B5 vs Star Trek #2

Folder Log – Babylon 5 Vs. Star Trek Folder #2
America Online Inc.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-29 17:23:58 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<1) O’Brien started out as a Lieutenant. So why is he a Chief now?<<

Easy. O’Brien is a non-com, which doesn’t follow the same ranking system. His designation as a chief is because he’s in charge of a section of DS9/ As the person in charge, he is called “chief.”>

 

 

Subj: B5 vs Trek (totally)
Date: 96-07-29 17:27:36 EDT
From: Rickeshay
Posted on: America Online

AcDec

There is no doubt that you either have watched TNG and DS9 many many times or
are capable of coming up with an answer for anything negative posted about
either of these series. I remember that in the Borg episode that the
Federation and Klingon fleets were decimated, you say that they weren’t, I
haven’t seen the episode since it was first repeated so I will have to defer
to your knowledge.(though I don’t think you really answered my main point
about the episode) This board is supposed to be B5 vs Star Trek yet it is
almost entirely problems with the Trek shows answered by AcDec and a few
others. Just for awhile; why doesn’t someone post about a B5 error(I know
they are much more rare) and then the B5 side can explain it away.(or not)
Actually many Trekkers will say that B5 is not as good as Trek but never give
any specifics. Just to get it started I will lob a softball sort of B5
mistake. In ‘Ship of Tears’ what is the liklihood that when they thaw out
one of the telepaths(out of 100) it would turn out to be Bester’s lover? Now
I know why it was done, but it just was too easy.(granted it is not even in
the same ballpark as most of the Trek errors that have been pointed out on
this board)

Rick
Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-29 17:48:33 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

Lets try this again;

<1) O’Brien started out as a Lieutenant. So why is he a Chief now?<<

Easy. O’Brien is a non-com, which doesn’t follow the same ranking system. His designation as a chief is because he’s in charge of a section of DS9/ As the person in charge, he is called “chief.”>
So, he started out as the Tactical officer in the cardassian war, was demoted to transporter operator on the Enterprise, and was later promoted to Operations officer on DS9. Enlisted people do not serve as department heads, oh I forgot that this is Trek where they let teenagers who fail the Starfleet entrance exams fly the flagship of the fleet.

Don

Subj: Babylon 4
Date: 96-07-30 01:46:40 EDT
From: Jorak1242
Posted on: America Online

How about this for a plot line, near the end of the series have B4 brought forward by Valen to help B5 complete with warships and all. Naturally this would not be in the ancient records of the minbair. Because it was a secret mission and Valen couldnt risk the information to reach the shadows Now or then. So all of a sudden the goods would have enough strengh to win at the last possible moment. Using the time/travel angle perhaps we can find out where the shadows really came from. Maybe they’re not so ancient after all maybe not the Vorlons either, perhaps they could be descentedts from Human/Minbari relations.

Or something else could happen, any ideas anybody?

Subj: Old woman…
Date: 96-07-30 02:21:33 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>>Earth doesn’t have a president. Everyone takes it in turns to act as a sort of Executive Officer of the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified, by a simple majority, as in the case of purely internal affairs, or by a two-thirds majority, as in the case of…<<

You’re fooling yourself, we’re living in a dictatorship, a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working-classes…

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 02:32:20 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>Easy. O’Brien is a non-com, which doesn’t follow the same ranking system. His designation as a chief is because he’s in charge of a section of DS9/ As the person in charge, he is called “chief.”<<

What, that makes no sense. He was a TACTICAL OFFICER, not a non-com under Captain Maxwell. This was established in the TNG ep “The Wounded”. Also, in the TNG episode “Where Silence Has Lease” Riker addressed him as Lieutenant. His title was Chief Transporter officer, and was addressed as Chief as a result of that. Season 7 showed a pip reduction.
>>Hey, this is fun. Let’s see how it works on the other side. In “Severed Dreams,” Delenn shows up at the precise instant she had to in order for the show to keep going. She comes 30 seconds earlier, no drama. She comes 30 seconds later, no station. Please explain.<<

Slightly improbable timing is tolerated for suspension of disbelief, blatant ignoring(where are the story editors? They get credited.) of past events is irresponsible.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 07:40:18 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

<<How do you know that the wormhole can be destroyed? If they managed to close the alpha quad end, the beings that created it could just re-open it if they want too, just like they did in “Emissary”.>>

Still, you have to wonder why the Feds don’t try to collapse it anyway. We’ve seen two instances where it would be possible to destroy it..(the episode where OBrien was shifting in time and “The Search part II”). With such a looming threat, the Federation, realistically, would see that the Gamma quad is not worth exploring…

As far as Star Trek, First Contact: This “Borg sending one ship” business just doesn’t make sense. Send an entire fleet, destroy the Federation, and be done with it. The same can be said for the dominion…it seems that the alpha quad is sufficiently destabilized to do some damage…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 15:13:16 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Excuse me, Trek did a whole 2 parter about that. We couldn’t *possibly* resort to those measures because it would be ever so paranoid to assume that the Changelings would ever have to resort to replacing the leader of an alpha-quadrant power. Wouldn’t happen! Never happen! General Hague (mark 2) and co. were paranoid monsters to think it could happen!
Wait a minute…<<

That General Hague fellow is one paranoid guy– first it’s NightWatch, then changelings! What next? I know: the changelings infiltrate a nazi-like camp for Elvis impersonating malitia groupies in Centennial Park and force them to watch the American Gymnastics Team fall on their heads over and over again!

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 15:27:25 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> (BTW, on next week’s B5 Brother Edward has to singlehandedly get back the White Star from the Centauri!)<<

Brother Edward was dead,… Oh, yeah, I forgot that transporter trick where you essentially clone a person back to life… Nevermind.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 15:46:31 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

I’ve heard rumors that the Dominion is made of a prison colony of outcast Changelings. I heard that Odo meets the real changelings and is restored because the real changelings do not care anything for the outcasts (they, supposedly, don’t kill other changelings unless that changeling is a Dominion outcast.) These rumors may be true, but I don’t know for certain.

BTW, my source for last year’s final 4 for B5 will, unfortunately, not be able to supply me with the final five ahead of schedule. Oh well…

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-07-30 15:59:40 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>.

Reminds me of a song:

My name is Hugh ooo ooo,
I want to be like you ooo ooo.
I want to talk like you,
Think like you, too ooo ooo.

You see it’s true ooo ooo,
a Borg like me eee eee.
Can learn to be, Federation too ooo ooo.<<

Jungle Book?? OK, try one from Aladdin!

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 16:39:16 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>><<The shadow started attacking the centaury in Chrisalys….B5’s first season finale….October 1994
And they started to toy with Londo’s ambitions way before that….”Signs and portents” March 1994
“The way of the warrior” aired on Fall 1995……>>

You were refering to the Centauri attacking people, not the shadows.<<

Fall Of Night was aired in the UK early in the summer before the fall airing of Way of the Warrior. Don’t tell me that no one over here had seen it then because I’d seen it before it was released over here, and I don’t answer to Paramount, the “Co-Opt” happy behemoth.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 19:18:24 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>The ships were waiting in hyperspace waiting for the humans to finish the battle. Saving energy and Membary lifes..<<

Sounds good … as long as you can tell me where in the episode it said what you’re indicating is what happened.

Randy

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 19:21:17 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>><<If you had one that broke down the structure of everything it came in contact with, what could you keep it in?>>
Energy field? A container-sized pocket dimension? Magnetic envelope? (Hey, those have kept the universe from blowing up for decades… remember the effect anti-matter had in “The Alternative Factor”?)<<

Ah, but then it’s not a universal solvent, is it?

Randy
Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 19:24:20 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>><< In “Severed Dreams,” Delenn shows up at the precise instant she had to in order for the show to keep going. She comes 30 seconds earlier, no drama. She comes 30 seconds later, no station. Please explain.>>
Sorry, B5 is not a rationalistic, “everything must be scientifically explainable” universe. As Delenn would put, that was simply the right moment for her to arrive. The universe knows what it’s doing.
For Trek to attempt explanations like that would be blatant hypocrisy. For B5 it’s simply part of the premise. Life is deeper than the material sometimes.<<

Congratulations! That’s got to be the funniest response I’ve ever heard! “The universe knows what it’s doing?” Consider what your response would be if someone were to use that line to a point about Star Trek. Talk about trying to have your cake and eating it, too……

Randy

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 19:31:34 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>Easy. O’Brien is a non-com, which doesn’t follow the same ranking system. His designation as a chief is because he’s in charge of a section of DS9/ As the person in charge, he is called “chief.”>
So, he started out as the Tactical officer in the cardassian war, was demoted to transporter operator on the Enterprise, and was later promoted to Operations officer on DS9. Enlisted people do not serve as department heads, oh I forgot that this is Trek where they let teenagers who fail the Starfleet entrance exams fly the flagship of the fleet.<<

Amazing how some B5 folk can dance all around something and never see it. Like I said, O’Brien is a non-com. His rank doesn’t change the way the regular Starfleet officers do. He has gone from one assignment to another. And Sisko has put him in charge of DS9 operations, thus leading to him being called “Chief.”

Randy

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 19:35:02 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

You B5 people sure are concerned for O’Brien and sure watch those Trek episodes carefully. And again, his rank and assignment function differently from regular Starfleet issue.

>>Slightly improbable timing is tolerated for suspension of disbelief,<<
I always apply the utlimate test: What if this happened on Star Trek? What would the B5 fans say about that? The answer is extremely obvious. It would be another sign that Trek is sinking slowly into the sunset. That creativity has fled the halls of Trekdom and roosted at B5. Can’t have it both ways, folks…..

Randy

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 19:36:36 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

Just to set the O’Brien thing to rest….

The universe knows what it’s doing!
Randy

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:23:34 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Romulans would rather die than be taken prisoner.>>
Just like “Romulans never take prisoners”… unless they’re going to be the father of the first Klingon in Starfleet or are the double of a little girl who’ll be Enterprise security chief in 20 years…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:25:28 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Origanlly they thought it was the prophets sending a message. They did not think about cloaked ships untill what happened on Earth.>>
Let’s be realistic here. How many of us WEREN”T thinking of cloaked ships?
(Just like episode after episode they seemed shocked that the unusually high presence of dachion particles just might, it’s possible, indicate a cloaked ship…)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:26:19 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Berman is too busy with the movie>>
That would explain some of the rumors I’ve heard…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:29:18 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>><<If memory serves, the Defiant left the battle area in a hurry…No time to check for survivors.>>
>>Romulans would rather die than be taken prisoner.–AcDec<<<

Why would Changelings take Romulans prisoner and try to force information out of them when “Romulans” could regroup, pick up all survivors, and bravely set up a struggling resistance post? “So, first let’s cloak this sucker in the name of the glorious Romulan Empire. Uh, T’pok, you remember how to do that, don’t you? Mind if I watch in case something happens to you?”

Subj: Re:B5 vs Trek (totally)
Date: 96-07-30 20:36:04 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<In ‘Ship of Tears’ what is the liklihood that when they thaw out
one of the telepaths(out of 100) it would turn out to be Bester’s lover? >>

What is the likelihood that the guy who replaces Sinclair as commander of B5 just happens to have lost his wife on the big enemy planet? As I’ve said before, so-called coincidence on B5 is part of the premise – sometimes these things do happen in life, and even stranger things. Noteworthy times always breed the strange. This is simply one of the characteristics of B5 (like its inclusion of religion, and in general alternate ways of looking at life) that makes it more believable than rationalistic, materialistic humanism-101 Trek… which doesn’t even have the %$%$ to bring back the fun stuff like “Hodgkins’ Law of Parallel Planet Development.”
Come on, who doesn’t want to see Janeway run across an exact double of Planet Earth? Where there’s two there could be three, four, five…

Subj: Re:Old woman…
Date: 96-07-30 20:37:29 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>Earth doesn’t have a president. Everyone takes it in turns to act as a sort of Executive Officer of the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified, by a simple majority, as in the case of purely internal affairs, or by a two-thirds majority, as in the case of…<<

<<You’re fooling yourself, we’re living in a dictatorship, a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working-classes…>>

FINALLY! Someone got that! 😉

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:40:55 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Brother Edward was dead,… Oh, yeah, I forgot that transporter trick where you essentially clone a person back to life… Nevermind.>>
Actually, the Brother Edward from the alternate reality where the last Shadow War was a draw is still alive, and by a startling coincidence, he was sent across to our reality by Draal, who…

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 20:44:17 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>The ships were waiting in hyperspace waiting for the humans to finish the battle. Saving energy and Membary lifes..<<

<<Sounds good … as long as you can tell me where in the episode it said what you’re indicating is what happened.>>

Considering the plausibility and considering the percentage of heavywork Trek fans have done for continuity (“They renumbered Warps after Transwarp” “They’re different Klingons” “The Enterprise is too big too cloak” – yeah, sure I picked three discredited ones all VERY canon among fans in their day), you ARE kidding?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-30 20:46:46 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Energy field? A container-sized pocket dimension? Magnetic envelope? (Hey, those have kept the universe from blowing up for decades… remember the effect anti-matter had in “The Alternative Factor”?)<<

<<Ah, but then it’s not a universal solvent, is it?>>

It does everything you could expect of a solvent. I didn’t know one of the properties of a solvent was that it had to be able to jump dimensions at will. Howabout a slo-time envelope? Spatial curving? It sounds to me like you’re saying that one of the properties of a universal solvent is that it must instantly destroy everything in all universes and higher dimensions, leaving absolute oblivion.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 20:48:45 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Congratulations! That’s got to be the funniest response I’ve ever heard! “The universe knows what it’s doing?” Consider what your response would be if someone were to use that line to a point about Star Trek. Talk about trying to have your cake and eating it, too……>>
My response would be “You hypocrite!” I thought I made that perfectly clear. Trek does not have a style or an outlook on life that permits such explanations. B5 does. And if you look down, you’ll see totally rational explanations. Delenn was waiting, so the humans could do it themselves. Sheridan and co. were NOT in any immediate danger of dying.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-30 20:50:29 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Randy, who let you in here anyway? Didn’t you ever figure out that this whole B5 AOL area was made to keep you OUT? You’ve already driven JMS off more than one forum.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-07-31 00:03:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<This is the argument any HUMAN would use. When you’re talking about the self preservation of an entire species there’s only one rule: Us or them.>>

That only applies when the two species are competeing for resources that they must have to survive. War is a much easier way towards extinction than cooperation. Sybiosis is as much a part of evolution as competition.

–AcDec
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:05:46 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I’m sorry but you can’t expect ALL the Romulans to have the same heroic actitude…There could have been a coward there somewhere….And that’s nothing that a stunt phaser and a few hours of brainwash won’t cure. And maybe the Dominion can figure it out by itself, studying the gizmo.
I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing, your latter remark is kind of idealistic again.>>

You are tring to give human emotional resposes to an alien species. To the Romulans death is much better than imprisonment.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:10:42 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<DS9 is copying the plot, (Klingons-Cardassians-Dominion/Century-Narns-Shadows) even the opening secuence has been changed to a more B5-like thing with ships all around and a gray nebula in the back. even now we see Changeling Gowron threatening the people from a TV screen on DS9’s Promenade…Just like ISN network…And more things like that.
And DS9 is not CRAP, I do like the show, but I would like to see somebody else taking the helm on the production department, I would never lower myself to insult a show no matter how bad it is…Even Voyager had one or two good episodes.>>
Do you think JMS is leaking his scripts to Ira Behr. Both storylines evolved at the same time, and have major diffrences. B5 has a monopaly on having a TV on the show? Any spacestation is going to have ships around it. DS9 has changed from a unimportant outpost, to one of the busiest starbases in the quadrent, the opening sequences reflects this.

–AcDec
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:12:39 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The “Shadow plan” started in 1994, but for the sake of argument, OK, let’s see when the Narns starting attacking the Centaury…..”The coming of Shadows” aired February 1st 1995.
“The way of the warrior was still a season away….>>

Yes, but WOTW was being set up since “Defiant”. It aired in NOV. 1994.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:14:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The Feds thinking that was the Prophets sending a message?
They should be demoted to ensing then.
The only one from the crew who believes in the Prophets is Major Kira, the rest have no excuse>>

What show are you watching. Sisko has visited the prophets at least three times. That is why he is the Emissary.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-31 00:15:58 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Either way, they did it for Drama, but my explanation still makes sense. They do have a motive to did what they did, to avoid spilling Membary blood in a cause Delenn is not entirely supported back home.>>

Sorry, but the Earth ships would not have had a chance agiant those Minbari ships. There would be no Minbari blood spilt.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:B5 vs Trek (totally)
Date: 96-07-31 00:19:57 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<There is no doubt that you either have watched TNG and DS9 many many times or
are capable of coming up with an answer for anything negative posted about
either of these series. I remember that in the Borg episode that the
Federation and Klingon fleets were decimated, you say that they weren’t, I
haven’t seen the episode since it was first repeated so I will have to defer
to your knowledge.(though I don’t think you really answered my main point
about the episode)>>

I have seen most of the good episodes more than once, and I have a very good memory.
The Klingons were sending ships, but no more than one made it. 39 Starfleet ships were lost, but that is not all of starfleet, but it did cause concern to starfllet command. (“The Wounded”)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-31 00:21:49 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<So, he started out as the Tactical officer in the cardassian war, was demoted to transporter operator on the Enterprise, and was later promoted to Operations officer on DS9. Enlisted people do not serve as department heads, oh I forgot that this is Trek where they let teenagers who fail the Starfleet entrance exams fly the flagship of the fleet.>>

O’Brians rank had always been a hard thing to clarify. It was not untill DS9 that it was established that he is a chief petty officer.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:25:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Still, you have to wonder why the Feds don’t try to collapse it anyway. We’ve seen two instances where it would be possible to destroy it..(the episode where OBrien was shifting in time and “The Search part II”). With such a looming threat, the Federation, realistically, would see that the Gamma quad is not worth exploring…>>

It would probaly be agianst fed. policy to blowup the home of Bajors religious figures.:)
The search was an illusion created by the changlings, and the Visonary was an alt. timeline that never really happened (like the B5 destroyed timeline).

–AcDec.

As far as Star Trek, First Contact: This “Borg sending one ship” business just doesn’t make sense. Send an entire fleet, destroy the Federation, and be done with it. The same can be said for the dominion…it seems that the alpha quad is sufficiently destabilized to do some damage>>

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:27:19 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I’ve heard rumors that the Dominion is made of a prison colony of outcast Changelings. I heard that Odo meets the real changelings and is restored because the real changelings do not care anything for the outcasts (they, supposedly, don’t kill other changelings unless that changeling is a Dominion outcast.) These rumors may be true, but I don’t know for certain.>>

Strange rumor, but I would take that w/ a big grain of salt.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:28:31 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Fall Of Night was aired in the UK early in the summer before the fall airing of Way of the Warrior. Don’t tell me that no one over here had seen it then because I’d seen it before it was released over here, and I don’t answer to Paramount, the “Co-Opt” happy behemoth.>>

WOTW was planned long before it aired.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:32:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Just like “Romulans never take prisoners”… unless they’re going to be the father of the first Klingon in Starfleet or are the double of a little girl who’ll be Enterprise security chief in 20 years…>>

I thought that the line is STII was “Klingons don’t take prisoners”.
Oh by the way, fir you continuaty freaks; Ron Moore has said that they will explain why the klingons changed appearance in TOS in the new episode “Trials and Tribbleations”. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 00:34:31 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Let’s be realistic here. How many of us WEREN”T thinking of cloaked ships?>>

I was not. Every other ship that went through there had to decloak before going through the wormhole.

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Voyager
Date: 96-07-31 01:12:38 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JV:

True it’s a long time coming (if at all), but TNG featured a lot of recycled plots their first season and their second was an improvement, but they hit their stride after that. Voyager had the misfortune of starting off promising and failing to live up to that. Too politically correct, too much reassurance that the Federation way is good and the Maquis bad. At this stage I can’t say I’m a fan.

Quick fix recommendations? Use the season finale’s plot to supply these people with some righteous indignation and fire in their bellies. That show’s too calm by half. I’m not talking about violence, I’m talking about some social upheaval. Let’s see some more Seskas. Let’s see how Federation-trained people cope with compromise instead of the Maquis every time. I’m no fan of Riker, but if any of his crew had knocked him on his back in front of the deck crew, he would’ve had an appropriate response.

It can be fixed, but it’s going to take a lot of work. If their ratings are a good, they may be satisfied with themselves. More’s the pity. Ratings are a sad way to gauge quality.

Sherry

Subj: Re:Inconsistencies
Date: 96-07-31 01:27:59 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Actually, Delenn showing up on time in “Severed Dreams” was not an inconsistency, it was merely a coincidence. If it had not happened, the plot would have taken another turn (a drastic one, true, but there are always other roads to walk).

Here’s, to me, a true inconsistency:
Presumably, everyone who was on B4 in “Babylon Squared” aged due to the effects of the time distortion field — those without any protection, that is. Why in the world, did it not affect Garibaldi & Sinclair when they left the station originally, as it did the original pilot to investigate? Further, why did it not affect Sheridan? I keep turning that one around and around and I just don’t get it. After all, he suffered much worse exposure to the time distortion field and seems to have come out without a scratch. At first I thought (as Sinclair says) that the closer they get to their own time, the more the damage, but they popped back and forth in “Babylon Squared” and were not harmed. I can’t seem to wrap my mind around that.

But I can’t wait for the release of “The Search for Spot.”;)

Sherry

Subj: Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 03:06:45 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>Slightly improbable timing is tolerated for suspension of disbelief,<<
I always apply the utlimate test: What if this happened on Star Trek? What would the B5 fans say about that? The answer is extremely obvious. It would be another sign that Trek is sinking slowly into the sunset. That creativity has fled the halls of Trekdom and roosted at B5. Can’t have it both ways, folks…..<<

I have NEVER complained about improbable timing in any ST episode(and I can list dozens). The concept of the “cavalry arriving in the nick of time” is probably the oldest cliche in the book, is used to heighten tension and can be ignored, to an extent, because it furthers the plot. Any inconsistency I cite from ST is just plain SLOPPINESS(where are those damned story editors?).

>>O’Brians rank had always been a hard thing to clarify. It was not untill DS9 that it was established that he is a chief petty officer.<<

I’m sorry, did you even read my post? I gave you an early series example(two,actually) where it was established, CLEARLY, that O’Brien was an officer.

>>Amazing how some B5 folk can dance all around something and never see it. Like I said, O’Brien is a non-com. His rank doesn’t change the way the regular Starfleet officers do. He has gone from one assignment to another. And Sisko has put him in charge of DS9 operations, thus leading to him being called “Chief.”<<

I noticed how neither of you faithfully blind robots responded to my post where I gave an example.
And what was that about Spot? No one magically changes sexes, ranks, or cranial deformities on B5.

>>WOTW was planned long before it aired.<<

I knew you would arrive here eventually. B5 was written in 1987. Is that back far enough for you?

 

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 12:34:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I’m sorry, did you even read my post? I gave you an early series example(two,actually) where it was established, CLEARLY, that O’Brien was an officer. >>

O’Brian was also refered to as a CPO in “Family”. I will be the first one to admit that they screwed up when the called him leutinant.

<< And what was that about Spot? No one magically changes sexes, ranks, or cranial deformities on B5.>>
I will be the first one to admit that B5 has much better continuaty than ST. B5 has essentialy one writer, while each trek show has at least 6 staff writers, not to mention interns, and free-lancers. However, a cat changing sexes does not take away from my enjoyment of a story.

<<I knew you would arrive here eventually. B5 was written in 1987. Is that back far enough for you?>>

JMS had all of the scripts written that long ago? I did not know that Ira Behr and Ron Moore got a hold of all of those scripts.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 20:25:52 EDT
From: Rushylon 5
Posted on: America Online

<<JMS had all of the scripts written that long ago? I did not know that Ira Behr and Ron Moore got a hold of all of those scripts.>>

AcDec,

It’s obvious to see that you are intelligent. It’s also obvious to see that you are a trek fan. It’s also obvious to see that you would rather justify many of things that go on in the trek universe (save Voyager, which is where I knew you were intelligent 😉 )rather than admit that trek has, in some instances, responded to what B5 has done. The two I think that are directly attributable to a reaction to B5 are:

1) Opening sequence- yes, DS9 has become busier, but is that really, truly the reason you think they changed the sequence? If so, then I have to believe you as I don’t have any idea what you really think.

