the show. More Trek inconsistency.
Any institution that accepted Chekov, Kevin Riley, Lt. McGyvers (Khan’s squeeze-toy), Sulu (who went through hobbies like a bored housewife), Captain Cameron (from ST:G) and, yes, Nog can’t have very high standards.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 17:10:11 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<He was an acting ensign, a field commission. Some of you should actually watch the show before making comments.>>

Oh, well gee, let’s let him take over the whole SHIP so he can learn how to be a Captain!!!!!

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-29 19:47:57 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<There are several psychologists holding the rank of Lt. Cmdr. in the Navies of the world, I daresay none of them knows any nuclear launch codes. Moreover, there are Doctors who are colonels, even Generals, but they generally know nothing about how to fight as the medical cops. is considered a speciallized branch.>>

As I said before, Starfleet is not the US navy. You would expect a space navy to have a diffrent structure than a water navy.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 19:49:33 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Actually field commissions are only supposed to be made in extremis, as there was a full complement of both officers and enlisted men the commission shoud have been overtuned by Picard’s superiors relegating Weaslye to one of the pointless “Children on Board”>>

Starfleet is not the US navy. Starfleet captains have more atunomy then todays sea captains.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 19:50:27 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Then, even if you test to make sure someone is a human, you *still* don’t know if they’re a traitor or not.>>

Heck, even Sisko’s father knew that.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 19:53:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Sorry, Ac – but I think YOU’RE the one who’s missed the point, which originally was to produce characters on the bridge who hadn’t had four years of Starfleet training.>>

Wesly was a special case. No others like him that I have seen. Heck, Picard would probably not let him on the bridge in the first place if it was not for the Traveller.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 19:59:26 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Any institution that accepted Chekov, Kevin Riley, Lt. McGyvers (Khan’s squeeze-toy), Sulu (who went through hobbies like a bored housewife), Captain Cameron (from ST:G) and, yes, Nog can’t have very high standards.>>

Chekov, he was one heck of a navigater.
What was wrong w/ Riley.
As for McGyvers, bad apples can slip through any system.
Sulu was a great pilot, and he became a great captain. I don’t think Starfleet cares much about someones hobbies, just their abilities.

You just seem to not like these charters personalaties.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-29 20:00:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, well gee, let’s let him take over the whole SHIP so he can learn how to be a Captain!!!!!>>

When did they let him take over the whole ship?
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 01:23:40 EDT
From: AustinMay
Posted on: America Online

AcDec

Yes cooks in the real military do fight. They are fully trained to in Basic….. but are a last resort.

As for ST ….. Gimme a break! Sorry not you but the show. STNG had Troi and Crusher commanding the Big E a couple of times…… I wanted to scream when I saw those episodes. Just because someone has a higher rank ( i.e. Bev being a Lt Cdr or Cdr ) doesn’t mean she would take over the bridge over say a Lt or Lt JG whose position is on the bridge. When I saw those episodes I knew those actresses probably spoke up and said they wanted a piece of the action and they got it. At the expense of reality / Logic and common sense.
GAG!

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-30 01:39:44 EDT
From: AustinMay
Posted on: America Online

>> As I said before, Starfleet is not the US Navy. You would expect a space navy to have different structure than a water navy <<

AcDec
You are a true Trekker ( I assume you are more TNg than TOS ). But don’t you think that putting Troi or Bev in the big chair on a ship and an *entire* bridge full of more competant, more experienced, more knowledgeable and overall a zillion times better than Bev or Troi ….. a bit illogical / irrational / entirely *figgin’* stupid.
You actually think that Starfleet, if it existed, would ever allow Bev or Troi into the big chair?
*Or* do you think, like I and many others think, that they only put them there because maybe the actresses wanted a bigger or more juicy part ?

B5 would never allow Dr Franklin the Big chair just because of his rank / Richard Biggs wanted a bigger slice of the action. Instead they wrote him a good story ( Gropos ) to expand his character.

Austin

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 03:51:20 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Wesly was a special case. No others like him that I have seen. Heck, Picard would probably not let him on the bridge in the first place if it was not for the Traveller.>>
Ok. Now “Commander” Troi…? Boy, these special cases are bursting out all over…

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 09:45:52 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<Yes, but Troi is also a leutinant commander, and she might need those codes one day if for some reason she has to take command (“Rascals”).

–AcDec>

< Dorctor Crusher is a full commander, so she should be expected to know how to fight.

–AcDec>

<Well, Starfleet in not the US Navy, is it?
–AcDec

<Well, Starfleet in not the US Navy, is it?
–AcDec>

Well AcDec, seems you want want to have it both ways, Starfleet is a military organization except when compared to real military oragnizations which is it?

Don

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 12:39:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<As for ST ….. Gimme a break! Sorry not you but the show. STNG had Troi and Crusher commanding the Big E a couple of times…… I wanted to scream when I saw those episodes. Just because someone has a higher rank ( i.e. Bev being a Lt Cdr or Cdr ) doesn’t mean she would take over the bridge over say a Lt or Lt JG whose position is on the bridge. When I saw those episodes I knew those actresses probably spoke up and said they wanted a piece of the action and they got it. At the expense of reality / Logic and common sense.
GAG! >>

They used their free time to learn everything that they are required to know in order to stand watch on the bridge. They had to pass all of the tests required, why shouldn’t they be allowed too. We know that Bev will probably have command of her own ship one day (“All Good Things…”). Stop trying to put US navy procedures into a fictional space navy.

–AcDec.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-06-30 12:42:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You actually think that Starfleet, if it existed, would ever allow Bev or Troi into the big chair?
*Or* do you think, like I and many others think, that they only put them there because maybe the actresses wanted a bigger or more juicy part ?>>

Why not put Bev in the big chair, she was the one that beat the Borg ship in “Decent”. You still have not given me a good reason, other than the US navy wouldn’t do it.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 12:44:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Ok. Now “Commander” Troi…? Boy, these special cases are bursting out all over…>>

Troi was a leutinat commander from the first episode. How is she a special case.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-06-30 12:45:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Well AcDec, seems you want want to have it both ways, Starfleet is a military organization except when compared to real military oragnizations which is it?>>

Are all miltary organizations the same?
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re: Famous fans of ST
Date: 96-06-30 22:57:19 EDT
From: Mattsblau
Posted on: America Online

I agree, However B5 has gained my respect. Very good story lines. I only wish it was not on so late here in Clloumbus Oh. 1:00AM on Sat. Nights. Good thing the old VCR works!

Subj: Re:What Really Happened
Date: 96-06-30 23:12:44 EDT
From: Mattsblau
Posted on: America Online

Congratulations on a great show. I’m glad you did not sue. Both shows are great. I am a fan of both! Nobody looses

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 16:53:50 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<As I said before, Starfleet is not the US navy. You would expect a space navy to have a diffrent structure than a water navy.>>

The salient point is AcDec that unless in ST it only takes about one month to complete all of medical school, no human being could have the time and energy to be both a competent doctor and ship commander. The structure of the Navy discussed, (not just US, but also British, Russian, Chinese, etc.), is a result of the practical limits imposed by specialization within the armed forces and the limits of human endurance.
Subj: Dont worry, Crusher’s here..
Date: 96-07-01 16:58:02 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
<<Well AcDec, seems you want want to have it both ways, Starfleet is a military organization except when compared to real military oragnizations which is it?>>

Are all miltary organizations the same?
–AcDec<<

They may not all be the same but you sure as Hell wont see the ship’s doctor, who has no MILITARY training, taking on and defeating the biggest menace in the galaxy, a force that has done nothing but fight for millenia and has a collective conscience of experience to draw from. What crap!!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 16:58:37 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Starfleet is not the US navy. Starfleet captains have more atunomy then todays sea captains.>>

Actually, given the ease of interstellar communication on ST, the captains should have considerably less autonomy than modern submariners. Moreover, personnell rules exist for the benefit of cohesion on board. Your assertion implies that a regimented force would hand over an excessive degree of power to a commander, with no oversight of any kind. Actually the show implies this is the case (remember my post on the 8 (Count ’em!) court-martial offenses covered up by old Cpt. Chrome-Dome Retard.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 17:21:05 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<The salient point is AcDec that unless in ST it only takes about one month to complete all of medical school, no human being could have the time and energy to be both a competent doctor and ship commander. The structure of the Navy discussed, (not just US, but also British, Russian, Chinese, etc.), is a result of the practical limits imposed by specialization within the armed forces and the limits of human endurance.>

Exactly, study some military history and you may discover that since the enception of a military organization there has been a definite trend towards specialization. It takes years of study and practice to become a competent military commander, just as it does with any other profession. Persons who choose a highly specialized field ( doctors, counslors, lawyers) are not permitted to become field commanders in any military that I am aware of.

Don

Subj: Ugh!
Date: 96-07-01 17:21:40 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Here’s one!

Is it just me, or do the Borg (OoooooH! Scaaaaarrry!) just resemble a kind of very lame and uninteresting plagarism of the Daleks. (Just replace EXTERMINATE! with “assimilate”) WHAT A BAD SHOW!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 17:22:58 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<Are all miltary organizations the same?>

No, but if you are going to emulate one, why not the best?

Don

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 17:27:40 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<As for ST ….. Gimme a break! Sorry not you but the show. STNG had Troi and Crusher commanding the Big E a couple of times…… I wanted to scream when I saw those episodes. Just because someone has a higher rank ( i.e. Bev being a Lt Cdr or Cdr ) doesn’t mean she would take over the bridge over say a Lt or Lt JG whose position is on the bridge. When I saw those episodes I knew those actresses probably spoke up and said they wanted a piece of the action and they got it. At the expense of reality / Logic and common sense.
GAG! >>

<<They used their free time to learn everything that they are required to know in order to stand watch on the bridge. They had to pass all of the tests required, why shouldn’t they be allowed too. We know that Bev will probably have command of her own ship one day (“All Good Things…”). Stop trying to put US navy procedures into a fictional space navy.>>

–AcDec.

Once again you miss the point. A doctor on a Trident submarine could never complete the training to command the vessel without becoming completely derelict in his duties on board, its just too hard, there is too much to learn. Do you seriously think that learning to command a warship in space would be easier and less involved than a present-day submarine? A kind of “Enterprise by Macintosh”, just Plug & Play? STs writing simply oversteps the limits of credulity.

Subj: Re:Dont worry, Crusher’s here.
Date: 96-07-01 17:35:28 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<<<Well AcDec, seems you want want to have it both ways, Starfleet is a military organization except when compared to real military oragnizations which is it?>>

Are all miltary organizations the same?>>

Structurally and qualitatively, no. But they all are alike in nature in that they are orginizations designed to be intruments for the projection of power on behalf of their respective governments: said projection classically comprising the acts of
1) Killing the enemy
2) taking ground
3) denying the enemy the means to propogate hostilities.

All forces are alike in these regards. (See Clausewitz; See also Sunzi, Bingfa)

Subj: The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-01 17:51:52 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Here is another one: Why is Kira on the bridge of the Defiant, that dust-buster in space. Bajor is not a fed member, and even if there is a formal alliance, NOBODY, I mean, NOBODY, lets even allies have access to the launch codes. A German or British officer may visit our ships, but he or she would have no authority to operate its systems from a security standpoint. Especially if the ship was our newest, top of the line deal. What a Dumb Show (WADS!)

Subj: Save B5
Date: 96-07-01 18:51:59 EDT
From: MBrownA1
Posted on: America Online

Pten, a division of warner brothers may cancel Babylon 5 if we don’t support
it. send letters via snailmail to the pten executive comittee at

Warner Brothers
4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, California 91522
Attn: Babylon 5

 
Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-01 19:42:00 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<<< But you can’t point out the faults of Trek over on the Trek page. That’s why the shots are taken over here.>>

The trek fans ride the show harder than most B5 fans do. You will not get flamed too bad if you carfully explain why you are complaining and cite speciefics. You will NOT get a good response if you pull a Bevis and Butthead and say “Trek Sucks”, or call the people on the board losers.>>

Well, I found that if you are too critical of any particular episode, they start saying things like, “well if you don’t like the show, don’t watch.” Then the uber-forum-meister, Data1701D, descends and tells you not to upset the children.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 19:44:41 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<<<There are several psychologists holding the rank of Lt. Cmdr. in the Navies of the world, I daresay none of them knows any nuclear launch codes. Moreover, there are Doctors who are colonels, even Generals, but they generally know nothing about how to fight as the medical cops. is considered a speciallized branch.>>

As I said before, Starfleet is not the US navy. You would expect a space navy to have a diffrent structure than a water navy.>>

actually, considering just how much MORE advanced medicine must be in the 24th century, I doubt that a doctor would ANY time for advanced combat and command training.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 20:25:58 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

Why not Archer? After all all you have to do is wave a magic hummbeeper over a broken body part/perforated lung/empty eyesocket and presto! Remember these are the same personnel whose dependance on tech is so heavy that hardly anyone knows basic first-aid(someone didn’t know how to set a splint or turniquet, I forgot which…).

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 20:35:38 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The salient point is AcDec that unless in ST it only takes about one month to complete all of medical school, no human being could have the time and energy to be both a competent doctor and ship commander. The structure of the Navy discussed, (not just US, but also British, Russian, Chinese, etc.), is a result of the practical limits imposed by specialization within the armed forces and the limits of human endurance.>>

Doctor Crusher was a doctor before she ever entered Starfleet. She then had 8 years in starfleet medical (The regular academy courses everybody takes along w/ the things she would need to know to be a doctor on a ship, probably a lot of alien phisiology). After she had been a starfleet doctor for awile she decided to take the classes for bridge duty. It is not like she did it all at once.

Are you saying that nobody in the world could handle being a doctor and a ship commander? There are people w/ multiple PHD’s and they take forever to get. I know one gut who is a MD and has two seperate PHD’s, that is alot of work.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Dont worry, Crusher’s her
Date: 96-07-01 20:37:51 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<They may not all be the same but you sure as Hell wont see the ship’s doctor, who has no MILITARY training, taking on and defeating the biggest menace in the galaxy, a force that has done nothing but fight for millenia and has a collective conscience of experience to draw from. What crap!!>>

She had the same military training every other commander has, she might not have had all the military experiance that full time XO’s have, but she beat the Borg w/ her SCIENCE knowlage, not he military knowlage.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 20:43:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Actually, given the ease of interstellar communication on ST, the captains should have considerably less autonomy than modern submariners. Moreover, personnell rules exist for the benefit of cohesion on board. Your assertion implies that a regimented force would hand over an excessive degree of power to a commander, with no oversight of any kind. Actually the show implies this is the case (remember my post on the 8 (Count ’em!) court-martial offenses covered up by old Cpt. Chrome-Dome Retard.>>

The Starfleet admirals barely ever makle any of the personell decisions on board the ship, the Captain can run the ship the way he wants to. Starfleet officers do not blindly follow orders (“Redemption”). Results matter, if a captain disobeys the rules and everything turns out OK, he is fine, if things do not turn out OK then that guy is in big trouble.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 20:44:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<No, but if you are going to emulate one, why not the best?>>

Because G.R. who was in the military, say some things that he thought he could improve on.

 

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 20:51:10 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Doctor Crusher was a doctor before she ever entered Starfleet. She then had 8 years in starfleet medical (The regular academy courses everybody takes along w/ the things she would need to know to be a doctor on a ship, probably a lot of alien phisiology). After she had been a starfleet doctor for awile she decided to take the classes for bridge duty. It is not like she did it all at once.
Are you saying that nobody in the world could handle being a doctor and a ship commander? There are people w/ multiple PHD’s and they take forever to get. I know one gut who is a MD and has two seperate PHD’s, that is alot of work.>>

Thank you AcDec for proving my point so admirably. If the medical practice in the ST universe is still so complex and tasking as to take up so many years of training, it is unlikely that, given the amount of work, research, and continuing education in medicine that she could learn to be a ship commander.
As for the Multi Ph.D. people, you are bizzareley mistaken if you think that there is any similarity between the business of obtaining multiple academic degrees, and the mastery of 2 seperate professions to the highest degree. Gen. Schwartzkopf has 2 Ph.D s in history and economics, respectively, but he is not a Lawyer or Doctor, not could he conceivably become on as the necessary experience ad practicum required would necessitate his leaving the generalship. Could you imagine a general working simultaneously as an intern in a hospital? Its as rediculous as a doctor going through the 15+ years needed to become a submarine commander. WADS!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 20:53:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Once again you miss the point. A doctor on a Trident submarine could never complete the training to command the vessel without becoming completely derelict in his duties on board, its just too hard, there is too much to learn. Do you seriously think that learning to command a warship in space would be easier and less involved than a present-day submarine? A kind of “Enterprise by Macintosh”, just Plug & Play? STs writing simply oversteps the limits of credulity.>>

All starfleet officers get the same basic training, which includes the basics of starship piloting and command. Then, if you want to stand watch on the bridge, you must take more classes, and pass the same tests that everyone else has too. Troi and Crusher usally just stand watch occasionally, the Captain or first officer can be called to the bridge if there is an emergency. The only reason Crusher was put in full command of the Enterprise in “Decent” was that everyone else was down on that planet, and she was just supposed to take the ship home, she disobeyed orders when she came back for everyone.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 20:53:46 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Results matter, if a captain disobeys the rules and everything turns out OK, he is fine, if things do not turn out OK then that guy is in big trouble.>>

Sound like a police state to me. So much for the rule of law. This assumes in the Aristotelian sense that the captains must be of such superior virtu that they effectively superced the necessity of law. WADS!

Subj: Re:Dont worry, Crusher’s her
Date: 96-07-01 20:55:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Structurally and qualitatively, no. But they all are alike in nature in that they are orginizations designed to be intruments for the projection of power on behalf of their respective governments: said projection classically comprising the acts of
1) Killing the enemy
2) taking ground
3) denying the enemy the means to propogate hostilities.>>

True, but I was refering to the issue of giving Doc. Crusher command.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 20:55:20 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Results matter, if a captain disobeys the rules and everything turns out OK, he is fine, if things do not turn out OK then that guy is in big trouble.>>

For further proof of how rediculous this assertion is, read Machiavelli(Discorsi) on the role of commanders. You have it backwards my friend.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-01 20:57:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Here is another one: Why is Kira on the bridge of the Defiant, that dust-buster in space. Bajor is not a fed member, and even if there is a formal alliance, NOBODY, I mean, NOBODY, lets even allies have access to the launch codes. A German or British officer may visit our ships, but he or she would have no authority to operate its systems from a security standpoint. Especially if the ship was our newest, top of the line deal. What a Dumb Show (WADS!)>>

Because Bajor lets the Fed use their station. It’s a trade off, and Sisko can let anyone he wants have the codes for the Defiant, and he trusts Kira.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Dont worry, Crusher’s her
Date: 96-07-01 20:58:26 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Structurally and qualitatively, no. But they all are alike in nature in that they are orginizations designed to be intruments for the projection of power on behalf of their respective governments: said projection classically comprising the acts of
1) Killing the enemy
2) taking ground
3) denying the enemy the means to propogate hostilities.
True, but I was refering to the issue of giving Doc. Crusher command>>

Doctors, lawyers, and geology professors are generally very poor power projectors.
Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-01 20:59:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Well, I found that if you are too critical of any particular episode, they start saying things like, “well if you don’t like the show, don’t watch.” Then the uber-forum-meister, Data1701D, descends and tells you not to upset the children.>>

Data1701D is a fan of the show like everyone else, if he thinks you are wrong than he will tell you so like everyone else. If you say somthing to the effect of “This show sucks” he will just ask you why you watch it if you hate it so much. JMS is pretty much the same way.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-01 21:01:12 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Because Bajor lets the Fed use their station. It’s a trade off, and Sisko can let anyone he wants have the codes for the Defiant, and he trusts Kira.>>

The british let us use Hong Kong, the Japanese Okinawa, but they don’t get our nuke codes, no matter what great guys the officers might be personally, or how much we trust them on a personal level. WADS!

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 21:03:39 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<actually, considering just how much MORE advanced medicine must be in the 24th century, I doubt that a doctor would ANY time for advanced combat and command training.>>

Doc Crusher and Troi, are not expected to have advanced training, they just have the basics needed to stand watch, and handle an emergency. The only reason that Crusher got full command in “Descent” was because everyone else was busy.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-01 21:06:29 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Doc Crusher and Troi, are not expected to have advanced training, they just have the basics needed to stand watch, and handle an emergency.>>

Standing watch and handling emergencies is what ensigns are for. WADS!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-01 21:24:45 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<When did they let him take over the whole ship?>>
EVER HEARD OF SARCASM?????????

 

Subj: Re:multi-talented personnel
Date: 96-07-02 01:58:06 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

If the problem were limited to Troi, Crusher and Wesley, I might be able to agree. However, it seems that anyone on that show can take over any position. Now that’s an admirable thing to aim for in any organization, but I’ve never seen any complex organization where that is the case. It would take way too long to train everybody to do everything; that’s what specialization eliminates. Yes, everyone could be expected to have a basic understanding of the major (and some minor) points of operation. However, there is no way anyone could train enough to handle everything — and not be around 80 years old by the time they graduate academy, that is. These people seemed to have led full social lives as well as gone through school (Crusher was married and raising a child, for God’s sake). When in the world did they learn all of this.
And if they are able, under extreme pressure, to do anything asked of them, to have any knowledge at their fingertips, why such emphasis on specialization — and the titles that go with it — in the first place?
Their computers handle a lot of mundane tasks for them, but they seem to know how to repair everything they come across. I don’t care if you are the best and the brightest, there is no way to learn all of that, AND get a grounding in literature, sports, music, archaeology, etcetera, which all of these people also seem to posses. Crusher even learned tap dancing.
Basically, you’d have to be dealing with an organization of Renaissance people, or genius we can’t even begin to comprehend. Now, these are bright people, but come on. It’s a wonderful fantasy — that’s what suspension of disbelief is all about — but a fantasy is all it is.

Sherry

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-02 03:08:22 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<As for the Multi Ph.D. people, you are bizzareley mistaken if you think that there is any similarity between the business of obtaining multiple academic degrees, and the mastery of 2 seperate professions to the highest degree. >>

SHE DID NOT NEED TO MASTER COMMANDING A STARSHIP TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE.
She just stood watch now and then.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 03:09:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Sound like a police state to me. So much for the rule of law. This assumes in the Aristotelian sense that the captains must be of such superior virtu that they effectively superced the necessity of law. WADS!>>

Laws and a military order are two completely diffrent things.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 03:11:38 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<For further proof of how rediculous this assertion is, read Machiavelli(Discorsi) on the role of commanders. You have it backwards my friend.>>

I was refering to how Starfleet views things, if you don’t like it, I really don’t care.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-02 03:17:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The british let us use Hong Kong, the Japanese Okinawa, but they don’t get our nuke codes, no matter what great guys the officers might be personally, or how much we trust them on a personal level. WADS!>>

There is a diffrence on giving up some land on which to build a base, and giving up a space station. A space station is a ship that does not move, so the only diffrence bewteen DS9 and the Defiant is that one can move and the other does not. A US military base on Okinawa is still a US base. DS9 is a Bajoran station that is just run partly by Starfleet. Also, the reason that Starfleet is their in the first place is because Bajor wants in the Federation, it’s a little closer than just an alliance.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-02 03:20:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Standing watch and handling emergencies is what ensigns are for. WADS!>>

Not in Starfleet. The only people on the Enterprise that could stand watch are Picard, Riker, Data, LaForge (though he stopped when he became chief engeneer), Worf, and occasionaly Crusher or Troi. That’s it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 03:21:52 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<EVER HEARD OF SARCASM????????? >>

Sarcasm is usally well done, you need practice.

 

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:multi-talented personnel
Date: 96-07-02 03:23:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Basically, you’d have to be dealing with an organization of Renaissance people, or genius we can’t even begin to comprehend. Now, these are bright people, but come on. It’s a wonderful fantasy — that’s what suspension of disbelief is all about — but a fantasy is all it is.>>

How about some examples from the show, it is hard to debate generalities.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Save B5
Date: 96-07-02 07:16:56 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

<<Pten, a division of warner brothers may cancel Babylon 5 if we don’t support
it. send letters via snailmail to the pten executive comittee at>>

Dont bother. B5 has been renewed!

 
Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-02 07:17:51 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

<<<Well, I found that if you are too critical of any particular episode, they start saying things like, “well if you don’t like the show, don’t watch.” Then the uber-forum-meister, Data1701D, descends and tells you not to upset the children.>>>

LOL! How true!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 16:36:11 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<<<Sound like a police state to me. So much for the rule of law. This assumes in the Aristotelian sense that the captains must be of such superior virtu that they effectively superced the necessity of law. WADS!>>

Laws and a military order are two completely diffrent things. >>

You know nothing about military orginization. See my later post regarding Machiavelli. I will post the text in its entirety for your benefit later if you wish.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 16:37:58 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<<<For further proof of how rediculous this assertion is, read Machiavelli(Discorsi) on the role of commanders. You have it backwards my friend.>>

I was refering to how Starfleet views things, if you don’t like it, I really don’t care.>>

To be indifferent on the distinction of right and wrong, truth and falsity, wisdom and stupidity, renders useless all factual knowledge, and is far worse than any mere ignorance.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-02 16:40:20 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<<<Standing watch and handling emergencies is what ensigns are for. WADS!>>

Not in Starfleet. The only people on the Enterprise that could stand watch are Picard, Riker, Data, LaForge (though he stopped when he became chief engeneer), Worf, and occasionaly Crusher or Troi. That’s it.>>

How convenient for the writers and actors! How sad for the intellect of the viewers.
Subj: The Devil’s Advocate
Date: 96-07-02 16:49:29 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

AcDec, I believe you’re pulling our collective legs just to see how wound up you can get us. I find it hard to believe that you can actually believe all this drivel you have been posting. Thanks for the many laughs you have given me.

Don

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 19:32:52 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Laws and a military order are two completely diffrent things.>>
Well, look at society today…………………… Well what did it look like.
Oh gee, maybe they shouldn’t be so different.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 19:38:39 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Sarcasm is usally well done, you need practice.>>
Well, yea, I know it must be real easy for Dumb #@!%^& like you to use sarcasm on a computer when you can’t use pitch changes or physical gestures.
But nice try any way Dumb #@!%^

 

Subj: Re:The Devil’s Advocate
Date: 96-07-02 19:40:55 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<AcDec, I believe you’re pulling our collective legs just to see how wound up you can get us. I find it hard to believe that you can actually believe all this drivel you have been posting. Thanks for the many laughs you have given me.>>
Good point Don!

Subj: Re:DS9
Date: 96-07-02 21:40:22 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Sherry,

I know what you mean about not having enough time in the day to read all the books I have piled up, I have stacks of books I’ve been meaning to read but just haven’t gotten around to yet. Though I am reading the Stephen King book the Green Mile because each book is small and a VERY easy read, They are all really good but I liked Part four the best so far. The DS9 book of INVASION looks really well done from the excerpt I read in INVASION Book two in the TNG section of this series, It looks like a very well done time travel story and I loved what I read in the excerpt I hope you gave it a try.
JJC III

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JJC III

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-02 22:05:51 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

CKEK,

No, the darleks were lame robots on wheels with one ugly humanoid in a wheelchair like contraption, The borg on the other hand are the ultimate melding of human and machine that created a cold souless calculating race that has no other purpose then to dominate and control other races and their technology. The borg are nothing like the darleks. The Borg are a helluva lot better then some sporadically seen space spiders I could mention.

JJC III

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-02 22:13:24 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

CHEK,

Major Kira is just that a MAJOR, She has every right to be on the Defiant when it’s her Planet that’s going to be the targets for attacks because of the wormhole. It’s her job as a Bajoran major to play a commanding and leadership role in whatever operation the Federation proposes that affect the station or Bajor, Because it is their sector of space after all. The Federation is just minding the store because of the wormhole, Which is what they should be doing for security reasons and for the protection of the Alpha quadrant.

JJC III

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-02 22:19:33 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Archer,

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

Don’t let a few people on the Trek boards scare you away, If you have a valid problem with Trek state it. But don’t whine about it over here when one or two chowderheads gave you some trouble. They gave us guys who are loyal to Trek and don’t mind critical comments a bad name.

JJC III

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 22:23:55 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Troi was a leutinat commander from the first episode. How is she a special case.>>
I could have sworn (without going back to those unwatchable first season episodes) that they established that Troi was not a member of Starfleet. She didn’t even wear the uniform. Any “rank” she had was some kind of honorary dispensation for “counselors.” (“Leah, when you design these things, give us three chairs in the middle of the bridge, for the vital positions of Captain, First Officer, and Ship’s Shrink, because one of them may turn out to be part-psychic and so remotely useful when encountering enemies.”) And she certainly didn’t go to Starfleet Academy, though she had control of the bridge… which, I say again, WAS where all this started.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-02 22:27:02 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Is it just me, or do the Borg (OoooooH! Scaaaaarrry!) just resemble a kind of very lame and uninteresting plagarism of the Daleks.>>
Actually, kind of a cross between the Cybermen (physical) and the Daleks (personality).

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 22:32:46 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Results matter, if a captain disobeys the rules and everything turns out OK, he is fine, if things do not turn out OK then that guy is in big trouble.>>
Which is precisely the unbelievable thing. This is not only extremely unprofessional, but also very childish. We are supposed to be ruled by law, not luck, and this applies to a military organization more than any other institution.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 22:34:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Because G.R. who was in the military, say some things that he thought he could improve on.>>
On the whole, I guess we should all count our lucky stars that he never made general. See last post. Kinda funny, isn’t it, that the crowd who think that society can be perfected always have the most simple-minded, naive ways of going about it?

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-02 22:37:36 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<If the medical practice in the ST universe is still so complex and tasking as to take up so many years of training, it is unlikely that, given the amount of work, research, and continuing education in medicine that she could learn to be a ship commander.>>
In all fairness, Chekjk, is 24th century medicine all that complex? It seems to be mostly point-and-click. Dr. Pulaski was (briefly) believable as a professional and an educated healier. Dr. Crusher never really was, IMHO. Anybody can push the “heal” button on a medical tricorder. (You’ll notice Georgi never trusted himself to that eye operation under her watch the way he was thinking of trusting Dr. P.)

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-02 22:43:14 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Standing watch and handling emergencies is what ensigns are for. WADS!>>
I always thought ensigns were basically cannon-fodder.
“Why a red shirt?” “Because it hides the bl-… Um, because it’s really cool-looking.”

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-02 22:52:28 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Results matter, if a captain disobeys the rules and everything turns out OK, he is fine, if things do not turn out OK then that guy is in big trouble.>>
One other point on this: (trying VERY hard to be polite, here, but I have to side with those whose jaws have dropped in amazement) This philosophy is the worship of success, and all but a few societies have rejected it as one of the basest things going. (Nazis notwithstanding)
Of course, none of those societies have been “perfected”, so maybe we’re all wrong and Roddenberry is right.

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-03 00:53:54 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

It is more than a few chowderheads, they will collectively ride your @## out of their page.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:00:46 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You know nothing about military orginization. See my later post regarding Machiavelli. I will post the text in its entirety for your benefit later if you wish.>>

I don’t need the whole text, just tell me what the POINT is.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-03 01:05:14 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<How convenient for the writers and actors! How sad for the intellect of the viewers.>>

The Enterprise uses an 8 hour shift. If you just used the top three in the chain of command, (Picard, Riker, Data) each officer would have 16 hours bewteen shifts. The reason Worf, Troi, or Crusher stand watch, is to give the other guys some rest. How is this sad, to the intellect of the viewers.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Devil’s Advocate
Date: 96-07-03 01:06:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<AcDec, I believe you’re pulling our collective legs just to see how wound up you can get us. I find it hard to believe that you can actually believe all this drivel you have been posting. Thanks for the many laughs you have given me.>>

I doubt it, you just don’t like it when somone brings forward the FACTS that might interfere in your own little Trek-bashing schemes.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:08:05 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Well, look at society today…………………… Well what did it look like.
Oh gee, maybe they shouldn’t be so different. >>

That has to be one of the most in-decipherable sentences I have ever read. Please explain your point.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:09:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Well, yea, I know it must be real easy for Dumb #@!%^& like you to use sarcasm on a computer when you can’t use pitch changes or physical gestures.
But nice try any way Dumb #@!%^>>

You do know what :) means, don’t you?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:13:26 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I could have sworn (without going back to those unwatchable first season episodes) that they established that Troi was not a member of Starfleet. She didn’t even wear the uniform. Any “rank” she had was some kind of honorary dispensation for “counselors.” (“Leah, when you design these things, give us three chairs in the middle of the bridge, for the vital positions of Captain, First Officer, and Ship’s Shrink, because one of them may turn out to be part-psychic and so remotely useful when encountering enemies.”) And she certainly didn’t go to Starfleet Academy, though she had control of the bridge… which, I say again, WAS where all this started.>>

Sorry, but her first unifor had the Leutinant Commander ensignia on it (“Encounter at Farpoint”) She has also been refered to as commander many times, and her biographical data seen in (“Conundrum”) also shows her rank. She did got to the academy.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:20:18 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Which is precisely the unbelievable thing. This is not only extremely unprofessional, but also very childish. We are supposed to be ruled by law, not luck, and this applies to a military organization more than any other institution.>>

Here is a real-life scenario. It’s the Gulf war, and you command a Patriot missle battery. You have just recieved orders to immediatly fall back 10 miles, right when you are about to go you see a scud heading for a base housing 500 troops. Do you follow the order, or act on you own initiative? As Picard said, too many atracities have been justified, because you were just following orders. A suspect you think Kirk should have let the probe in STIV destroy the world, rather than dis-obey an order from the president to stay away from the planet?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 01:23:09 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<This philosophy is the worship of success, and all but a few societies have rejected it as one of the basest things going. (Nazis notwithstanding)>>

You are seriously contradicting you self w/ this one. It was the Nazi soilders that were “just following orders”. The world could have used some disobediance there.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-03 01:36:08 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< The salient point is AcDec that unless in ST it only takes about one month to complete all of medical school, no human being could have the time and energy to be both a competent doctor and ship commander.>>

Hmmm. Brings to mind a story named “Little Black Bag,” in which all the medical instruments from the future were so foolproof that ANYBODY, no matter how mentally “slow,” could be a competant doctor.

Maybe Beverly C. had time to study captaincy after all…
Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-03 03:25:33 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The reason Worf, Troi, or Crusher stand watch, is to give the other guys some rest. How is this sad, to the intellect of the viewers.>>
I think the point is that the most nameless Ensign, having had four years of Starfleet command training, having taken Kobayashi Maru etc, is more qualified than Troi or Crusher. I for one have nothing against Worf (except his on-again-off-again status with the Klingons).

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 03:37:10 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<It was the Nazi soilders that were “just following orders”. The world could have used some disobediance there.>>
I’m not talking about the rank-and-file (who were mostly NOT Nazis, incidentally). I’m talking of the Nazi philosophy and its whole origins in Germanic tradition, notably Wagner. This German tradition was the worship of success: “We are going to win, therefore we are in the right.”
See, for instance, Wagner’s own comments on his (otherwise incomprehensible) saga Der Ring Des Niebelung: “The progress of the whole drama shows the necessity of recognizing and submitting to the change, the diversity, the multiplicity, the eternal novelty, of the Real. Wotan rises to the tragic height of willing his own downfall. This is all we have to learn from the history of Man – to will the necessity and ourselves to bring it to pass.” In other words, this is going to happen, therefore this ought to happen. In Wagner it may sound innocent enough… but it does lead directly to the philosophy of Himmler. And, curiously enough, to a lesser degree, the humanism (his word) of Gene Roddenberry. (This is not to equate either him or Wagner with the Nazis by any stretch… I happen to like Wagner and Roddenberry’s work; I just think that as philosophers they were decent artists.)
In other words, Seargent Shultz may have been “just obeying orders”… but come on, we all love Shultz, and he was by no stretch this highminded.

Subj: Re:The Devil’s Advocate
Date: 96-07-03 17:19:25 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<I doubt it, you just don’t like it when somone brings forward the FACTS that might interfere in your own little Trek-bashing schemes.

–AcDec>

So, now I’m a basher for bringing up a few points I don’t agree with on Trek? I used to enjoy watching Trek, until discussing inconsistencies and downright reversals on these shows by the writers and having Trekkies defend every one of them to the death. Its not enetertainment to these people, its the cult of Roddenberry and his vision of the future. I don’t know about you but i’m not running any schemes, i cruise the boards only commenting when I find something I strongly agree or disagree on. Glad to know you thingk so highly of me.

Don
Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-03 19:01:34 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<No, the darleks were lame robots on wheels with one ugly humanoid in a wheelchair like contraption, The borg on the other hand are the ultimate melding of human and machine that created a cold souless calculating race that has no other purpose then to dominate and control other races and their technology. The borg are nothing like the darleks. The Borg are a helluva lot better then some sporadically seen space spiders I could mention.>>

As Socrates would say, “How well said you demonic man! And indeed it is well said if only SF characters derived their complexity of character from production values, and that writing and concept were irrelevant. The prime difference is that the Daleks could not be conquered so easily by weak humans as the Borg on the other show (WADS!)
If the borg are so menacing, why are they resorting to yet another lame time travel story for the Borg’s attempt to conquer the federation. Considering what 1 Borg cube could do, why don’t they just bring 10 cubes this time and finish off the stupid human monkeys. Or has the borgs 10,000 years of constant adaptation, and universe of knowledge suddenly failed them. Actually I think the writers mental faculties have failed thatm (W.A.D.S.! What A Dumb Show)

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-03 19:03:49 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Oh I see, So Bosnian and Croation Majors can commandeer our military equipment because it is them who are ultimately defended by our forces.

Hmmmmmmmmm…….

WRITE SOON!!!!!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 19:12:27 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Here is a real-life scenario. It’s the Gulf war, and you command a Patriot missle battery. You have just recieved orders to immediatly fall back 10 miles, right when you are about to go you see a scud heading for a base housing 500 troops. Do you follow the order, or act on you own initiative? As Picard said, too many atracities have been justified, because you were just following orders. A suspect you think Kirk should have let the probe in STIV destroy the world, rather than dis-obey an order from the president to stay away from the planet?>>

Not smart, to counter hostile enemy fire when in position to do so is NEVER a breach of military regulations. A better example in regard to wesley would be for the same Patriot battery commander to promote a local baker to the rank of second Lt. within his unit, even though he is presently at full complement. And in the case of Mr. Worf, if one of his officers went AWOL and, on a drunken rampage, killed a family of civilians , and the commander covered up the details and gave him a reprimand for the AWOL only. You know nothing of the military.