2) Increase in mini-arcs- yes, TNG did have a rather long running thread of Klingon stories involving Worf, however I don’t take those stories as “arcs” in the same way as B5 has an “arc.” (The Klingon stories, to me, were stories that someone thought up at the writing meeting and it was decided that a story should be made of this idea. The fact that many of these ideas have come up does not indicate to me an *intention* of a continuing storyline, with the possible exception of Worf being/not being accepted as Klingon.) The mini-arcs in DS9, however, have a definite feel of purpose (i.e. The Dominion and Jem’Hadar were created by the writers to act as a sustaining drama point). It is painfully obvious, to me, that these mini-arcs began after B5 was on the air. I think you know that when I say that, I am not talking of the scripts JMS wrote in 1987, but rather upon seeing B5, DS9 decided to “try that.” Again, if this is not what *you* truly believe, so be it.

For my money DS9 is best (and yes I do like the show) when they stay away from the mini-arcs for a reason you agree with; they don’t have the best continuity. “The Visitor” (correct me if I’m wrong with the title) with old Jake was one of my favorite shows period this year (albeit with trek you still had to put up with technobabble).

This post is way longer than I intended, but I just thought you would like to know you don’t have to justify every little thing in trek (I think that’s impossible with any show, i.e. “Infection”).

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-31 22:06:40 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>> Randy, who let you in here anyway? Didn’t you ever figure out that this whole B5 AOL area was made to keep you OUT? You’ve already driven JMS off more than one forum.<<

Oh, really? Name ONE forum I “drove JMS off.”
Randy

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 22:12:19 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>neither of you faithfully blind robots<<

At least we don’t think the universe knows what it’s doing….
Randy

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 22:18:34 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>And what was that about Spot? No one magically changes sexes, ranks, or cranial deformities on B5.<<

The cat thing was a plain and simple mistake. I don’t think O’Brien’s rank is a problem, and the 30th anniversary Trek episode of DS9 is supposed to deal with the difference in Klingons.

Speaking of baddies, I’ve got a couple of questions about Bester. They find a ship of 100 telepaths in cryogenic stasis and pull out one guy, then put him back and pull out Bester’s lover! And to make the cheese more binding, Bester’s speechometer kicks in and he tells Sheridan and Ivanova all about his greatest vulnerability. What’s with that Psi-Cop? Does he…

A) think the B5 folks are just too darn nice to use that info against him?

B) figure he’s gonna kill them all eventually, so the info doesn’t matter?

C) have a quota of lines to fill per episode?

or what?

Randy

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 22:34:16 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<What show are you watching. Sisko has visited the prophets at least three times. That is why he is the Emissary.>>
Yeah, and he STILL didn’t believe, religously or otherwise. Remember what a hard (and unrealistic) sell Kira had to him to convince him that old Valen’s (sorry, honestly don’t remember the name) prophecies JUST MIGHT have been given him by the wormhole aliens? Sisko’s rationalistic universe doesn’t easily give credence to things like prophecy even when it’s scientifically determinable. (But then, he may have just read too many ship’s manifests from the Enterprise. “Come ON! ALL these possible futures can’t come true! Obviously the wormhole people don’t see anything we could call the ‘real’ future.”)

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-31 22:35:11 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Sorry, but the Earth ships would not have had a chance agiant those Minbari ships. There would be no Minbari blood spilt.>>

“With all due respect, I’ve heard that before.”

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 22:37:35 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<the Visonary was an alt. timeline that never really happened (like the B5 destroyed timeline).>>
How exactly do the laws of physics change from timeline to timeline? This episode, on the contrary, established that it is perfectly possible to blow up the wormhole. And the Bajorans know full well that puny technology isn’t going to destroy their gods. 😉

Subj: Re: Coincidences
Date: 96-07-31 22:38:34 EDT
From: MegaUser
Posted on: America Online

Coincidences >>DO<< happen in real life (hence the existence of the term), and, therefore, it’s not unreasonable for them to also happen on B5. There are entire books (and spiritual belief systems) based on the concept of synchronicity…

As JMS explained: It isn’t unreasonable for an >>occasional<< coincidence to occur on B5, just as they do in real life. As long as they don’t happen too frequently, it’s no big deal.

The important distinction here is that the legitimate criticisms of Star Trek are complaints of inconsistencies: a cat changing gender for the sake of a story element, etc.

A coincidence and an inconsistency are two drastically different things. The first reminds you that there may be an overall force in the universe, and the latter reminds you that you’re in a fictional universe where there obviously isn’t a guiding force.

Look at it this way: In a casino, you can bet on a coincidence (will all three wheels on the slot machine come up with the same picture? will the number you bet on come up on the roulette wheel? etc.). Show me someplace where you can bet on an inconsistency (if you’re willing to that one of my cats will change gender arbitrarily, I’m willing!).

–Seth

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 22:40:31 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I’ve heard rumors that the Dominion is made of a prison colony of outcast Changelings. I heard that Odo meets the real changelings and is restored because the real changelings do not care anything for the outcasts (they, supposedly, don’t kill other changelings unless that changeling is a Dominion outcast.) These rumors may be true, but I don’t know for certain.>>

<<Strange rumor, but I would take that w/ a big grain of salt.>>

Mind you (bearing in mind that Odo searched long and hard for a race of shapeshifters in the AQ without success), it would explain Captain Garth’s friends, the race in the TOS Halloween episode, the extra-galactic “styrofoam-dodecahedron” aliens, Iman’s people, any number of Organian-like races…
The “best constable in the alpha quadrant” sure didn’t look too hard…

 

Subj: PS
Date: 96-07-31 22:40:50 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Oh, yeah, the salt monster.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 22:42:22 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Just like “Romulans never take prisoners”… unless they’re going to be the father of the first Klingon in Starfleet or are the double of a little girl who’ll be Enterprise security chief in 20 years…>>

<<I thought that the line is STII was “Klingons don’t take prisoners”.>>

Yeah, but Styles pointed out the same of Romulans in “Balance of Terror.” (Sarek has GOT to be a sleeper agent…)

Subj: Why Bester told them so much
Date: 96-07-31 22:43:07 EDT
From: MegaUser
Posted on: America Online

In regards to Bester’s lover:

He has no qualms about admitting that he has a wife, but he doesn’t love her. As he said, it was a genetic pairing arranged by the Corps. If you don’t care about something, it can’t be used against you.

He had no reason not to tell them about his lover, but he did have a reason why he should: By telling them, he reassured them of his intentions to work towards their mutual interest for the duration of the war. As was said in the episode several times: after the Shadows are defeated, Bester and the B5 crew won’t be on the same side anymore…

–Seth

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-07-31 22:43:11 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I was not. Every other ship that went through there had to decloak before going through the wormhole.>>
The rules of cloaking change upon convenience. Why, 80 years ago, there was a bird of prey that could fire when cloaked…

Subj: Re:Inconsistencies
Date: 96-07-31 22:47:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Presumably, everyone who was on B4 in “Babylon Squared” aged due to the effects of the time distortion field — those without any protection, that is. Why in the world, did it not affect Garibaldi & Sinclair when they left the station originally, as it did the original pilot to investigate? Further, why did it not affect Sheridan? I keep turning that one around and around and I just don’t get it. After all, he suffered much worse exposure to the time distortion field and seems to have come out without a scratch. At first I thought (as Sinclair says) that the closer they get to their own time, the more the damage, but they popped back and forth in “Babylon Squared” and were not harmed. I can’t seem to wrap my mind around that.>>

I think the idea was that, even for Zathras’ science (which more or less consisted, if I read it right, of memorizing users’ manuals), the time distortion effects were unpredictable and random… like where one ends up when one jumps. (Sheridan may also be immune to aging effects because of events in his future… see Za’ha’dum folder) Sinclair or someone made a point of how lucky they were compared to the pilot, so this isn’t really an inconsistency, in that it was addressed at least. Like how Kosh could be poisoned.

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 22:49:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I have NEVER complained about improbable timing in any ST episode(and I can list dozens). The concept of the “cavalry arriving in the nick of time” is probably the oldest cliche in the book, is used to heighten tension and can be ignored, to an extent, because it furthers the plot.>>
Fact of the matter is, while Trek’s faults can be counted on fingers (of all earthlings), good dramatic tension and the devices associated with crisp storytelling are NOT among them.

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 22:54:29 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The Klingon stories, to me, were stories that someone thought up at the writing meeting and it was decided that a story should be made of this idea. The fact that many of these ideas have come up does not indicate to me an *intention* of a continuing storyline, with the possible exception of Worf being/not being accepted as Klingon.>>

Have to agree with this. It seems pretty obvious that when Worf was separated from his people, the writers may have had a vague idea of redeeming him somehow in the indeterminate future (and this is undoubted the best that can be said), or they may have really meant to cut him off from his people and show the slow story of his coming to accept himself as a member of the Federation. Either way, not exactly a story-arc.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-07-31 22:58:06 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>> Randy, who let you in here anyway? Didn’t you ever figure out that this whole B5 AOL area was made to keep you OUT? You’ve already driven JMS off more than one forum.<<

<<Oh, really? Name ONE forum I “drove JMS off.”>>

I’m really not going to beat this one to death anymore, because we’re all too familiar with your gainsaying techniques. I would just hate to see JMS leave again because you’ve reared your rude little head in here now.

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-07-31 23:00:20 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<At least we don’t think the universe knows what it’s doing….>>
This is:
(1) an example of the previous
(2) childish, pure and simple
(3) a real pity, and the reason you’re so addicted to Trek’s stale world with its 1-dim philosophy of easy answers

(Maybe if we all just ignore him he’ll go away again. With us, AcDec?)

Subj: Re: Coincidences
Date: 96-07-31 23:03:31 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< There are entire books (and spiritual belief systems) based on the concept of synchronicity…>>
Notably Delenn’s… which just so happens to be instrumental in the series. (Notice the link from Zathras, of all people, between Minbari philosophy and the destinies of the major players, at the end of WWE)

Subj: Re: Coincidences
Date: 96-07-31 23:05:45 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<As JMS explained: It isn’t unreasonable for an >>occasional<< coincidence to occur on B5, just as they do in real life. As long as they don’t happen too frequently, it’s no big deal.>>
It’s also worth pointing out that one of JMS’ original explanations (and I still get a kick out of these) for O’Hare’s departure was that it was too much of a coincidence that Sinclair, after the battle of the line, etc, would be the one to lose his wife on Z’ha’dum. (But notice Catherine was an archaelogist… I think the EA University of Archaelogy is the size of Britain and drafts in 10% of earth’s population)

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-01 01:13:40 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Congratulations! That’s got to be the funniest response I’ve ever heard! “The universe knows what it’s doing?” >>

Funny or not, it’s basically what Delenn has said is going on with the universe (at least, in her belief system). Intelligent life is here so the universe can figure itself out. Things happen because they are fated to happen.

You might find George Bernard Shaw’s play “Man and Superman” interesting. It actually is two plays that mix together, one of which is “Don Juan in Hell.” One of the basic premises is that Don Juan discusses Nietschean philosophy (I’m sure I spelled that wrong…) with anybody that will listen — and some people who won’t.

For “die hard” Star Trek fans, one of the more famous productions of “Don Juan in Hell” starred Ricardo Montalban (Khan Noonian Singh from “Star Trek:The Wroth of Kan” [Shatner’s pronunciation]).
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 01:23:58 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Oh by the way, fir you continuaty freaks; Ron Moore has said that they will explain why the klingons changed appearance in TOS in the new episode “Trials and Tribbleations”. >>

Now that’s one I would like to see. It’s not enough that the Klingons had two different groups, or genetic engineering, or whatever. On DS9 we have seen THREE Klingons from the original series (Kang, Kor, and Koloth) who suddenly show up with “Klingon-nouveau” wrinkled foreheads — and not just because they’re old.

I’m willing to accept the idea that, because more money for make up was available, they decided to change the make up in “Star Trek:The Motion Picture,” but for the first 15 minutes I thought it was another alien race that had “borrowed” Klingon design (as the Romulans did in the original series — when the production staff lost the model for the Romulan bird of prey).

But considering all the effort they’ve gone to in an attempt to reconcile continuity glitches, after more than 15 years it’s about time they came up with a good explanation in the series for why the Klingons’ look changed.

Certainly, it’s more than we’ll ever hear for why Delenn suddenly went from male to female between the pilot and the first series episode of B5. Too bad that idea didn’t work out — it would have made her transformation even more blatant, as regards the “why” of it.
Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-01 11:09:49 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“At least we don’t think the universe knows what it’s doing…”

This is an example of Minbarri mystisism. It is hardly held up as a paragon of truth and it is apperent that most minbarri don’t believe it, either. There is the difference. On B5, such metaphysical BS isn’t put forth as an inmutable truth, only as the belief of one character. Other characters believe in other things and those beliefs are handled as just as valid.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 11:15:11 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

“But considering all the effort they’ve gone to in an attempt to reconcile continuity glitches, after more than 15 years it’s about time they came up with a good explanation in the series for why the Klingons’ look changed.”

I disagree. The reason Klingons changed apperence was because Gene Rodanbury was able to make them look a lot more like he originally pictured them. It’s that simple and I don’t see a problem with them looking so much different from the original series to the later incarnations.

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-01 19:54:32 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>JMS had all of the scripts written that long ago? I did not know that Ira Behr and Ron Moore got a hold of all of those scripts.<<

I never accused ST of ripping off JMS’ scripts. They may have “responded” with some B5isitc story elements, but so what? I think the show (DS9) is better for it.

>>Speaking of baddies, I’ve got a couple of questions about Bester. They find a ship of 100 telepaths in cryogenic stasis and pull out one guy, then put him back and pull out Bester’s lover! And to make the cheese more binding, Bester’s speechometer kicks in and he tells Sheridan and Ivanova all about his greatest vulnerability. What’s with that Psi-Cop? Does he…

A) think the B5 folks are just too darn nice to use that info against him?

B) figure he’s gonna kill them all eventually, so the info doesn’t matter?

C) have a quota of lines to fill per episode?

or what?<<

In response to Bester finding his woman on the second try, true, a little hard to swallow. And I am not going to hide behind the coincidence theory, I rolled my eyes like everyone else. Still, one example of extreme coincidence is better than constant changing premises. As to your multiple choice, how about D) He’s human. And besides, what are they going to do with that info? Hold his woman hostage? Torture her? I don’t think so. Not much of a vulnerbility, is it?

>>At least we don’t think the universe knows what it’s doing….<<

If you are going to attempt to rebutt my statements at least use a quote that you can attribute to me.

 

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-01 22:50:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<1) Opening sequence- yes, DS9 has become busier, but is that really, truly the reason you think they changed the sequence? If so, then I have to believe you as I don’t have any idea what you really think.>>

I’m not really sure about this one but I will comment later after I find the post in which Ron Moore explained this bit.

<<2) Increase in mini-arcs- yes, TNG did have a rather long running thread of Klingon stories involving Worf, however I don’t take those stories as “arcs” in the same way as B5 has an “arc.” (The Klingon stories, to me, were stories that someone thought up at the writing meeting and it was decided that a story should be made of this idea. The fact that many of these ideas have come up does not indicate to me an *intention* of a continuing storyline, with the possible exception of Worf being/not being accepted as Klingon.) The mini-arcs in DS9, however, have a definite feel of purpose (i.e. The Dominion and Jem’Hadar were created by the writers to act as a sustaining drama point). It is painfully obvious, to me, that these mini-arcs began after B5 was on the air. I think you know that when I say that, I am not talking of the scripts JMS wrote in 1987, but rather upon seeing B5, DS9 decided to “try that.” Again, if this is not what *you* truly believe, so be it.>>

Not even the dominion “arc” is pre-planned, yes the race was created for an ongoing threat, but so were the Maquis, The Duras family, and even the “conspiracy” aliens. When starting TNG, G.R. wanted a greater since of contiuaty than on TOS. DS9 takes it to extremes because it is on a space station, and they have no choice but to have continuing stories. They can’t warp away every week.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 22:53:49 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Yeah, and he STILL didn’t believe, religously or otherwise. Remember what a hard (and unrealistic) sell Kira had to him to convince him that old Valen’s (sorry, honestly don’t remember the name) prophecies JUST MIGHT have been given him by the wormhole aliens? Sisko’s rationalistic universe doesn’t easily give credence to things like prophecy even when it’s scientifically determinable. (But then, he may have just read too many ship’s manifests from the Enterprise. “Come ON! ALL these possible futures can’t come true! Obviously the wormhole people don’t see anything we could call the ‘real’ future.”)>>

He believes in the aliens, he just thought that the prophecies were made up. At least he was openminded enough to finally do somthing to do about it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-01 22:55:02 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< “With all due respect, I’ve heard that before.”>>

Yes, but as Deleen said, sheridan is on her side. Also, there were no asteroids in the area to set traps.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 22:56:04 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< How exactly do the laws of physics change from timeline to timeline? This episode, on the contrary, established that it is perfectly possible to blow up the wormhole. And the Bajorans know full well that puny technology isn’t going to destroy their gods. ;)>>

Yes, but after you destroy the mouth, the aliens could always re-open it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 22:58:06 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Mind you (bearing in mind that Odo searched long and hard for a race of shapeshifters in the AQ without success), it would explain Captain Garth’s friends, the race in the TOS Halloween episode, the extra-galactic “styrofoam-dodecahedron” aliens, Iman’s people, any number of Organian-like races…
The “best constable in the alpha quadrant” sure didn’t look too hard…>>

Yea, but there were diffrent species of shapeshifters. Odo was the first of his kind found.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 23:00:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Yeah, but Styles pointed out the same of Romulans in “Balance of Terror.” (Sarek has GOT to be a sleeper agent…)>>

Considering that the only time that they had contact with Romulans prior to that episode was in the Earth-Romulan war, they did not even know what they look like for cry’n out loud. And it would be hard to take prisoners from space ships blown up by nukes.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-01 23:03:03 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The rules of cloaking change upon convenience. Why, 80 years ago, there was a bird of prey that could fire when cloaked…>>

Yes, but it was not a very good cloak. A topedo could home in on the ship.
I guess they had to sacrifice some of it’s cloaking ability so that it could fire.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-01 23:06:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Have to agree with this. It seems pretty obvious that when Worf was separated from his people, the writers may have had a vague idea of redeeming him somehow in the indeterminate future (and this is undoubted the best that can be said), or they may have really meant to cut him off from his people and show the slow story of his coming to accept himself as a member of the Federation. Either way, not exactly a story-arc.>>

It was not a pre-planned story arc, but it was still an arc. The writers on DS9 don’t know how they are going to end the dominion story either.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-02 01:36:21 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<You might find George Bernard Shaw’s play “Man and Superman” interesting. >>

Actually, Vibber, I find the appendix of quotations by “John Tanner, Member of the Idle Rich”, more interesting even than the play. (Which is essential for the understanding of some of the wackier, trendier philosophical movements of the day) In particular one that applies very nicely to Trek’s Federation (and, by sheer coincidence, the whole Roddenberry way of life): “The more ignorant men are, the more they are convinced that their little chapel or their little parish is the apex to which civilization has painfully struggled up.” What Shaw said of religion is FAR more true of other institutions (universities, most television/movies in general) in today’s world.
And can’t you just HEAR Eddington saying this?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:39:07 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<(as the Romulans did in the original series — when the production staff lost the model for the Romulan bird of prey).>>
Is THAT what happened? The “working together” thing never seemed remotely believable. The original internal explanation (before the Romulans and Klingons were retconned into “vicious enemies from of old”), by fans of course, was that the Klingons got cloaking technology in exchange for their ship designs, presumably superior to the Romulan. (And then, in ST3, suddenly the Klingons had “birds of prey”???)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:41:38 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I disagree. The reason Klingons changed apperence was because Gene Rodanbury was able to make them look a lot more like he originally pictured them. It’s that simple and I don’t see a problem with them looking so much different from the original series to the later incarnations.>>
If they’d been consistent about it, I agree… but it’s quite a jump from “Klingons can pass for human” (“Trouble with Tribbles”) to “eeww, lookit the freaks!” Suddenly a whole lot more work was retconned into Darvin’s (sp?) impersonation. But I suppose it was still possible, even in Kirk’s day.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:47:11 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes, but after you destroy the mouth, the aliens could always re-open it.>>
Why would they? In fact, they’ve made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that they wish we’d stop coming in to bother them. Problem solved. Also, it’s not entirely clear that the aliens DO have anything to do with the wormhole. That was the implication in the pilot (it’s been awhile, so bear with me) but as I recall that was only because the wormhole was vaguely atypical. Maybe the aliens just happen to live in the dimension that the wormhole passes through. Like the Subspace aliens. (Wish they’d followed up on that – I always had the idea that it’d have been cool to find out Fed was completely in the wrong… like their “subspace transmissions” all those years had been causing them real injury taken as intentional.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:48:59 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Yea, but there were diffrent species of shapeshifters. Odo was the first of his kind found.>>
But everyone on DS9, my point is, always talked as if a race of Shapeshifters was such a profound idea. And exactly how was it established that Iman’s kind were different? Or Garth’s? They were xenophobes as I recall (gee, no similarity there), if more altruistic, and hence I don’t think Starfleet ever got a tricorder near them.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:52:34 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Considering that the only time that they had contact with Romulans prior to that episode was in the Earth-Romulan war, they did not even know what they look like for cry’n out loud. And it would be hard to take prisoners from space ships blown up by nukes.>>
Fair enough. If yet another example of Trek’s retconning the spirit of established things. (Never any “Guess we’ve been wrong about the Romulans not…”) The big point along these lines was the retconning (TWICE – in history, and in the intervening decades) of the Romulans to major players about whom a lot was known… and the retconnning of BOTH Romulans and Klingons (the former within TOS) to know all about their connections. (Hypothesized by Spock… later a time-honored bit of Vulcan lore… and Styles was SOOO bigoted to be suspicious of Spock’s honesty…)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 01:55:04 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes, but it was not a very good cloak. A topedo could home in on the ship.
I guess they had to sacrifice some of it’s cloaking ability so that it could fire.>>
It was my understanding that the two things were unrelated. That the torpedo just homed in on the ionized gas being emitted by impulse engines. Not a flaw in the cloaking device, perhaps something that could be compensated for later (though how is beyond me, without brand new subwarp speeds theory), but no fault of the cloaking device, which was just an electromagnetic blind. (Which brings up the question… would a cloaking device work in an atmosphere… ie, radar or sonar?)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 10:00:22 EDT
From: GWRepBobby
Posted on: America Online

‘If they’d been consistent about it, I agree… but it’s quite a jump from “Klingons can pass for human” (“Trouble with Tribbles”) to “eeww, lookit the freaks!”‘

This is just nitpicking, Mytho. I don’t want to get into justifying or speculating, Acdec is the expert there, but, off hand I can think of a number of ways a modern Klingon can pass for human ranging from extensive surgery to something like a Changeling Net. I realize that Star Trek and it’s appologists are sometimes fustrating, but, sometimes you have to go with the flow. I have a lot of problems with Klingons dealing with thier changing attitudes and behavoirs, but I just can’t bring myself to critisize the change in the way they look.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 13:01:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Why would they? In fact, they’ve made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that they wish we’d stop coming in to bother them. Problem solved. Also, it’s not entirely clear that the aliens DO have anything to do with the wormhole. That was the implication in the pilot (it’s been awhile, so bear with me) but as I recall that was only because the wormhole was vaguely atypical. Maybe the aliens just happen to live in the dimension that the wormhole passes through. Like the Subspace aliens. (Wish they’d followed up on that – I always had the idea that it’d have been cool to find out Fed was completely in the wrong… like their “subspace transmissions” all those years had been causing them real injury taken as intentional.)>>

The aliens clearly controll the Wormhole. In “Emmisary” they closed the whole themselves, and then re-opened it later..