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-03 19:13:46 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Sorry Star, but this aint a trek board, I think B5 has earned a right to consider this B5 territory and people who come to say Trek is better and B5 sucks are visitors who should be banned from these boards he he he he ha ha ha ha ha ah hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-03 19:14:10 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Hmmm. Brings to mind a story named “Little Black Bag,” in which all the medical instruments from the future were so foolproof that ANYBODY, no matter how mentally “slow,” could be a competant doctor.

Maybe Beverly C. had time to study captaincy after all…>>

Then why the Med School and 8+ years?

Subj: Re:The Devil’s Advocate
Date: 96-07-03 20:00:42 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I doubt it, you just don’t like it when somone brings forward the FACTS that might interfere in your own little Trek-bashing schemes.>>

I HIGHLY doubt you have any real facts. Further more if you think we are here to form a plot against your beloved Star Trek, you are badly mistaken. Go ponder that for awhile and try and find some REAL facts!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 20:08:11 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<That has to be one of the most in-decipherable sentences I have ever read. Please explain your point.>>
Okay, but you asked for it, ya putz.
The military is VERY effective in enforcing their rules. Now your thinking of some wise crack about all these military trials. Well that is because it has in the past been somewhat rare for these trials to hit the papers. But then the hit movie A FEW GOOD MEN made an impact and suddenly half A&&ed reporters make it their life. PLUS since civilian socitiety stinks, the new recruits are bound to become a bit worse each year. PLUS people actual get off on all this new court T.V. and other such bull, so it becomes important.

So the truth is that military law is very effective, I figure we could use a few of their tactics.

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-03 23:51:43 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<If the borg are so menacing, why are they resorting to yet another lame time travel story for the Borg’s attempt to conquer the federation. Considering what 1 Borg cube could do, why don’t they just bring 10 cubes this time and finish off the stupid human monkeys. Or has the borgs 10,000 years of constant adaptation, and universe of knowledge suddenly failed them. Actually I think the writers mental faculties have failed thatm (W.A.D.S.! What A Dumb Show)>>

The Borg have never before had a member of the collecteive leave them, and not come back. Picard knows everything the collective knows, and he can use that to destroy them, that is why they need to go back in time, they can’t beat the Fed. w\ Picard around; he knows too much.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-03 23:54:55 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh I see, So Bosnian and Croation Majors can commandeer our military equipment because it is them who are ultimately defended by our forces.>>

The Bajorians, have an application pending for membership into the Federation. There is no way that it will be denied, they just have to wait. We will probably see them get in next season.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-03 23:58:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Not smart, to counter hostile enemy fire when in position to do so is NEVER a breach of military regulations. A better example in regard to wesley would be for the same Patriot battery commander to promote a local baker to the rank of second Lt. within his unit, even though he is presently at full complement. And in the case of Mr. Worf, if one of his officers went AWOL and, on a drunken rampage, killed a family of civilians , and the commander covered up the details and gave him a reprimand for the AWOL only. You know nothing of the military.>>

Picard has complete jurisdiction w\ who he wants on his crew. Worf was on Klingon territory when he killed Duras (who had just killed someone on the Enterprise), and his revenge was totally legal in the eyes of the Klingons. The only crime Picard could site him for is AWOL.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 00:01:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<So the truth is that military law is very effective, I figure we could use a few of their tactics.>>

Sorry to dash your hopes, but we have this little thing called a constitution, it’s kinda important.
Can you say Ollie North?
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-04 00:11:19 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Picard knows everything the collective knows, and he can use that to destroy them, that is why they need to go back in time, they can’t beat the Fed. w\ Picard around; he knows too much.>>
Which, then, gets us back to the issue of all the mega-advanced technology that Picard ought to have learned about (hey, you said “everything” – and if that don’t include the tech, your point is totally invalid) and yet somehow we never see again. (I always wondered why no one ever asked Methusalah how to build a better android, but when it comes to this lost tech point I think we could all go on and on and on and on and on…)
BTW, here’s one I’ve been mulling over lately. Since the treaty of Whatsis is obviously mega-irrelevant to Voyager, why don’t they build their own cloaking device? (Heck, even back at the ranch, Sisko and the gang use the Defiant’s cloaking device in the alpha quadrant all the time now, even though that’s in defiance (aptly-named ship) of their treaty-related deal with the Romulans, and you’d think this would not be the best time to be straining relations with the Romulans. (Oh, wait, I forgot – the Romulans are a minor power now that that extra-fleet that wasn’t supposed to exist got blown up, bringing them down to a mere 100% of their conventional fleet)

…and on and on and on and on…

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-04 00:16:08 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The Bajorians, have an application pending for membership into the Federation. There is no way that it will be denied, they just have to wait. We will probably see them get in next season.>>
I missed something. Last I knew, Little Ms. What-Trek-Thinks-of-Religion had spoken out AGAINST membership. The feds wanted Bajor to be a member but the civilian gov’t wasn’t too interested and then Whinn said no way. (Not counting the one episode where she wanted Sisko to do some dirtywork for her and went all smiles about joining… but this was presumably B.S. on her part.)
I do not remember any references to Bajor’s having submitted an application and the Feds having gotten cold feet. (You think they’d cut through the red tape on this one before Bajor changes its mind… but Bajor’s instability only proves that by TOS Fed rules Bajor is not ready for membership, its strategic position notwithstanding) But then Trek contradicts itself so many times I could really have missed something. Empires have come and gone in a matter of months, enemies have changed from Eurasia to Eastasia and back to Eurasia, so I suppose Bajor could’ve asked for membership off-camera somewhere along the line.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 00:17:06 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Worf was on Klingon territory when he killed Duras (who had just killed someone on the Enterprise)>>
The Enterprise is Klingon territory? I thought it was effectively martial law, subject to Federation rules of Captaincy.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 00:17:24 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

Hey, I have heard of the Constitution, AND the military is bound by the constitution. I might say they follow it better than the general public.
RONPEGT
PS
Ollie North’s saving grace was ONLY that he was following orders.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 00:29:20 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Without opening up a can of worms, the byzantine Iran-Contra deal is still not definitively considered illegal (unlike, say, misusing the FBI to get files on your political enemies, lying to Congress, letting interns see sensitive information, having a staff a majority of which can’t pass security checks, lying to Congress, lowering regulations on chicken inspection for kickbacks, pulling a real estate scam, manipulating the cattle futures market, framing Travel Office personnel of criminal charges as an excuse to fire them, intimidating investigative reporters in Arkansas into dropping a story, murder a la the movie Heathers, obstruction of justice, lying to Congress…)
So anyone who says that Ollie North’s chief crime was lying to Congress had better be consistent about losing virtually every occupant in the current White House… from the top, past her husband, down to the lowest ranks.

Yes, we do have a Constitution. Or at least we used to. All we really have these days is a document that says something about the federal government being able to do anything it likes because it’s “regulating instate commerce.”

Now back to Trek-bashing, please?

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 11:03:25 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Picard has complete jurisdiction w\ who he wants on his crew. Worf was on Klingon territory when he killed Duras (who had just killed someone on the Enterprise), and his revenge was totally legal in the eyes of the Klingons. The only crime Picard could site him for is AWOL.>>

His jurisdiction is exactly the same as that of a sub commander, Said commander cannot, at full complement, field promote a baker to ensign. As for your territorial assertion, this is rediculous. The uniform code of military justice extends to all personell regardless af the territory any act was committed. Thus officers will be punished for criminal acts even if the society of the country in which it was committed does not recognize the act as such. This principle is necessary if only from the standpoint of maintaing troop discipline. Moreover Worf also was (Remember) guilty of :
Dereliction of Duty (Didin’t set a security alert)
AWOL(Took off that badge, left ship)
Unauth. use of Transporter (That is actually sopposed to be a breach on ST)
Conduct Unbecoming (Challenging Duras to fight, if this was OK then why the reprimand on this issue?)
Disobeying Direct Order From Superior (Riker: Worf! DONT!)
Breaking and Entering into consular property (Was he invited on that Klinon ship? An officer would spend 5+ years in leavenworth just for this)
Murder of Person With Diplomatic Immunity (He breaks into the embassy, and kills the ambassador, even if the country thinks its OK, this is a major diplomatic disater as other nations will question the safety of their diplomatic personnell versus loose cannon military personnell due to this breach of one of the most sacred precepts of diplomacy without punishment of the offending party)

You are a bizarre man I know, but even you must see the silly edifice of half-conceived, and poorly executed thought that underpins the entire TNG universe. If you do not then you are neither evil nor foolish, but simply as love is blind, delusional.
Subj: AcDec: Answer this one…
Date: 96-07-04 13:48:08 EDT
From: AustinMay
Posted on: America Online

ok AcDec, *WHY* or how in the world does the Voyager have all that power to run holodecks yet not enough for essentials like replicators? ( How many times are they going to run the holdeck run amok story ? )
Could it be that they needed a role for Neelix to play? And how did Kes become a full fledged nurse on a such of mostly *human* not whatever race she is?
The ST universe has so many holes its funny.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 20:31:26 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<So the truth is that military law is very effective, I figure we could use a few of their tactics.>>

<<Sorry to dash your hopes, but we have this little thing called a constitution, it’s kinda important.
Can you say Ollie North?>>

No, see you don’t get it. I said that we could use a FEW of their tactics, such as, well gee, let’s see. Our police officers face foreign made assault rifles with standard issue sidearms. Strange huh? Give them some decent tools to use against crime. Make the Police an intimidation to the criminals, scare em a bit, and when they screw up, get a somewhat professional witness, and especially a somewhat decent jury. And come on, let’s review some of these laws. The constitution says we have the freedom of speach, so I don’t think the founders of this country would be too humiliated if we revised the Constitution a bit. Besides we have already forgotten the one phrase that should bind our politicians to their word. (We the people of the United States of America) If we can forget that, we might as well change a few other things.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 20:34:57 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Hey, I have heard of the Constitution, AND the military is bound by the constitution. I might say they follow it better than the general public.
RONPEGT
PS
Ollie North’s saving grace was ONLY that he was following orders.>>
Exactly my point RONPEGT, you are a very cool guy, not that that means much to ya, heck ya might be a girl that is real offended I called you a guy.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-04 20:55:04 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Sisko and the gang use the Defiant’s cloaking device in the alpha quadrant all the time now, even though that’s in defiance (aptly-named ship) of their treaty-related deal with the Romulans, and you’d think this would not be the best time to be straining relations with the Romulans. (Oh, wait, I forgot – the Romulans are a minor power now that that extra-fleet that wasn’t supposed to exist got blown up, bringing them down to a mere 100% of their conventional fleet)>>

They only used the cloak in the alpha quad once or twice, and since the romulans intelligence network is in shambles, I doubt they know about it. They reason that the Romulans are considered less of a threat, is because they probably have to many problems at home after the destruction of their version of the Gestapo.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh
Date: 96-07-04 20:58:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I do not remember any references to Bajor’s having submitted an application and the Feds having gotten cold feet. (You think they’d cut through the red tape on this one before Bajor changes its mind… but Bajor’s instability only proves that by TOS Fed rules Bajor is not ready for membership, its strategic position notwithstanding) But then Trek contradicts itself so many times I could really have missed something. Empires have come and gone in a matter of months, enemies have changed from Eurasia to Eastasia

and back to Eurasia, so I suppose Bajor could’ve asked for membership off-camera somewhere along the line.>>

The Kai has been thrown out of the political realm after “Shakaar.” The part about the application came out of some episode last year that I don’t remember the name of. The reason the Fed has not hastened the process was explained as that they did not want to look like they were playing favorites to the Bajorians. A lot of people want into the Fed.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 20:59:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The Enterprise is Klingon territory? I thought it was effectively martial law, subject to Federation rules of Captaincy.>>

Duras was killed on HIS ship.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 21:00:26 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Ollie North’s saving grace was ONLY that he was following orders.>>

That is what the Nazis said.

 

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 21:01:42 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< So anyone who says that Ollie North’s chief crime was lying to Congress had better be consistent about losing virtually every occupant in the current White House… from the top, past her husband, down to the lowest ranks.>>

I have no problem w/ that. Clean them all out. :)

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-04 21:06:32 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<His jurisdiction is exactly the same as that of a sub commander, Said commander cannot, at full complement, field promote a baker to ensign. As for your territorial assertion, this is rediculous. The uniform code of military justice extends to all personell regardless af the territory any act was committed. Thus officers will be punished for criminal acts even if the society of the country in which it was committed does not recognize the act as such. This principle is necessary if only from the standpoint of maintaing troop discipline. Moreover Worf also was (Remember) guilty of :
Dereliction of Duty (Didin’t set a security alert)
AWOL(Took off that badge, left ship)
Unauth. use of Transporter (That is actually sopposed to be a breach on ST)
Conduct Unbecoming (Challenging Duras to fight, if this was OK then why the reprimand on this issue?)
Disobeying Direct Order From Superior (Riker: Worf! DONT!)
Breaking and Entering into consular property (Was he invited on that Klinon ship? An officer would spend 5+ years in leavenworth just for this)
Murder of Person With Diplomatic Immunity (He breaks into the embassy, and kills the ambassador, even if the country thinks its OK, this is a major diplomatic disater as other nations will question the safety of their diplomatic personnell versus loose cannon military personnell due to this breach of one of the most sacred precepts of diplomacy without punishment of the offending party)>>

True, if Picard wanted too he could have thrown the book at Worf, he did not, and let him off w/ a repimand. The Klingons would never complain, because to them, what Worf did was not only legal, but honorable. And I doubt Starfleet command would do anything because they sure did not want Duras to become leader.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:multi-talented personnel
Date: 96-07-04 23:44:22 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Geez, AcDec, I thought we had been discussing Troi or Crusher taking command of the ship? What I was trying to point out was that there are not that many people who can handle two different types of jobs competently. If the Federation has two of them on board the Enterprise, well bully for them, but I don’t buy it.

Sherry

Subj: Constitutionality
Date: 96-07-04 23:51:05 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Since this is a “B5″ versus Star Trek board and we brought up the Constitution, I’d just like to draw attention to Sheridan’s constitutional appeal in “Severed Dreams.” Some people on other boards drew attention to the “we have women and children” appeal from Mars colony as being a bit old fashioned, but I especially liked Sheridan drawing attention to the unconstitutionality of the order. It reminds me of the “chain of command” reasoning he used in the eps where Nightwatch was trying to take over security. Although one of these ultimately ended violently, this is good cerebral fighting going on here.

Subj: Re:Green Mile
Date: 96-07-04 23:55:28 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JJC:

Thanks for the review of “Green Mile.” I had read some good reviews of it, but when I got to the library they only had books 2 & 3 in. After attempting to slog my way through “Insomnia,” I was a little worried about even starting “Green Mile.” At first, I thought his cutting it up into 6 books was just a way of writing an even LONGER book, without everyone realizing it. But after seeing the size of the first three, maybe he’s starting to learn less is more. Some of his earlier ones were great. I’m glad to hear from someone besides a critic whose read the new one.

Sherry

Subj: Re:AcDec: Answer this one…
Date: 96-07-05 00:21:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<ok AcDec, *WHY* or how in the world does the Voyager have all that power to run holodecks yet not enough for essentials like replicators? ( How many times are they going to run the holdeck run amok story ? )
Could it be that they needed a role for Neelix to play? And how did Kes become a full fledged nurse on a such of mostly *human* not whatever race she is?
The ST universe has so many holes its funny. >>

ST is made up of 5 shows, TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and VOY, and 7 movies (soon to be eight).
It si unfair to critizise one show, due to another. For the record, I feel that VOY is a horrid show, and is full of crap. I, however feel that DS9 is a wonderfull show, as was some of TNG, and the first two seasons of TOS. They all have diffrent people in controll. Please refrain from asking me Voyager questons, as I don’t watch that show.

—AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 00:27:14 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<No, see you don’t get it. I said that we could use a FEW of their tactics, such as, well gee, let’s see. Our police officers face foreign made assault rifles with standard issue sidearms. Strange huh? Give them some decent tools to use against crime. Make the Police an intimidation to the criminals, scare em a bit, and when they screw up, get a somewhat professional witness, and especially a somewhat decent jury. And come on, let’s review some of these laws. The constitution says we have the freedom of speach, so I don’t think the founders of this country would be too humiliated if we revised the Constitution a bit. Besides we have already forgotten the one phrase that should bind our politicians to their word. (We the people of the United States of America) If we can forget that, we might as well change a few other things.>>

I agree that our police should be better equiped, and they would be if someone would pay for it. TANSTAAFL. How do you garuntee a professional witness? As far as the Juries, there only as good as the prosecutors and defense want them. And why should we screw w/ the constutition even MORE then it has already been?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 01:04:07 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<True, if Picard wanted too he could have thrown the book at Worf, he did not, and let him off w/ a repimand. The Klingons would never complain, because to them, what Worf did was not only legal, but honorable. And I doubt Starfleet command would do anything because they sure did not want Duras to become leader.>>

AcDec, a commander is not allowed to pick and choose whether to “throw the book” at someone for court martial offenses. It is this precice lack of laws, not blind obedience to orders, that leads to most atrocities. This is not the sign of a good commander, but rather of high corruption. And as ST constantly harps on morality and the rule of law it is at best ironic that it conveniently ignores law in such a case.
Moreover, the attitude of the federation to the Duras succession is irrelevant. The breaking of diplomatic immunity would be a crushing blow to the good faith of Starfleet even with diplomatic representatives of planets within the federation. Worf would have to be punished, (and since you have been talking in purely Machivellian, or actually Alcibiadean, terms for the past few boards), if only to assure the other races who might not be as blase as the Klingons about Starfleet personnel murdering their diplomatic representatives in cold blood. Study history please.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-05 01:10:37 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<They only used the cloak in the alpha quad once or twice, and since the romulans intelligence network is in shambles, I doubt they know about it.>>
Well, that makes it all right then. Seriously, where is Starfleet on issues like these? “Oh, I violated the treaty of Whatsis a few times, but the Romulans may not have noticed.”

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 01:12:01 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< The Enterprise is Klingon territory? I thought it was effectively martial law, subject to Federation rules of Captaincy.>>

<<Duras was killed on HIS ship.>>

Fair enough; I forgot the details of this one. (There are some of those eps that I refused to sit through more than once)

 
Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 01:13:26 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<And I doubt Starfleet command would do anything because they sure did not want Duras to become leader.>>
He would’ve been a gift from the gods at this point… (Hey, does anyone seriously think there was ever a REAL Gowron? This explains his eyes from the beginning.)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 01:20:27 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< And why should we screw w/ the constutition even MORE then it has already been?>>
We don’t have to screw with it. We just have to enforce it. Right now we only have two justices of nine on the Supreme Court (Scalia and Thomas) who seriously believe that their job is to determine what is Constitutionally legal, as opposed to what their personal little consciences or agendas would like. (It was such a big, controversial deal when they managed to get 5 of 9 justices to agree that a federal law regulating what local items could and could not be brought into a local school was not, in fact, “regulating interstate commerce.”)
I too liked the fact that Sheridan used Constitutionality as the basis for his decision for severing. (Man, every military base in the country should be breaking with America at this point.) And I find it interesting that most of Picard’s look-the-other-way stuff was justified on the grounds of his personal conscience and/or the situation rather than the rules and Constitution of the Federation (written or unwritten – but let’s talk Prime Directive, shall we?) In the final analysis, Starfleet seems to be govened by “good intentions” rather than Law.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-05 01:24:04 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<They only used the cloak in the alpha quad once or twice, and since the romulans intelligence network is in shambles, I doubt they know about it. They reason that the Romulans are considered less of a threat, is because they probably have to many problems at home after the destruction of their version of the Gestapo.>>

Funny and boring thing about DS9, it’s always everybody else who is in a shambles. Booooorrrrinnnggg!!!!!!! WADS!