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 13:04:13 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But everyone on DS9, my point is, always talked as if a race of Shapeshifters was such a profound idea. And exactly how was it established that Iman’s kind were different? Or Garth’s? They were xenophobes as I recall (gee, no similarity there), if more altruistic, and hence I don’t think Starfleet ever got a tricorder near them.>>

Odo’s people are pecuiler. Other shapeshifter have solid bodies, Odo’s natural form is a liquid.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 13:07:18 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< It was my understanding that the two things were unrelated. That the torpedo just homed in on the ionized gas being emitted by impulse engines. Not a flaw in the cloaking device, perhaps something that could be compensated for later (though how is beyond me, without brand new subwarp speeds theory), but no fault of the cloaking device, which was just an electromagnetic blind. (Which brings up the question… would a cloaking device work in an atmosphere… ie, radar or sonar?)>>

The tech advisor`(Mike Okuda) said that the reason the torpedoe trick worked was becuse of the trade off bewteen perfect cloaking and firing while cloaked.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 23:10:13 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< I have a lot of problems with Klingons dealing with thier changing attitudes and behavoirs, but I just can’t bring myself to critisize the change in the way they look.>>
Agreed, GW. I’m more than willing to ignore the “old Klingon look” as just one more difference in budgets… Heck, no one complains about that “clunky” computer look in the old series. And I can’t help thinking that the more Trek tries to acknowledge something objectively there, the more of a hole they’re going to dig for themselves. I just wish they’d leave it alone.
Of course, any of the old theories do still work (halfbreeds to keep their differences secret, surgical alteration, a conquered planet of “other” Klingon-like creatures, etc) – since Kang, Kor, and Koloth could have been “altered” or “altered back” to the modern Klingon look after their tours of duty involving earth.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 23:12:04 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The aliens clearly controll the Wormhole. In “Emmisary” they closed the whole themselves, and then re-opened it later..>>
I’m not saying they can’t control it. Heck, they could probably control anything they wanted to (like Q could do before that hideous Voyager rape-of-a-retcon). I’m just saying they may not have CREATED the Wormhole, and may not have much interest in the thing as a corridor per se. In fact, I think the latter’s been made very clear.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 23:14:13 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Odo’s people are pecuiler. Other shapeshifter have solid bodies, Odo’s natural form is a liquid.>>
How do we know this of Iman’s kind? How do we know it of Garth’s? (If the Changelings could de-Changeling Odo (I still wince at that turn of events), they could probably grant Changeling-like powers to the dying Garth. Then again, maybe “Garth” was NEVER what he appeared to be…)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-02 23:17:14 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The tech advisor`(Mike Okuda) said that the reason the torpedoe trick worked was becuse of the trade off bewteen perfect cloaking and firing while cloaked.>>
I don’t follow where this comes from anything presented in the movie. Cloaking, as I understand it, as Spock and Kirk and so on clearly understood it, just makes the ship invisible. It was pretty clear that Spock and Uhura just dreamed up a loophole that no one had ever thought to take advantage of before. There was no, “Gee, maybe this’ll work because I hypothesize that there must have been a tradeoff between…” And I suppose that the the stuff hitting the side of the Klingon ship in the park was because of an imperfect cloak too. Sorry, with all due respect to Mr. Okuda, I just don’t buy it.

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-03 00:01:22 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>>> Randy, who let you in here anyway? Didn’t you ever figure out that this whole B5 AOL area was made to keep you OUT? You’ve already driven JMS off more than one forum.<<

<<Oh, really? Name ONE forum I “drove JMS off.”>>

I’m really not going to beat this one to death anymore, because we’re all too familiar with your gainsaying techniques. I would just hate to see JMS leave again because you’ve reared your rude little head in here now.<<

In other words, NONE! Glad we cleared that up.
Randy

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-03 00:03:04 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>> (Maybe if we all just ignore him he’ll go away again. With us, AcDec?)<<

OTOH, maybe if we ignore you, you’ll go away again.
Randy

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-03 00:04:38 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

So in other words, it’s OK if B5 does it but a terrible, horrible sign of fading creativity and intelligence if it happens on Star Trek…..

Randy

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-03 01:52:05 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

Now, Mr Hall, just for the record, I never gave a Denebenian leech’s snarglies about how O’Brien’s rank works. I don’t care. Your explanation works for something as subtle as that. I am, in fact, willing to overlook flaws in ST if I enjoy the story at any time. The only thing I don’t like is the writing for “Generations” and the majority of Voyager eps. Of course, the DS9 eps about Roswell and 007 kind of ruined the series for me (I didn’t mind the Quark’s Mother episode, even).
I loved the one with old Jake (was it the Visitor?) and WOTW was fun, and before that the series kept me watching, but it’s the horrible episodes that pop up that do the damage. And, also for the record, I hated the King Arthur episode of B5, too. (Of course, if it were Highlander, the premise would be [potentially] hilarious!)

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-03 02:01:33 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Randy, who let you in here anyway? Didn’t you ever figure out that this whole B5 AOL area was made to keep you OUT? You’ve already driven JMS off more than one forum.<<

No, not Randy. He and Wayne are usually reasonable. Theron Fuller and Ford Thaxton were probably the culprits there. I’ve heard from (name witheld) some stories of his encounter with Ford that lead me to suspect such (not to mention my own experiences). HFMoon knows what I’m talking about, because he was at the Party, too. We speculated when he or some other trekker would show up with a ST Beach Party to try to show us up.

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-03 02:19:15 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>
Speaking of baddies, I’ve got a couple of questions about Bester. They find a ship of 100 telepaths in cryogenic stasis and pull out one guy, then put him back and pull out Bester’s lover! <<

Coincidence pops up in dozens of ST episodes. It doesn’t bother me. This little coincidence hardly bugs me either. Why don’t you get over it and attack the pilot (rich with ‘quirks’ you can exploit) instead.

>> And to make the cheese more binding, Bester’s speechometer kicks in and he tells Sheridan and Ivanova all about his greatest vulnerability. What’s with that Psi-Cop? Does he…

A) think the B5 folks are just too darn nice to use that info against him?

B) figure he’s gonna kill them all eventually, so the info doesn’t matter?

C) have a quota of lines to fill per episode?

or what?<<

I’ll take A and B. I think he thinks he’s too valuable to them for them to do anything. That is overconfidence, which we all know Bester has. And of course he’s planning to kill them later! 😉

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-03 02:21:14 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>><<Sorry, but the Earth ships would not have had a chance agiant those Minbari ships. There would be no Minbari blood spilt.>>

“With all due respect, I’ve heard that before.”<<

Ooooh, very subtle!

Subj: Re:Apples and Oranges, again
Date: 96-08-03 19:08:59 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>So in other words, it’s OK if B5 does it but a terrible, horrible sign of fading creativity and intelligence if it happens on Star Trek…..<<

I’m still waiting for a viable example…

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-03 23:43:24 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I’m not saying they can’t control it. Heck, they could probably control anything they wanted to (like Q could do before that hideous Voyager rape-of-a-retcon). I’m just saying they may not have CREATED the Wormhole, and may not have much interest in the thing as a corridor per se. In fact, I think the latter’s been made very clear.>>

They have obviusly taken an intrest in Bajor, and for them to continue to interact with them would require them to leave it open. And it was stated in an episode that the prophets were the ones who kept the wormhole stable.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-03 23:46:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< How do we know this of Iman’s kind? How do we know it of Garth’s? (If the Changelings could de-Changeling Odo (I still wince at that turn of events), they could probably grant Changeling-like powers to the dying Garth. Then again, maybe “Garth” was NEVER what he appeared to be…)>>

The changlings have to turn liquid before the change, the others did not. And considering how much the changlings hate solids, I doubt they will give their power to a solid (even if they could).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-03 23:49:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I don’t follow where this comes from anything presented in the movie. Cloaking, as I understand it, as Spock and Kirk and so on clearly understood it, just makes the ship invisible. It was pretty clear that Spock and Uhura just dreamed up a loophole that no one had ever thought to take advantage of before. There was no, “Gee, maybe this’ll work because I hypothesize that there must have been a tradeoff between…” And I suppose that the the stuff hitting the side of the Klingon ship in the park was because of an imperfect cloak too. Sorry, with all due respect to Mr. Okuda, I just don’t buy it.>>

In “Face of the Enemy” it was said that cloaking devices mask all emisions, the one in STVI did not. It was not explained in the movie, so there is no officail explanation, but Okuda did work on that movie.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-03 23:51:52 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Of course, the DS9 eps about Roswell and 007 kind of ruined the series for me (I didn’t mind the Quark’s Mother episode, even). >>

Both of those episode were made just for laughs and had no effect on the series as a whole, why would they ruin the whole show? B5 has had some horrid eps, but I still love the show.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 01:32:20 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<They have obviusly taken an intrest in Bajor, and for them to continue to interact with them would require them to leave it open.>>
Did you get that impression? I certainly didn’t. Did they ever actually say it? (They could well have, for all I remember) I just kind of had the impression that the Bajorans found some relics of theirs and formed a religion out of it. But it’s been a LONG time since I saw the pilot. Did they ever explain how the orbs got to Bajor? Were they sent? Were they lost? I had the vague idea that the wormhole aliens didn’t know or care that they’d been found… in fact this must be the case because the whole concept of “beings like Sisko” was a novelty to them.
<<And it was stated in an episode that the prophets were the ones who kept the wormhole stable.>> It’s not that I don’t don’t trust you, Otis… Um, I don’t trust you, Otis. Which episode was this? Again, it could very well be. But was it ever explicitly stated that they WANT to keep the womhole stable or need to? It could just be an unnoticed by-product of some activity of theirs… and we’ve seen no evidence yet that they WOULD reopen it. It doesn’t answer the basic question of why Starfleet hasn’t tried this. Taking Sisko’s word for it that aliens were vaguely connected with the wormhole and might re-open it is a far cry from what I call the “swamp castle” routine on B5 where they kept building Babylon stations until one succeeded.
I really don’t see how collapsing the entrance affects their timeless little dimension uninterested in our petty linear lives. (Heck, if they don’t understand linear time they shouldn’t even notice it gone… but that’s a low blow.)

Subj: Re:Star Trek doesn’t make se
Date: 96-08-04 01:38:00 EDT
From: L5592
Posted on: America Online

hey buddy,
you should check out the star fleet manuel.
it is pretty good
check it OUT
larry h

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 01:38:51 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The changlings have to turn liquid before the change, the others did not. And considering how much the changlings hate solids, I doubt they will give their power to a solid (even if they could).>>
Oh come on – Iman’s kind used virtually the same SPFX as I recall. And it’s silly to argue about those when we’re willing to overlook Klingon makeup (variable even WITHIN TOS). And maybe all Changelings DON’T hate solids. The Founders must have come from somewhere, and their hatred has been culturally explained… distant relatives (and AQ relatives would be VERY distant) might not share it.
“Even if they could”??? Turning Odo to a solid was out of the blue and puts their tech on a par with “Cloaking devices?! These people should be able to make their OWN Wormholes.” Sorry, but that Odo ending really left a bad taste in my mouth, there being absolutely no evidence before this that they could do things like that. It was classic Trek writing – we want to do this, therefore this can be done. Once you’ve established that they can take every gene in an organism and change it utterly, including turning the organism relatively instantaneously into a reflection of those new genes, it should be just as easy to reverse the process. (Of course, we all know Odo’s going to be turned back eventually. It’s just a question of whether the Changelings, Wesley, Q, or Bashir will do it.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 01:41:43 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<In “Face of the Enemy” it was said that cloaking devices mask all emisions, the one in STVI did not.>>
Fair enough, but this is consistent with what I said. They’d have been fools not to compensate for it after Kirk’s little triumph. (I reiterate that I don’t see how it could be done without a whole unrelated level of tech in the cloaking device – but this is nit-picking, esp. with Trek.) But this doesn’t mean that Chang’s (?) was flawed. That explanation seems, as I said, to destroy the brilliance of Spock’s idea and turn it into a real long shot.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 13:26:00 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I’m more than willing to ignore the “old Klingon look” as just one more difference in budgets… Heck, no one complains about that “clunky” computer look in the old series. And I can’t help thinking that the more Trek tries to acknowledge something objectively there, the more of a hole they’re going to dig for themselves. I just wish they’d leave it alone. >>

Amen!
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 13:42:16 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< The changlings have to turn liquid before the change, the others did not. And considering how much the changlings hate solids, I doubt they will give their power to a solid (even if they could). >>

Maybe that’s just because of a difference in budgets — and the fact that computer morphing was a technology unknown 30 years ago.

I think we’re going round in circles here, trying to compare artifacts of the special effects and set decoration as a indications of actual differences in STORY CONTINUITY. The budgets were different (TOS had a high budget for prime-time TV, but didn’t have a 20-year “legend” backing up the justification for an even bigger budget), the special effects capabilities were different (make-up always advances in capabilities, computer-controlled cameras were unheard-of, digital morphing wasn’t even a dream yet, and photocompositing of several different images was a “black art” instead of an industry owned by Lucas). Let’s move on.

What about story content? What about “it’s alive, so it has a right to eat us”? What about BORING episodes? (“Look, it’s a giant interstellar mumbo jumbo effect, and the ship is trapped! What can we do? Nothing? But what will happen to us? … Wait, it’s going away. Hoorah, we’re heros!”) What about characters who are supposed to be close friends, but don’t exhibit any caring for each other? (When Troy had a “magic baby” who grew up in a few days and left her, bereft and empty — did Riker say ONE WORD of comfort? When Riker was taken over by the Trill and spent the entire episode wooing Beverly, did Troy show one TWINGE of jealosy? What about Riker? Was he conscious any of the time? The “new style” Trill, Dax, seems to be subordinate to Jazdia’s personality, rather than the reverse. I call that a BIG difference.)

Now, contrast this with B5. Nothing goes away on its own. You have to DO something about it. And I doubt that, whatever the motives of the Shadows might be, that the “army/conspiracy of light” is going to lie back and let it happen because the Shadows “have a right to it.” People who care about each other help each other, or at least sympathize with each other. Consider Garibaldi’s concern over Dr. Franklin’s stim addiction — and what he DOES about it (talks to him, tries to confront him with it, tries to set up a data transfer so he can prove it to him, etc.) What about Sheridan’s sister, providing the excerpt of a taped letter from Sheridan’s wife, so he can begin to DEAL WITH his grief over her loss?

You want to know WHY I think that B5 is a better show? These two paragraphs sum it up pretty well for me. Does anybody else have other thoughts?
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 16:21:52 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Did you get that impression? I certainly didn’t. Did they ever actually say it? (They could well have, for all I remember) I just kind of had the impression that the Bajorans found some relics of theirs and formed a religion out of it. But it’s been a LONG time since I saw the pilot. Did they ever explain how the orbs got to Bajor? Were they sent? Were they lost? I had the vague idea that the wormhole aliens didn’t know or care that they’d been found… in fact this must be the case because the whole concept of “beings like Sisko” was a novelty to them.>>

They told Sisko that he “was of Bajor” Don’t ask me what that means, but they did state in the opening episode that the Orbs were there way of exploring.

<< It’s not that I don’t don’t trust you, Otis… Um, I don’t trust you, Otis. Which episode was this? Again, it could very well be. But was it ever explicitly stated that they WANT to keep the womhole stable or need to? It could just be an unnoticed by-product of some activity of theirs… and we’ve seen no evidence yet that they WOULD reopen it. It doesn’t answer the basic question of why Starfleet hasn’t tried this. Taking Sisko’s word for it that aliens were vaguely connected with the wormhole and might re-open it is a far cry from what I call the “swamp castle” routine on B5 where they kept building Babylon stations until one succeeded.>>

“In the hands of the prophets” or was it “Playing God”. I’m not really up on first season DS9 as much as the latter ones. Starfleet would not be the ones who decide to close the wormhole, it is in Bajorian space, and there is no way they would destroy the “celestial temple”.

<< I really don’t see how collapsing the entrance affects their timeless little dimension uninterested in our petty linear lives. (Heck, if they don’t understand linear time they shouldn’t even notice it gone… but that’s a low blow.)>>

The beings in the wormhole are explorers, and we really don’t know what the mouth of the wormhole being collapsed by an outside force would do to them.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 16:33:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Oh come on – Iman’s kind used virtually the same SPFX as I recall. And it’s silly to argue about those when we’re willing to overlook Klingon makeup (variable even WITHIN TOS). And maybe all Changelings DON’T hate solids. The Founders must have come from somewhere, and their hatred has been culturally explained… distant relatives (and AQ relatives would be VERY distant) might not share it.>>

Iman just blurred, she did not change from liquid and then back to solid. This whole discussion is stupid since they explicitly stated that Odo was the first of his kind found, that implies that he is a diffrent species of shapeshifter. Maybe every changling sent away does not hate solids, but all of the ones in the great link do.

<< “Even if they could”??? Turning Odo to a solid was out of the blue and puts their tech on a par with “Cloaking devices?! These people should be able to make their OWN Wormholes.”>>

They did not use technology in changing Odo, they used the combided power of the great link.

<< Sorry, but that Odo ending really left a bad taste in my mouth, there being absolutely no evidence before this that they could do things like that. It was classic Trek writing – we want to do this, therefore this can be done. Once you’ve established that they can take every gene in an organism and change it utterly, including turning the organism relatively instantaneously into a reflection of those new genes, it should be just as easy to reverse the process. (Of course, we all know Odo’s going to be turned back eventually. It’s just a question of whether the Changelings, Wesley, Q, or Bashir will do it.)>>

You need to watch the show a little more closly, you are missing crucial dialog. In “The Adversary” they said that they duplicate whatever they are imitating down to the genes, and or atomic structure. All they did to Odo was “freeze” him into his humanoid shape. Maybe they took out a special enzyme that allows them to shift? I don’t know how they did it, and at least the writers of DS9 don’t go into five minutes of technobabble to try to explain it (like Voyager).

–AcDec
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 16:36:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But this doesn’t mean that Chang’s (?) was flawed. That explanation seems, as I said, to destroy the brilliance of Spock’s idea and turn it into a real long shot.>>

How is it briallant? Heat-seeking missles do basicly the same thing. You have to look at cloaking devices like presant day stealth technology. As the sensing technology increases, the cloaking tech. also increases, both sides getting an advantage every now and then.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 16:49:27 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<What about story content? What about “it’s alive, so it has a right to eat us”? >>
I guess you are refering to “Silicon Avatear”. They did say it had a right to eat us, just that they understood what is was doing and why. It’s not like they lowered the shields and said “come eat us”.
<< What about BORING episodes? (“Look, it’s a giant interstellar mumbo jumbo effect, and the ship is trapped! What can we do? Nothing? But what will happen to us? … Wait, it’s going away. Hoorah, we’re heros!”)>>

Every show has boring episodes, even B5.

<<What about characters who are supposed to be close friends, but don’t exhibit any caring for each other? (When Troy had a “magic baby” who grew up in a few days and left her, bereft and empty — did Riker say ONE WORD of comfort?>>
I have not seen “The Child” in quite some time, but a writers strike was going on at the time, and so the stories were of a lesser quality. In fact that episode was origanally written for a diffrent TV show.

<< When Riker was taken over by the Trill and spent the entire episode wooing Beverly, did Troy show one TWINGE of jealosy? What about Riker? Was he conscious any of the time? The “new style” Trill, Dax, seems to be subordinate to Jazdia’s personality, rather than the reverse. I call that a BIG difference.)>>

Troi sleeps with other guys all of the time, it’s Riker that usally shows jelousy. Knowing Riker he enjoyed bedding Crusher a lot.
In “The Host” Odon seemed to have a dominance over Riker, Jadzia Dax is 50-50. It has been stated on DS9 that the level of dominance can be out of wack if the host is not chosen carfully, and Riker was an emergency substatution.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 18:08:25 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

<I have not seen “The Child” in quite some time, but a writers strike was going on at the time, and so the stories were of a lesser quality. In fact that episode was origanally written for a diffrent TV show.>

Interesting. Which show?

 

Subj: Oh My
Date: 96-08-04 19:07:00 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

You guys still fighting over this. jeeze I just posted here for the fun of it. I didn’t realize it was serious.

CRC

Subj: Re:Cardassians Everywhere!!
Date: 96-08-04 20:29:41 EDT
From: Yado M
Posted on: America Online

<Jennifer sisko dead twice,
Spock, though he was brought back>

Thats always something I never got about trek. YOU CAN ONLY, BY DEFINITION, DIE ONCE!!!
Death is the absence of life. It can only happen once.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:44:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< (“Look, it’s a giant interstellar mumbo jumbo effect, and the ship is trapped! What can we do? Nothing? But what will happen to us? … Wait, it’s going away. Hoorah, we’re heros!”) >>
LOL! But you forgot the HOW the ship got trapped. “Let’s explore it!”

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:47:32 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<(When Troy had a “magic baby” who grew up in a few days and left her, bereft and empty — did Riker say ONE WORD of comfort?>>
Maybe Riker didn’t buy it… Explains a lot… (Who knows WHY it picked Troi? Maybe she’d already been knocked up… Maybe Riker knew more than we did…)
Did anyone ever get the impression that Troi and Riker were close? I certainly didn’t. Seemed to me more of a “stay out of my way or we might have to think about whether we’re in love” thing. I’ll grant you that was the schizophrenic writers again, who want relationships but don’t want to tie up the characters. (Gee, Dax couldn’t fall for Bashir because then we couldn’t do Planet Brigadoon and the Lesbian thing. And Kira couldn’t fall for Odo because they’re still a few bland, tedious, lobotomized Bajoran men she hasn’t gotten around to yet.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:49:06 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< The “new style” Trill, Dax, seems to be subordinate to Jazdia’s personality, rather than the reverse. I call that a BIG difference.>>
Riker’s trill was from a parallel universe, as a result of a spatial anomoly… a universe where symbiosis is mere parasitism and the Trill hosts (“cattle”, I calls ’em) don’t have spots.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:50:14 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<They told Sisko that he “was of Bajor” Don’t ask me what that means, but they did state in the opening episode that the Orbs were there way of exploring.>>
Man, they changed their tune by the time of the Nagus ep…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:52:21 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The beings in the wormhole are explorers, and we really don’t know what the mouth of the wormhole being collapsed by an outside force would do to them. >>
Fine, we make a deal: “You stop letting ships go through this thing and we’ll keep on defending it against Romulan attempts to close it. Cause you know, timeless guys, if our ships are all blown up by the Dominion, we couldn’t POSSIBLY stop a Romulan attack… No, it’s just a fact…”

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-04 20:53:31 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<They did not use technology in changing Odo, they used the combided power of the great link.>>
O-kay. So what else can this power do?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-05 02:07:38 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Interesting. Which show?>>

The aborted Star Trek:Phase Two (which turned into TMP).
“Devils Due” also came from that show.
–AcDec

 

 

Subj: Re:Cardassians Everywhere!!
Date: 96-08-05 02:09:58 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Thats always something I never got about trek. YOU CAN ONLY, BY DEFINITION, DIE ONCE!!!
Death is the absence of life. It can only happen once.>>

Well, they were two diffrent Jen Sisko’s. (what an unlucky lady)
I guess you can say that spock never really died. The spock that “died” did have a few more memories that the one that came back.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-05 02:12:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Man, they changed their tune by the time of the Nagus ep…>>

I don’t think so, the Nagus just really ticked them off.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-05 02:15:16 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Fine, we make a deal: “You stop letting ships go through this thing and we’ll keep on defending it against Romulan attempts to close it. Cause you know, timeless guys, if our ships are all blown up by the Dominion, we couldn’t POSSIBLY stop a Romulan attack… No, it’s just a fact…”>>

I guess they could try to make a deal, but I doubt that the prophets would go fot it since they don’t really understand death. Or maybe the Dominion are imprtant to the alpha quadrent; they can tell the future afterall.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-05 02:16:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< O-kay. So what else can this power do?>>

I’m not sure, they have not released the Founders Technical Manual yet. :)
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Stories
Date: 96-08-05 02:35:54 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

Thank you.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-05 22:05:10 EDT
From: RedQueen5
Posted on: America Online

<<They did not use technology in changing Odo, they used the combided power of the great link.>>

Oh, well that explains it. That explains everything. Infact, that argument neatly sums up about every defense you’ve (AcDec) established concerning the Star Trek universe. It’s heartening to know, though, that you at least recognize the total absurdity of Voyager.

That’s all I’ve got to say, Mytho has done about as good a job as I could want saying the rest.

Later,
Red

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-06 00:59:05 EDT
From: Kamin15
Posted on: America Online

>>Interesting. Which show?<<

The Star Trek: Phase II series that Paramount orginally planned to use to launch a fourth network in the mid-70s. The idea was dropped and the series’ opening episode evolved into the first ST movie.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-06 09:24:16 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, well that explains it. That explains everything. Infact, that argument neatly sums up about every defense you’ve (AcDec) established concerning the Star Trek universe.>>

Can you please clarify this statrment.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-08 14:47:30 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

Randy: <<Speaking of baddies, I’ve got a couple of questions about Bester. They find a ship of 100 telepaths in cryogenic stasis and pull out one guy, then put him back and pull out Bester’s lover! And to make the cheese more binding, Bester’s speechometer kicks in and he tells Sheridan and Ivanova all about his greatest vulnerability. What’s with that Psi-Cop? Does he…

A) think the B5 folks are just too darn nice to use that info against him?

B) figure he’s gonna kill them all eventually, so the info doesn’t matter?

C) have a quota of lines to fill per episode?

or what?>>

D) or maybe: He needs Sheridan’s help and by exposing his vulnerability he shows he’s willing to trust the B5’ers.

Subj: Re:Cardassians Everywhere!!
Date: 96-08-08 15:16:14 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<I guess you can say that spock never really died. The spock that “died” did have a few more memories that the one that came back.>>

“He was only ‘mostly dead’ Mostly Dead is slightly alive. If someone is all dead there’s only one thing you can do. Go through his pockets and look for loose change.”

Subj: Re:Bester
Date: 96-08-08 16:52:00 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Gee, I hope the answers are A & B. A because he thinks all mundanes are stupid. And B because it’s consistent with his character. Unless he truly believes that the group starting on B5 will be the only ones left standing at the end….And then that doesn’t rule out B.

JVibber, you’re absolutely right about B5. And Mytho, LOL.

Sherry

Subj: non-comms
Date: 96-08-08 19:36:08 EDT
From: Yado M
Posted on: America Online

Someone said about O’brien “He’s a non-comm, they don’t follow the same ranking system.” Thats not true. Colin Powell enlisted, and worked his way up to a general. Along the way, he held the same ranks as people who started as commisioned officers. This is a very efficant system, so why would they change it in the future?
(I’m not a military person so I could be wrong.)

Subj: Re:Wanted: Story Editors…
Date: 96-08-09 11:08:04 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>D) or maybe: He needs Sheridan’s help and by exposing his vulnerability he shows he’s willing to trust the B5’ers.<<

Well, that sure sounds good, but considering Bester’s past behavior, I still think it’s a cross between A and B.

Randy

Subj: Re: O’Brien
Date: 96-08-09 16:23:23 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

Yado:

He STARTED the series a Lieutenant and has become an NCO over the course of the series. That doesn’t happen in today’s military unless you get busted down in rank. Trek did it when they decided to move him over to DS9.

Subj: Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-09 16:23:29 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

Randy Hall:

And I still maintain, what the hell are they going to do with that information? In what possible way can they use the fact that he loves this woman against him? Hold her hostage? Threaten to kill her? I doubt it. You dodged this question last time, let’s see you do it again.

Subj: Re: O’Brien
Date: 96-08-09 21:05:49 EDT
From: Cyradis1
Posted on: America Online

<<He STARTED the series a Lieutenant and has become an NCO over the course of the series. That doesn’t happen in today’s military unless you get busted down in rank. Trek did it when they decided to move him over to DS9.>>

He wasa chief on Star Trek Next Generation, remember

Don’t call me sir, I work for a living.

Subj: Re: O’Brien
Date: 96-08-09 21:39:57 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<He wasa chief on Star Trek Next Generation, remember>>

Actually O’Brian has been around, first he was the Battle-bridge helm officer, then he was in security, and them finally he was chief transporter officer. The first time he was refered to as a non-com was in “Family”. It was not untill DS9’s past season that his rank insignia was nailed down.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re: O’Brien
Date: 96-08-10 13:24:46 EDT
From: Dr Nambu
Posted on: America Online

OK, just to jump in, has anyone brought up the rank pip issue? he*was* an officer, up until like the 6th season of TNG, or so…

And suddenly, in DS9, he has a totally new type of rank pip, and the whole non-comm thing comes to the fore….

You know, I’ve *never* seen a rank pip like that, before or since….

Just my thoughts..

Nambu

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-10 14:15:21 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>Randy Hall:

And I still maintain, what the hell are they going to do with that information? In what possible way can they use the fact that he loves this woman against him? Hold her hostage? Threaten to kill her? I doubt it. You dodged this question last time, let’s see you do it again.<<

This line of reasoning goes to the idea that they’re just too nice to do anything against him. If they’re going to ally themselves with someone like Bester, they’d better be ready in case he decides in the middle of things that being on their side isn’t in his best interest anymore. And yeah, that means using the information about the woman against him. The fact that he spilled his guts on the woman to them in fhe first place doesn’t fit with what we know of Bester’s character, IMHO. As Ivanova said, he’s only on their side temporarily, which is why I think he figures that he’ll kill them all when they’ve served his purpose. Still, it would be interesting if he was lying all along just to gain their sympathy…..

As to how they use the information, they could always let the Psi-Corps know about Bester’s bending of the rules for the woman. I’m sure they’d be interested to hear about it. Or they could threaten to withhold treatment unless he goes along with them. But then, they’re just too darn nice for that! Which is what I mean when I say it comes down to a combination of their niceness and his nastiness.

Randy
Subj: Re: O’Brien
Date: 96-08-10 18:36:50 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>He was a chief on Star Trek Next Generation, remember<<

Yeah, AFTER it was established he was an LT.

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-10 18:37:47 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>> Or they could threaten to withhold treatment unless he goes along with them. But then, they’re just too darn nice for that! Which is what I mean when I say it comes down to a combination of their niceness and his nastiness.<<

I still don’t get your point on this. Of course they are not going to withold treatment, they are the GOOD guys. There are some things they won’t stoop to doing, and inflicting harm on the innocent is on of them. As for Bester’s actions being out of character, I don’t agree, we really don’t know him that well to start with and this was an issue that rocked him to his core. In any event, if this is the best example of B5’s inconsistencies or faults that you could come up with, I think that says a lot in itself.

Subj: I have to say this…
Date: 96-08-10 22:12:05 EDT
From: LtjgSkully
Posted on: America Online

I like Babylon 5 but… DS9 IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better. I sya the DEFIANT could whip the WHITESTAR into oblivion. DS9 is superior!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subj: Re:I have to say this…
Date: 96-08-11 17:03:06 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

I think the previous post speaks for itself…
Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 15:02:01 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>I still don’t get your point on this. Of course they are not going to withold treatment, they are the GOOD guys.<<
Exactly my point. They’re too nice for Bester to worry about them using this against him.

>>As for Bester’s actions being out of character, I don’t agree, we really don’t know him that well to start with and this was an issue that rocked him to his core.<<
All the more reason to keep this to himself instead of giving it to people he has tangled with before and might very well tangle with again. Let me ask you a question, then. What kind of preparations should Sheridan, etc., make in case Bester turns against them? None? Wouldn’t that be naive?

>>In any event, if this is the best example of B5’s inconsistencies or faults that you could come up with, I think that says a lot in itself.<<
It says we’re taking this one item at a time. As long as we’re looking for new questions, clear up something else for me. When Sinclair went back in time and became Valen, where did he get the two Vorlons who were floating above him when he was introduced to the Minbari? Were they hitch-hiking in time? Or is this another point that we have to wait until the end of the five-year arc to learn?

Randy

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 15:36:03 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Let me ask you a question, then. What kind of preparations should Sheridan, etc., make in case Bester turns against them? None? Wouldn’t that be naive?<<

Unlike other B5 fans, I think they should use his “girlfriend” as a hostage if he goes berserk against them. Why wouldn’t they? The “They’re just GOOD guys” arguement is pathetic in B5’s universe. Wasn’t Sheridan the one who illegally detained Morden because he was upset about losing Anna (however temporarily…?)? I could see him doing the same to Bester, easily.

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 19:55:32 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>>Unlike other B5 fans, I think they should use his “girlfriend” as a hostage if he goes berserk against them. Why wouldn’t they? The “They’re just GOOD guys” arguement is pathetic in B5’s universe. Wasn’t Sheridan the one who illegally detained Morden because he was upset about losing Anna (however temporarily…?)? I could see him doing the same to Bester, easily.<<

Hold on a sec-I would be all for using her as leverage. But that’s because I am pretty amoral, Sheridan isn’t. Sure he illegally detained Morden, but he was blinded by rage over Anna, I don’t think he would act similarily if/when Bester betrays them. Sheridan is smart enough to prepare something else in advance.

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 20:31:04 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>>Exactly my point. They’re too nice for Bester to worry about them using this against him.<<

I thought you were trying to point out some inconsistency in B5’s storyline. You stated, in essence, why would Bester tell them his feelings for the woman? You answered your own question above!

>>All the more reason to keep this to himself instead of giving it to people he has tangled with before and might very well tangle with again. Let me ask you a question, then. What kind of preparations should Sheridan, etc., make in case Bester turns against them? None? Wouldn’t that be naive?<<

Of course Sheridan and Co. are not going into any “partnership” with Bester without some back-up plan in case/when he turns on them, they discussed as much in “Ship of Tears”. Where the hell were you?

>>It says we’re taking this one item at a time. As long as we’re looking for new questions, clear up something else for me. When Sinclair went back in time and became Valen, where did he get the two Vorlons who were floating above him when he was introduced to the Minbari? Were they hitch-hiking in time? Or is this another point that we have to wait until the end of the five-year arc to learn?<<

What?!? You are worried about where the two vorlons came from at the end of WWE? This is the best you can do? They obviously joined Valen AFTER he arrived. You are really grasping at straws
O-we-can’t-beam-through-our-shields-but-we-do-all-the-time-anyway boy. Heh heh heh.

 

Subj: Re:Valenn and the Vorlons
Date: 96-08-12 21:35:41 EDT
From: MegaUser
Posted on: America Online

[sounds like the name of a music group]

When the Minbari ship(s) arrive at B4, you can see the 2 Vorlon ships also there. The Vorlons did NOT appear out of thin air…

And just as a pre-emptive strike, I’ll answer the other likely (and related) question:

According to JMS, the Triluminary thing that changed both Valenn and Delenn came from Epsilon 3–Zathras brought it with him along with the other equipment. He gave it to Sinclair, who used it, and it was kept by the Minbari for the thousand years until Delenn used it. The question of its origin is basically the same as the question of the origin of The Great Machine on Epsilon 3–still unanswered, but so far completely consistent.

–Seth

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 23:23:07 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<When Sinclair went back in time and became Valen, where did he get the two Vorlons who were floating above him when he was introduced to the Minbari? Were they hitch-hiking in time? Or is this another point that we have to wait until the end of the five-year arc to learn?>>
How is this a fault or inconsistency? Especially given how secretive and nosy and control-freaky the Vorlons are. I just assumed that they saw the thing materialize and got there first. I don’t think they knew anything about the future events (Sinclair may have filled them in a bit), and Sinclair undoubtedly kept them in the dark about some things (makes a gleeful turn, does it not?) – like how when one finally extended the hand of friendship to a man he thought he could trust, he’d end up poisoned.
Honestly! There ARE much better examples of inconsistencies in War Without End, but I’m certainly not going to help you…

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-12 23:25:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<O-we-can’t-beam-through-our-shields-but-we-do-all-the-time-anyway>>
Nice. I finally caught an explicit example of this in the Scotty episode… I was wondering, on rewatch, how they were going to time that one – lower shields, beam out, blow up ship… and lo and behold they beamed right through em!
Old shields?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-12 23:35:05 EDT
From: RedQueen5
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, well that explains it. That explains everything. Infact, that argument neatly sums up about every defense you’ve (AcDec) established concerning the Star Trek universe.>>

Can you please clarify this statrment.
–AcDec>>

Yeah, go back and read your last two hundred or so responses.

Red

ps. You can’t be for real?!?

Subj: Re:Valenn and the Vorlons
Date: 96-08-12 23:57:54 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

<< How is this a fault or inconsistency? Especially given how secretive and nosy and control-freaky the Vorlons are. I just assumed that they saw the thing materialize and got there first. I don’t think they knew anything about the future events (Sinclair may have filled them in a bit)>>

Perhaps I’m the only one this has occurred to, but doesn’t it appear as though the Vorlons perceive time differently than we do? Perhaps they can communicate backwards in time with the with the same ease (if not the same methods) that Valen/Sinclair does.

This was much clearer, as a concept, in my head than I can put it on screen.

Al

Subj: Long live the Queen…
Date: 96-08-14 03:04:05 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

I like your style RedQueen5.

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-14 14:57:20 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

Glad to see Songokuten and I are on the same line of thought on the Bester thing even if NecRon 01 doesn’t agree.

>>I thought you were trying to point out some inconsistency in B5’s storyline. You stated, in essence, why would Bester tell them his feelings for the woman? You answered your own question above!<<
I was hoping this would already have been explained in the show. If you folks need me to provide answers for these puzzles, that’s a problem with the show.

>>Of course Sheridan and Co. are not going into any “partnership” with Bester without some back-up plan in case/when he turns on them, they discussed as much in “Ship of Tears”. Where the hell were you?<<
Watching the show. So what did I miss? What plan or plans did Sheridan and company come up with?

>>What?!? You are worried about where the two vorlons came from at the end of WWE? This is the best you can do?<<
It’s certainly more significant than O’Brien’s pips.

>>They obviously joined Valen AFTER he arrived.<<
Really? How? Why? I’m waiting to find out how they got there!

Randy

Subj: Re:Valenn and the Vorlons
Date: 96-08-14 15:01:02 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>When the Minbari ship(s) arrive at B4, you can see the 2 Vorlon ships also there. The Vorlons did NOT appear out of thin air…<<
Glad to hear it. Now how did they know to be there when Sinclair and B4 arrived or just after?

>>According to JMS, the Triluminary thing that changed both Valenn and Delenn came from Epsilon 3–Zathras brought it with him along with the other equipment. He gave it to Sinclair, who used it, and it was kept by the Minbari for the thousand years until Delenn used it. The question of its origin is basically the same as the question of the origin of The Great Machine on Epsilon 3–still unanswered, but so far completely consistent.<<
More consistent than I’d like. I’ve always wondered why Delenn went into the chrysalis at the end of the first season and came out with hair. Then we saw in the two-parter that Sinclair went into the chrysalis 1,000 years earlier and came out without hair. So his hair was waiting when Delenn came along. Man, this triple-encrypted thing is so detailed!

Randy

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-14 15:02:53 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>><<When Sinclair went back in time and became Valen, where did he get the two Vorlons who were floating above him when he was introduced to the Minbari? Were they hitch-hiking in time? Or is this another point that we have to wait until the end of the five-year arc to learn?>>
How is this a fault or inconsistency? Especially given how secretive and nosy and control-freaky the Vorlons are. I just assumed that they saw the thing materialize and got there first.<<
So assuming is a valid way to deal with B5 when something doesn’t add up. I’ll keep that in mind next time something in Trek doesn’t add up.

Randy

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-14 15:03:51 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>><<O-we-can’t-beam-through-our-shields-but-we-do-all-the-time-anyway>>
Nice. I finally caught an explicit example of this in the Scotty episode… I was wondering, on rewatch, how they were going to time that one – lower shields, beam out, blow up ship… and lo and behold they beamed right through em!
Old shields?<<
The ship was 80 years old and not a warship, after all…..

Randy

Subj: Re:Valenn and the Vorlons
Date: 96-08-14 22:22:31 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

The Vorlons were involved in the last war as well. Sinclair knew that. So when he arrived back in time and was ready, it seems pretty obvious to me that he “invited” them to come to the station. Or, if they’re as immense a power as they seem, they picked up the temporal rift forming and came along to check it out. Why in the world is their showing up an inconsistency? Just because we’re not shown the scene where they came on board the station before the Minbari? JMS talks in Lurker’s Guide about how much had to be shown in just two eps and how he couldn’t include scenes between characters that he would have loved to have shown. Why waste time on Sinclair/Valen summoning the Vorlons?

Sherry

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-15 15:04:04 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Glad to see Songokuten and I are on the same line of thought on the Bester thing even if NecRon 01 doesn’t agree.<<

Well I don’t see it as a huge problem; I just think that it’s meant to be inferred.

>>I thought you were trying to point out some inconsistency in B5’s storyline. You stated, in essence, why would Bester tell them his feelings for the woman? You answered your own question above!<<
I was hoping this would already have been explained in the show. If you folks need me to provide answers for these puzzles, that’s a problem with the show.<<

Not really. They’re not necessary to explain if you know the character (usually) or else it’s part of the mystery. I don’t see anyone spending any time discussing how the Shadows’ motives were not explained yet. It’s just a mystery right now, so we know that waiting or speculation are our only choices when it comes to discussion of the Shadows’ motives. While sometimes that can hurt the show, most of the time some good suspense is needed.

>>Of course Sheridan and Co. are not going into any “partnership” with Bester without some back-up plan in case/when he turns on them, they discussed as much in “Ship of Tears”. Where the hell were you?<<
Watching the show. So what did I miss? What plan or plans did Sheridan and company come up with?<<

I think the best they did was “Be ready”…

>>What?!? You are worried about where the two vorlons came from at the end of WWE? This is the best you can do?<<
It’s certainly more significant than O’Brien’s pips.
>>They obviously joined Valen AFTER he arrived.<<
Really? How? Why? I’m waiting to find out how they got there!<<

In the scene at the end of WWE2, you can see 2 Vorlon ships drifting next to the station (B4). Since the Vorlons are Kosh and Kosh (2), it seems reasonable to think that these are younger versions of the two Vorlons we’ll be seeing (have seen?) later.

Subj: Re:Valenn and the Vorlons
Date: 96-08-15 15:15:57 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>>>According to JMS, the Triluminary thing that changed both Valenn and Delenn came from Epsilon 3–Zathras brought it with him along with the other equipment. He gave it to Sinclair, who used it, and it was kept by the Minbari for the thousand years until Delenn used it. The question of its origin is basically the same as the question of the origin of The Great Machine on Epsilon 3–still unanswered, but so far completely consistent.<<
More consistent than I’d like. I’ve always wondered why Delenn went into the chrysalis at the end of the first season and came out with hair. Then we saw in the two-parter that Sinclair went into the chrysalis 1,000 years earlier and came out without hair. So his hair was waiting when Delenn came along. Man, this triple-encrypted thing is so detailed!<<

Sounds like Deleen could make quite a fortune with that device. The Minbari hair club.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:13:45 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>”Resistance is Futile” does not sound overconfident to you?
The Borg think that they are the ultimte form of life (BOBW), they don’t see individuals as a threat.<<

Until they got their butt whipped by a few individuals. So, either they keep their attitude that individuals don’t count and so do NOT adapt to new situations, or they DO adapt to new situations and so must now count individuals as a threat. To leave such a glaring inconsistency in plot and story development is BY DEFINITION poor writing. You try this with an English professor and you’ll get flunked.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:16:25 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>How do you know it was on a salvage mission?<<

sorry, my mistake, I don’t it was never made clear in the story.

>>Most invading parties do send out scouts.<<

Now who’s making assumptions?

>>The Borg probaly re-bult their ship to match their new-found individuality (notice the design w/ one “arm” longer that the other, just like the Borg).<<

You’re getting your episodes mixed. It was a standard BORG ship that cane for Hugh.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:17:49 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>When Hugh returned w/ his since of individuality, it immidiatly infected his entire ship, and they therefore cut themselves off from the collective. The crew would not know what happened with the rest of the collective, they were not part of it. We do know however that it did NOT effect the whole collective but only one ship. This is consistant with BOBW.<<

Borg can’t cut themselves off from the collective, witness Borg’s reaction to Picard when captured by Enterprise crew and Crusher’s pointing out the same. How you gonna plug this plot hole?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:20:08 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Yes, it was a crappy treaty, that is why so many starfleet peole have sided w/ the Maquis.
What? Government beurocrats screw up? What a concept.<<

Its not treated that way by any of the main Trek characters. Federation thinks this is a great treaty and the Maki are criminals. A couple of treaties like this and you cease to exist as a sovereign state. Thus my original point on the Federation’s viability in a reality-based story.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:21:04 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Too late now, the changlings are already through the wormhole.<<

Not the point. Any idiot would have thought of this the moment the wormhole was discovered and traffic started passing through it, if for nothing more than to catch smugglers.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:23:36 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> In all fairness, the Borg, being (so we’re told) a fundamentally adaptive enemy, probably did something about that “capture one of us becomes a liability” thing by addressing the “cut off from the collective” problem.
They probably also did away with that “let’s blow up whenever we go to sleep” strategy too.<<

Probably, but the fact we’re speculating about it means the writing was bad. You need to elaborate an essential plot point like that. English professor flunks Trek writer.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:25:56 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> My original impression of the Borg (before the tinkering began) was that there were probably many “cubes” spread out across the galaxy or galaxies. All connected by the “collective”, perhaps, but there’s probably a limit to how far that “instantaneous” communication will reach. I had the idea of a situation where the cubes finally come within range of one another eventually and download all info since parting, eventually acting like a giant information network.
So, really, I was more surprised that Hugh and the “new” Borg had HEARD of Picard, etc. at all rather than not knowing Locutus was destroyed. I suppose the Borg could have sent out a standard update transmission (not instantly received) before Picard’s recapture by Riker.<<

Then you have individual identity built into the borg collective. How much more aware of your leg do you become when it has fallen asleep? It becomes a distinct presence to your body. A disparate collective that was not instantly aware of all its components, would at the very least have a rough concept of individual identity and autonomy and would therefore be immune to Hugh’s individuality.

Subj: Re: The Treks
Date: 96-08-16 02:28:01 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The later Treks have always shown signs of brilliance when tackling ideas rather than relying of action plots, which is where most of the holes seem to show up.<<

An idea without a good story to tell it is worthless

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:29:29 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>And exactly what is so bad about this “plot device”. It is rather hard to respond to generalities.<<

Believability.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:30:38 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The head of the Earth Government would be like a governer in the US, In a “national” emergency the President would be calling the shots. And maybe Earths governer was one of those people standing around w/ the Pres.<<

Another brilliant assumption to fill a massive plot hole. I must give you credit, your rationalizations are quite good and fill these plot holes nicely. Too bad you can’t tell the Trek writers to actually put some of them in their stories!

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:33:41 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Cloaks can bend light around themselves, they should not have much trouble getting around that test. What they should do is set up a detection grid like the one in “Redemption”. The reason this was not done is the Dominion has no cloak tech. Also, I am not sure cloaked ships can go through the wormhole; the fleet in “Improbable Cause” had to de-cloak to get through.<<

You been watching Trek too long. Lost your basic physics knowledge. Light is fundamentally a wave phenomena and nuclear particles are inherently well, particle-like. A technology that would bend light would probably have no effect whatsoever on physical particles. Witness TOS episode Balance of Terror where the cloaked ship would leave a visible trail in a comet’s tail.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:34:33 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>That is like saying a Texan would not have somone from California being their President.<<

No, its like saying, no American would have Buttros Buttros Gali dictating US domestic policy.

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-16 02:35:40 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>No one has mentioned this and I have always wondered why Hugh didn’t die when he seperated from the collective. At the very least he should have gone stark-raving, mad. When Troi lost her sense of empathy, she was close to becoming a basket case. In Hugh’s case, his loss was much deeper and profound. All his life, he had all the thoughts of all of his people in his mind. The concept of loneliness was completely alien to him. Can you imagine how devestating his seperation must have have been? The despair alone should have killed him, but no, Picard gives a speech, he is convinced Fed culture is superior and everyone goes their merry way.

Reminds me of a song:

My name is Hugh ooo ooo,
I want to be like you ooo ooo.
I want to talk like you,
Think like you, too ooo ooo.