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 11:58:08 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Moreover, the attitude of the federation to the Duras succession is irrelevant. The breaking of diplomatic immunity would be a crushing blow to the good faith of Starfleet even with diplomatic representatives of planets within the federation. Worf would have to be punished, (and since you have been talking in purely Machivellian, or actually Alcibiadean, terms for the past few boards), if only to assure the other races who might not be as blase as the Klingons about Starfleet personnel murdering their diplomatic representatives in cold blood. Study history please.>>

One, it was not murder, it was a deul. There is nothing new about deuls, Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel, and I did not see him get in trouble. The only crimes that Worf commited were in leaving the ship. The duel was perfectly legal.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-05 12:00:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Well, that makes it all right then. Seriously, where is Starfleet on issues like these? “Oh, I violated the treaty of Whatsis a few times, but the Romulans may not have noticed.”>>

It’s funny, but the same people that complain that the people in Trek don’t act human do a 180 and attack them when they DO act human.
–AcDec <—— shaking head in confusion

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-05 12:06:11 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Funny and boring thing about DS9, it’s always everybody else who is in a shambles. Booooorrrrinnnggg!!!!!!! WADS!>>

Up untill the beganing of this season the station itself was in shambles. Currently Odo, and Quarks personal lives are pretty messed up. And the reason the Roms and Cardies are messed up is that they relied on their “gestapo” to keep order on their worlds, and those guys got suckered by the Dominion.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-05 13:26:25 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<<Hmmm. Brings to mind a story named “Little Black Bag,” in which all the medical instruments from the future were so foolproof that ANYBODY, no matter how mentally “slow,” could be a competant doctor.

Maybe Beverly C. had time to study captaincy after all…>>

<< Then why the Med School and 8+ years? >>

It took her that long to learn the medical technobabble.

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-05 13:35:12 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

Regarding why they don’t build a cloaking device on Voyager…

<<They only used the cloak in the alpha quad once or twice, and since the romulans intelligence network is in shambles, I doubt they know about it.>>
<< Well, that makes it all right then. Seriously, where is Starfleet on issues like these? “Oh, I violated the treaty of Whatsis a few times, but the Romulans may not have noticed.” >>

It seems that a central theme of ST:Voyager is “Follow the Rules!” When the Star Fleet and Maquis joined together, it was made very clear that it would only be “acceptable” if they functioned as an all Star Fleet ship. Every once in a while, somebody (usually from the Maquis, but occasionally even Tuvok) suggests bending the rules a little, and Janeway gets on her high horse about the chain of command, or the Prime Directive, etc. And then that somebody goes behind her back and does the “bad” thing anyway — which almost ALWAYS turns out a disaster. Then Janeway says, “See, I told you so. That’s why we have these rules in the first place. Now, don’t do it again!”

Good or bad as a concept, it has made for a tedious show.
Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 14:11:43 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Ollie North’s saving grace was ONLY that he was following orders.>>

<<That is what the Nazis said.>>
No it’s not.

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 14:20:34 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I agree that our police should be better equiped, and they would be if someone would pay for it. TANSTAAFL. How do you garuntee a professional witness? As far as the Juries, there only as good as the prosecutors and defense want them. And why should we screw w/ the constutition even MORE then it has already been?>>

I think your point about the jury is wrong though, yes the jury is there to be persuaded by the counselors but they are also supposed to watch very closely and take notes, such as reactions,, and the different points the attourneys may make. Take a look at our Juries, a bunch of people bent out of shape, forgetting the facts and evidence and paying more attention to their damn civil rights. We need to have, and I mean this literally, a PROFFESSIONAL JURY. The Gov. forgot, they work for US, we don’t work for them. The constitution does not say, (we the corrupt government officials busy with our own bull Sh** political agendas)

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 17:42:17 EDT
From: Timbo13
Posted on: America Online

Following orders was the precise phrase used by captured nazis, both at Nuremberg and elsewhere.

Timbo13

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-05 18:08:51 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>>Major Kira is just that a MAJOR, She has every right to be on the Defiant when it’s her Planet that’s going to be the targets for attacks because of the wormhole. It’s her job as a Bajoran major to play a commanding and leadership role in whatever operation the Federation proposes that affect the station or Bajor, Because it is their sector of space after all. The Federation is just minding the store because of the wormhole, Which is what they should be doing for security reasons and for the protection of the Alpha quadrant.

JJC III<<<

Speaking of protecting the Alpha quadrant, how come only one station(which can be easily bypassed) and one ship is all that stands between the Dominion and their Gem Haddar allies and Federation space? The Dominion could overwhelm the station and use it as a platform to conquer the Alpha quad OR just ignore it and go straight to earth. Logical strategic/military planning have NEVER been a part of the ST universe…

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 19:41:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<No it’s not.>>
Ever hear of the Neuromberg (sp?) trial?

 
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 19:45:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<. We need to have, and I mean this literally, a PROFFESSIONAL JURY>>

What in the world would a profesional jury be. If you mean made up of people who actually recieved an education, then, yes I agree. Or do you mean that being a job you go to school for, and is hired like the court reporter?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-05 19:49:09 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Speaking of protecting the Alpha quadrant, how come only one station(which can be easily bypassed) and one ship is all that stands between the Dominion and their Gem Haddar allies and Federation space? The Dominion could overwhelm the station and use it as a platform to conquer the Alpha quad OR just ignore it and go straight to earth. Logical strategic/military planning have NEVER been a part of the ST universe…>>

It is siting right in front of the worhole, and we did see that station take on an entire Klingon fleet. The combo of the Station, Defiant, and the Bajorian militia should be able to hold off any attack for a while. For that matter, why is B5 not surronded by Vorlon cruisers? If 10 battlecrabs suddenly phased in around B5, it would look like the barbeque we ate for dinner last night in no time flat.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 23:19:44 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

To answer that I’m a guy! AND, card carring member of the KISS army.
“Edge begins with self….”
–Gene Simmons

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-05 23:21:50 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

That was THEIR only saving grace, so they get better seats in Hell, than Hitler.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:Constitutionality
Date: 96-07-05 23:24:32 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

Sheridan’s acts, would be constitutional in our society. This keeps Reno……. OH, forgot she has the ATF, would need the army too.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 00:12:07 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Following orders was the precise phrase used by captured nazis, both at Nuremberg and elsewhere.>>

Your right, I thought he was reffering to a Nazi quote on Ollie North, this makes more sense though. Hey did you know that a lot of those guys, including Herman Goering cried upon seeing footage of some of the death camps. Maybe they really didn’t know, he he, ya right.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 00:14:30 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<What in the world would a profesional jury be. If you mean made up of people who actually recieved an education, then, yes I agree. Or do you mean that being a job you go to school for, and is hired like the court reporter?>>

Precisely, jeeze, what do you suppose the term literally means. Yes, you become a pro at something either when you have recieved an education on it or you have been doing it for a very long time.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 00:15:36 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<To answer that I’m a guy! AND, card carring member of the KISS army.
“Edge begins with self….”
–Gene Simmons>>

Huh?

CRC

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 01:05:37 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<One, it was not murder, it was a deul. There is nothing new about deuls, Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel, and I did not see him get in trouble. The only crimes that Worf commited were in leaving the ship. The duel was perfectly legal.>>

It is a duel only if such combats are recognized as such under starfleet military justice, and this rule must be equally valid in all places. Therefore, by your reasoning, duels are not illegal, per se, on the enterprise. WADS!

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-06 01:11:00 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<< For that matter, why is B5 not surronded by Vorlon cruisers?>>

Because the vorlons simply don’t want to, and nobody can, or dares, force them.
<<If 10 battlecrabs suddenly phased in around B5, it would look like the barbeque we ate for dinner last night in no time flat.>>

Yes it would. Isn’t that cool, a show in which the “good guys” are actually in real danger! WADS!

Subj: DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!!!
Date: 96-07-06 01:52:19 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>It is siting right in front of the worhole, and we did see that station take on an entire Klingon fleet. The combo of the Station, Defiant, and the Bajorian militia should be able to hold off any attack for a while. For that matter, why is B5 not surronded by Vorlon cruisers? If 10 battlecrabs suddenly phased in around B5, it would look like the barbeque we ate for dinner last night in no time flat.

–AcDec<<

You conveniently missed my other option…IGNORE the station. I dont care if its sitting in front of the Wormhole, going to warp as soon as they drop out of the ‘hole should evade any incoming fire from the station, not that they would even fire on the Gem Haddar to begin with. Also the Klingons didnt bring over a hundred ships like the Gem Haddar did when they ambushed the Cardassian/Romulan task force. As for B5 not being surrounded by Vorlon cruisers, they have stated a number of times that their time hadn’t come yet to get involved and besides there are at least a dozen other ships from different races protecting B5. Unlike DS9.

P.S. Bajoran militia vs. Gem Haddar? Give me a break…

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 04:16:55 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<It’s funny, but the same people that complain that the people in Trek don’t act human do a 180 and attack them when they DO act human.>>
Maybe I should have clarified this. I have no problem with Sisko doing what he did. He is IMHO the most believable post-TOS leader by far of the whole gang. Certainly the most human. I have a problem with some of Sisko’s decisions (like those various occasions where the whole command staff just hops off into the g-q to pull Odo out of a war zone, leaving DS9 virtually defenseless), but I do not have a problem with Sisko’s decision. (It was an incredibly STUPID treaty and anyone with a brain ought to ignore it. What was Riker smoking?)
What I do have a problem with is his not catching hell from Starfleet for these decisions. As has been pointed out, Picard is a much better example when it comes to acting grossly unprofessional (and never being called on it except for during 20 minute trials where everything is dropped because the prosecutor throws a hissy fit), but Sisko will also serve admirably. I have no problems with Sisko’s character (indeed, all the DS9 characters except Keiko are very good ones, if they’d just put them through their paces once in awhile), but I do have a problem with Starfleet. How can the treaty be such a big deal in one episode that a guy’s career is ruined because of it, and no big deal at all in another simply because they weren’t caught? If Starfleet were a corrupt institution, I could possibly believe it, but they’ve been telling us at least since “The Turnabout Intruder” that Starfleet simply doesn’t do naughty stuff.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 04:17:38 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Currently Odo, and Quarks personal lives are pretty messed up.>>
In EXACTLY the same way… (as Worf’s was twice and as Garrack’s is and…)

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 04:21:09 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<It seems that a central theme of ST:Voyager is “Follow the Rules!” When the Star Fleet and Maquis joined together, it was made very clear that it would only be “acceptable” if they functioned as an all Star Fleet ship. Every once in a while, somebody (usually from the Maquis, but occasionally even Tuvok) suggests bending the rules a little, and Janeway gets on her high horse about the chain of command, or the Prime Directive, etc. And then that somebody goes behind her back and does the “bad” thing anyway — which almost ALWAYS turns out a disaster. Then Janeway says, “See, I told you so. That’s why we have these rules in the first place. Now, don’t do it again!”>>
That occurred to me too, but I thought it was pretty much out the window following ep’s like “Make a deal??? With the Kazon????” Besides, as DS9 points out, the spirit of that treaty refers only to the Alpha-quadrant. I don’t think the Romulans would really mind. (Gee, someone should’ve asked them that time with the wormhole… speaking of which, why didn’t they just USE IT!!!!!! Gee, we’d be 20 years early. BFD! Wait 2 episodes for the next occurrence of time travel or cryongenics.)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 04:26:27 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<We need to have, and I mean this literally, a PROFFESSIONAL JURY. >>
CRC, I sympathize, but don’t you think this would really be a step in the wrong direction? What we need are fewer “professionals” in such things. Look how quickly the House (previously the most crooked organization in America) cleaned up its act when they threw out all the veterans and brought it a lot of idealistic freshmen. (Most of whom are pretty disgusted by now, incidentally – how do you negotiate in good faith a guy who steals your idea, espouses it enthusiastically like no one’s thought of it before, and then, when you pass it, vetoes it as “extreme”?)
The jury system may be pretty screwed up, but consider that possibly we’re *supposed* to be getting so disgusted with it that we take power away from the common people? History shows that we rarely get back the rights we surrender.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-06 04:29:23 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Speaking of protecting the Alpha quadrant, how come only one station(which can be easily bypassed) and one ship is all that stands between the Dominion and their Gem Haddar allies and Federation space?>>
I still get a kick out of the cloaking device “net” that Picard set up on the (presumably miniscule) Klingon-Romulan border. Um… how about going around it? Oh, the baddies *never* take their invisible ships into unauthorized space…
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Sela? She was supposed to be a recurring character but we never saw her again. Pity, that. Never could stand that actress until the Enterprise-C storyline.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 15:53:29 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<It is a duel only if such combats are recognized as such under starfleet military justice, and this rule must be equally valid in all places. Therefore, by your reasoning, duels are not illegal, per se, on the enterprise. WADS!>>

The rule probably goes something like this. When away from the ship you must obey the law of the land. Worf obeyed the law of the land on that Klingon ship. Look at DS9’s “Blood Oath”. Sisko knew that Dax was going out to kill someone, but it was not in Federation territory.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-06 15:55:19 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes it would. Isn’t that cool, a show in which the “good guys” are actually in real danger! WADS!>>

The Shadows must know by now, that the resistance is based on B5, so why have they not toasted it? What, B5 is not perfect either?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-06 16:00:42 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You conveniently missed my other option…IGNORE the station. I dont care if its sitting in front of the Wormhole, going to warp as soon as they drop out of the ‘hole should evade any incoming fire from the station, not that they would even fire on the Gem Haddar to begin with. Also the Klingons didnt bring over a hundred ships like the Gem Haddar did when they ambushed the Cardassian/Romulan task force. As for B5 not being surrounded by Vorlon cruisers, they have stated a number of times that their time hadn’t come yet to get involved and besides there are at least a dozen other ships from different races protecting B5. Unlike DS9.>>

As soon as one ship came through the whole they would just start launching torps at anything that came through. Some ships would make it through, but a lot would not.

Young races agianst the Shadows is even dumber than the Bajorian militia against the Jem’Hadar. And the Vorlons have gotten involved.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 16:02:41 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< How can the treaty be such a big deal in one episode that a guy’s career is ruined because of it, and no big deal at all in another simply because they weren’t caught? If Starfleet were a corrupt institution, I could possibly believe it, but they’ve been telling us at least since “The Turnabout Intruder” that Starfleet simply doesn’t do naughty stuff.>>

Simple answer, Sisko did not tell Starfleet command that he did it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 16:05:21 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< In EXACTLY the same way… (as Worf’s was twice and as Garrack’s is and…)>>

Sheridan, Ivonava, and Garibaldi are all probably considered traitors by most of the people on Earth also.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-06 16:18:24 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<CRC, I sympathize, but don’t you think this would really be a step in the wrong direction? What we need are fewer “professionals” in such things. Look how quickly the House (previously the most crooked organization in America) cleaned up its act when they threw out all the veterans and brought it a lot of idealistic freshmen. (Most of whom are pretty disgusted by now, incidentally – how do you negotiate in good faith a guy who steals your idea, espouses it enthusiastically like no one’s thought of it before, and then, when you pass it, vetoes it as “extreme”?)
The jury system may be pretty screwed up, but consider that possibly we’re *supposed* to be getting so disgusted with it that we take power away from the common people? History shows that we rarely get back the rights we surrender.>>

You are right mytho, if the people of the nation were involved in major decisions, perhaps the proffessionals, like say the politicians would compromise with each other in order to give us decent options. I think that Franklin forgot to clarify a few things in the constitution and that is what hurts us today, he forgot to clarify that the gov. works for the people, but most of all we work together to make the right decision(Checks and balances). For what it’s worth I haven’t surrendered any of my rights, nor will I ever. I will not join an anti-government organization simply because I am pro government, I just don’t like poloticians. But I will stand up to the government with the Constitution in my right hand and a small Statue of Liberty in the left, shouting the names of some of the most famous of our founders if it should ever come down to that because that is the government that I believe in. The old continentals, the army under Washington truly understood what liberty meant, and they fought for it, but we seemed to have forgotten. That sucks.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 16:20:22 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Sheridan, Ivonava, and Garibaldi are all probably considered traitors by most of the people on Earth also.>>

If that were true there would have been no need for Martial law would there have? Jeeze!

CRC

 

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-06 17:39:19 EDT
From: Ml10
Posted on: America Online

<<<<WARNING SPOILERS BELOW>>>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>>>>>
It is siting right in front of the worhole, and we did see that station take on an entire Klingon fleet. The combo of the Station, Defiant, and the Bajorian militia should be able to hold off any attack for a while. For that matter, why is B5 not surronded by Vorlon cruisers? If 10 battlecrabs suddenly phased in around B5, it would look like the barbeque we ate for dinner last night in no time flat.
<<<<<<<
At the Chicago ComicCon, in one of the clips that jms showed us, Shadow Battle Crabs DO appear around B5.

ml10
ML10
ML!)

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-06 22:46:58 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<If that were true there would have been no need for Martial law would there have? Jeeze!>>

I’m pretty sure that they mentioned in an episode that the majoraty of the people are glad that they have martial law. Something about there being less crime and stuff.
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-06 23:22:28 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<The Shadows must know by now, that the resistance is based on B5, so why have they not toasted it? What, B5 is not perfect either?>>

It has already been shown that the shadows WILL toast B5, and everybody on board will die horrible lingering deaths. At least I hope so. That would be a neat ending!

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-07 00:33:51 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

I am geussing that the death you referr to is in War Without End, and/or Babylon Squared. In that case, that fate has been avoided for the moment, whose to say the station won’t take one for the team yet though.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:professional juries
Date: 96-07-07 00:35:28 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

I used to wonder why we didn’t have a professional jury system like France does. But having served on a couple of juries, I wouldn’t give back the experiences — one good, one not so good, both disturbing in their own ways. There is no guarantee that professional juries would not become corrupt (as we in NYC have seen with school boards, and there’s much less immediately at stake with school boards), nor that they would not become political entities unto themselves, even with a system that would review cases (which we currently have with the courts of appeal).

But for me the most compelling argument for ordinary citizens serving as jury members is that it involves them up close and personal in their criminal justice system (like it or not) and democracy as a whole. It may sound corny, but I don’t do all that much for my community as a whole except for not littering, giving blood and serving on a jury now and again, and I suspect most of the people I know are in the same boat. We tend to speak of “government” like it’s some separate entity, but the fact of the matter is, even though we don’t always feel like it, the government is us (we, the people). There’s one eps in B5 where Nightwatch claims something to the effect that sedition comes in small packages; so does democracy.

Besides, aside from some recent high-profile cases, my feeling is that most juries come to good, intelligent conclusions.

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 01:31:45 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>As soon as one ship came through the whole they would just start launching torps at anything that came through. Some ships would make it through, but a lot would not.<<<<
So photon torpedos travel faster than light, then?
If the ships come out warping, photon torpedos would not catch them.

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 01:38:36 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>If the ships come out warping, photon torpedos would not catch them.<<

FYI, the nature of the wormhole makes it impossible to travel through it at warp speed. Therefore, a ship would have to clear the wormhole before jumping to warp, giving DS9 personnel time to fire at them.

Randy

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-07 03:42:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The Shadows must know by now, that the resistance is based on B5, so why have they not toasted it? What, B5 is not perfect either?>>
Presumably they don’t have the strength – well, they probably do but presumably they’re unwilling to risk it. In the “alternate” history where they were stronger this is exactly what they did, at the exactly proper point in the storyline for it.
They also probably suspect that B5 has some heavyduty defense. Remember, they did detect Ivanova mindwalking in “Voices of Authority”.