You see it’s true ooo ooo,
a Borg like me eee eee.
Can learn to be, Federation too ooo ooo.

Don<<

Wow! This is such a fundamental plot flaw, that I couldn’t open my eyes wide enough to see it. Thanks.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:38:15 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> Also, you have to bear in mind that it’s a lot harder to “grid” something the size of a wormhole than it is to “grid” an instellar border that stretches for hundreds of light years in all directions. (Sorry, that grid made no sense. “Why don’t we just cross into Ferengi or Cardassian space? We ARE cloaked.” “Oh, that wouldn’t be sporting – let’s just go home.” And please do NOT use the word “time” in your refutation – Trek hasn’t earned the priviledge by any consistency on the subject of distances and time.)<<

Tell me about it. I kept thinking, why don’t they just go OVER the d—- thing, space is three-dimensional after all.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:41:26 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

Feringi and Cardassian space is on the oppisaste side of the Quadrent. The would have to do a >>run through Federation space, and the Feds have stations that can pick up a large number of cloaks. “Face of the Enemy”
I will be the first to admit that Trek is totally inconsistant on the speed of their ships. However, the Romulans needed to really hurry because the final battle had already began. The Romulans however could not interfere at all after being discovered, it could have provoked a war w/ the Feds.<<

Sorry, the basic premise is flawed. Romulan ships can warp undetected when cloaked. The Federation ships were in a grid a few thousand kilometers across. Warp two light years away undetected, cross the border and head on in. At most you lose an hour. Better late than never.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-16 02:43:13 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The changlings would be shielded by the ship they are in from anything sprayed. They use legitamite alpha quad ships that they stow away on. They probaly should have launched a torpedo set to explode if front of the wormhole every time it opened. An unshielded ship would be toast. Agian, they did not think they were cloaked ships untill what happened on Earth.<<

I know its a pretty far out idea, but how about requiring ships to pass through customs including a search scan, and tag of items in the vessel? Mmm?

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 02:45:57 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>To a member of the Federation, the diffrence is the same as bewteen states. You should really hate Babylon five too on thoose grounds, a human (sheridan) is leading a force of many races. Heck, he is in love with someone of a diffrent species!!.<<

You’re really starting to lose credibility here. Either that or you’re clutching straws. Pay attention to what you wrote. Sheridan is LEADING a force of many races. No human would have a problem with that.

Secondly, if Trek does develop the attitude that its just like different states, then they are totally unbased in reality. Many humans would never settle for that and who knows about the psychology of alien races. Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. Trek aliens are just humans in funny suits, that’s right.

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-16 12:27:40 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

>>What?!? You are worried about where the two vorlons came from at the end of WWE? This is the best you can do?<<
It’s certainly more significant than O’Brien’s pips.

>>They obviously joined Valen AFTER he arrived.<<
Really? How? Why? I’m waiting to find out how they got there!>>

MY guess would be that they arrived in the two Vorlon ships rather conspicuously parked on either side of the station, took a shuttle into the station, walked, flew, whatever to whatever room Valen was in, said hi, hung around to look impressive when the Minbari showed up. This isn’t rocket science. It’s already been establiched that the Vorlons have some kind of prescience, so that’s how they knew that they aught to be there.

 

Subj: Genghis MatterWave
Date: 96-08-16 17:13:28 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

MatterWave-
You’re a wave alright, kind of like a certain Mongolian wave…

Paraphrasing:
Q: “What is best in life?”
A: “To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations on their women.”

AcDec- is that your significant other I hear?

>>Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. Trek aliens are just humans in funny suits, that’s right.<<
Wrong! Don’t forget the “nose-prothsetic”…

Subj: Editors? We dont need no…
Date: 96-08-16 17:20:34 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>>What?!? You are worried about where the two vorlons came from at the end of WWE? This is the best you can do?<<
It’s certainly more significant than O’Brien’s pips.

Not even close. O’Brien’s rank change is an unexplained CHANGE IN PREMISE, you know, an already established FACT that is changed to advance a storyline(here kitty kitty), or more likely, the writer didn’t even research his damn rank(which really wouldn’t be a problem if ST’s story editors were not just collecting paychecks for doing nothing). Your Vorlon example is just unexplained (but inferred by the two Vorlon ships outside B4) minutae.

Subj: Re: Vorlons with Valen
Date: 96-08-16 17:32:48 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

. <<Your Vorlon example is just unexplained (but inferred by the two Vorlon ships outside B4) minutae.>>

Remember, so far everything that was “unexplained” or “inconsistent” in B5 has eventually been explained.

Perhaps I’m the only one this has occurred to, but doesn’t it appear as though the Vorlons perceive time differently than we do? Perhaps they can communicate backwards in time with the with the same ease (if not the same methods) that Valen/Sinclair does.

(This was much clearer, as a concept, in my head than I can put it on screen.)

Al

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-16 18:07:23 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Probably, but the fact we’re speculating about it means the writing was bad. You need to elaborate an essential plot point like that. English professor flunks Trek writer.>>

On the whole, I agree with this sentiment. But just for the sake of a few pigheaded people who refuse to see a distinction here (we all know who we mean), I’d like to differentiate between two similar writing tools, one very intelligent and complimentary, and the other highly insulting. It is possible not to tell the viewer/reader everything, leave him things to piece together himself. Done properly, it can be a most rewarding technique, because without speaking for anyone else, I for one am tired of shows that treat me like an idiot. Most of the so-called “see, you B5 viewers have to seal up these plot holes too, nya nya!” seem to me to fall into this category.
This is, however, a far cry from what Trek ususally does, where anyone who’s ever written anything in his life can see that they simply couldn’t be bothered, couldn’t remember, didn’t care what came before – whether continuity of events or continuity (don’t try to laugh too loud) of what’s scientifically possible. The HUGE distinction here seems to be whether the writer was leaving you to figure out what he didn’t have space to make explicit, and fans rushing in to correct things that writers simply couldn’t be bothered to consider in the first place.
A good example of the latter is (and to be fair, I’ll use a episode that actually had some good moral ambiguity in it, a trace of good writing for once) “Tuvix.” How does the Trek writing process typically work? “We want to do an episode where…” Fine, now make it happen. Has ANY Trek idea starting like EVER been shelved because someone at some point of the creative process said, “Real science, even OUR science, doesn’t work that way. It can’t be done believably within the confines of what we’ve established”? I think not, my friends.
(The character inconsistencies of “Tuvix” are another issue altogether. I for one am tempted to say, at least, that Picard would never have acted as Janeway acted. But in my heart of hearts, I know that if they’d thought to do that kind of ep in Trek’s last season – “Daker!” – they wouldn’t have been stopped, and Picard’s decision would’ve fallen into line the way the writers wanted him to act.)

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-16 18:12:15 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Picard gives a speech, he is convinced Fed culture is superior and everyone goes their merry way.>>

Hey, it worked on Mark Twain, didn’t it? In blatant defiance of his very cynical later writings. (Kinda like H.G. Wells still being a socialist after what he learned in “Time After Time.”)

Subj: Re:Genghis MatterWave
Date: 96-08-16 18:18:51 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< Wrong! Don’t forget the “nose-prothsetic”…>>

I can see it now: the flat-faced aliens at the dawn of time (not to be confused with the Presevers, the globe-people led by Sargon, and all those other really neat aliens who spread humanoid life across the galaxy), while they were creating all the other humanoid races, said, “You know what we’re missing? You know what would look really neat? Let’s make their smelling-organs all big protuberances and embellish them in different ways.” Slartibartfast the flat-faced alien wins an award for the Bajorans – all those lovely, crinkly edges…

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-16 21:36:32 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

Matter Wave,

I have read your previous posts.

I like the way you think, my friend!! Keep up the good work.

-bill

Subj: Trek Inconsistencies Abound!
Date: 96-08-16 21:47:06 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

Lets look at a few, shall we? (and I won’t even bring up OBrien’s rank)

1. Data’s cat seems to change gender at will.
2. The first Trill (from TNG) looks nothing like the later Trills. The writers hoped that “noone would notice” and that they changed the look because “we had to decide what looked best on the actress (Terry Farrelll)”
3. OBrien’s daughter magically aged a few years (so that she could get some lines in)
4. Scotty didn’t seem to remember that Kirk died. The writers, again, “hoped noone would notice”
5. The Borg can’t seem to figure out whether they are a collective or individuals. Now they are a bunch of bees with a queen (who is an individual) (wha??)

-bill

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-17 02:59:21 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Necron,

The minute detail of whether O’brien pips are what they should be is just a bit much don’t you think? What is the big deal anyway? The character was never that big a deal on TNG so no one cares what his rank is, So when they decided to move him over to DS9 they just changed or rewrote or just made his history and his rank a little clearer that’s all. This crap about the writers not researching the character is just plain bull, These people are running a business here and they are all profesionals who know what their doing. The fact that O’brien has two pips on his collar or one or none is really not that important unless your really looking for dirt on Star Trek, So you can can continue to whine about how bad it is. Please spare me, This isn’t bad writing at all it’s just a bit of reworking on a character who fit into his role well on TNG but needed a different designation on DS9. If you want to talk about bad writing how about that esp of B5 where EarthGov fighters fire on not only Mars colony but on B5 as well on the orders of a President where evidence existed that he was involved in the plot to kill the last President. Just having that tape, which was said to be tamper proof shown the way it was, Should at least have convinced those fighters that they were being used for the personel goals of a corrupt President Clark. Star Trek Captains would NEVER fire on their own people EVER, Unless they were damn sure it had to be done and that the orders weren’t coming from a corrupt mouthpiece of the Federation. Trek Captains are alot brighter and have a little more common sense then the idiots fighters and Captains we have seen on B5. Talk about changed premise, I’d smarten up those idiots in EarthGov before they destroy everything. With a EarthGov like this who needs the Shadows?

JJC III

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-17 17:19:57 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

Alas! our mutual friend STAR has shown us more than even he desired. How sad it is to see a man walking alone down a dark alley, a sack of gold in hand, with no idea of the danger he is in!
Even the most cursory review of human history is replete with individuals who were “just following orders”, the bombing of the Mars colonies is no more unusual, or suprising an act for the fighter pilots, than Tiananmen square was for the Chinese tank crews, the Japanese biological weapons tests in China, the cleansing if Bosnia, the wholesale murder of civilians by the German army in WWII, the sacking and pillaging of both Jerusalem and Carthage by the Romans, The extermination of the Native Americans by the US military in the 19th century, the forced relocations of both the Tartars and Chechens by Stalin’s underlings, and the list goes on and on. Just knowing that your commanders are wrong does not automatically give one the courage (which you as a citizen of this great empire have probably never had to display) to refuse thier wishes, even though it would be the end of you and your family. ST defenders are to a man persons wholly convinced of their moral rectitude and certitude, but have never faced a really hard decision of ethics, as are all ST captains “We never shoot first, our shields can always absorb the first strike from any enemy, we are superior! It is right that Greeks (i.e. feds) should rule”

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:13:48 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Yeah, go back and read your last two hundred or so responses.

Red

ps. You can’t be for real?!? >>

I find that is a common tactic for some people to say they have made a point, but then never clarify what that point is. Why don’t you just come out and state your point instead of hiding behind Kosh-like statements. You might want to run for public office, you already show the “skill” of avoiding answering direct questons.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:17:56 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Until they got their butt whipped by a few individuals. So, either they keep their attitude that individuals don’t count and so do NOT adapt to new situations, or they DO adapt to new situations and so must now count individuals as a threat. To leave such a glaring inconsistency in plot and story development is BY DEFINITION poor writing. You try this with an English professor and you’ll get flunked.>>

But TPTB are not done with the Borg yet, In the new movie they may have delt with this problem, we will have to wait and see.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:21:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Now who’s making assumptions?>>
Maybe because they were called scout ships in the show.

<<You’re getting your episodes mixed. It was a standard BORG ship that cane for Hugh.>>

Maybe it is you who are confused. Hugh was picked up by a small Borg scout cube, that cube then rendevous with a larger Borg cube. The “individuality infection” spreads and the Borg then restucture their ship to reflect their individuality.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:27:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Borg can’t cut themselves off from the collective, witness Borg’s reaction to Picard when captured by Enterprise crew and Crusher’s pointing out the same. How you gonna plug this plot hole?>>

A single Borg ship is a collective among itself. They use subspace communications that are very fast but not instant (BOBW). Therefore only Borg close enough to have almost instantanious communication can form a complete collective. Any farther apart and a consiousness would be to slow to be effective. This explains why all Borg ships in the universe did not self-destruct during BOBW, and also why Hughs individuality only affected one mothership.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:30:13 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Its not treated that way by any of the main Trek characters. Federation thinks this is a great treaty and the Maki are criminals. A couple of treaties like this and you cease to exist as a sovereign state. Thus my original point on the Federation’s viability in a reality-based story.>>

Ro turned over to the Maquis and O’Brian is somewhat of a sympathiser. And that stupid treaty is causing a great deal of havok in the Federation. (we will see more this coming season).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:32:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Not the point. Any idiot would have thought of this the moment the wormhole was discovered and traffic started passing through it, if for nothing more than to catch smugglers.>>

But we still don’t know if a cloaked ship can even pass through the wormhole. Also, the Bajorian government is in charge of it, and they have more pressing problems than smuggling.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:34:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Probably, but the fact we’re speculating about it means the writing was bad. You need to elaborate an essential plot point like that. English professor flunks Trek writer.>>

We have not seen the last of the Borg yet, they will probaly address some of these “issues”. Also remeber that they only have 45 minutes to tell a story they can’t explain EVERYTHING, thats why I’m here.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:37:33 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Then you have individual identity built into the borg collective. How much more aware of your leg do you become when it has fallen asleep? It becomes a distinct presence to your body. A disparate collective that was not instantly aware of all its components, would at the very least have a rough concept of individual identity and autonomy and would therefore be immune to Hugh’s individuality.>>

The Borg have not yet had a case of a member of the collective leaving and then coming back, that was an unknown to them and they probaly did not plan for it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:38:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Believability.>>

Another generality. Can you give specifics, or are you really Kosh?
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:41:44 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Another brilliant assumption to fill a massive plot hole. I must give you credit, your rationalizations are quite good and fill these plot holes nicely. Too bad you can’t tell the Trek writers to actually put some of them in their stories!>>

By calling the Federation a federation, they therfore tell us the basic layout of the government (hint: a federal government). An invasion by a forgien power would be handled by the top power ie. the Presidant of the Federation. I did not know that the writers need to explain what a federation is.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:47:39 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You been watching Trek too long. Lost your basic physics knowledge. Light is fundamentally a wave phenomena and nuclear particles are inherently well, particle-like. A technology that would bend light would probably have no effect whatsoever on physical particles. Witness TOS episode Balance of Terror where the cloaked ship would leave a visible trail in a comet’s tail.>>

That cloak in “Balance of Terror” was primative compared to the Cloaks of the 24th century (the ships motion could be picked up back then). The ships in TNG could somehow mask all particle emmisions, and I see no reason why they could not do it with incoming particles.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 21:50:22 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<No, its like saying, no American would have Buttros Buttros Gali dictating US domestic policy.>>

But Gali is not a citizan of the US. The President of the Federation is a citizan of the Federation of which Earth is a part. And as I have said before, in a federal government, forgien invasion is not a domestic affair.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-17 21:53:09 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Wow! This is such a fundamental plot flaw, that I couldn’t open my eyes wide enough to see it. Thanks.>>

Not really, People have suddenly become deaf and blind, and yet they did not go mad. Most had a lot of phychological problems, but some do surprisingly well. It all depends on who it is.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:57:12 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Sorry, the basic premise is flawed. Romulan ships can warp undetected when cloaked. The Federation ships were in a grid a few thousand kilometers across. Warp two light years away undetected, cross the border and head on in. At most you lose an hour. Better late than never.>>

They were using Tachyons which are faster than any ship (thats what they use for sensors afterall), they probaly had sealed of the Entire Border, and the Federation Border station CAN pick up cloaks (“Face of the Enemy”).

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 21:58:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I know its a pretty far out idea, but how about requiring ships to pass through customs including a search scan, and tag of items in the vessel? Mmm?>>

Changlings are too good, remember, they fool all Federation scanners.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 22:02:06 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Sheridan is LEADING a force of many races. No human would have a problem with that.>>
Yet he is also being “led” by the Vorlons.

<<Secondly, if Trek does develop the attitude that its just like different states, then they are totally unbased in reality. Many humans would never settle for that and who knows about the psychology of alien races. Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. Trek aliens are just humans in funny suits, that’s right.>>
How do you know what humans would settle for, have you met any aliens? :). There is not enough data to make that assuption. And some humans DID have a problem then an alien making those decisions (Leighton and his followers).

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Genghis MatterWave
Date: 96-08-17 22:03:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<AcDec- is that your significant other I hear?>>
Nope, she is too busy laughing a Wave’s ineptitude at making a point. :)

 

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Vorlons with Valen
Date: 96-08-17 22:05:21 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Remember, so far everything that was “unexplained” or “inconsistent” in B5 has eventually been explained.>>

What about Deleen changing from asexual, into a female after the pilot?
–AcDec

 

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-17 22:13:52 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< ST defenders are to a man persons wholly convinced of their moral rectitude and certitude, but have never faced a really hard decision of ethics,>>

Generalizing are we. You care to provide PROOF that no defender of Trek has ever faced a sticky moral delimma? I happen to know many doctors that are big trek fans, and I doubt you can find very many professions that have more sticky ethical situations than those who practice medicine.
Maybe you need to understand that B5 and Trek are just TV shows, not guiding moral philosophies.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 22:16:55 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Hugh was picked up by a small Borg scout cube, that cube then rendevous with a larger Borg cube. >>
We don’t know this. The only Borg cube we ever saw was destroyed before then. They could have been riding a barbell shaped ship for all we saw (or at least all I remember).
BTW, and this isn’t directed at you necessarily, AcDec, but whoever it was (I really don’t remember) who tried to clarify that Warp business, defending Voyager’s “Warp 10 is ultimate speed” episode. Whatever happened to pokishly slow by comparison Warp 13 from “All Good Things”? Warp was renumbered to be slower between now and 20 years from now????

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 22:18:31 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<This explains why all Borg ships in the universe did not self-destruct during BOBW>>
Has anyone ever tried to defend the deus ex machina of that particular Borg ship blowing up whenever it goes to sleep? (No wonder they’re so nasty… they’re dead tired!) They could at least have had the away team push a button or blow up the sleeping cube.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 22:21:26 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Ro turned over to the Maquis and O’Brian is somewhat of a sympathiser. And that stupid treaty is causing a great deal of havok in the Federation. (we will see more this coming season).>>
I thought the Cardassians were yesterday’s news, Eastasia, don’t bother us with them anymore, we’ve moved on?
If Trek does get back to this, no doubt it’ll be sandwiched into a month also containing the return of Quark’s mother, Kira’s delivery, and the Quark-Quark’s wife-Worf love triangle. (Voyager MAY be getting a clue, but DS9 still looks to be pretty clueless.)

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-17 22:27:29 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<By calling the Federation a federation, they therfore tell us the basic layout of the government (hint: a federal government). An invasion by a forgien power would be handled by the top power ie. the Presidant of the Federation. I did not know that the writers need to explain what a federation is.>>
Sorry, Ac, but maybe you’re the one who’s a bit confused. The term “federal” or “federation” for our national government is a HUGE misnomer at this point, laying upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a greater burden than they could reasonably be expected to bear. The original idea was of 13 separate states in weak alliance for mutual protection. (We used to have this little thing called the 10th amendment to make that clear, but FDR repealed it.)
Federations and confederations are notoriously weak forms of government that never last long before turning into imperialistic states by the strongest member (see the Delian League/Athenian Empire). It simply is not believable that Trek’s Federation, being what they insist it is, could last so long and be so effective. (For an example of the autonomy enjoyed by members, notice that when Kirk and gang went to Vulcan as renegades, they could stay there for months and the Federation army (ie, Starfleet) couldn’t touch them.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-17 22:29:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< the Federation Border station CAN pick up cloaks>>
Somebody better check on those federation Border stations… they’ve been doing a LOUSY job. (Let’s not even talk about Picard’s little trip right to the planet Romulus)

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-18 00:52:24 EDT
From: Ckekjk
Posted on: America Online

<<Generalizing are we. You care to provide PROOF that no defender of Trek has ever faced a sticky moral delimma? I happen to know many doctors that are big trek fans, and I doubt you can find very many professions that have more sticky ethical situations than those who practice medicine.
Maybe you need to understand that B5 and Trek are just TV shows, not guiding moral philosophies.

Doctors since the time of Ascepilus have ben held up as arbiters of ethical behavior, however their ethics are comaritively simple as they are in the service of a clearly defineable intrinsic good, that is health. As the questions being posed on this board are primarily politcal questions they counterpose themselves on the questions of what is justice, and how best can humans, and theoretical non-humans, live together? As Plato showed so admirably in the Republic this is a far stickier question than those faced by the cardiovascular plumbers you admire so extravigantly for their rectutude. See Republic: Book 1, on the city of men as beasts. The master sets it out so more eloquently than I can. If possible, use a Greek edition AcDec, I recommend Oxford. Failing that, try Bloom.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-18 16:05:27 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< We don’t know this. The only Borg cube we ever saw was destroyed before then. They could have been riding a barbell shaped ship for all we saw (or at least all I remember).>>

We know that Hugh was picked up by a small 5 person Borg cube (the same kind like the one he crashed in). That cube then HAD to have rendeavous with with a larger Borg vessel because of the statements made in “Descent”. We know the Borg use the cube design for at least two ship types (the Big Cubes in “Q who,” and “BOBW”, and the small cubes in “I’Borg”). Also the ship in “Descent” showed some attempt at asthetics (one “arm” of the ship is longer than the other, just like the Borg themselves), and the collective Borg have no need of asthetics and only care about functionality; hence the basic cube shape.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-18 16:07:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Has anyone ever tried to defend the deus ex machina of that particular Borg ship blowing up whenever it goes to sleep? (No wonder they’re so nasty… they’re dead tired!) They could at least have had the away team push a button or blow up the sleeping cube.>>

It was a self destruct initiated because of the Borg’s malfunction. It was probaly a safety devise to keep their technology out of the hands of the enemy.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-18 16:10:48 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< If Trek does get back to this, no doubt it’ll be sandwiched into a month also containing the return of Quark’s mother, Kira’s delivery, and the Quark-Quark’s wife-Worf love triangle. (Voyager MAY be getting a clue, but DS9 still looks to be pretty clueless.)>>

Jest because the people who make DS9 like to devote 4 or 5 episodes a year to comedy, it does not mean they are “clueless”. They have some very ‘Dark’ episodes planned, and they need to lighten the mood sometimes. If you don’t like comedy, then don’t watch those episodes.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-18 16:14:22 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Federations and confederations are notoriously weak forms of government that never last long before turning into imperialistic states by the strongest member (see the Delian League/Athenian Empire). It simply is not believable that Trek’s Federation, being what they insist it is, could last so long and be so effective. (For an example of the autonomy enjoyed by members, notice that when Kirk and gang went to Vulcan as renegades, they could stay there for months and the Federation army (ie, Starfleet) couldn’t touch them.)>>

Our government is a federation, and yes confederations are quite weak, but since we have never tries a government made up of as many diffrent alien cultures, then we really don’t know if it would work, do we?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-18 16:16:20 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Somebody better check on those federation Border stations… they’ve been doing a LOUSY job. (Let’s not even talk about Picard’s little trip right to the planet Romulus)>>

How are they doing a bad job? Small ships can sometimes sneak through, but an invasion force never could.

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-18 16:19:48 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Doctors since the time of Ascepilus have ben held up as arbiters of ethical behavior, however their ethics are comaritively simple as they are in the service of a clearly defineable intrinsic good, that is health. As the questions being posed on this board are primarily politcal questions they counterpose themselves on the questions of what is justice, and how best can humans, and theoretical non-humans, live together? As Plato showed so admirably in the Republic this is a far stickier question than those faced by the cardiovascular plumbers you admire so extravigantly for their rectutude. See Republic: Book 1, on the city of men as beasts. The master sets it out so more eloquently than I can. If possible, use a Greek edition AcDec, I recommend Oxford. Failing that, try Bloom.>>

Go ask Jack Kavorkian if doctors have to face ethical delimmas, or ask anyone who has done triage after a major accident. I have a copy of “The Republic” somewhere and I’ll get back to you.