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 03:44:25 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Simple answer, Sisko did not tell Starfleet command that he did it. >>
But records are kept in triplicate of people going to the bathroom on starships. (Remember TOS “Court Martial.”) Do you mean he (gasp) falsified the records?

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 03:45:08 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Sheridan, Ivonava, and Garibaldi are all probably considered traitors by most of the people on Earth also.>>
Because of one incident, not a string of about 6 coincidentally similar ones.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-07 03:52:05 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<It has already been shown that the shadows WILL toast B5, and everybody on board will die horrible lingering deaths. At least I hope so. That would be a neat ending!>>
I think that prophecy has been (unfortunately) relegated to “alternate history-hood”. My guess is that it was originally meant to be the real end of B5 (the station), but that the unanticipated switchover to Sheridan (Sinclair was in those scenes) forced it out into left field. (Why, for instance, would Sinclair ever have “lept” into that phony-never-was-never-will-be history in B^2?)
On the other hand, just because we’ve (definitely) lost the Sinclair-Garibaldi scene doesn’t mean we’ve lost the Centauri prophetess’ big bang scene. At least that’s what I’m hoping. But we do know that virtually everybody DOES survive – G’Kar, Londo, Sheridan, Delenn, Vir, and Marcus (he was in JMS’ spinoff idea). That really only leaves Garibaldi and Susan, of the major characters, who can die.

Subj: Re:professional juries
Date: 96-07-07 10:02:35 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

< It may sound corny, but I don’t do all that much for my community as a whole except for not littering, giving blood and serving on a jury now and again, and I suspect most of the people I know are in the same boat>

SHERzipp, being a good citizen is doing a lot for your community. Obeying the laws, being curteous to your fellow citizens and being employed are very important and the foundations of our society. Keep up the good work.

Don

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 10:04:11 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<FYI, the nature of the wormhole makes it impossible to travel through it at warp speed. Therefore, a ship would have to clear the wormhole before jumping to warp, giving DS9 personnel time to fire at them.

Randy>

Only if they sit there with their fingers on the fire button 24 hours a day.

Don

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 14:08:50 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I’m pretty sure that they mentioned in an episode that the majoraty of the people are glad that they have martial law. Something about there being less crime and stuff.>>

Actually that was a news broadcast and it was all lies, so nope!

 

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 17:45:16 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>><FYI, the nature of the wormhole makes it impossible to travel through it at warp speed. Therefore, a ship would have to clear the wormhole before jumping to warp, giving DS9 personnel time to fire at them.

Randy>

Only if they sit there with their fingers on the fire button 24 hours a day.<<

Actually, before a ship comes through the wormhole, the wormhole generates particle emissions that can be detected by the station and would give them a few moments to be prepared to watch what comes out. If it’s an enemy ship, they should have time to fire on it, especially considering the increased armaments the station has since “The Way of the Warrior.”

Randy

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 18:43:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<If the ships come out warping, photon torpedos would not catch them.>>

No ship has gone through the Wormhole at warp, they go through at slow sub-light speeds.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-07 18:46:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Presumably they don’t have the strength – well, they probably do but presumably they’re unwilling to risk it. In the “alternate” history where they were stronger this is exactly what they did, at the exactly proper point in the storyline for it.
They also probably suspect that B5 has some heavyduty defense. Remember, they did detect Ivanova mindwalking in “Voices of Authority”.>>

Oh, come on, one battle crab could waste the station. As for episolon 3, just keep the station bewteen you and the planet. Those cutting beams don’t curve.

–AcDec
Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 18:49:16 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But records are kept in triplicate of people going to the bathroom on starships. (Remember TOS “Court Martial.”) Do you mean he (gasp) falsified the records?>>

Or they took a lesson from STVI and there was a (intentional) malfuntion on the bridge recorder. She is a prototype ship and has had her share of malfuntions. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 18:53:41 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Because of one incident, not a string of about 6 coincidentally similar ones.>>
They all had similar outcomes, but the situations were diffrent.

Quark :Did not want to die, and so he broke a contract.

Odo and Worf both sided against their people, just like Sheridan, Ivonava, and the rest of the crew of B5.

We still do not know the story of Garek, just that he P.O.ed Tain.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-07 18:56:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Only if they sit there with their fingers on the fire button 24 hours a day.>>

There is always someone on watch in OPS. And the relay should be able to pick up any ships on the other side of the Wormhole. A couple ships might get through, but the Defiant could take care of those.
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 18:58:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Actually that was a news broadcast and it was all lies, so nope!>>

How do you know that it was ALL lies. And most people belive what they see on TV. If they controll the media, they pretty much contoll the planet.
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re: warp drive
Date: 96-07-07 21:03:44 EDT
From: JLewis8676
Posted on: America Online

AcDec ,for more history on cochran and warp drive read the star trek novel “federation”.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-07 23:35:49 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< [DS9] is sitting right in front of the wormhole >>

I always wondered about this. Does the wormhole orbit Bajor’s star right along with the planet? They never seem to be any particular distance from either Bajor or the wormhole, and yet the indications are that the station doesn’t move much, if at all.

In general, it seems like planets in Star Trek don’t really orbit. In one Next Gen episode, a small civilization inside an asteroid had to be saved from a rogue neutron star by MOVING THE STAR (which I must assume was MUCH more massive than the asteroid). And no mention was made that the asteroid actually moved in an orbit, which could have been altered at least temporarily to avoid the collision. In “The Undiscovered Country” the Klingon worldlet Praxis had a giant explosion, and a science officer announced “I can confirm the location of Praxis, but not the existence of Praxis.” Frankly, I would have assumed the reverse — that the big explosion would have ejected Praxis at a very high rate of speed from its normal orbit. Nothing ever seems to MOVE in the Star Trek universe, although elementary physics shows that it must.

I find it refreshing that the series B5 locates the station at a stable Lagrange point near Epsilon 3, although the series hasn’t made much mention or use of this fact. I also find it refreshing when they make attempts to show you some of the consequences of building a station where the “artificial gravity” is generated by rotation of the station. Things like microgravity near the center axis (where the transport is located), or the fact that the lowest floors of DownBelow correspond to the skin of the station (like when Amis looked through a porthole in the FLOOR when he sensed the arrival of the Shadow minion in the sleeper ship).

By contrast, the only thing that ever seems to “orbit” is a starship, and they always seem to choose orbits that have to be maintained by powered flight. My favorite (though I can’t recall which episode) was one where the ship was supposed to be in “geosynchronous orbit over the north pole.” I think that to do this, you point the engines straight down at the planet and keep them on at just the right power level. Sort of like VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) planes.
Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-07 23:42:13 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< But records are kept in triplicate of people going to the bathroom on starships >>

Of course they are — because they use the Transporter for EVERYTHING!!!
(Have you ever seen a zipper on the pants of a Star Fleet uniform?)
Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 00:09:57 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, come on, one battle crab could waste the station. As for episolon 3, just keep the station bewteen you and the planet. Those cutting beams don’t curve.>>

Hmm battle crabs, they kind of remind me of squid, are they really called battle crabs? Am I the only one that noticed the shadows didn’t have a chance against the Vorlons, and where did the Shadow fighters go, the retreated and the Vorlons didn’t even waste time with them, where did they go?

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-08 00:12:59 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<How do you know that it was ALL lies. And most people belive what they see on TV. If they controll the media, they pretty much contoll the planet.>.
#1 because there was already proof of other wise.
#2 I didn’t say anything otherwise, infact Sheridan quoted ” He who controls the information controls the world” so we understand that. So Clark could have everybody thinking his way, but I would think there are enough who know better.

 
Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-08 01:27:16 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I’m pretty sure that they mentioned in an episode that the majoraty of the people are glad that they have martial law. Something about there being less crime and stuff.>>

<<Actually that was a news broadcast and it was all lies, so nope!>>

Not just the news broadcast. The Major commanding the Alexander said this too. (Or was it the Captain of the Churchill?)

 

Subj: LISTEN TO REASON
Date: 96-07-08 14:50:11 EDT
From: EPSILON 3
Posted on: America Online

Fans,

Trek and Babylon 5 are both successful and wonderful shows. You can’t say which one is better because they all explore different aspects of space exploration. Trek is a good hour long adventure every week where Babylon 5 is 1 great long adventure story. I think that if you have to defend 1 show against another then your just a little closed minded. The reason there is such a wide variety of sci-fi shows is that you can enjoy them all and not have to compare. before you put down 1 show I think you have to watch it first with no pre-concieved opinions on it. I’ve never seen a sci-fi show I did’nt like.

Epsilon 3 THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 17:28:37 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>I always wondered about this. Does the wormhole orbit Bajor’s star right along with the planet? They never seem to be any particular distance from either Bajor or the wormhole, and yet the indications are that the station doesn’t move much, if at all.<<

It was established in the DS9 premiere that the station was moved out of orbit around Bajor to within visual distance of the wormhole. In fact, in the Mirror, Mirror sequel “Crossover,” one way they could tell that things weren’t right in the other dimension was because the station was orbiting Bajor and not positioned near the wormhole.

>>In general, it seems like planets in Star Trek don’t really orbit. In one Next Gen episode, a small civilization inside an asteroid had to be saved from a rogue neutron star by MOVING THE STAR (which I must assume was MUCH more massive than the asteroid). And no mention was made that the asteroid actually moved in an orbit, which could have been altered at least temporarily to avoid the collision.<<
That was in Next Gen, the Trek I have least knowledge of. Acdec, can you help him on this one?

>>In “The Undiscovered Country” the Klingon worldlet Praxis had a giant explosion, and a science officer announced “I can confirm the location of Praxis, but not the existence of Praxis.” Frankly, I would have assumed the reverse — that the big explosion would have ejected Praxis at a very high rate of speed from its normal orbit. Nothing ever seems to MOVE in the Star Trek universe, although elementary physics shows that it must.<<
You certainly saw that sequence differently than I did. When the bridge officer said he could confirm the location of Praxis, I figured he said he could state that he was certain he was checking the right coordinates for the moon, but it was blown to kingdom come, which explains why he couldn’t confirm the moon’s existence.

>>I also find it refreshing when they make attempts to show you some of the consequences of building a station where the “artificial gravity” is generated by rotation of the station.<<
Ah, now here you can clear something up for me. We’ve all heard about the rotating gravity effect on B5. But how do they maintain gravity on the White Star or other alien ships? I’ve never seen any of the Centauri or Minbari ships rotate, so they shouldn’t have any gravity, should they? They’re not using Trek-like artificial gravity fields, are they? I thought that was supposed to be “magic” science and unsuitable for use.

Randy

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-08 18:16:07 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>As soon as one ship came through the whole they would just start launching torps at anything that came through. Some ships would make it through, but a lot would not.

Young races agianst the Shadows is even dumber than the Bajorian militia against the Jem’Hadar. And the Vorlons have gotten involved.

–AcDec<<

Are you going to tell me that as soon as a ship comes thru the wormhole, DS9 is going to start firing on it? I doubt it…besides, a SINGLE Jem’Hadar ship has already attacked DS9, boarded the station and made off with some bounty.
As for your second non-point, those “young races” have been getting their butts kicked by the Shadows, so at least that’s realistic. Do you even watch the show? Obviously not because you are not following the Vorlon’s non-involvement storyline. They have made one appearance against the Shadows-an attack that was made before the Vorlons wanted to enter the conflict. Now the Shadows know that the Vorlons are willing and able to fight, a long term tactical benefit to the Shadows. Nobody knows why the Vorlons aren’t willing to commit to the fight yet. Maybe they aren’t ready, not enough of them, or maybe they want to see if the humans, Centauri, etc. can get their acts together and join forces. In any event, this war is actually being handled like a war.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 18:33:13 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>I also find it refreshing when they make attempts to show you some of the consequences of building a station where the “artificial gravity” is generated by rotation of the station.<<
>>Ah, now here you can clear something up for me. We’ve all heard about the rotating gravity effect on B5. But how do they maintain gravity on the White Star or other alien ships? I’ve never seen any of the Centauri or Minbari ships rotate, so they shouldn’t have any gravity, should they? They’re not using Trek-like artificial gravity fields, are they? I thought that was supposed to be “magic” science and unsuitable for use.<<

It’s been stated a number of times that the “older” races, the Centauri and the Minabari, have artificial gravity. The WhiteStar is a combo of Minbari and Vorlon technology, so it also has artificial gravity. The point is that the older races guard their technology, something you don’t see in “we’re all on big happy tech level family” trek.
As to why don’t the Shadows toast B5, well it is a United Nations of sorts and the Shadows want to stay in the good graces of their faux-allies, Centauri included, for a while at least. Destroying the station would kill their allies’ ambassadors and family/personnel. Not a good tactical move.
I wish you idiots would watch the show so that if you criticize it you can bring up salient points, not stuff that has been explained(what a concept).

 

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-08 21:16:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< So Clark could have everybody thinking his way, but I would think there are enough who know better.>>

I guess you are more optimisic than I am.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 21:22:10 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

>>In general, it seems like planets in Star Trek don’t really orbit. In one Next Gen episode, a small civilization inside an asteroid had to be saved from a rogue neutron star by MOVING THE STAR (which I must assume was MUCH more massive than the asteroid). And no mention was made that the asteroid actually moved in an orbit, which could have been altered at least temporarily to avoid the collision.<<

He did not give many details about the show, but I think he is referring to “Masterpeice Society”. The did not move the steller core fragment (not a rouge neutron star), but shifted it’s orbit by a couple of degrees, so that the tidal effects on the colony would not be as great.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-08 21:29:38 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Are you going to tell me that as soon as a ship comes thru the wormhole, DS9 is going to start firing on it? I doubt it…besides, a SINGLE Jem’Hadar ship has already attacked DS9, boarded the station and made off with some bounty.>>

They used a civilain transport, and set a bomb on the Station. I doubt that they will fall for the same trick twice. Also consider that most of the command staff was away from the station, and one of them may have been able to stop it if they had been there.

<<As for your second non-point, those “young races” have been getting their butts kicked by the Shadows, so at least that’s realistic. Do you even watch the show? Obviously not because you are not following the Vorlon’s non-involvement storyline. They have made one appearance against the Shadows-an attack that was made before the Vorlons wanted to enter the conflict. Now the Shadows know that the Vorlons are willing and able to fight, a long term tactical benefit to the Shadows. Nobody knows why the Vorlons aren’t willing to commit to the fight yet. Maybe they aren’t ready, not enough of them, or maybe they want to see if the humans, Centauri, etc. can get their acts together and join forces. In any event, this war is actually being handled like a war.>>

I HAVE been watching the show, and frankly it seem that the other older races are either chicken, or there is something that has not been revieled on why they are sitting on their behinds.
And frankly I don’t see how getting all of the races together is going to help unless the older races start supplying some ships that could actually fight the shadows. 1000 sling shots is not going to do much to a M1 tank.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 21:34:12 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<As to why don’t the Shadows toast B5, well it is a United Nations of sorts and the Shadows want to stay in the good graces of their faux-allies, Centauri included, for a while at least. Destroying the station would kill their allies’ ambassadors and family/personnel. Not a good tactical move.>>

The Shadows face a far greater threat (so I have been led to believe) from the alliance that Sheridan is forming on B5, than from the minor problem of P.O.ing the Centuari. And since Londo does not care about anything but revenge, Morden could just tell him to get off the station.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-08 22:32:38 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

About Marshall Law, It was mentioned by that Major in Severed Dreams that it was popular. This time, ISN told the truth.
Subj: Re:Ugh!
Date: 96-07-08 23:23:35 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I guess you are more optimisic than I am.>>

No, I just know that I wouldn’t believe all that bull, infact I would have found a way to B5 myself by now to help Sheridan.

 
Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 23:27:27 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<The Shadows face a far greater threat (so I have been led to believe) from the alliance that Sheridan is forming on B5, than from the minor problem of P.O.ing the Centuari. And since Londo does not care about anything but revenge, Morden could just tell him to get off the station.>>

I disagree, I think Morden made it clear in the ep where Kosh died that they NEEDED the Centauri to fight border wars, why do you think he went to the trouble of killing Adira and making appear to be Refa’s doing? Besides, I think the Narn pose them a bigger threat than expected, why else would they have spent so much time in the last war 1000 years ago trying to wipe out them all, and at the very least to take out their telepaths.

 

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-08 23:44:06 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Ah, now here you can clear something up for me. We’ve all heard about the rotating gravity effect on B5. But how do they maintain gravity on the White Star or other alien ships? I’ve never seen any of the Centauri or Minbari ships rotate, so they shouldn’t have any gravity, should they? They’re not using Trek-like artificial gravity fields, are they? I thought that was supposed to be “magic” science and unsuitable for use.>>

The reasons given are thus:
Narn: Don’t have artificial gravity, dont need it. Narns are nearly unneffected by 0-g exposure. You will notice that Narn crews are always shown strapped into their chairs
Humans: Don’t have artificial gravity. And are sensitive to 0-g effects. Thus the rotating sections.
Centauri & Minbari: The centauri are several centuries ahead of humans in most technologies, and the minbari by several millenia. They DO have artificial gravity, which on B5 human physics lacks the theoretical basis to understand, and the engineering skills even to reproduce (Kinda like showing a TV to Julius Ceasar. He’s plenty smart, but to understand how it works would requre a whole relearning of the universe frrom ground up, and, even when he gets the theory down, he still does not have the tools to build one) Thus Lenniers offhand remark “Oh, we minbari have had artificial gravity for quite some time (Hint: and were not going to tell you humans how it works, you would.nt understand anyway). Thats whats great about B5. “Magic” tech is just that, and not possessed by every tom, dick, and Gul Dukat on the show. And it doesn’t have to be expalined, because humans, audience included, could’nt understand anyway!

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-09 11:53:39 EDT
From: MOOGAMOO
Posted on: America Online

“Centauri & Minbari: The centauri are several centuries ahead of humans in most technologies, and the minbari by several millenia.”

This has bothered me. If the centauri are centuries ahead of us or even 50 years ahead of us. How could B5 hold off the Centauri ships and even destroy them. think of one of our aircraft carriers of today being held off by a fleet or a fort in the 17th century. Even going back to the 1940’s one of our aircraft carriers of today could wreck such havoc it would probably take the combined off all the worlds powers back then to defeat it

Even more so with the minbari they are hundreds of years ahead of us if not a thousand. How in the world could we have destroyed their leaders ship on first contact. You would think their leaders ship would be one of the strongrst ships in the fleet. Again the example of our aircraft carrier fighting a roman ship. I don’t think even if the roman ship got the first 500 shots in arrows will not sink an aircraft carrier, and that is about the technological difference we are looking at.

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-09 16:46:58 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>I HAVE been watching the show, and frankly it seem that the other older races are either chicken, or there is something that has not been revieled on why they are sitting on their behinds.
And frankly I don’t see how getting all of the races together is going to help unless the older races start supplying some ships that could actually fight the shadows. 1000 sling shots is not going to do much to a M1 tank.

–AcDec<<

That’s my point, IT HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED. Nobody knows why the Vorlons haven’t gotten involved. But it will be resolved. Also, the Whitestar has caused the destruction of two Shadow ships and last season several Narn heavy cruisers took out a Shadow ship, so they are not totally indestructable. That’s why the Shadows are moving cautiously and sewing discord among the other races, it’s called divide and conquer.There aren’t that many of them(shadows) and they could probably lose to a combined forces armada.
>>The Shadows face a far greater threat (so I have been led to believe) from the alliance that Sheridan is forming on B5, than from the minor problem of P.O.ing the Centuari. And since Londo does not care about anything but revenge, Morden could just tell him to get off the station.