–AcDec

Subj: whatever…
Date: 96-08-18 18:15:43 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>> So when they decided to move him over to DS9 they just changed or rewrote or just made his history and his rank a little clearer that’s all.<<

That’s all? Changed a past premise arbitrarily instead of using a little mental muscle? Laziness.

>>What about Deleen changing from asexual, into a female after the pilot?<<

I file this under the same production problems that Trek has used to address the Klingon forehead/lack-thereof. JMS wasn’t satisfied with the modulated voice used for Delenn’s asexuality and decided to give Minbari genders. I have never complained about the Klingon’s physical changes-I think they are for the better and realize it’s a production issue. This ISNT laziness.

>>How are they doing a bad job? Small ships can sometimes sneak through, but an invasion force never could.<<

Here is another example of B.S.- those tachyon detectors were arranged on a horizontal plane(Boy, no wonder those Romulans cant win a war-bigger and better ships,cloaking technology, and no brains)-it would take a MASSIVE effort to “sneak attack proof” even a small region of three-dimensional space.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-18 23:10:12 EDT
From: RedQueen5
Posted on: America Online

I think statements like
<<They did not use technology in changing Odo, they used the combided power of the great link.>>
in response to questions about the Changelings capabilities to produce such results is a clear example of the kind of reflex response I’m talking about.

Anyone whose read these boards is aware of it, no point in my wasting my time to produce further examples here; you have and will continue to post these types of responses for at least the foreseable future… let time tell.

PS Don’t get me wrong AcDec, your seemingly singular devotion to this thread and your continued willingness to suspend disbelief is truly inspiring! Gosh, I wish I had the time…..really, hats off!!!

Red
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 02:48:18 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<in response to questions about the Changelings capabilities to produce such results is a clear example of the kind of reflex response I’m talking about.>>

What is so wrong about what I said. The changlings DID NOT USE TECHNOLOGY, they used their natural abilities. It is like the diffrence bewteen using a fork or using your fingers.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-19 02:52:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Here is another example of B.S.- those tachyon detectors were arranged on a horizontal plane(Boy, no wonder those Romulans cant win a war-bigger and better ships,cloaking technology, and no brains)-it would take a MASSIVE effort to “sneak attack proof” even a small region of three-dimensional space.>>

If they have FTL travel, and transporting, then using a group of sattilaites making a cloak proff ares is not hard to belive. The motion detectors in my house work in all 3 diminsions. They would however probaly need to arrange the ships in a cube-like pattern.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-19 15:46:22 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

The Vorlons already knew Sinclair was Valen. Thus the Vorlon’s comment to the Membari when Sinclair first got the message from Valen:

He is returning to the beginning
He is the closed circle.

I know this may be a bit subtle for most Trek fans who are used to having flawed storylines shoved down their throats, but it was explained in the episode.

Subj: Re:Genghis MatterWave
Date: 96-08-19 15:48:31 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>MatterWave-
You’re a wave alright, kind of like a certain Mongolian wave…

Paraphrasing:
Q: “What is best in life?”
A: “To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations on their women.”

AcDec- is that your significant other I hear?

>>Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot. Trek aliens are just humans in funny suits, that’s right.<<
Wrong! Don’t forget the “nose-prothsetic”…<<

Sorry, I missed that, I was too busy drinking the blood from my horse’s neck as I screamed across the plains. :)

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-19 16:16:08 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The minute detail of whether O’brien pips are what they should be is just a bit much don’t you think? What is the big deal anyway? The character was never that big a deal on TNG so no one cares what his rank is, So when they decided to move him over to DS9 they just changed or rewrote or just made his history and his rank a little clearer that’s all. This crap about the writers not researching the character is just plain bull<<

They didn’t, so why is it “bull” to doint that out?

>>These people are running a business here and they are all profesionals who know what their doing.<<

If they were, they would do PROFESSIONAL work and maintain consistency within the character.

>>The fact that O’brien has two pips on his collar or one or none is really not that important unless your really looking for dirt on Star Trek<<

Yeah, no one really cares about professional pride. So what if we’re a bit sloppy here, a bit lazy there, the great unwashed will still buy our merchandise.

>>So you can can continue to whine about how bad it is. Please spare me, This isn’t bad writing at all it’s just a bit of reworking on a character who fit into his role well on TNG but needed a different designation on DS9.<<

I’ll say it again. It is by definititon poor writing to deliberately create inconsistencies, particularly in a case like this where all yau had to do was a little research.

>>If you want to talk about bad writing how about that esp of B5 where EarthGov fighters fire on not only Mars colony but on B5 as well on the orders of a President where evidence existed that he was involved in the plot to kill the last President. Just having that tape, which was said to be tamper proof shown the way it was, Should at least have convinced those fighters that they were being used for the personel goals of a corrupt President Clark.<<

Yeah, nothing like that has ever happened in human history. The Russian democratic government really isn’t firing on fellow Russians in Chechnya. No, all those soldiers think the Chechyans are noble freedom fighters.

No, we didn’t hear the comments made by the commander of the Agamemnon that Clarke had control of the press and was filtering news or that many in the Senate were on his side, or the involvements of Nightwatch attempting to locate and weed out troublemakers before Clarke made his move, or the fact that Clarke had replaced key officers or that a significant portion of Earthfrorce DID break away as a result of Clarke’s actions, or that the events leading up to Clarke’s coup were similar in many ways to Hitler’s rise in Democratic Germany.
>>Star Trek Captains would NEVER fire on their own people EVER, Unless they were damn sure it had to be done and that the orders weren’t coming from a corrupt mouthpiece of the Federation.<<

Another example of how Trek isn’t even close to reality, remember Waco?

>>Trek Captains are alot brighter<<

These captains were either Clarke puppets or were men afraid to risk their lives or careers taking a stand. This makes them more human and more believable. Not every captain can be a noble hero. Sheridan and a few others like him will put their lives and careers on the line for what thay beleive in. That’s why they are the heroes.

>>and have a little more common sense then the idiots fighters and Captains we have seen on B5.<<

B5 deals with human nature far better than any Trek episode. You talk about idiot fighters and captains and maybe so, but human history is filled with such people. Trek is an idealitic utopia. B5 is real human drama and a real look at what we might really have to deal with when we finally do go out there.

>>With a EarthGov like this who needs the Shadows?<<

Who do you think is behind all these changes? Or didn’t you see the episode where Mr. Mordan is consulting with the head of Psicorps and the Senate Intelligence Committee?
Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:19:22 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Maybe it is you who are confused. Hugh was picked up by a small Borg scout cube, that cube then rendevous with a larger Borg cube. The “individuality infection” spreads and the Borg then restucture their ship to reflect their individuality.<<

I don’t ever remember that point being made or implied in the either episode, and I watched both twice. Can you get post some dialog to support your point?

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:21:48 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>A single Borg ship is a collective among itself. They use subspace communications that are very fast but not instant (BOBW). Therefore only Borg close enough to have almost instantanious communication can form a complete collective. Any farther apart and a consiousness would be to slow to be effective. This explains why all Borg ships in the universe did not self-destruct during BOBW, and also why Hughs individuality only affected one mothership.<<

Then Hugh COULD NOT destroy the collective with his sense of individual identity since each collective, by your definition is an individual and so would have no diificulty with the concept.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 16:23:38 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Ro turned over to the Maquis and O’Brian is somewhat of a sympathiser. And that stupid treaty is causing a great deal of havok in the Federation. (we will see more this coming season). <<

You illustrate my point. The treaty is causing havoc and discord in the federation. A couple more like it, and the whole nation would collapse.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 16:25:28 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>But we still don’t know if a cloaked ship can even pass through the wormhole. Also, the Bajorian government is in charge of it, and they have more pressing problems than smuggling.<<

Yeah, like national security when you’ve got a gateway into the vast unknown right in your back yard, and isn’t that one of the reasons they let the feds come in in the first place?

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:29:58 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>We have not seen the last of the Borg yet, they will probaly address some of these “issues”. Also remeber that they only have 45 minutes to tell a story they can’t explain EVERYTHING, thats why I’m here.<<

Yes you can. Besides, they’ve had three or four times 45 minutes and haven’t started to address ANY of these issues yet. What makes you think they will in the motion picture when you yourself defended Trek on the basis that the movies were the most inconsisitent of all? And don’t even try and tell me that you were only referring to the TOS Trek movies. I can decimate the firt TNG movie in about three paragraphs.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:30:58 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The Borg have not yet had a case of a member of the collective leaving and then coming back, that was an unknown to them and they probaly did not plan for it.<<

How do you know. What episode brought that point out?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 16:35:40 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Another generality. Can you give specifics, or are you really Kosh?<<

Sorry, I forget that extensive veiwing of Trek TNG can blunt your sense of the subtle.

All good storytelling, even pure fantasy, must be beleivable. Your characters must behave in a way that the reader can believe, or if you require the reader to suspend belief, you must do so in a rational and reasonable manner which the reader will accept. Otherwise you’ll come across as ignorant, ridiculous or plain stupid.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:41:59 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>By calling the Federation a federation, they therfore tell us the basic layout of the government (hint: a federal government). An invasion by a forgien power would be handled by the top power ie. the Presidant of the Federation. I did not know that the writers need to explain what a federation is.<<

You need to study up on federal governments. The legislative body is ALWAYS involved in matters of security. In the US this is handled by the House and Senate Intelligence and Armed Services Committees which are bodied by representatives of the several States. In the Trek federation, according to your definition, the various representatives of member worlds should have been present and advised on all matters. And since Earth is obviously the most powerful and influential member world, it is only reasonable that their representatives would be present. The fact that they weren’t is yet another example of how out of it Trek is.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 16:49:33 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>That cloak in “Balance of Terror” was primative compared to the Cloaks of the 24th century (the ships motion could be picked up back then). The ships in TNG could somehow mask all particle emmisions, and I see no reason why they could not do it with incoming particles.<<

Then the tachyonic detection grid would never work and the Federation should have fallen to the Romulans long ago. Here’s how it would work:

Send in cloaked scout ships. Identify all Federation main military installations. Send in cloaked missiles, each packing about 5 metric tons of antimatter. Drop the missile onto the unsuspecting world. No weapon ever needs to be fired, so the missile stays cloaked all the way to impact. Time the strikes so all occur within an hour or so, maning sure you take out key worlds in the process(like Earth). Move your conventional forces in during the resultant chaos and defenselessness and take over.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 16:52:44 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>But Gali is not a citizan of the US. The President of the Federation is a citizan of the Federation of which Earth is a part. And as I have said before, in a federal government, forgien invasion is not a domestic affair.<<

And I’ll say it again, no human would have non-humans in a leadership position over them, it’s may be a utopian dream of tolerance and open-mindedness, but is not plausable. And foregn invasion is a domestic affair in federal governments as I pointed out in my previous post.

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-19 16:56:29 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Not really, People have suddenly become deaf and blind, and yet they did not go mad. Most had a lot of phychological problems, but some do surprisingly well. It all depends on who it is.<<

Wrong. The actual comparison would be like throwing someone into an isolation tank. ALL people placed in such an environment will begin to show severe psychological dysfunction within a day or so and studies indicate that permanent madness or even death would probably occur in far less than a week.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 16:58:44 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>They were using Tachyons which are faster than any ship (thats what they use for sensors afterall), they probaly had sealed of the Entire Border, and the Federation Border station CAN pick up cloaks (“Face of the Enemy”).<<

Watch the episode. The grid was set up BETWEEN the federation ships. The Romulan display clearly showed it that way and when part of the grid was overloaded, the federation ships had to fall back and regroup.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 17:00:36 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Changlings are too good, remember, they fool all Federation scanners.<<

Then my original point. Changelings conquer Federation and make it “safe” for them by instituting a ruthless dictatorship. You cannot defend against an enemy you cannot detect.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 17:04:57 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>><< Sheridan is LEADING a force of many races. No human would have a problem with that.>>
Yet he is also being “led” by the Vorlons.<<

Really? I guess I missed that when he didn’t consult the Vorlons before rescuing the rangers or takng B4 back in time or hiding the existence of EpsilonII from them or demanding Kosh order his fleet to attack the shadows or Kosh ASKING Sheridan to let Mr. Mordan go. I always got the impression that Sheridan was in charge, here.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 17:07:43 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>How do you know what humans would settle for, have you met any aliens? :). There is not enough data to make that assuption. And some humans DID have a problem then an alien making those decisions (Leighton and his followers).<<

That’s really an asinine comment. Because I AM one, of course (despite you’re veiled hints that I might be a time-traveling Vorlon.) and I wouldn’t stand for it. Considering I’m pretty average, I thnk it’s a safe extrapolation that most humans wouldn’t.

Subj: Re: Vorlons with Valen
Date: 96-08-19 17:09:13 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>What about Deleen changing from asexual, into a female after the pilot?<<

What?? Are you talking about the premiere movie? She was definitely feminine in that.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 17:14:34 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> Federations and confederations are notoriously weak forms of government that never last long before turning into imperialistic states by the strongest member (see the Delian League/Athenian Empire). It simply is not believable that Trek’s Federation, being what they insist it is, could last so long and be so effective. (For an example of the autonomy enjoyed by members, notice that when Kirk and gang went to Vulcan as renegades, they could stay there for months and the Federation army (ie, Starfleet) couldn’t touch them.)<<

This is an excellent point. Our type of government is officially a representative republic.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 17:17:29 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> Somebody better check on those federation Border stations… they’ve been doing a LOUSY job. (Let’s not even talk about Picard’s little trip right to the planet Romulus)<<

No, no, my personal favorite is when Spock and Data personally break the entire Romulan military code and gain access to the Proconsul’s personal files in a matter of a few hours, in orbit, from the bridge of a Klingon scout ship!

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 17:19:31 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> Borg have no need of asthetics and only care about functionality; hence the basic cube shape.<<

Actually, this is another inconsistency. The most efficient shape is a sphere, not a cube.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 17:25:40 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Our government is a federation, and yes confederations are quite weak, but since we have never tries a government made up of as many diffrent alien cultures, then we really don’t know if it would work, do we?<<

Our government is a representative republic. One of the main reasons we have the problems we do in this country is that many of us are shamefully ignorant of the nature and philosophy behind our government.

Your second point is ridiculous. If federations of HUMANS are weak and fragile, and we all have the same basic psychology, then its a very safe bet that federations of aliens with alien psychologies would be a nightmare. Look at all the problems Sheridan is having with his alliance and this is with the threat of imminent extermination hanging over their heads. And, he’s trying for an even weaker form of government.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-19 17:27:41 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>How are they doing a bad job? Small ships can sometimes sneak through, but an invasion force never could.<<

You mean small like a guided missile carrying 5 or 10 metric tons of antimatter? A missile that would be somewhat smaller than a two-man shuttle?

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-19 19:48:53 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Here is another example of B.S.- those tachyon detectors were arranged on a horizontal plane(Boy, no wonder those Romulans cant win a war-bigger and better ships,cloaking technology, and no brains)-it would take a MASSIVE effort to “sneak attack proof” even a small region of three-dimensional space.<<

Try impossible. Even if there are no systems nearby that might affect sensor accuracy, there is still a large amount of interstellar space to check out, and in interstellar space, a ship can drift through with all power and emissions shut off, or cloak on, whatever. It can run silent for a very long time before something would necessitate the functions or drives of the ship. With myriad micro-meteors, anomolies (a dime a dozen in Trek) and other such gooses to chase, who’s going to notice a dead hulk of metal drifting past 1000 klicks “below” or “to the side” of you? Surely the Federation would want to cover the whole Neutral zone, right? Well, with as many a 100 ships, that still leaves a LOT of open space for sneaky Romulans to get through.

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-19 19:51:56 EDT
From: VoxLumania
Posted on: America Online

>>Star Trek Captains would NEVER fire on their own people EVER, Unless they were damn sure it had to be done and that the orders weren’t coming from a corrupt mouthpiece of the Federation.<<

But, they DID fire on their own people. Look at the DS9 episode “Paradise Lost”

-bill

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-19 19:58:08 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>
Wrong. The actual comparison would be like throwing someone into an isolation tank. ALL people placed in such an environment will begin to show severe psychological dysfunction within a day or so and studies indicate that permanent madness or even death would probably occur in far less than a week.<<

Like in the King story, “The Jaunt”, or what happened to AM in Ellison’s “I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.”

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 20:01:40 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>>> Borg have no need of asthetics and only care about functionality; hence the basic cube shape.<<

Actually, this is another inconsistency. The most efficient shape is a sphere, not a cube.<<

Well, if the Borg use reaction-thrusters, then a cube would be efficient. But I don’t think ANYONE in ST uses reaction thrusters anymore, those barbaric, primitive, fuel-wasters!

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 20:09:38 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< “One of the main reasons we have the problems we do in this country is that many of us are shamefully ignorant of the nature and philosophy behind our government.” >>

That’s not true. Most of us are aware that the “nature” of many politicians may be summed up as the “nature” of the “birds and the bees.” Certainly that’s the primary “philposphy” of mnany who sserve our republican form of government…. And as for being “shamefully ignorant” about my government’s ‘behinds,” well, that’s only because I just can’t seem to find anything interesting about Albert D’Alfonso’s “behind,” or Pat Schroeder’s, or Newt Gingrich’s, or especially Sony Bono’s (even Cher lost interest in that political subject)….

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 21:03:13 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

>>I can decimate the firt TNG movie in about three paragraphs.<<

Bet you can’t…

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 23:27:14 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>The Borg have not yet had a case of a member of the collective leaving and then coming back, that was an unknown to them and they probaly did not plan for it.<<

Seems kinda an obvious weakness to do something about… especially after that incident with Picard. They went to all the trouble of creating a “mouthpiece”, complete with an individual name, to interact with “species of individuals” (guess the rest of the galaxy doesn’t have them or something). If they were that concerned with the threat/problems/challenges posed by “races of individuals” you think a race as clever and adaptable as the Borg would’ve foreseen something like this. Especially after the pains taken to cut “Locutus” off.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 23:30:34 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>That’s not true. Most of us are aware that the “nature” of many politicians may be summed up as the “nature” of the “birds and the bees.” Certainly that’s the primary “philposphy” of mnany who sserve our republican form of government…. And as for being “shamefully ignorant” about my government’s ‘behinds,” well, that’s only because I just can’t seem to find anything interesting about Albert D’Alfonso’s “behind,” or Pat Schroeder’s, or Newt Gingrich’s, or especially Sony Bono’s (even Cher lost interest in that political subject)…. <<

Ah, a budding satirist. :)

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-19 23:48:30 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Bet you can’t…<<

Ah, the gauntlet has been thrown, I must accept. If I do it in less than three, do I lose?

OK, here goes.

As you know, the movie starts by having Kirk and some of the TOS cast help rescue the crew from a ship that was in distress. We learn later that the villain had been in that vessel and had experienced the nexus briefly and would do anything to return, but a ship would not survive the transition. People could, but not spacecraft. NOT! Spacecraft, even flimsy ones like the Apollo spacecraft are a whole heck of a lot tougher than a flimsy human body. Anything that would rip a spaceship apart would make people look like so much ground meat.

OK, let’s suspend our belief on that one. Kirk enters the Nexus unharmed after being blown out of the ship. Well, our hero can therefore bring a ship close to the Nexus, get in a spacesuit and drift into it. No need to spend a lifetime trying to learn how to destroy suns so he can alter the course of the Nexus.

Well, let’s blow that one off too. Even if the villain DID blow up a few stars, the gravity of the star would NOT change. The mass is still all there, and even if the stellar core and the expanding blast shell is a trillion miles across, that’s still a point source to an object even one light year away. Ergo destroying suns would not affect the course of the Nexus in the least. You would have to entirely obliterate their existence.

Well, OK, let’s assume the villain does obliterate the mass of the star entirely, perhaps shifting the entire sun into subspace or something. Still won’t work.Gravity propogates at the speed of light, and even if you somehow magically removed the entire stellar mass into an alternate continuum, the Nexus would still feel its gravitational influence for however many years it took for light and gravity from the star to reach it.

Conclusion, there is no way in h—- the villain could have done squat to affect the course of the Nexus, and there was no need for him to even try. Simply don a suit, fly into it and live happily ever after.

I wrote more than three paragraphs, but I totally eviscerated (I love that word) the plot in about 1 and a half, so the prosecution rests its case.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:27:05 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I don’t ever remember that point being made or implied in the either episode, and I watched both twice. Can you get post some dialog to support your point?>>

They specificly stated that Hugh was picked up by a five man scout cube. In “Descent” there are much more then five Borg, and therefore the scout that picled up Hugh must have randeavoused with a larger ship.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:31:26 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Then Hugh COULD NOT destroy the collective with his sense of individual identity since each collective, by your definition is an individual and so would have no diificulty with the concept.>>

There is a diffrence bewteen an individual member of a society (like Hugh became) and an individual society made up of many people. Kind of life the diffrece bewteen individual rights and state’s rights. (in case you have not noticed, the whole Borg thing was an allusion to the diffreces bewteen societies which respect individual rights, and those who put the well-being of the state first.)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 03:32:44 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You illustrate my point. The treaty is causing havoc and discord in the federation. A couple more like it, and the whole nation would collapse.>>

True, so what is your point? That the Federation is like the U.S.A. and has been in danger of collapsing.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 03:35:24 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Yeah, like national security when you’ve got a gateway into the vast unknown right in your back yard, and isn’t that one of the reasons they let the feds come in in the first place?>>

The Bajorians invited the Federation BEFORE the wormhole was discovered. The Fed. was there to help them re-build, and prepare for Federation membership. And unfortuanatly the Bajorian government is too busy fighting amoung themselves to worry much about the wormhole.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:39:07 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes you can. Besides, they’ve had three or four times 45 minutes and haven’t started to address ANY of these issues yet. What makes you think they will in the motion picture when you yourself defended Trek on the basis that the movies were the most inconsisitent of all? And don’t even try and tell me that you were only referring to the TOS Trek movies. I can decimate the firt TNG movie in about three paragraphs.>>

I think they HAVE addresed these issues, but that you just don’t undstand becuse they did not make it clear enough for you. That is what I am doing, trying to show you what you missed.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:40:11 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<How do you know. What episode brought that point out?>>

Maybe because Hugh SAID it.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 03:43:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<All good storytelling, even pure fantasy, must be beleivable. Your characters must behave in a way that the reader can believe, or if you require the reader to suspend belief, you must do so in a rational and reasonable manner which the reader will accept. Otherwise you’ll come across as ignorant, ridiculous or plain stupid.>>

Do you just like going around stateing obvious things or are you trying to make a point about one of the Trek shows. And a judgment of somthings believability is purely subjective, look at how many people actually believe what the Bible says.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:45:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You need to study up on federal governments. The legislative body is ALWAYS involved in matters of security. In the US this is handled by the House and Senate Intelligence and Armed Services Committees which are bodied by representatives of the several States. In the Trek federation, according to your definition, the various representatives of member worlds should have been present and advised on all matters. And since Earth is obviously the most powerful and influential member world, it is only reasonable that their representatives would be present. The fact that they weren’t is yet another example of how out of it Trek is.>>

The Federation President declared martial-law (just like Clark in B5) and there would not be much anyone in the Fed council could do once Leighton had controll.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 03:53:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Then the tachyonic detection grid would never work and the Federation should have fallen to the Romulans long ago. Here’s how it would work:
Send in cloaked scout ships. Identify all Federation main military installations. Send in cloaked missiles, each packing about 5 metric tons of antimatter. Drop the missile onto the unsuspecting world. No weapon ever needs to be fired, so the missile stays cloaked all the way to impact. Time the strikes so all occur within an hour or so, maning sure you take out key worlds in the process(like Earth). Move your conventional forces in during the resultant chaos and defenselessness and take over.>>

The Tachyons grids do work (Redemption), so I guess when they pass though a ship they have some property slightly changed and therfore a ship picking up said tachyons would then be able to tell that they had passed through a cloaked vessel. I would have to guess that the cloak would prevent tachyons from bouncing back to the sender ship (therefore making them invisable to sensors) but that they are altered by the process and therefore making them dectectable by another ship recieving those tachyons. Fortunatly they have not made us sit through the techno-babble that would explain this.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 03:59:08 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<And I’ll say it again, no human would have non-humans in a leadership position over them>>
Considering that we have never met any non-humans then that is just your speculation.