–AcDec<<

How much do the Shadows know of the War Council Sheridan has formed? Can you please tell me what ep Morden deduced this threat? They don’t know of its existance. Remember Delenn let Narn get bombed back into the stone age so that the shadows wouldn’t know someone was on to them. If Morden knew, he would have sent that shadow death squad to Sheridan’s room, not Kosh’s. There is a differance between “watching” a show and comprehending all of it. Unfortuneately, you are from the “short attention span” franchise.

example:

PARIS: Captain, Seska and the Kazon again. We just ran into them last week.
JANEWAY: Shhh, you’ll awaken the audience out of their stupor and they’ll remember.

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-09 17:03:58 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<Archer,

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

Don’t let a few people on the Trek boards scare you away, If you have a valid problem with Trek state it. But don’t whine about it over here when one or two chowderheads gave you some trouble. They gave us guys who are loyal to Trek and don’t mind critical comments a bad name.>>

What was someone said here earlier about the ability to recognize sarcasm? I was more critical of the biases of the forum host. The Trek Boards have become friendlier as more and more people give up on Voyager…

Subj: Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-09 17:04:27 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>This has bothered me. If the centauri are centuries ahead of us or even 50 years ahead of us. How could B5 hold off the Centauri ships and even destroy them. think of one of our aircraft carriers of today being held off by a fleet or a fort in the 17th century. Even going back to the 1940’s one of our aircraft carriers of today could wreck such havoc it would probably take the combined off all the worlds powers back then to defeat it<<

Your analogy is false. Our weapons systems are just as powerful as anyone’s. The Centauri brought our tech level almost up to par with theirs, except for artificial gravity. And we took it from there. It has been stated numerous times that earth is an up and coming power, that must include many tech advances. It should surprise no one that our war machine is second only to the Minbari, given our violent nature.

>>Even more so with the minbari they are hundreds of years ahead of us if not a thousand. How in the world could we have destroyed their leaders ship on first contact. You would think their leaders ship would be one of the strongrst ships in the fleet. Again the example of our aircraft carrier fighting a roman ship. I don’t think even if the roman ship got the first 500 shots in arrows will not sink an aircraft carrier, and that is about the technological difference we are looking at.<<

Again, someone who doesn’t watch the damn show is trying to find holes in it. Your analogy is again moot, our weapons systems still destroy!! They are not “arrows” they are particle beams, laser beams, fusion cannons and pulse cannons(not just simple phasers and photon torps). It has been stated at least a dozen times(goddam I’m getting tired of saying that) in the show that the Minbari ship came in peace and had their guard down. I don’t care who you are getting a broadside from an Earth Alliance heavy cruiser is going to vaporize you if you are not prepared. Using your stupid analogy, arm those triremes and galleons with Silkworm surface-to-surface missles and some SCUDs and they will take out ANY unprepared modern warship. Also, “reflector fields” dont exist among the young races, so don’t even try it, trekboy.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-09 17:41:30 EDT
From: MOOGAMOO
Posted on: America Online

hey nec boy

I do not like star trek, with the mature level you are showing, you would have trouble following voyager, Prehaps you did not understand what I was talking about. The Minbari are 1000 years ahead of us in technology to put it in terms you will understand that is 17,532,000 Barney the inosaur

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-09 17:41:53 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<The Enterprise uses an 8 hour shift. If you just used the top three in the chain of command, (Picard, Riker, Data) each officer would have 16 hours bewteen shifts. The reason Worf, Troi, or Crusher stand watch, is to give the other guys some rest. How is this sad, to the intellect of the viewers?>

Because the show doesn’t follow your logic, Ac. The Big 3 are always on the bridge at the same time. Only the episode “Data’s Day” paid even minor lip service to the idea of duty shifts, but otherwise, anytime something important happens, the Big 3 just *happen* to be on the bridge. Don’t get me wrong, I generally loved TNG, but I had to admit that it was *not* a realistic portrayal of a shipboard chain of command.

Another case in point: How many times have even the most brazen acts of insubordination resulted in no real consequence? (Worf kills Duras in “Reunion,” Dax defies Sisko to join the old Klingons on their “Blood Oath” and I’ve lost count of how many times the Voyager crew has rebeled against Janeway already (okay, twice). And how can Worf resign his commission, join a “foreign navy,” fight in a civil war and be back in StarFleet uniform by the end of part 2 (“Redemption”)?

I have this missing scene from “The Wounded” playing in my head:
ADMIRAL: “Captain Maxwell, do you *promise* never to go insane and start a private war again?”
MAXWELL: “Yes, I do.”
ADMIRAL: “Wellll…. okay.”

I’m amazed Ro Laren and Tom Paris ever managed to get themselves court martialed? Maybe they didn’t know the secret “Get Out Of Jail Free” code words: “I’m really, really sorry.”

If Michelle Forbes returns to Trek, they’ll probably do it like this:

PICARD: “Lieutenant, you betrayed me and joined a terrorist group that nearly dragged the Federation into a war with the Cardassians. I’m very disappointed in you.”
RO: “I know, sir.”
PICARD: “What do you have to say for yourself?”
RO: “I’m really sorry. It won’t happen again.
PICARD: “Welllll, it’s good to have you
back.” (big hugs all around)

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-09 17:59:40 EDT
From: MOOGAMOO
Posted on: America Online

hey nec boy

I do not like star trek, with the mature level you are showing, you would have trouble following voyager, Prehaps you did not understand what I was talking about. The Minbari are 1000 years ahead of us in technology to put it in terms you will understand that is 17,532,000 Barney the dinosaur episodes, ( if you want to know how to do the math go ask your mom) Even if the Centauri brought us up to their level we are still 800 years behind the minbari. So back to the analogy our aircraft carrier is fighting a 12 century ship. Now the cannons of the 12th century operated on gunpowder. our weapons today operate on the same principal as gunpowder, but I do not believe a 12th century ship with it’s gunpowder canon is going to sink an aircraft carrier. For you info I have been watching B5 since before season1 I saw the pilot movie. This is one of the flaws I see, that has not been explained. Now if you wish to rant and rave go to the ST board where that is the only way they can discuss opposing views.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-09 18:39:54 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>It’s been stated a number of times that the “older” races, the Centauri and the Minabari, have artificial gravity. The WhiteStar is a combo of Minbari and Vorlon technology, so it also has artificial gravity. The point is that the older races guard their technology, something you don’t see in “we’re all on big happy tech level family” trek.<<
Ah, you bring up one of the things I like best about Star Trek: that humans aren’t the stupidest creatures in the galaxy. I realize it’s fashionable these days to bash Trek’s positive view of the future, but I think that’s one of the things that has kept the shows going for the past 30 years.

And I still don’t see why the Centauri didn’t help the Earth Alliance develop artificial gravity. I mean, do they have the same laws of physics as we do or not? And couldn’t they have come to some kind of agreement where Centauri would equip the ships with the necessary equipment and have at least one Centauri onboard until the humans learned what makes it go? But you’re right; that’s just the silly positive outlook of Star Trek. Much better to let the humans float around in their own ships because they only got part of the technology available.

>>I wish you idiots would watch the show so that if you criticize it you can bring up salient points, not stuff that has been explained(what a concept).<<
One of the problems of B5 is that you have to have an online account to understand it. I mean, if you weren’t on AOL, where would you think they keep the White Star? Or how Delenn showed up at just the right moment at the end of “Severed Dreams”? Or why they pulled out one guy in cryogenic freeze, put him back and hit the one in 100 shot of finding Bester’s lover? Getting it right during the episode so those not online can follow the story. What a concept!

Randy

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-09 18:40:35 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Even more so with the minbari they are hundreds of years ahead of us if not a thousand. How in the world could we have destroyed their leaders ship on first contact. You would think their leaders ship would be one of the strongrst ships in the fleet. Again the example of our aircraft carrier fighting a roman ship. I don’t think even if the roman ship got the first 500 shots in arrows will not sink an aircraft carrier, and that is about the technological difference we are looking at. >>

Good point. This has bothered me as well. But while I give B5 a 3 or 4 for these inconsistencies and soleicisms, Trek gets a flat 10. WADS!

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-09 18:47:20 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Ah, you bring up one of the things I like best about Star Trek: that humans aren’t the stupidest creatures in the galaxy. I realize it’s fashionable these days to bash Trek’s positive view of the future, but I think that’s one of the things that has kept the shows going for the past 30 years.

And I still don’t see why the Centauri didn’t help the Earth Alliance develop artificial gravity. I mean, do they have the same laws of physics as we do or not? And couldn’t they have come to some kind of agreement where Centauri would equip the ships with the necessary equipment and have at least one Centauri onboard until the humans learned what makes it go? But you’re right; that’s just the silly positive outlook of Star Trek. Much better to let the humans float around in their own ships because they only got part of the technology available.>>

Yes the laws of physics for artificial gravity are the same on Minbar as Earth. The difference is that Humans do not even have the basic mathematics necessary to understand these systems. How I love B5. Trek WADS!

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-09 18:49:59 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<And I still don’t see why the Centauri didn’t help the Earth Alliance develop artificial gravity. I mean, do they have the same laws of physics as we do or not? And couldn’t they have come to some kind of agreement where Centauri would equip the ships with the necessary equipment and have at least one Centauri onboard until the humans learned what makes it go?>>
Yeah dude! Cool! I don’t see why the US just dosn’t give Japan and Korea nukes and stealth fighters to defend themselves,and we can send one american to make sure they know how to use it right! Great Idea Guy! WADS!

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-09 21:19:24 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

That barney the dino thing really helped.Thanks. I’m sorry, when was it established that the Minbari were a thousand years ahead of us? And when was it established that the Centauri were eight hundred years behind the Minbari? Besides which, my whole point is that our WEAPONS are still capable of mass destruction and that the Minbari ship was unsuspecting. As a result of that action, the Minbari kicked the EA’s navy’s butt all over the galaxy. When they were prepared for a war, we only took out the Blackstar due to some trickery.

>>So back to the analogy our aircraft carrier is fighting a 12 century ship. Now the cannons of the 12th century operated on gunpowder. our weapons today operate on the same principal as gunpowder, but I do not believe a 12th century ship with it’s gunpowder canon is going to sink an aircraft carrier. For you info I have been watching B5 since before season1 I saw the pilot movie. This is one of the flaws I see, that has not been explained. <<

I said give the 12th century ship out-of-date Silkworm surface-to-surface missles and it will still take out or seriously damage an unsuspecting aircraft carrier. By the way, I don’t think the Minbari ship was destroyed, just that Dukhat was killed. In fact, in “Soul Hunter” it was established that Dukhat was killed and his body protected by Minbari from the Soul Hunters. If you are not a trek fan than I retract the trekboy comment.

Subj: Centauri Give Away Free Tech
Date: 96-07-09 21:27:24 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>Ah, you bring up one of the things I like best about Star Trek: that humans aren’t the stupidest creatures in the galaxy. I realize it’s fashionable these days to bash Trek’s positive view of the future, but I think that’s one of the things that has kept the shows going for the past 30 years.<<

There is a differance between being the “stupidest creatures in the galaxy” and human tech level on B5. Humans are more advanced than most of the young races but have only been “uplifted” for a short time. In ST, they are the most advanced common race. Well that’s fine, I just like B5’s approach better.

>>And I still don’t see why the Centauri didn’t help the Earth Alliance develop artificial gravity. I mean, do they have the same laws of physics as we do or not? And couldn’t they have come to some kind of agreement where Centauri would equip the ships with the necessary equipment and have at least one Centauri onboard until the humans learned what makes it go? But you’re right; that’s just the silly positive outlook of Star Trek. Much better to let the humans float around in their own ships because they only got part of the technology available.<<
You can speak for the motivations of the Centauri? Why would they want us to know that? Maybe they wanted to keep us in the dark about a few things to their advantage. Your last sentence is probably right on.

 

Subj: Earth’s speedy rise to power
Date: 96-07-10 00:37:23 EDT
From: RONPEGT
Posted on: America Online

First, at some point the Centari showed up on earth. They tried to convince earth that we were a lost colony, to take us over. When we didn’t buy that, they saw a bunch of cool stuff we had, said; “Hey, these would sell back home. If you give us this stuff, we’ll trade it for tech.” We bought Jump technology, and a huge leap in weapon’s tech. Maybe we bought plans for artificial grav too, but like Einstein’s COMPLEX equations we have to learn the math before it makes sense. Well, I think that the Centari didn’t bring us to their level, but you know us Earthers. We KNOW how to make weapons work, so we made leaps and bounds in that.
As for our sudden rise to power, from what I’ve heard it goes like this: Prior to us meeting the Minbari there was a conflict between neiborghing worlds, we stepped in, Kicked some ass, and said; “Don’t F with us earthers we mean business.”
This is the world as I see it.
RONPEGT

Subj: Re:oops!
Date: 96-07-10 00:55:35 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Archer:

Here’s another one for the “no consequences” argument: How many times does Data violate the Prime Directive and disobey orders in “Pen Pals” (I think that’s the title)? He even brings the child to the bridge.

Then my favorite ploy was used: the amnesia drug! Well, we don’t know this race or much about their physiology but…let’s try this drug and see if it doesn’t kill her.

And then Data leaves the doctor’s rock with her (probably one that fell out of the writer’s head).

Actually, all kidding aside, I think that eps was an exception. I find ST most powerful when it is facing philosophical issues — and least (excepting the Borg), when it is mainly an action story (that’s when the technobabble gets out of hand). “Pen Pals” tried to be both and failed…but hilariously.

Sherry

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-10 01:47:11 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<That’s my point, IT HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED. Nobody knows why the Vorlons haven’t gotten involved. But it will be resolved. Also, the Whitestar has caused the destruction of two Shadow ships and last season several Narn heavy cruisers took out a Shadow ship, so they are not totally indestructable. That’s why the Shadows are moving cautiously and sewing discord among the other races, it’s called divide and conquer.There aren’t that many of them(shadows) and they could probably lose to a combined forces armada.>>

The first shadow ship that Sheridan destroyed was by doing that jumpgate with in a Jumpgate thing, and it won’t work twice, and it only one a second time because the shadow ship was not at full strength. And all the Narn ships were able to do is nick one ship.
<<How much do the Shadows know of the War Council Sheridan has formed? Can you please tell me what ep Morden deduced this threat? They don’t know of its existance. Remember Delenn let Narn get bombed back into the stone age so that the shadows wouldn’t know someone was on to them. If Morden knew, he would have sent that shadow death squad to Sheridan’s room, not Kosh’s. There is a differance between “watching” a show and comprehending all of it. Unfortuneately, you are from the “short attention span” franchise.>>

Oh, come on. Unless the Shadows are stupid they should know that there is an alliance being formed w/ B5 in the center. They know that the Whitestar has attacked many of their ships, and they know that it is defending B5, are they stupid?

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-10 01:52:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Your analogy is false. Our weapons systems are just as powerful as anyone’s. The Centauri brought our tech level almost up to par with theirs, except for artificial gravity. And we took it from there. It has been stated numerous times that earth is an up and coming power, that must include many tech advances. It should surprise no one that our war machine is second only to the Minbari, given our violent nature.>>

You can use the same reasoning for why all of the races on Trek are about the same level. The Feringi trade w/ anybody.

<<Again, someone who doesn’t watch the damn show is trying to find holes in it. Your analogy is again moot, our weapons systems still destroy!! They are not “arrows” they are particle beams, laser beams, fusion cannons and pulse cannons(not just simple phasers and photon torps). It has been stated at least a dozen times(goddam I’m getting tired of saying that) in the show that the Minbari ship came in peace and had their guard down. I don’t care who you are getting a broadside from an Earth Alliance heavy cruiser is going to vaporize you if you are not prepared. Using your stupid analogy, arm those triremes and galleons with Silkworm surface-to-surface missles and some SCUDs and they will take out ANY unprepared modern warship. Also, “reflector fields” dont exist among the young races, so don’t even try it, trekboy.>>

If the Earth forces are technoclly able to destroy Minbari warships, why did they only lose one ship in the war, and that one to a trick? And the Vorlons seem to have some energy dissipating field on their ships.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-10 02:01:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Because the show doesn’t follow your logic, Ac. The Big 3 are always on the bridge at the same time. Only the episode “Data’s Day” paid even minor lip service to the idea of duty shifts, but otherwise, anytime something important happens, the Big 3 just *happen* to be on the bridge. Don’t get me wrong, I generally loved TNG, but I had to admit that it was *not* a realistic portrayal of a shipboard chain of command.>>

Alot of the time the show opens w/ somthing already happening that brought everyone to the bridge. That is what captains logs are for. And I don’t want to look up all of the names, but many times one of the big three is not one the bridge and have to come running up during a red alert. Also you should expect Data to be up there a lot, he does not need to sleep, he may be up there for days at a time.

<<Another case in point: How many times have even the most brazen acts of insubordination resulted in no real consequence? (Worf kills Duras in “Reunion,” Dax defies Sisko to join the old Klingons on their “Blood Oath” and I’ve lost count of how many times the Voyager crew has rebeled against Janeway already (okay, twice). And how can Worf resign his commission, join a “foreign navy,” fight in a civil war and be back in StarFleet uniform by the end of part 2 (“Redemption”)?>>

I have gone over the Worf thing about a million times, Picard could have thrown the book at him, but frankly Worf did Picard and the Federation a favor by killing Duras, and no one is going to complain. And Dax did not disobey any orders, she got leave. Sisko did not think it was a good idea, but there was nothing he could do to stop her. As for Worf’s reenstatement, Picard had descretion and he wanted Worf back.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Centauri Give Away Free T
Date: 96-07-10 02:08:13 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<There is a differance between being the “stupidest creatures in the galaxy” and human tech level on B5. Humans are more advanced than most of the young races but have only been “uplifted” for a short time. In ST, they are the most advanced common race. Well that’s fine, I just like B5’s approach better.>>

The humans in Trek are not the only ones that develop their Technology. The Federation is made up of 150 races, and many are much older than the humans. The Vulcans had intersteller flight thousands of years before the humans. And we all know that the Vulcans are much more intelligent than the humans, they probably came up w/ most of the tech.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-10 03:17:40 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>If the Earth forces are technoclly able to destroy Minbari warships, why did they only lose one ship in the war, and that one to a trick?<<<
The answer to that is on season two, episode one, “Points of Departure” ; Membari use stealth technology, earth weapons couldn’t lock onto their ships, so Sheridan “Star Killer” mined the asteroid field, ‘cos a fusion bomb doesn’t have to lock onto anything….Do you imagine all those asteroids (Some of them bigger than New York) exploding in all directions?

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-10 12:14:42 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>I don’t see why the US just dosn’t give Japan and Korea nukes and stealth fighters to defend themselves,and we can send one american to make sure they know how to use it right! Great Idea Guy! WADS!<<

Totally different situations. The Centauri would have a stronger ally in Earth if they had cooperated more fully with the Alliance. Giving Korea and Japan nukes doesn’t improve America’s position at all. What A Dumb Statement! (WADS)

Randy

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-10 16:06:14 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<One of the problems of B5 is that you have to have an online account to understand it. I mean, if you weren’t on AOL, where would you think they keep the White Star? Or how Delenn showed up at just the right moment at the end of “Severed Dreams”? Or why they pulled out one guy in cryogenic freeze, put him back and hit the one in 100 shot of finding Bester’s lover? Getting it right during the episode so those not online can follow the story. What a concept!>>

Bull.