<< it’s may be a utopian dream of tolerance and open-mindedness, but is not plausable. And foregn invasion is a domestic affair in federal governments as I pointed out in my previous post.>>

Congress would have no say if the commander-in-chief declares martial-law, and if they did complain, Leighton would just order Starfleet security to detain them as shape-shifters. Also, Earths Governer would NOT be in charge, the Federation Presidant would be. (just like if Mexico invaded Texas; Clinton would call the shots, not Gov. Bush)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-20 04:02:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Wrong. The actual comparison would be like throwing someone into an isolation tank. ALL people placed in such an environment will begin to show severe psychological dysfunction within a day or so and studies indicate that permanent madness or even death would probably occur in far less than a week.>>

No, because an isolation tank would take away all senses. Troi lost her empathy but she still had her other senses.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 04:05:32 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Watch the episode. The grid was set up BETWEEN the federation ships. The Romulan display clearly showed it that way and when part of the grid was overloaded, the federation ships had to fall back and regroup.>>

I was refering to the Federation-Romulan border from “Face of the Enemy” which has tachyon grids and “gavitic sensors” . “Redemtion” was the Klingon-Romulan border.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 04:12:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Then my original point. Changelings conquer Federation and make it “safe” for them by instituting a ruthless dictatorship. You cannot defend against an enemy you cannot detect.>>

But they can be detected by how they ACT. If they tried to turn the Federation into a dictator ship, then people would know that that person was a changling. That is why the did not take over the Federation’s government, but the Klingons instead. Most Klingons would not suspect that Gowron is a changling because his actions seem normal for a Klingon. However, because of the long alliance w/ the Feds. they had to make the Federation look bad to the Klingon people, and they did that by invading Cardassia and therefore having the Federation side agianst them. Now, in the final episode of last year they are laying claim to some long-disputed territory (That same sector was in dispute in a TOS episode) and therefore giving them (Klingons) a reason to start a war with the Federation. A very complex and ingenious plan.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 04:17:55 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Really? I guess I missed that when he didn’t consult the Vorlons before rescuing the rangers or takng B4 back in time or hiding the existence of EpsilonII from them or demanding Kosh order his fleet to attack the shadows or Kosh ASKING Sheridan to let Mr. Mordan go. I always got the impression that Sheridan was in charge, here.>>

It was not even his idea to take B4 back in time, he pretty much HAD to (it had already happened). How do you know the Vorlons don’t know of episolon3? Sheridan is technaclly in charge, but he is being manipulated by the Vorlons (as it seems to me, but we really don’t have enough information to be sure). There is a lot of “grey” in the B5 universe, of course that is why I love the show.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 04:20:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<That’s really an asinine comment. Because I AM one, of course (despite you’re veiled hints that I might be a time-traveling Vorlon.) and I wouldn’t stand for it. Considering I’m pretty average, I thnk it’s a safe extrapolation that most humans wouldn’t.>>

That is one of the oldest assuptions in the book, that you really know what you are going to do in a situation when it really happens, and from personal experiance I can say most people don’t really know what they are capable of.

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Vorlons with Valen
Date: 96-08-20 04:22:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<What?? Are you talking about the premiere movie? She was definitely feminine in that.>>

No she was not, someone said JMS gave the Minbari sexes because he did not like the way the “unisex” voices sounded.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 04:25:44 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<This is an excellent point. Our type of government is officially a representative republic.>>

Yes, but it is a Federal republic. I guess if you really wanted to put it the long way you could say it is a federal representative constitutional republic.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Bester’s “weakness”
Date: 96-08-20 17:47:03 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>I know this may be a bit subtle for most Trek fans who are used to having flawed storylines shoved down their throats, but it was explained in the episode.<<

It was also too subtle for most of the B5 fans I’ve asked about it, who still have no idea how that occurred.

Randy

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 17:49:06 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>The fact that they weren’t is yet another example of how out of it Trek is.<<

Bought a TV Guide this week, MatterWave?

Randy

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 17:50:48 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>>> Borg have no need of asthetics and only care about functionality; hence the basic cube shape.<<

Actually, this is another inconsistency. The most efficient shape is a sphere, not a cube.<<

Funny you should mention that…..

Randy

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 17:52:37 EDT
From: Randy Hall
Posted on: America Online

>>>>I can decimate the firt TNG movie in about three paragraphs.<<

Bet you can’t…<<

THREE paragraphs? Try two words: Laundry List.

Randy

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 18:51:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Actually, this is another inconsistency. The most efficient shape is a sphere, not a cube.>>

The Borg were going to originally going to have a huge sphere, but they then remembered that Star Wars already had huge spheres and they wanted somthing diffrent.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 18:53:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Your second point is ridiculous. If federations of HUMANS are weak and fragile, and we all have the same basic psychology, then its a very safe bet that federations of aliens with alien psychologies would be a nightmare.>>

All humans have the same basic phycologies? Now that is ridiculous.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 18:55:08 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<You mean small like a guided missile carrying 5 or 10 metric tons of antimatter? A missile that would be somewhat smaller than a two-man shuttle?>>

Maybe but MAD would still apply in the 24th Century. And the Roms don’t want to be extinct any more than the Feds do.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-20 18:57:01 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Surely the Federation would want to cover the whole Neutral zone, right? Well, with as many a 100 ships, that still leaves a LOT of open space for sneaky Romulans to get through.>>

That is why they have outposts and automated sensor probes.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 19:00:57 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Seems kinda an obvious weakness to do something about… especially after that incident with Picard. They went to all the trouble of creating a “mouthpiece”, complete with an individual name, to interact with “species of individuals” (guess the rest of the galaxy doesn’t have them or something).>>

By what we have seen of the Delta-Quad I don’t think the Borg have come across a group of aliens allied like the Fed is. And we don’t know if they have ever made “mouthpeices” before.

–AcDec

If they were that concerned with the threat/problems/challenges posed by “races of individuals” you think a race as clever and adaptable as the Borg would’ve foreseen something like this. Especially after the pains taken to cut “Locutus” off.

Subj: Re: asexual Delenn
Date: 96-08-20 20:06:53 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

No, that’s not actually what he said. He said in Lurker’s Guide that he originally wanted to make Delenn male (Furlan playing the part, but electronically reworking the voice to sound male). Then “he” would not only have changed to a hybrid human-minbari at the beginning of the second season, but also male to female. He abandoned the idea because the voice problems couldn’t be worked out. So Delenn is meant to be female in “The Gathering,” but they obviously rethought the makeup before the series began.

Sherry

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 20:59:36 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>There is a diffrence bewteen an individual member of a society (like Hugh became) and an individual society made up of many people. Kind of life the diffrece bewteen individual rights and state’s rights. (in case you have not noticed, the whole Borg thing was an allusion to the diffreces bewteen societies which respect individual rights, and those who put the well-being of the state first.)<<

A collective, by definition, is a group that functions as a single unit. The collective is the “being.” With multiple, isolated collectives, you have multiple isolated beings, or in other words, individuals. Your analogy is like saying I’m not really an individual, my cells are the true individuals, I’m nothing more than a social grouping. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

As for the Borg being a statement on society, I didn’t think about it too much, but I see your point.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 21:06:24 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The Bajorians invited the Federation BEFORE the wormhole was discovered. The Fed. was there to help them re-build, and prepare for Federation membership. And unfortuanatly the Bajorian government is too busy fighting amoung themselves to worry much about the wormhole.<<

So instead the Federation, already present by your admission, just ignores a major new potential threat to their security because, of course, the universe is just a lovey-dovey place and if there is any trouble, all we have to do is talk to them about how wonderful and peaceful and advanced we are. They’ll then slap their corrugated foreheads and say: “What in the world were we thinking to ever want to fight with you? We just didn’t understand how wonderful peace is. Let’s all get together in a big circle and sing Kumbaya!”

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:14:23 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>I think they HAVE addresed these issues, but that you just don’t undstand becuse they did not make it clear enough for you. That is what I am doing, trying to show you what you missed.<<

And all this time I thought you were trying to plug plot holes. :) Seriously though. Look back at your past postings. The way you make things clear is to rationalize and fabricate to plug holes in things that were never even remotely discussed.

And, you’re beginning to contradict yourself. In the post you responded to, you had specifically stated that many of these inconsistencies would no doubt be addressed in the next movie. Thus my reaction. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim all inconsistencies have been addressed and then turn around and say they will be addressed.

But, we are beginning to stray off the path. My original contention was that Trek writing for TNG, VOY and DS9 is poor writing, not because of the storylines, but because of technical incompetence. Plot flaws, contradictions, impossibilities, “deu ex machine” elements, inconsistencies. All of these are technical aspects of good writing. If you don’t follow them, the writing is by definition poor. I’ve demonstrated that sufficiently to satisfy any English professor (and since I write professionally for a living, I should know). If you choose not to accept it, that of course is your choice.

As it is, I have little interest in continuing this argument, we’re starting to go in circles. If you haven’t been convinced by now, you never will be and I have better ways to spend my time.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:17:06 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>><<How do you know. What episode brought that point out?>>

Maybe because Hugh SAID it.<<

Sorry, but my memory is not that good. You’ll have to include more of the original post and response for me to remember exactly what we were talking about on this post. I don’t have time to go back over the posts of the last few days and try to find it.
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 21:23:48 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>><<All good storytelling, even pure fantasy, must be beleivable. Your characters must behave in a way that the reader can believe, or if you require the reader to suspend belief, you must do so in a rational and reasonable manner which the reader will accept. Otherwise you’ll come across as ignorant, ridiculous or plain stupid.>>

Do you just like going around stateing obvious things or are you trying to make a point about one of the Trek shows. And a judgment of somthings believability is purely subjective, look at how many people actually believe what the Bible says.<<

Good grief! which way do you want it! I try to say something simple like “believability” and you jump all over me for being obscure. So I try to explain what I mean and you jump all over me for being too blunt. And of course I am talking about the Trek episode. This thread started because someone made the point that certain Trek plot lines were as ridiculous as the St Elmo’s fire or whatever it was, all being a dream.

You really need to work on your analogies. The Bible is a work that purports to be true. We are discussing works of fiction, where both the reader and writer know the story is a pure fabrication. The two situations are completely different. Readers of fiction will accept anything the writer presents to him as long as the rational is logical and adheres to common principles of reason. Trek fails to do either in many instances, another example of bad writing.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:28:27 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The Federation President declared martial-law (just like Clark in B5) and there would not be much anyone in the Fed council could do once Leighton had controll.<<

OK, now which reaction is more believable, the Federation council rolling over like puppies at such a flagrant violation of civil liberties, or the Earth senate and colonies reactions, of contesting the decision.

Besides, my initial point still stands. Debate was held before the declaration by Cisko, Leighton and a few others. Where was the Federation council on this one? Presidents don’t just declaring martial law without support from the legislative body or you are asking for a civil war. Just like what happened in B5.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 21:37:10 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>The Tachyons grids do work (Redemption), so I guess when they pass though a ship they have some property slightly changed and therfore a ship picking up said tachyons would then be able to tell that they had passed through a cloaked vessel. I would have to guess that the cloak would prevent tachyons from bouncing back to the sender ship (therefore making them invisable to sensors) but that they are altered by the process and therefore making them dectectable by another ship recieving those tachyons. Fortunatly they have not made us sit through the techno-babble that would explain this. <<

Pain! I bet your were great at Twister!

>>Fortunatly they have not made us sit through the techno-babble that would explain this. <<

What a delightful way to say they didn’t explain it at all. You really should work for the current adminstration. That was a beautiful spin. :).

Here’s how you would write it so as to not have technobabble:

Geordi: A tachyon grid ought to do it, captain.
Picard: Even though they are cloaked?
Geordi: Yes, sir. Romulan cloaks don’t shield effectively against tachyons. A few will be affected just enough to reveal the Romulan positions. It won’t be perfect, but it will give us general position and direction of motion. That’s the best we can do.
Picard: That will have to do. Make it so.

And now we’re back to my original point. You have to set a up a grid. Go around it or over it or under it. Unless you cover the ENTIRE Klingon empire in a detection grid, I just fly my cloaked ships through the holes.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:42:38 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>><<And I’ll say it again, no human would have non-humans in a leadership position over them>>
Considering that we have never met any non-humans then that is just your speculation.<<

True enough. It is my speculation as a human being living among human beings on a world filled with human beings in a world ruled and controlled by human beings. Purely speculatuve.

>>Congress would have no say if the commander-in-chief declares martial-law, and if they did complain, Leighton would just order Starfleet security to detain them as shape-shifters. Also, Earths Governer would NOT be in charge, the Federation Presidant would be. (just like if Mexico invaded Texas; Clinton would call the shots, not Gov. Bush) <<

If Clinton declared martial law tommorrow, we’d have civil war on Thursday unless congress and the people in general agreed. Unless of course you have an unarmed citizenry, in which case you may have a point, but in that case, it would have likely happened a long time ago when some other crisis (like the Borg) threatened the Federation.

Please pay attention. I drew the analogy between the House and Senate and Federation member worlds, not governers and Federation worlds. In case you haven’t read your Constitution lately, the President can’t declare war, nor can he use troops without congressional approval for more than 60 days, nor can he engage in covert military actions without congressional approval (Oliver North got in trouble for that one).

Subj: Re:I, Borg. U borg.
Date: 96-08-20 21:49:26 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>No, because an isolation tank would take away all senses. Troi lost her empathy but she still had her other senses.<<

Fine. Then throw someone naked into a white, padded room with absolutely NO interaction with anyone else. Talk to a psychologist about the resultant side effects. Now magnify the sensation by a thousand-fold and we may get a vague glimpse into the terrible loneliness Hugh must have felt.

In fact, I think that story development may have made Hugh a much more powerful character, to see a Borg rocking in terrible loneliness and isolation, the Enterprise crew feeling a combination of horror and pity at the scene, eventually trying to substitute human fellowship for what the Borg no longer had, and unable to, a real tragedy with deep and powerful potential. Too bad what we got was milktoast instead.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 21:51:00 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>But they can be detected by how they ACT. If they tried to turn the Federation into a dictator ship, then people would know that that person was a changling. That is why the did not take over the Federation’s government, but the Klingons instead. Most Klingons would not suspect that Gowron is a changling because his actions seem normal for a Klingon. However, because of the long alliance w/ the Feds. they had to make the Federation look bad to the Klingon people, and they did that by invading Cardassia and therefore having the Federation side agianst them. Now, in the final episode of last year they are laying claim to some long-disputed territory (That same sector was in dispute in a TOS episode) and therefore giving them (Klingons) a reason to start a war with the Federation. A very complex and ingenious plan.<<

Ever heard of a Doppleganger?

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:54:47 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>It was not even his idea to take B4 back in time, he pretty much HAD to (it had already happened). How do you know the Vorlons don’t know of episolon3? Sheridan is technaclly in charge, but he is being manipulated by the Vorlons (as it seems to me, but we really don’t have enough information to be sure). There is a lot of “grey” in the B5 universe, of course that is why I love the show.<<

Now, you won’t get any argument from me there. There is no doubt that the Vorlons are going around manipulating things like crazy, but when the confrontation came between Kosh and Sheridan, who won?

We don’t know the Vorlons don’t know about Epsilon3. That doesn’t change the fact that Sheridan is deliberately witholding the information from them.

As for B4, watch the episode again. EVERYONE waited for Sheridan to make the decision, even Sinclair. He did NOT have to take it back, that’s why Garibaldi was picking up an alternate future. Sheridan was at a temporal crux, where he could decide which of two equally real futures would actually occur based on his decision.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 21:55:52 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>That is one of the oldest assuptions in the book, that you really know what you are going to do in a situation when it really happens, and from personal experiance I can say most people don’t really know what they are capable of. <<

Well, the situation would have to be a lot different than in the Federation before I’d allow them that much power over me and mine, but I’ll grant you the point.

Subj: Re: Vorlons with Valen
Date: 96-08-20 21:59:25 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>No she was not, someone said JMS gave the Minbari sexes because he did not like the way the “unisex” voices sounded.<<

Well, it didn’t come off well, then because she certainly seemed feminine to me. I know the movie aired several times before the series started. I only saw the one that actually kicked off the original series. Were the earlier airings different?

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 22:01:28 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> The Borg were going to originally going to have a huge sphere, but they then remembered that Star Wars already had huge spheres and they wanted somthing diffrent<<

Fair enough

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 22:05:48 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>All humans have the same basic phycologies? Now that is ridiculous.<<

Yes they do and its not ridiculous. We’re talking basic psychologies.

A Trek TNG episode actually brought this out quite well. Can’t remember the title, but the storyline was the Enterprise encountering a race that spoke only in metaphor. Troi makes the observation that we all have a very fundamental similar psychology and perception of the universe, which is why when I can point to myself and say “Fred” you know I’m giving you my name, and not telling you the word for torso. Likewise, ALL humans nod for yes and shake their heads for no, ALL humans smile when happy and cry when sad. ALL humans share the same basic emotions. ALL humans share the same basic psychology. If they didn’t we would never be able to learn a foreign language!

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-20 22:07:02 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Maybe but MAD would still apply in the 24th Century. And the Roms don’t want to be extinct any more than the Feds do.<<

I’m glad you’re not Secretary of Defense :) If I can sneak cloaked missile through your detection grid, you’re wiped out before you knew what hit you. How can you hit back when there’s nothing left to hit with?

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-20 22:17:17 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>><< Surely the Federation would want to cover the whole Neutral zone, right? Well, with as many a 100 ships, that still leaves a LOT of open space for sneaky Romulans to get through.>>

That is why they have outposts and automated sensor probes.That is why they have outposts and automated sensor probes.<<

They must have A LOT of probes and outposts. Let’s assume from the episode where Picard is blocking Romulans with a detection grid that maximum effective range is 100,000 kilometers. That means you would need 94,608,000 outposts per light year. We know the Federation is at least 1500 light years across since they talk about Orion as being in the Federation. That gives us a perimeter of 7,068,583 square light years for a total of 6.68 x 10^14 outposts!! Even if you assume 1000 light years between outposts, you are still looking at about 7 thousand outposts.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-20 22:23:02 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Try two words: Laundry List.<<

A whole sentence: It was a Laundry List without the Budget.

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-20 23:22:21 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Voxlumina,

I was refering to law-abding members of the Federation and Starfleet, The bad guys in that esp of DS9 were terrorists and not reflective of most members of the Federation.

JJC III
Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 01:25:56 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>(in case you have not noticed, the whole Borg thing was an allusion to the diffreces bewteen societies which respect individual rights, and those who put the well-being of the state first.)<<

Which one are we, again?
Never mind other societies – it’s a good analysis of the struggle reaching a head over the past three or four decades in our own.
“It does not take a village to raise a child, it takes a FAMILY.”

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 01:29:52 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<But, we are beginning to stray off the path. My original contention was that Trek writing for TNG, VOY and DS9 is poor writing, not because of the storylines, but because of technical incompetence. Plot flaws, contradictions, impossibilities, “deu ex machine” elements, inconsistencies.>>

Which is why I liked the rumors about “All Good Things” at first… back when it looked like the entire series would turn out to be a simulation/test being run by Q on our heroes.
Great opportunity missed there. Would’ve explained a lot. As would the episode of Voyager where Voyager nearly turned out to be a simulation being run by Barclay and the Doc. That would’ve explained so many things… I personally think they should have help off that ep and ended the series that way. (Would’ve meant delaying it, what, a year?)

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 01:34:15 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<OK, now which reaction is more believable, the Federation council rolling over like puppies at such a flagrant violation of civil liberties, or the Earth senate and colonies reactions, of contesting the decision.>>

Added to which, B5 built up to that for 2.5 seasons – we saw earth culture increasingly cowed and crushed beneath the weight of well-meaning regulations, etc. (Gee, no lesson here) Whereas on Trek, the Federation was happily pursuing its human-nature-defying cultural utopia when all of a sudden, wham, the planet rolled over and cooperated. (All except for one plucky restaurant owner with a history of plotting to kill Federation presidents…)

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 01:37:06 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<If Clinton declared martial law tommorrow, we’d have civil war on Thursday unless congress and the people in general agreed. Unless of course you have an unarmed citizenry, in which case you may have a point>>

You’re scaring me, Matter…

(Like a man subordinates everything to an ongoing campaign intends EVER to leave office…)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 01:41:30 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>But they can be detected by how they ACT. If they tried to turn the Federation into a dictator ship, then people would know that that person was a changling. That is why the did not take over the Federation’s government, but the Klingons instead.<<
Gee, looked to me like Leighton came pretty close. Those Changelings give up too easily.
And what, then, was their offering to make Sisko dictator of the Federation all about? (I stand by my statement that that was the one believable strategic decision they made, instead of all this corny paranoia stuff.)
Sisko should played along. Of course, I said the same thing in “Flash Gordon”

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-21 01:45:52 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<they talk about Orion as being in the Federation.>>

Is Orion actually IN the Federation? They practice slavery, fer crying out loud.
Course I always thought those green women weren’t sentient (at least until Batgirl popped up as one). That’d explain why a nice guy like Pike was thinking of becoming a trader.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 03:29:49 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Your analogy is like saying I’m not really an individual, my cells are the true individuals, I’m nothing more than a social grouping. Sorry, I don’t buy it.>>

But that is the way your brain works. You sence of self is no more that the constant flux of energy bewteen your billions of brain-cells.
A Borg cube is made up of tens of thousands of Borg “cells”, and those cells interface to form the collective, and on a higher level the numerous Borg cubes act as brain cells for the entire Borg race. This large mind is a slow thinker due to the limits on the speed of it’s connections bewteen Borg cubes.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 03:34:44 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<So instead the Federation, already present by your admission, just ignores a major new potential threat to their security because, of course, the universe is just a lovey-dovey place and if there is any trouble, all we have to do is talk to them about how wonderful and peaceful and advanced we are. They’ll then slap their corrugated foreheads and say: “What in the world were we thinking to ever want to fight with you? We just didn’t understand how wonderful peace is. Let’s all get together in a big circle and sing Kumbaya!”>>

They did not know of a major threat from the Delta-quad untill “The Jem’Hadar”, of course they were short sited but most governments tend to be that way; just as the US caused itself a problem by supporting Sadamn Hussain’s military build-up prior to the Gulf War.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 03:40:31 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The way you make things clear is to rationalize and fabricate to plug holes in things that were never even remotely discussed.>>

But they were discussed, you just did not “get it”.

<<And, you’re beginning to contradict yourself. In the post you responded to, you had specifically stated that many of these inconsistencies would no doubt be addressed in the next movie. Thus my reaction. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim all inconsistencies have been addressed and then turn around and say they will be addressed.>>

Some of your “inconsistancies” will probaly be cleared up, however I am sure that you Trek haters will make up new ones.

<<But, we are beginning to stray off the path. My original contention was that Trek writing for TNG, VOY and DS9 is poor writing, not because of the storylines, but because of technical incompetence. Plot flaws, contradictions, impossibilities, “deu ex machine” elements, inconsistencies. All of these are technical aspects of good writing. If you don’t follow them, the writing is by definition poor. I’ve demonstrated that sufficiently to satisfy any English professor (and since I write professionally for a living, I should know). If you choose not to accept it, that of course is your choice.>>

Funny how you leave out TOS on your list of shows w/ poor writing, It had more of those “bad” things you listed than DS9 does.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 03:44:35 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Sorry, but my memory is not that good. You’ll have to include more of the original post and response for me to remember exactly what we were talking about on this post. I don’t have time to go back over the posts of the last few days and try to find it.>>

You said that I was just speculating that no Borg had left the collective and came back before “I’Borg”, however Hugh clearly stated that no-one had ever left the collective.
Before you jump up-and-down yelling “inconsistancy”, you must remember that Picard was still considered a Borg by Hugh.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 03:53:22 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Good grief! which way do you want it! I try to say something simple like “believability” and you jump all over me for being obscure. So I try to explain what I mean and you jump all over me for being too blunt. And of course I am talking about the Trek episode. This thread started because someone made the point that certain Trek plot lines were as ridiculous as the St Elmo’s fire or whatever it was, all being a dream.>>

In your paragraph all you really did was say that something had to be believable, but like I said, belivability is purely subjective.