I was watching B5 long before I had discovered any areas like this one. I didn’t need The Lurker’s Guide to answer the questions you posed. Being online has enhanced my enjoyment of the show. Having access to the creator directly like we do is a great bonus, but it is NOT necessary. There must be millions of B5 fans who do not have online access and understand the show just fine….

Subj: Re:ENSIGN AND MOM SAVE WORLD
Date: 96-07-10 16:11:05 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

Ac,

You’re talking about the rationalization the writers cooked up to justify keeping a major character. My point was that their rationalizations always rang false to me.

Subj: the endless flight ofvoyager
Date: 96-07-10 17:09:06 EDT
From: VAMPONLN
Posted on: America Online

I HAVE COME TO THE CONCUSION THAT THE DELTA QUADRANT IS ONE BIG CIRCLE…………………HENCE THE ENDLESS ENCOUNTERS WITH THE SAME RACES!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE WRITERS HAVE A SERIOUS MENTAL BLOCK AND TAKE US FOR FOOLS….
B-5 HOWEVER HAS A SET UNIVERSE IN WHICH SPACE TRAVEL IS ACCOMPLISHED BY USE OF JUMPGATES……..B-5 JUST MAKES MORE SENSE………SO I CONCLUDE THIS MESSAGE POSTING BY SAYING:THANK GOD THERE IS A SCI-FI SHOW THAT HASNT GIVEN UP THE ART OF DETAIL……..IN ESSENCE THAT WE WERE NEVER HERE”THE 20TH
CENTURY” THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME
VAMPONLN

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-10 17:40:24 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, come on. Unless the Shadows are stupid they should know that there is an alliance being formed w/ B5 in the center. They know that the Whitestar has attacked many of their ships, and they know that it is defending B5, are they stupid?>>
No, they are not stupid, and they do know about it, but it would be very stupid for them to attack B5 openly. As was established in WWE1, the shadow fleet is still mot up to full strength. Please remember that B5 is essentially a UN-like organization, with representatives from nearly every major race on board. If they blow up B5, they blow up somebody important from the governmnet of each of the major races. Each of the major races then gets very mad. ALso remember that the SHadows very likely do not know about the non-aligned worlds joining the alliance. Last time they looked, they were rather busy fighting each other. And even if they do know, that alliance is unstable at best. So, not considering the non-aligned worlds, the war council consists of one earth station, possibly three earth civilian colonies and a few ships, the Narns (who kind of don’t have a military anymore), and Two thirds of the Minbari military. The Minbari might be slightly threatening, but not threating enough on their own to prompt the Shadow to do something as drastic as attack B5. The risk is too great. Now I suspect that will change in the near future, but not for now.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-10 18:43:51 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<< The Centauri would have a stronger ally in Earth if they had cooperated more fully with the Alliance.>>

Actually Randy, you don’t want allies to be too strong. On the other hand, you do want them to be as dependent, and thereby dependable as possible. (Which, by the way, is the ONLY reason the US is really in Bosnia. To assert to the Europeans which country is top dog. “I an Zeus and all you other gods, your strength combined, could not pull me from my throne.” Homer, Illiad)

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-10 19:03:39 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The answer to that is on season two, episode one, “Points of Departure” ; Membari use stealth technology, earth weapons couldn’t lock onto their ships, so Sheridan “Star Killer” mined the asteroid field, ‘cos a fusion bomb doesn’t have to lock onto anything….Do you imagine all those asteroids (Some of them bigger than New York) exploding in all directions? >>

Yes, and the Minbari are much LESS advanced than the Shadows, what good will earth ships do agianst them when the can’t even beat the Minbari?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:DS9 SAVES ALPHA QUADRANT!
Date: 96-07-10 19:09:22 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< No, they are not stupid, and they do know about it, but it would be very stupid for them to attack B5 openly. As was established in WWE1, the shadow fleet is still mot up to full strength. Please remember that B5 is essentially a UN-like organization, with representatives from nearly every major race on board. If they blow up B5, they blow up somebody important from the governmnet of each of the major races. Each of the major races then gets very mad.>>

The Centari could just leave since they are in legue w/ them. They already know the Vorlons and the Minbari are against them, most of the humans are on their side. The only ones they would tick off would be the Non-aligned races, and those same races are going agianst them. The could also use Pres. Clarke to blaim the destuction on someone else.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Destroying B5
Date: 96-07-11 00:19:53 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Why should the Shadows destroy B5. Sowing chaos is much more cost and energy effective: Get the smaller races to line up against each other or the Centauri (who are now fighting on many fronts, which Londo warned against, and thus weakening themselves). When everyone is running on fumes, the Shadows can step in and finish the job. If they destroyed B5, they might frighten the smaller races into banding together with the more powerful ones against the Shadows. Except for the action they took with Kosh and contemplating killing Londo, they’ve mainly used force to create more confusion, not to secure territory (which is what confuses Sheridan so much in I&E).

Of course, I assume there are still telepaths aboard the station and we know the Shadows have troubles with them (although they seem to be able to travel the station with Morden).

Sherry

Subj: Re:Destroying B5
Date: 96-07-11 10:35:50 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<<Of course, I assume there are still telepaths aboard the station and we know the Shadows have troubles with them (although they seem to be able to travel the station with Morden).>>
Actually, if you remember when Talia ran into Morden in ‘In the Shadow of Za’ha’dum’, they looked nearly as upset as she did, though not like they were in quite as much pain (Also note that Bester didn’t seem to be adversely affected by the presence of the Shadows – maybe that was something they did and not just a reaction caused by their presence?) So I don’t think they can just walk around the station unhindered. It occurs to me that Franklins underground railroad for telepaths may have done more good than anyone realized – perhaps kept the shadows at a distance for a little while anyway.

Subj: Shadows hate psykers
Date: 96-07-11 14:53:23 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>Oh, come on. Unless the Shadows are stupid they should know that there is an alliance being formed w/ B5 in the center. They know that the Whitestar has attacked many of their ships, and they know that it is defending B5, are they stupid?

–AcDec<<

Dont forget the shadowship that didn’t attack the Whitestar when Bester was on it, they fear psykers for some reason. There are all those “Ship of Tears” psykers on B5, not to mention Susan. This could be another reason they dont attack B5. I also still stand by the UN aspect of the station for another reason not to attack. And finally, sure the Whitestar has attacked them several times and is orbiting B5, that means there is a serious conspiracy on B5? That leap of deduction is too much. Besides, what ship has survived an attack by the Whitestar to report it?

 

Subj: Re:Shadows hate psykers
Date: 96-07-11 15:03:44 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

Besides, remember what G’kar said in one of the early episodes of season one: “In this station no one is what they seem to be”….Maybe they have their dark agenda wich includes B5……Maybe we will know why they don’t destroy B5 in season 4

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-11 15:26:29 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>Yes, and the Minbari are much LESS advanced than the Shadows, what good will earth ships do agianst them when the can’t even beat the Minbari?<<

Wait and find out.
>>The Centari could just leave since they are in legue w/ them. They already know the Vorlons and the Minbari are against them, most of the humans are on their side. The only ones they would tick off would be the Non-aligned races, and those same races are going agianst them. The could also use Pres. Clarke to blaim the destuction on someone else.<<

The Centauri still have interaction with other races. Most of the races represented on B5 are Non-Aligned World races, a lot of them the shadows are allied with in their “join us or die” not-so-subtle alliance. They aren’t going to just vaporize all of them on a suspicion.

 

 

Subj: Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-11 15:26:40 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>The humans in Trek are not the only ones that develop their Technology. The Federation is made up of 150 races, and many are much older than the humans. The Vulcans had intersteller flight thousands of years before the humans. And we all know that the Vulcans are much more intelligent than the humans, they probably came up w/ most of the tech.

–AcDec <<

Is all this guessing on your part? I’ve seen every TOS and TNG ep and never heard mention of how humans got their technology. With the exception that Efram Cochrane (sp?), a HUMAN, invented warp drive. Please cite your sources.

Subj: Shadow tactics
Date: 96-07-11 22:18:57 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I think the Shadows use other races for three very important reasons.
#1 They are very effective when hitting during a time of absolute chaos. That way they can hit important enemy istallations well they are looking the other way, they can’t do that if people are looking for them.
#2 They really don’t want any kind of an alience between the worlds so they obviously have a weakness somewhere.
#3 It apears that it takes them awhile to rebuild their fleet so they have to have a war with limited collatorall damage.

Subj: Re:Shadows hate psykers
Date: 96-07-12 04:29:48 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< And finally, sure the Whitestar has attacked them several times and is orbiting B5, that means there is a serious conspiracy on B5? That leap of deduction is too much. Besides, what ship has survived an attack by the Whitestar to report it?>>

The ship on “Ship of Tears”, and don’t you think they can communicate over hyperspace like everyone else? They also know a Babylon station was used in the last war.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-12 04:36:21 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Is all this guessing on your part? I’ve seen every TOS and TNG ep and never heard mention of how humans got their technology. With the exception that Efram Cochrane (sp?), a HUMAN, invented warp drive. Please cite your sources.>>

The romulans left Vulcan 2000 years before they met the humans. In the new movie we will see -First Contact- we will see first contact w/ the Vulcans. The Vulcans probably were the basis of the Prime Directive, and did not contact the humans untill they developed intersteller capability.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-12 11:04:08 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Crc,

This is a ST vs B5 topic in this folder, So what’s the problem?
I like B5 but I don’t worship it like it was a new religion or something that’s what ST’s for :>

JJC III

Subj: Re:Green Mile
Date: 96-07-12 11:14:58 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Sherry,

Glad you like liked my take on the Green Mile, Hopefully by now you have found book one. For me Part 4 was the best of the bunch so far, It was exciting and had a really confounding cliffhanger ending which I loved and hated at the same time. I have the book Isominia to and found it a hard read and have not read it all the way throgh yet, Have you read the Dark Tower series of books from King? They are just the best.

 

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 11:25:15 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Cke,

Eeek Eeek Eeek

The space spiders are coming, the space spiders are coming. I’m sooooooooooo SCARED. The aliens on TNG called the Shellack were more mysterious and scary and they did it in 55 minutes, B5 has taken about 3 years to tell a story about bad and mean space spiders though the storyline and the writing are excellent that’s what it boils down to:mean space spiders

 

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 15:59:11 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

Who the heck were the Shellack?
And thank you forkeeping the level of this discussion so consistently high. (My -aliens -are -scarier -than -yours, type of thing)

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-12 17:06:24 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Captain Cameron <<

Boy will his dad be pi–ed when he sees what Cameron did to the USS Ferarri.

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-12 17:10:11 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Ok. Now “Commander” Troi…? Boy, these special cases are bursting out all over…<<

I hope that wasn’t a double entendre…

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-12 17:26:26 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>><<EVER HEARD OF SARCASM????????? >>

Sarcasm is usally well done, you need practice.<<

How can he have time to practice sarcasm when he’s learning to be a neurosurgeon, martial artist and grand admiral all at once? Some people just have trouble doing everything at once, you know. (I’m sorry, I need practice at it, too. Just don’t have the time between my telepathy/telekinesis, sub-atomic particle physics, writing, genetics, xenobiology, zero-gee P.E. and home ec. classes…)

And I thought that it *was* well-done sarcasm (I got it, anyway).

Subj: Re:Earth’s speedy rise to po
Date: 96-07-12 19:36:57 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> We KNOW how to make weapons work, so we made leaps and bounds in that.
As for our sudden rise to power, from what I’ve heard it goes like this: Prior to us meeting the Minbari there was a conflict between neiborghing worlds, we stepped in, Kicked some ass, and said; “Don’t F with us earthers we mean business.”<<

We were so successful in B5’s “Dilgar War” that the Dilgar were unable to leave their own planet when their sun exploded. They were more or less exterminated by “those pathetic Earthers”. I’m sure this is a major step in how we got our reputation. Surviving the Minbari war was also a very important role in our “rise to power”.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-12 19:44:44 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>If the Earth forces are technoclly able to destroy Minbari warships, why did they only lose one ship in the war, and that one to a trick? And the Vorlons seem to have some energy dissipating field on their ships.<<

They were able to destroy the first Minbari ship because

a) They were in close range, so the Minbari ship couldn’t dodge.
b) The Minbari ship was not using its stealth or defense systems, nor was it prepared for damage control.
c) The human ship fired without warning in the slightest.
d) The Minbari most likely had sent merchant ships and luxury ships in the convoy (it was not a fleet of destroyers after all). Their military ships are probably much stronger than what they had there. Imagine the difference between firing on Disney’s Big Red Boat and firing on an Aircraft Carrier.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges
Date: 96-07-12 19:49:34 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Yes, and the Minbari are much LESS advanced than the Shadows, what good will earth ships do agianst them when the can’t even beat the Minbari?

<<

None. Well, maybe if they’re full of telepaths.

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-12 20:14:15 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>The romulans left Vulcan 2000 years before they met the humans. In the new movie we will see -First Contact- we will see first contact w/ the Vulcans. The Vulcans probably were the basis of the Prime Directive, and did not contact the humans untill they developed intersteller capability.
–AcDec<<

If the Vulcan/Romulan consortium had interstellar spaceflight two thousand years before first contact with humans then how come the pointy ears use warp tech just like us humies. Wouldn’t they be couple thousand years more advanced? Not to mention the Romulans should be kicking everybody’s butt…

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 20:18:01 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

“… that’s what it boils down to:mean space spiders.”

If that’s what you think, short-attention-span-trekboy, are you missing a great show.

 

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-12 22:55:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<If the Vulcan/Romulan consortium had interstellar spaceflight two thousand years before first contact with humans then how come the pointy ears use warp tech just like us humies. Wouldn’t they be couple thousand years more advanced? Not to mention the Romulans should be kicking everybody’s butt…>>

Everyone on Trek uses Warp tech, even the Borg. The Romulans had to build a cicilization out of a small group of exiles, that would take a while.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-12 23:36:06 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Crc,

This is a ST vs B5 topic in this folder, So what’s the problem?
I like B5 but I don’t worship it like it was a new religion or something that’s what ST’s for :>>

I have absolutely no idea what your talking about!

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-12 23:37:18 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

The Federation doesn’t have cloaking technology because of the Federation-Klingon treaty…not because they are technologically inferior

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 23:39:14 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<The space spiders are coming, the space spiders are coming. I’m sooooooooooo SCARED. The aliens on TNG called the Shellack were more mysterious and scary and they did it in 55 minutes, B5 has taken about 3 years to tell a story about bad and mean space spiders though the storyline and the writing are excellent that’s what it boils down to:mean space spiders>>

You just made my point, TNG has 1plot per episode and that really SUCKS! You know NOTHING! and no it’s not, if you actually carried a decent brain in that fat head of yours I’m sure you would understand, but since you don’t I won’t try and explain!

 

Subj: Re:last stand
Date: 96-07-12 23:41:55 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<How can he have time to practice sarcasm when he’s learning to be a neurosurgeon, martial artist and grand admiral all at once? Some people just have trouble doing everything at once, you know. (I’m sorry, I need practice at it, too. Just don’t have the time between my telepathy/telekinesis, sub-atomic particle physics, writing, genetics, xenobiology, zero-gee P.E. and home ec. classes…)

And I thought that it *was* well-done sarcasm (I got it, anyway).>>

Thanks Songo, and I must say you have done a GRAND job of it yourself OLD CHAP!!! Heh heh heh heh heh heh. The CRC/Songo tag team.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 23:44:18 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<If that’s what you think, short-attention-span-trekboy, are you missing a great show.>>

YES!!! ATTA BOY NECRON1, KEEP IT UP!!

 

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-12 23:47:56 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

>>The humans in Trek are not the only ones that develop their Technology. The Federation is made up of 150 races, and many are much older than the humans. The Vulcans had intersteller flight thousands of years before the humans. And we all know that the Vulcans are much more intelligent than the humans, they probably came up w/ most of the tech.

–AcDec <<

Is all this guessing on your part? I’ve seen every TOS and TNG ep and never heard mention of how humans got their technology. With the exception that Efram Cochrane (sp?), a HUMAN, invented warp drive. Please cite your sources>>

You may also notice how all the great starfleet scientist are always either human, or a group with at least one human in it

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-12 23:51:22 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<The space spiders are coming, the space spiders are coming. I’m sooooooooooo SCARED. The aliens on TNG called the Shellack were more mysterious and scary and they did it in 55 minutes, B5 has taken about 3 years to tell a story about bad and mean space spiders though the storyline and the writing are excellent that’s what it boils down to:mean space spiders>>

The shelliak were a tgreat idea on TNG, but never followed up upon. Did it not ever occur to you as unlikely that one would seriously negotiate with a race that believes in your absolute inferiorty and wothlessness as an article of faith? Worf was right in that ep. “This is pointless, fighting would be prefferable!”

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-07-13 00:43:29 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

<<P.S. Do you all realise that TNG was vastly superior to the original. The original should get points for breaking the ice, but TNG was superior in every concievable way.>>

<<I caught TOS on television last night, and I would have to say that i disagree with this statement…I would have to give TOS the edge.>>

Sorry Vox, but I have to disagree with you. Yes, every episode had a point to make…that point being that mankind’s way was superior to that of the “alien-of-the-week’s” way. At least on TNG, they don’t throw the Prime Directive out the window every other week!
As far as their little morality plays…although I concede that TOS did break ground in many different areas, what sort of morality were they preaching with Kirk romancing a different woman every week? And what about the death of a token “red-shirt” each week with little or no displays of grief or remorse?
But these points don’t tick me off as much as the blatant sexism evident in TOS. It is my understanding that EVERYONE serving on board the Enterprise completed some kind of military training (i.e. Starfleet Academy). I’m sorry, but no woman who not only has military training, but is also competent enough to serve aboard the flagship should be fainting or screaming in terror at the first sign of danger. Both TNG and B5 have woman characters who are strongwilled, independent and intelligent.
TOS has many elements that make it enjoyable to watch, but it is not necessarily superior to TNG.

Sorry this post is so long, but I have strong feelings on this issue.

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-13 02:47:36 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Everyone on Trek uses Warp tech, even the Borg.>>
Not true. The later borg used do-it-yourself space-holes. (But the tech was suddenly destroyed before anyone could write down how it works, like Data’s emotion chip was in the same ep. But, hey, maybe it’ll suddenly be back without explanation in the next movie.)

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-13 15:09:33 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Mali,

The Shellack were those aliens on the TNG eps where Data had to get the colony off the Shellack’s planet or they would be destroyed, They were briefly seen in parts of the show with Picard trying to deal with them. They were mysterious and scary and I which they would do something with them again. They looked a little the Excalibians on a early TOS esp. Sorry, but while the storyline in B5 is great the space spiders don’t do anything for me. JJC III

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-13 15:11:41 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You may also notice how all the great starfleet scientist are always either human, or a group with at least one human in it>>

There is also almost always a vulcan. We all know the real reason that they use so many humans on Trek is because it is a TV show, and makeup costs $$$$$.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-13 15:16:27 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Necron,

I love B5 and I love the writing and the acting, What I have a problem with is that these big baddies of this whole series are space spiders who’s leader appears to be a really really big space spider. This being said the fact that the alien bad guys are a little silly does not distract me from enjoying B5. Maybe you could try enjoying DS9 in the same way if you gave it a chance.

JJC III

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-13 15:16:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Not true. The later borg used do-it-yourself space-holes. (But the tech was suddenly destroyed before anyone could write down how it works, like Data’s emotion chip was in the same ep. But, hey, maybe it’ll suddenly be back without explanation in the next movie.)>>

Data’s chip was NOT destroyed, at the end of the episode he debated if he would ever use it. And I was referring to the “original” Borg using warp tech. And those “transwarp” thingies were being devolped by starfleet way back in ST3, it just not efficient enough for use. Maybe Lore had found a way to make it work?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-13 15:18:05 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Crc,

I was refering to your post on why people were debating ST Vs B5

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-13 15:19:44 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Crc,

I was refering to your post in which you were asking why we had this ST vs B5 debate going on in this folder. It was your post wasn’t it?

JJC III

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-13 15:28:20 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Crc,

Did I hit a nerve Crc? ST HAS always been a single plot an eps show, If you knew what you were talking about you would know this. The format ST has and has been following for over 30 years WORKS, It’s popular and enjoyed all over the world just the way it is. If it’s not broken why fix it?
The ONLY thing that B5 has going for it is it’s 5 year storyline and continuty without that it wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has.

JJC III

Subj: Re:And also….
Date: 96-07-13 16:39:50 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< “As far as their little morality plays…although I concede that TOS did break ground in many different areas, what sort of morality were they preaching with Kirk romancing a different woman every week?” >>

Well, this is a bit of bizarre trivia, but as I understand it, there is a scene in one of TOS episodes involving one of those Kirk trysts in which you see him and a woman go into his quarters, and then it shifts to him putting his boots on. This was, as I understand it, the first time a major television series featured a clear (albeit incredibly tame) indication that there had been sex, not just kissing. Bear in mind, too, this was the 60’s… Morality issues were somewhat different. And while the concept of a black woman communications officer on the bridge of a sci fi show may not seem that big now, at the time no less a figure than Martin Luther King saw it as a monumental step in advancement of African American status…

Subj: Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-13 18:28:23 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>I love B5 and I love the writing and the acting, What I have a problem with is that these big baddies of this whole series are space spiders who’s leader appears to be a really really big space spider. This being said the fact that the alien bad guys are a little silly does not distract me from enjoying B5. Maybe you could try enjoying DS9 in the same way if you gave it a chance.

JJC III<<
OK. I can appreciate you like the show, my apologies if I insulted you. However, I do disagree strongly with your dismissal of the “space spiders”.
First off, they have never shown a “leader”, as you put it. I am starting to think that they have several species for different tasks, i.e., “keepers” in WWE 2, surgeons in “Ship O’ Tears”, etc. Have you ever read any SF? Hardcore SF? This is not an insult or condenscending question, just wondering. Just because B5’s aliens aren’t of the”slap-a-noseridge-prothsetic- and-give-them-turnip-ears” variety prevalent in Trek, means they are comical? I find the shadows creepy and ALIEN, yes, alien(hence the name). ST(in its non-TOS incarnations) has enjoyed a budget that dwarfs B5, yet has lacked the creativity to do better on its humanoid aliens.
And for your information, I LOVE DS9. Great character development(Garak and Gul Ducat being my faves) is the strong point of this show. It still has its weak moments. The two parter with the Dominion on earth was terrible, but for every bad ep there is a good one(for the most part) and I continue to faithfully watch it.

Subj: Who’s running the Fed?
Date: 96-07-13 19:30:57 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>The Federation doesn’t have cloaking technology because of the Federation-Klingon treaty…not because they are technologically inferior<<

Actually, it was the Treaty of Algeron(Romulans) that prevents Federation use of cloaking/phasing technology. A brilliant move on the part of Starfleet High Command.

Subj: Re:Dark Tower
Date: 96-07-13 23:09:07 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JJC:

I think I have the first book somewhere. I must have picked it up around the time I was reading “It” and that scared me so badly in the first 50 pages that I put it and all others away for a long time (must have triggered a childhood fear of clowns or something). I just finished “Intensity” (though I’m not much of a Koontz fan); it was a good thriller, but extremely bloody. I’ll try the library again this week for “Green Mile,” time to bring my overdues back anyway (I try look at it as financial support for my local library 😉 ).

Sherry

Subj: Re:A letter to Ac Dec
Date: 96-07-14 01:04:30 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I was refering to your post on why people were debating ST Vs B5 >>

Holy Trek Freek batman!!!

CRC

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-14 01:08:24 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Did I hit a nerve Crc? ST HAS always been a single plot an eps show, If you knew what you were talking about you would know this. The format ST has and has been following for over 30 years WORKS, It’s popular and enjoyed all over the world just the way it is. If it’s not broken why fix it?
The ONLY thing that B5 has going for it is it’s 5 year storyline and continuty without that it wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has.>>

Sorry, my nerves are fine, I knew that ST has always been like that, and that’s what is WRONG with it! The ONLY reason ST lasted this long was because of all the hype the original caused among the ST FREEKS, and it was the only big network Sci- Fi around to watch, now people who never liked Sci-fi,(Like myself) because of ST, I pay more attention to it because of B5!

CRC

 

Subj: Re:Who’s running the Fed?
Date: 96-07-14 03:20:34 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< A brilliant move on the part of Starfleet High Command.>>

I really don’t think the military makes up the treaties, the Federation Council and the beurocrats would do that, and I agree that it was a bonehead treaty. YOU SEE, people on Trek DO make mistakes!

–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-14 03:22:35 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

Sorry bud, but most major SF writers credit TOS with increasing intrest in SF not decreasing it.

 
–AcDec

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-14 14:21:58 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>>The Shellack were those aliens on the TNG eps where Data had to get the colony off the Shellack’s planet or they would be destroyed, ….<<<<
You’re right, those where great aliens and is unfortunate that they were never seen again.
>>>>Sorry, but while the storyline in B5 is great the space spiders don’t do anything for me.<<<<
This is a matter of personal taste, I find them intriguing and really scary, and the fact that they don’t show the whole picture (You don’t know who their leader are, or what their agenda is, short of to kick everybody’s butt) makes it most interesting to me.

Subj: Both are good
Date: 96-07-14 21:04:12 EDT
From: HKUriah
Posted on: America Online

Gee, I like both programs equally well. Yes they are very different, but who ever said all SF has to be the same? They both have things about them that make them worthwhile. Anyone agree?
Subj: the Shadow Vessels
Date: 96-07-14 22:11:02 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

I know this may sound strange, but I feel the Shadow ships possess a sense of beauty, at least in their design. They are dark, malevolent, and effective at conjuring up feelings of dread and loathing (at least for me anyway). But at the same time, they are graceful and organic, and create no visual sense of metal or machinery. They are, in my opinion, one of the most exquisite examples of ship design I’ve seen in a long time.

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-14 22:30:06 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>><<You may also notice how all the great starfleet scientist are always either human, or a group with at least one human in it>>
>>>>There is also almost always a vulcan. We all know the real reason that they use so many humans on Trek is because it is a TV show, and makeup costs $$$$$.<<<
Another reason is lack of imagination. B5 have half the budget and yet manages to create different new races, and they are composed of individuals, good and bad, smart and dumb…..On Trek when they are dealing with and alien race, they all react like a school of fish….There’s no individuality.
Did I mention the ever repeating butler-like Prime Minister-of-a-planet-in-need-of-help-of-the-week?

Subj: B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-14 22:38:04 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

B5 has the courage to deal with Christian beliefs and how do they apply in a future society.(Passing through Gesemanie) Something I have never seen on an Trek episode (If I am missing some episode here, please tell me). The only time I see Trek deal with Religion is with the Bajorans, wich is an invented Religion, and very confortable to deal with, since the writers can acommodate it to fit the story or the moral they want to preach; and avoid some though questions that a REAL religion poses.
What happened to Christianity? Or Judeism? Or Buddism?…All we see is Bajoran or Klingon beliefs….
Did Starfleet abolish all of them?

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-14 23:40:15 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“Something I have never seen on an Trek episode (If I am missing some episode here, please tell me).”

I don’t know. There were very strong christian overtones in Bread and Circuses. Also, there were references in a lot of the original shows. I have to say, though, that as far as any of the later incarnations go, I have to agree with you.

Subj: Re:The Dumbshow Cometh Major
Date: 96-07-15 00:19:50 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Sorry, my nerves are fine, I knew that ST has always been like that, and that’s what is WRONG with it! The ONLY reason ST lasted this long was because of all the hype the original caused among the ST FREEKS, and it was the only big network Sci- Fi around to watch, now people who never liked Sci-fi,(Like myself) because of ST, I pay more attention to it because of B5!>>

That’s not to say that all who like star Trek are freeks, just the ones who don’t stop at that line that says you do or do not have a life. Also what I mean was that it was always my personal opinion that ST could be vastly improved. So when B5 came around I was a Sci-Fi fan, just making sure people understand that ST is not the cause of B5’s success. Hope nobody got too pissed off.

Subj: Re:Both are good
Date: 96-07-15 00:20:55 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<Gee, I like both programs equally well. Yes they are very different, but who ever said all SF has to be the same? They both have things about them that make them worthwhile. Anyone agree?>>
I agree, but it’s more fun this way! heh heh heh

Subj: Re:the Shadow Vessels
Date: 96-07-15 00:22:02 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

<<I know this may sound strange, but I feel the Shadow ships possess a sense of beauty, at least in their design. They are dark, malevolent, and effective at conjuring up feelings of dread and loathing (at least for me anyway). But at the same time, they are graceful and organic, and create no visual sense of metal or machinery. They are, in my opinion, one of the most exquisite examples of ship design I’ve seen in a long time.>>

Initmidation is certainly a plus!

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 00:23:45 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

NOT AGAIN, Whydo people fight over religeon when half of the ones killing each other atleast agree upon the idea of one God in Heavan.

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-15 00:39:11 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Data’s chip was NOT destroyed, at the end of the episode he debated if he would ever use it.>> It’s been awhile since I saw it (those season openers, where a great plot thread is always resolved in a very disappointing fashion, are unbearable for repeat-viewing) but I could have sworn that the chip was destroyed when they did away with Lore (again, thanks, writers).

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 00:42:09 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The two parter with the Dominion on earth was terrible>>
Yeah, especially that self-righteous bit from fake O’Brien about how the Dominion didn’t have to bother with replacing the alpha quadrant leaders, and how paranoid humans were to think they’d ever do a thing like that.

Subj: Re:Who’s running the Fed?
Date: 96-07-15 00:51:44 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I really don’t think the military makes up the treaties, the Federation Council and the beurocrats would do that, and I agree that it was a bonehead treaty. YOU SEE, people on Trek DO make mistakes!>>
Sorry, this is not a remotely believable mistake. It is a sad attempt to get the writers out of a plot inconsistency they’d painted themselves into. Any diplomat who did a thing like that would find himself neighbors with Captain Garth. (BTW, did anyone else ever notice that anyone who was “required reading at the academy” always went nuts? Heck, we can even throw in Daystrom.) And no Starfleet officer (no mere automatons, we: we question orders and do our own thing and never get court martialed for it unless we’re a guest-star) would EVER stick to it.
(BTW that same treaty stipulated that transporters cannot be used to heal people, youthen them, or bring them back to life, and also authorized mandatory sex changes for male cats. I think there was also a clause about how much slower distances can be covered at a given warp speed under a woman captain and how any alien technology that’s discovered must always be ignored. I think Soong’s lawyer even threw in a clause about ignoring all previous EARTH discoveries of sentient androids.)

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 00:54:43 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< B5 has the courage to deal with Christian beliefs and how do they apply in a future society.(Passing through Gesemanie) Something I have never seen on an Trek episode (If I am missing some episode here, please tell me).>>
In all fairness, TOS did one good episode along these lines, called “Bread and Circuses” which presented an essentially Christian religion in a very positive light and even went so far as to imply that religion, far from being an evolutionary mistake, was actually an essential element in human culture. I think Gene Roddenberry was tied up in the office when they made that one.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 01:04:19 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<NOT AGAIN, Whydo people fight over religeon when half of the ones killing each other atleast agree upon the idea of one God in Heavan.>>
People do not fight over religion per se. People fight. People fight on virtually any excuse. People pick excuses about which the culture values. Most cultures have valued religion very highly. Get rid of religion and people fight over other stuff instead. It is no hypocrisy that religions which preech everybody getting along also get fought over. The people who really believe are not the ones doing the fighting. But in a culture, say medieval Europe, with an overall “Christian religion” air, what do you think the bullies and thugs will use to justify their actions? (Does anyone seriously think our culture is less cruel for having stopped using religion to justify its actions?)
This is not to count (1) genuine morally-justified conflict, as long as the religion isn’t one of total pacifism (and the big western three definitely are not) – such as WW2, the Civil War (slavery WAS an issue after the fact at least), and the Star Wars trilogy or (2) religions whose holy texts actually order unbelievers to be slain or converted by the sword (without mentioning any names).

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 02:41:50 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>><<The two parter with the Dominion on earth was terrible>>
>><> Yeah, especially that self-righteous bit from fake O’Brien about how the Dominion didn’t have to bother with replacing the alpha quadrant leaders, and how paranoid humans were to think they’d ever do a thing like that.<<<<
I just saw it today and I can’t believe Sisko didn’t arrest/capture the O’brian changeling and interrogate the hell out of him…..Instead he just sat around while the changeling rambled on, probably telling him 24 lies a second. C’mon Sisko! Don’t let me down! You have done better before.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 02:45:14 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>> religion, far from being an evolutionary mistake, was actually an essential element in human culture.<<<
Evolutionary mistake? Earth’s religions have survived prosecution, modern discoveries and are stronger than ever….If survival doesn’t qualify as an evolutionary advantage I don’t know what does.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 02:56:45 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>>In all fairness, TOS did one good episode along these lines, called “Bread and Circuses” which presented an essentially Christian religion in a very positive light and even went so far as to imply that religion, far from being an evolutionary mistake, was actually an essential element in human culture.<<<
Religions are not going away, they have lasted thousand of years and two or three hundred more would make no major difference. Trek doesn’t show any earth religion surviving into the 23rd Century because the series were created on the 60’s in wich to contrast religion and the notion of Aliens/other worlds was taboo, and this characteristic has been carried on to the modern Trek incarnations. Gene Roddenberry’s father went and apologized to his neighbors about his son’s creation; such were those times.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 03:08:43 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<What happened to Christianity? Or Judeism? Or Buddism?…All we see is Bajoran or Klingon beliefs….
Did Starfleet abolish all of them? >>

We do know that some of the old religions are still around, at least hinduism is. We also know that a clear majoraty of humans happen to be non-religious. 1/4 of humans now are non-religious and the creators just made them the majority. Not a big streach of the imagination (like traveling to other stars quickly).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Creative Thinking
Date: 96-07-15 03:10:11 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< It’s been awhile since I saw it (those season openers, where a great plot thread is always resolved in a very disappointing fashion, are unbearable for repeat-viewing) but I could have sworn that the chip was destroyed when they did away with Lore (again, thanks, writers).>>

Nope, not destroyed.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 03:11:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Yeah, especially that self-righteous bit from fake O’Brien about how the Dominion didn’t have to bother with replacing the alpha quadrant leaders, and how paranoid humans were to think they’d ever do a thing like that.>>

Actually that is my favorite part, what a slap in the face to Sisko, especally because it was true.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Who’s running the Fed?
Date: 96-07-15 03:13:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Sorry, this is not a remotely believable mistake. It is a sad attempt to get the writers out of a plot inconsistency they’d painted themselves into. Any diplomat who did a thing like that would find himself neighbors with Captain Garth. >>

And I guess that you know the exact circumstances under which the treaty was made. Are you really Rick Berman in disguise.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 03:16:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I just saw it today and I can’t believe Sisko didn’t arrest/capture the O’brian changeling and interrogate the hell out of him…..Instead he just sat around while the changeling rambled on, probably telling him 24 lies a second. C’mon Sisko! Don’t let me down! You have done better before.>>

Oh give me a break, the changling could have morphed into a bird and flown away in less than a second, Sisko knows that, if he had had a phaser in his had he might have had a chance.

–AcDec

Subj: Page 957, par 34, article 69
Date: 96-07-15 04:26:27 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

Don’t forget this Destroyer:
The Treaty also forbade anyone from going to Exo III, the planet in TOS ep “What Are Little Girls Made Of?”. All that planet offered was a quick and efficient way to create androids. Never seen again…

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 04:35:24 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>><< Yeah, especially that self-righteous bit from fake O’Brien about how the Dominion didn’t have to bother with replacing the alpha quadrant leaders, and how paranoid humans were to think they’d ever do a thing like that.>>

Actually that is my favorite part, what a slap in the face to Sisko, especally because it was true.<<

I find it ridiculously hard to believe that as a prelude to invasion, the Dominion wouldn’t try to destabilize the quad by replacing leaders to sew seeds of confusion amongst allies, wait, Gowron!!!(does this all sound familiar?)

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 07:04:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I find it ridiculously hard to believe that as a prelude to invasion, the Dominion wouldn’t try to destabilize the quad by replacing leaders to sew seeds of confusion amongst allies, wait, Gowron!!!(does this all sound familiar?) >>

He said there was only four changlings on EARTH, he did not say anything about anywhere else.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 13:57:47 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“We do know that some of the old religions are still around, at least hinduism is.”

I think that is the problem that people are complaining about, Acdec. Yes, some old religeons live in the Star Trek universe, but, they all tend to be politically correct religeons. You can have Hinduism, or Budism, or Indian Mystisism, but god forbid there be a Catholic or a Protestan.

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 14:08:20 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>Oh give me a break, the changling could have morphed into a bird and flown away in less than a second, Sisko knows that, if he had had a phaser in his had he might have had a chance.<<<
But Sisko didn’t even tried…He looked old and tired, if Sheridan would’ve been there he would have kicked the shit out of the changeling or die trying, ……Even Kirk would’ve done a better job.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 14:14:48 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>>”We do know that some of the old religions are still around, at least hinduism is.”<<<<
Trek doesn’t deal with religion because is not the politically correct thing to do…..science and religion don’t mix good on tv, such was the creed of the 60’s and they continued up to this day. B5 was created 4 years ago, and has the advantage and the courage to ask tough questions….How earth’s established religions would deal with the concept of other worlds/aliens and THEIR beliefs……On B5 we see several religions EARTH and ALIEN coming together on the station. B5 is more realistic and Trek is victim of its own PC’ness.

Subj: Re:B5/TRK and Religion
Date: 96-07-15 14:19:59 EDT
From: MAli402861
Posted on: America Online

>>> for your information TMP was NOT the movie that GR wanted to make, he had his own script “The God Thing” that he wanted to use, but Paramount rejected because it was too anti-religious.
–AcDec<<<<
Just my point….To deal with the “God Thing” on science fiction is not the political correct thing to do…….Unless they portray God as some Alien monster like “ST 5″
B5 is more realistic and is not afraid of take chances, it doesn’t have to please everybody, just to tell a damn good story.

Subj: Re:Noseridge Alert!!!
Date: 96-07-15 18:50:58 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>He said there was only four changlings on EARTH, he did not say anything about anywhere else.<<
They only included that scene to make Admiral I-could-of-had-a-recurring-role-on-B5 look silly for trying to institute martial law in the face of the shapeshifters’ threat. When in actuality I think draconian measures would have to be enforced to deal with the insidious Dominion. Or collapse the damn wormhole. The producers, once again, have let a genie out of the bottle and are trying to cover their tracks…

 

 

 

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>