<<You really need to work on your analogies. The Bible is a work that purports to be true. We are discussing works of fiction, where both the reader and writer know the story is a pure fabrication. The two situations are completely different. Readers of fiction will accept anything the writer presents to him as long as the rational is logical and adheres to common principles of reason. Trek fails to do either in many instances, another example of bad writing.>>

What you might not understand is that the analogy does work because “belivability” is just as important in non-fiction, as in fiction. The Bible is full of impossabilities, holes and inconsistancies but it is still “believed” by almost 90% of this country. Therefore the analogy shows the “belivability” is purely subjective.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 03:58:42 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<OK, now which reaction is more believable, the Federation council rolling over like puppies at such a flagrant violation of civil liberties, or the Earth senate and colonies reactions, of contesting the decision.>>

But in the Earth situation, everyone WANTED martial-law, It was not untill Leighton was discoved as the one who commited the sabotage that civil war became possible.

<<Besides, my initial point still stands. Debate was held before the declaration by Cisko, Leighton and a few others. Where was the Federation council on this one? Presidents don’t just declaring martial law without support from the legislative body or you are asking for a civil war. Just like what happened in B5.>>

You are forgetting the black-out. The President declared martial law minutes after the blackout and had no time to discuss it w/ the council. He thought an invasion force was on it’s way.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Dream endings
Date: 96-08-21 12:34:46 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

<<Which is why I liked the rumors about “All Good Things” at first… back when it looked like the entire series would turn out to be a simulation/test being run by Q on our heroes.>>

I dunno. That would stretch credibility even for Trek.

The “It was only a dream!” ending has worked well twice: “The Wizard of Oz” and the last episode of “Newhart”.

Bad writing is one thing, but a total copout…

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 17:04:58 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Funny how you leave out TOS on your list of shows w/ poor writing, It had more of those “bad” things you listed than DS9 does.>>
But TOS’s pretensions were MUCH lower than TNG or DS9. It didn’t pretend to have any continuity to speak of between elements and was written closer to a level of Hercules or Xena than the newer Treks.
Added to which, it was (like Herc and Xena) FUN. You can forgive a show a lot when it entertains you. TNG was more concerned with preeching, most of the time. (Not that TOS didn’t have offenders in this department too, but you did your time, watched’em, and waited for next week’s Kirk-bashes-the-alien-and-gets-the-girl.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 17:09:35 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The Bible is full of impossabilities, holes and inconsistancies but it is still “believed” by almost 90% of this country.>>
The Bible has nothing on Trek. And a lot of its so-called impossibilities are only such if you presuppose modern ways of thinking – there’s little internal inconsistency (certainly nothing as flagrant as changing a person from officer to non-com or changing sexes), just a lot of stuff you can’t buy if you bow at the feet of modern science (people who’re trying to tell us, after all, that the planet’s getting warmer in blatant defiance of the statistics, and that Deoxyribonucleic Acid evolved independently on two planets right next to each other – you wanna talk plot holes, inconsistencies, impossibilities – just read the paper sometime – you can leave your religious prejudices out of it. They bored us in the first post.)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 19:18:46 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Deoxyribonucleic Acid evolved independently on two planets right next to each other ->>

I guess you are refering to the mars “bacteria”. For one they have not even done a chemical test to see if they are even based on DNA similar to ours, if in fact they are, then that would tend to show that one of the plantets contaminated the other long ago. We may all be martians!
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 19:20:58 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< And a lot of its so-called impossibilities are only such if you presuppose modern ways of thinking – there’s little internal inconsistency >>

Two seperate creation stories, and two completely diffrent geneologies for Jesus. Oh, no inconsistancies there. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:whatever…
Date: 96-08-21 20:50:16 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> Is Orion actually IN the Federation? They practice slavery, fer crying out loud.
Course I always thought those green women weren’t sentient (at least until Batgirl popped up as one). That’d explain why a nice guy like Pike was thinking of becoming a trader.<<

Yeah, you’ve got a point there. We can use the Rigel colonies to help determine Trek boundaries.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 20:51:10 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>But that is the way your brain works. You sence of self is no more that the constant flux of energy bewteen your billions of brain-cells.
A Borg cube is made up of tens of thousands of Borg “cells”, and those cells interface to form the collective, and on a higher level the numerous Borg cubes act as brain cells for the entire Borg race. This large mind is a slow thinker due to the limits on the speed of it’s connections bewteen Borg cubes.<<

Then each collective IS an individual, by your definition. This is getting old.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 20:53:14 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Some of your “inconsistancies” will probaly be cleared up, however I am sure that you Trek haters will make up new ones.<<

I don’t recall ever saying I hate Trek, I hate the writing in the TNG, DS9 and VOY, but I take every chance I can get to watch the classic episodes.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 20:55:50 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Funny how you leave out TOS on your list of shows w/ poor writing, It had more of those “bad” things you listed than DS9 does.<<

On the contrary. The old Trek shows had some of the best SF writing I’ve ever seen, barring a few annoying scientific nonsensical like orbits that decay without continual power.

I cut TNG and the newer stuff a lot less slack on science because of their asinine insistence on regressing to 1930s technobabble style of writing.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-21 20:57:26 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>You said that I was just speculating that no Borg had left the collective and came back before “I’Borg”, however Hugh clearly stated that no-one had ever left the collective.
Before you jump up-and-down yelling “inconsistancy”, you must remember that Picard was still considered a Borg by Hugh.<<

Oh, OK. One inconsistency eliminated by the creation of a multitude of others (Borg as collective, as not-collective, as groups of collectives-that-are-not-individuals, etc., etc. ad nauseum).

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 20:59:11 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>What you might not understand is that the analogy does work because “belivability” is just as important in non-fiction, as in fiction. The Bible is full of impossabilities, holes and inconsistancies but it is still “believed” by almost 90% of this country. Therefore the analogy shows the “belivability” is purely subjective.<<

Sorry, your analogy is flawed, there is a fundemental difference between beleiving something that purports to be true and something that both parties know is a work of fiction. If you want a better explanation, I suggest you take some courses or read some texts on writing fiction.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 21:02:02 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>> The Bible has nothing on Trek. And a lot of its so-called impossibilities are only such if you presuppose modern ways of thinking – there’s little internal inconsistency (certainly nothing as flagrant as changing a person from officer to non-com or changing sexes), just a lot of stuff you can’t buy if you bow at the feet of modern science (people who’re trying to tell us, after all, that the planet’s getting warmer in blatant defiance of the statistics, and that Deoxyribonucleic Acid evolved independently on two planets right next to each other – you wanna talk plot holes, inconsistencies, impossibilities – just read the paper sometime – you can leave your religious prejudices out of it. They bored us in the first post.)<<

Well said. I didn’t respond in kind because I didn’t want to totally take this board off-message (all I’d have to do is tell your my personal religious affiliation and we’d see all kinds of fantastic responses. There, I’ll leave you all wondering :) )

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 21:08:27 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>I guess you are refering to the mars “bacteria”. For one they have not even done a chemical test to see if they are even based on DNA similar to ours, if in fact they are, then that would tend to show that one of the plantets contaminated the other long ago. We may all be martians!<<

Boy, can I tell you watch a lot of Trek, you just threw science out the window. In order for an organism to leave “organic” residue recognizable as the byproducts of living metabolism, the creature would HAVE to be based on DNA, otherwise we wouldn’t recognize it as the byproducts of life.

Secondly, DNA is an extremely fragile molecule and wouldn’t last 10 seconds in space being bombarded by solar radiation, cosmic rays and the atomic nuclei of the solar wind. Let alone surviving the massive explosions that would be required to throw them into space at an escape velocity of about 4 miles per second, or the heat of re-entry when they hit earth’s atmosphere at a few hundred miles per second.

Thirdly, if primitive DNA or bacteria or whatever, rained down on Earth from Mars, we’d see it all over the place on the moon, and there is no evidence.

You MAY get away with the material being locked in rocks and meteors, but the chance is extremely remote that they would survive the trip.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-21 21:11:57 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Two seperate creation stories, and two completely diffrent geneologies for Jesus. Oh, no inconsistancies there. :)<<

We’re getting off message, here, but I can’t resist. What two different creation stories?

Secondly, one geneaology is through Joseph, the stepfather, and the second is through Mary, both designed to show the royal lineage of the Savior (Mary and Joseph were cousins). Point of information, if not for the Roman occupation of Israel, Joseph would have been the rightful king by lineage.

Don’t even try this topic, you’ll get beaten up pretty badly. A lot of people a whole lot smarter than you have tried for thousands of years to discredit this work.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 00:02:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Two seperate creation stories, and two completely diffrent geneologies for Jesus. Oh, no inconsistancies there.>>
The geneology thing was beaten to death by Filops back before he was driven away. The creation stories are not contradictory, if you read carefully – Jewish myth (Lilith, for instance) fills in a lot of possible explanations. I suggest you take this over to “B5 and Religion bashing”. While Trek is a religion to many, religion is not Trek.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 00:04:24 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The old Trek shows had some of the best SF writing I’ve ever seen, barring a few annoying scientific nonsensical like orbits that decay without continual power.>>
Well, modern Trek is notorious for violating the time-honored proverb from that ep – “I canna change the laws of physics!”

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 00:05:32 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<you must remember that Picard was still considered a Borg by Hugh.>>
I remain wary of any argument that falls back on something as implausible as Hugh knowing Picard but not knowing he’d been rescued.

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-22 02:00:59 EDT
From: STAR K4597
Posted on: America Online

Matterwave,

>>They didn’t, so why is it “bull” to point that out?

It’s bull because you don’t know why or what went into the decision to change O’brien’s rank, Your assuming it was someone being sloppy with their research when the fact is it could have been just a simple error or even more likely someone making the decision have O’brien character brought over to DS9 for the sake of familarity. So fans would have someone they knew to identify with among all those new characters being introduced. The fact that they made some cosmetic changes that don’t meet with your approval to his rank to advance the story is hardly a big deal.

>>If they were, they would do PROFESSIONAL work and maintain consistency within the character.>>

Just because O’brien rank was changed a bit, Does not mean consistency has been compromised. The fact is O’brien history was established for one show(TNG), So when they moved him to DS9 his history was reworked a bit to fit in better. That does not stretch consistency it moves the story forward and enhances continuity not spoils it.

<<Yeah, no one really cares about professional pride<<

I like details as well as the next guy, But this is to much. Whether O’brien is a noncom or should have one pip or two pips on his collar is just trivial, Please if that’s all you get out of ST maybe it’s just not for you. Being professional or the writers supposed sloppyness has nothing to do with it, It’s giving them enough leeway to tell their stories without getting bogged down in something so trivial. Merchandising isn’t what I watch ST for –Great Characters, Stories and the ST theme is. I don’t need to buy ST merchandise, The stories and themes on DS9 and Voyager are all the enjoyment I need.

>>It is by definition poor writing to deliberately create inconsistencies>>

Where do you get the idea that this was deliberate, These writers who created O’brien never knew he was destined to leave TNG for a spinoff several years down the road. The fact that some DS9 writers may have changed his ranking a bit is not unproffesional, It’s just the character evolving and going in a different direction then they had forseen when he was still on TNG.

<<Yeah, nothing like that has ever happened in human history>>

So, Because the B5 situation mirriors some similarities to some real life situations it should get a pass on some of it’s inconsistencies and instances of bad writing? Is that how it works? B5 can do NO wrong huh. What about Bester finding his lover out of all those telpaths in storage, Seems to be a good case for some inconsistancy in that esp.

<<remember Waco?>>

Waco, Your comparing Starships not firing on their own people without a good reason to Waco, That really seems to be a big stretch. The nuts in Waco had the chance to gave up to the law without any harm coming to any of them when that whole thing started, In fact those people would still be alive if they had come out in the begining instead of what they did do. Which is to burn themselves up and shoot each other.

>>Sheridan and a few others like him will put their careers on the line for what they believe in. That’s why they are heroes.>>

Not all of ST captains are saints or are good at what thay do, Some go nuts and can be just as interesting and belivable as characters on B5. We know that the majority of ST Captains have guts courage and do whatever needs to be done to keep his or her crews save– That’s a hero.

<<Trek is an idealitic utopia.>>

You can’t say that just because ST Captains have a brain and some common sense that they are in some kind of utopia, Because it is just as real to me as you say B5 is to you. It’s just a matter of perspective and perception.

<<Didn’t you see the episode with Mr.Mordan>>
Yes, I saw that episode, But I keep going back to that episode with Arthor in which we see in flashbacks the captain of an Earthgov ship attacking an unknown ship and launching Earth into a War. ST past was like that,Until they grew up. JJCII
Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:01:32 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Then each collective IS an individual, by your definition. This is getting old.>>

Yes, but they had no concept of an individual Borg, anymore than you have a concept of a fully functional independant brian-cell.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:03:34 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<I don’t recall ever saying I hate Trek, I hate the writing in the TNG, DS9 and VOY, but I take every chance I can get to watch the classic episodes.>>

And they had more holes than any other series besides VOY.
“Brain and brain; what is brain?” Great writing there. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:05:43 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<On the contrary. The old Trek shows had some of the best SF writing I’ve ever seen, barring a few annoying scientific nonsensical like orbits that decay without continual power.>>

But they had plot-holes and inconsistancies, I though you hated those. Not to mention it’s “Wonderful” third season.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:08:31 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh, OK. One inconsistency eliminated by the creation of a multitude of others (Borg as collective, as not-collective, as groups of collectives-that-are-not-individuals, etc., etc. ad nauseum).>>

I don’t think they have any inconsistancies on the nature of the Borg, YET. To tell you the truth I don’t trust Brannon Bragga one iota. I just hope that First Contact does not turn into another Generations or “Theshold”

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 04:11:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Sorry, your analogy is flawed, there is a fundemental difference between beleiving something that purports to be true and something that both parties know is a work of fiction. If you want a better explanation, I suggest you take some courses or read some texts on writing fiction.>>

Considering that a lot of the old-testament is considerd to be metaphores for what really happened, then I guess it is fiction. Not even the catholic church considers all of Genisis to be factual.
–AcDec
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 04:21:46 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Boy, can I tell you watch a lot of Trek, you just threw science out the window. In order for an organism to leave “organic” residue recognizable as the byproducts of living metabolism, the creature would HAVE to be based on DNA, otherwise we wouldn’t recognize it as the byproducts of life.>>

Not really, they could be based on something like our DNA, but their should be certain diffrences in many parts of the DNA that has nothing to do w/ it’s metabolism.

<<Secondly, DNA is an extremely fragile molecule and wouldn’t last 10 seconds in space being bombarded by solar radiation, cosmic rays and the atomic nuclei of the solar wind. Let alone surviving the massive explosions that would be required to throw them into space at an escape velocity of about 4 miles per second, or the heat of re-entry when they hit earth’s atmosphere at a few hundred miles per second.>>

We have found bacteria in every single place we have looked on Earth, and their are many scientists including the NASA scientist that stated the “cosmic seeding” theory, and my father who has a PHD in Microbiology, that feel that it would be possible for them to survive. Care to put your bio-credintials agianst their’s?

<<Thirdly, if primitive DNA or bacteria or whatever, rained down on Earth from Mars, we’d see it all over the place on the moon, and there is no evidence.>>

Not all of the metoerites would carry living organisms, and it would only take one w/ them to get the process going. Remember I did not make up this theory, I don’t know all of answers.

<<You MAY get away with the material being locked in rocks and meteors, but the chance is extremely remote that they would survive the trip.>>

It would only take one.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 04:23:39 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<We’re getting off message, here, but I can’t resist. What two different creation stories?

Secondly, one geneaology is through Joseph, the stepfather, and the second is through Mary, both designed to show the royal lineage of the Savior (Mary and Joseph were cousins). Point of information, if not for the Roman occupation of Israel, Joseph would have been the rightful king by lineage.

Don’t even try this topic, you’ll get beaten up pretty badly. A lot of people a whole lot smarter than you have tried for thousands of years to discredit this work.>>

I don’t have all of the reseach w/ me, but to stay on topic I will send it via E-Mail to you when I find it.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 04:25:32 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The geneology thing was beaten to death by Filops back before he was driven away. The creation stories are not contradictory, if you read carefully – Jewish myth (Lilith, for instance) fills in a lot of possible explanations. I suggest you take this over to “B5 and Religion bashing”. While Trek is a religion to many, religion is not Trek.>>

Now who is doing the possible explanations bit. It ok to do it for the Bible, but not for Trek. What a double standerd.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:28:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I remain wary of any argument that falls back on something as implausible as Hugh knowing Picard but not knowing he’d been rescued.>>

Picard was still Locutos when he was rescued, They could not know that he was not a Borg because there was no ship around to report it when it happened. Picard was not re-leased untill the Borg ship exploded.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:52:18 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes, but they had no concept of an individual Borg, anymore than you have a concept of a fully functional independant brian-cell.>>
They’d met individuals – humanoids, things shaped like their Borgettes – things their Borgettes would have been but for the implants. Things like Picard was deep inside all that time he was Locutus and could’ve control his body.
And if you can form the idea of independent brain-cell, surely the Borg can form the idea of an individual Borg… we’ve met a lot fewer independent brain cells than they’d met Borg-shaped individuals. Kinda defeated your own argument here.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:53:44 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<And they had more holes than any other series besides VOY.
“Brain and brain; what is brain?” Great writing there.>>
For every “Brain brain” TOS had, TNG had three or four “____ almost leaves the ship” episodes.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 04:55:24 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< Not to mention it’s “Wonderful” third season.>>
I’ll take “The Turnabout Intruder” over “Planet of T&A and Wesley Killers” anyday… although you’d think a civilization of very attractive promiscuous people who want to kill Wesley would be about as good as it gets.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 15:49:28 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>><< And a lot of its so-called impossibilities are only such if you presuppose modern ways of thinking – there’s little internal inconsistency >>

Two seperate creation stories, and two completely diffrent geneologies for Jesus. Oh, no inconsistancies there. :)<<

Oh god, not a religious debate! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-22 15:58:23 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>>What about Bester finding his lover out of all those telpaths in storage, Seems to be a good case for some inconsistancy in that esp. <<<

WHAT?? That’s not an inconsistancy! That’s a corny coincidence! See, a coincidence is a bad thing if used too many times (B5 comes close to that, but so far it hasn’t had any real honkers of a “Leia’s my sister, Darth’s my dad, etc.” variety), but an inconsistancy is always bad (see ST Voyager, SAAB’s pilot-gropo-engineer-lawyer-shocktroop-gunners, or Generations)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 16:02:15 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>
Now who is doing the possible explanations bit. It ok to do it for the Bible, but not for Trek. What a double standerd.<<

[Looking around cautiously… to another person on the sidelines: “I gotta see this. Who’s your money on?”]

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-22 16:12:32 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> I’ll take “The Turnabout Intruder” over “Planet of T&A and Wesley Killers” anyday… although you’d think a civilization of very attractive promiscuous people who want to kill Wesley would be about as good as it gets.<<

No, Outer Limits had the best Wesley episode… In a Man-Kzin-like war, there is a last-ditch mission to nuke the alien homeworld (I believe with an antimatter bomb the size of a house). First the crew wakes up from the long trip only to be hit by neutron bombs. But Wesley fights the odds determined to be the hero or savior of Earth. Then Wesley is exposed to lethal doses of gamma rays (“Congradulations boy, you’re sterile!”) while attempting to arm the bomb. Robert Patrick, who turns out to be an alien traitor, chases the now vomiting, blistering Wesley through the main engine shaft. Robert Patric takes out the engine before he dies thus shutting off the gravity (Yes, near-total realism in TV SF!). Wesley bounces off walls until he get in position to drop the bomb. Just as the count-down finishes, the ship is boarded. A group of humans runs in shouting that Wesley’s ship is in the wrong spot–Robert Patric had turned the ship around while the crew was hibernating! And Wesley helplessly watches as the bomb falls toward Earth, his “heroic” efforts finally paying off…

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-22 19:00:22 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online
>>It’s bull because you don’t know why or what went into the decision to change O’brien’s rank, Your assuming it was someone being sloppy with their research when the fact is it could have been just a simple error or even more likely someone making the decision have O’brien character brought over to DS9 for the sake of familarity. So fans would have someone they knew to identify with among all those new characters being introduced. The fact that they made some cosmetic changes that don’t meet with your approval to his rank to advance the story is hardly a big deal.<<

How hard would it have been to just explain the drop in rank? O’Brien’s temper/mouth getting him busted down in rank would have been totally believable and in character. Instead, the Berman and Para-mount-the-consumer Merchandizing Machine(BPMM) just blithely acts as if nothing happened…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-22 23:54:15 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

>>Two seperate creation stories, and two completely diffrent geneologies for Jesus. Oh, no inconsistancies there. :)<<

<<We’re getting off message, here, but I can’t resist. What two different creation stories?>>

Issac Asimov wrote a great book about this very subject titled “In the Beginning: Science Faces God in the Book of Genesis” . In this book he explains that Chapter 1 of Genesis relates one version of the Creation Story, while Chapter 2 tells another and both stories are quite different from one another. In chapter 2 the creation of the heavens and marine life is never mentioned and the order of the creation of the different lifeforms on earth is different from one chapter to the next.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-23 05:17:10 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< And if you can form the idea of independent brain-cell, surely the Borg can form the idea of an individual Borg… we’ve met a lot fewer independent brain cells than they’d met Borg-shaped individuals. Kinda defeated your own argument here.>>

They think of themselves as superior, and therefore never thought anyone would ever leave the collective.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-23 05:18:59 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I’ll take “The Turnabout Intruder” over “Planet of T&A and Wesley Killers” anyday… although you’d think a civilization of very attractive promiscuous people who want to kill Wesley would be about as good as it gets.>>

Actually, I would love any episode were someone tries to kill Wesley, I’d nominate one for an emmy if they succeded.

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-23 05:21:15 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< (see ST Voyager, SAAB’s pilot-gropo-engineer-lawyer-shocktroop-gunners, or Generations)>>

You are demening SAAB by putting it in the same post as that waste of an hour-and a half Generations.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-23 05:23:57 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Issac Asimov wrote a great book about this very subject titled “In the Beginning: Science Faces God in the Book of Genesis” . In this book he explains that Chapter 1 of Genesis relates one version of the Creation Story, while Chapter 2 tells another and both stories are quite different from one another. In chapter 2 the creation of the heavens and marine life is never mentioned and the order of the creation of the different lifeforms on earth is different from one chapter to the next. >>

Thank you very much, I did not have time to dig up my Asimov collection.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-23 19:16:37 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Actually, I would love any episode were someone tries to kill Wesley, I’d nominate one for an emmy if they succeded.>>
Would you settle for “Cousin Oliver” getting run over by a car in the new Brady movie? Next best thing.

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-23 20:02:33 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>You are demening SAAB by putting it in the same post as that waste of an hour-and a half Generations.<<

Sorry.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-23 23:09:26 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< We have not seen the last of the Borg yet, they will probaly address some of these “issues”. Also remeber that they only have 45 minutes to tell a story they can’t explain EVERYTHING, thats why I’m here.

–AcDec >>

So, you speak for all of Star Trek officially? You make it sound like you have some great deal of knowledge and official capacity to explain all “apparent” inconsistencies and fill in all “apparent” plot holes. Isn’t this just a little self-aggrandizing?
Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-23 23:16:03 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< By calling the Federation a federation, they therfore tell us the basic layout of the government (hint: a federal government). >>

This is a bunch of hogwash. You might as well say that every country that calls itself “The People’s Democratic Republic of <whatever>” is a representative government that is run by all the people at large — when, in fact, many such countries that are named in this way are socialist dictatorships. Don’t read too much into what people CALL something. Look at what they DO, how they ACT, what they ACCOMPLISH.

To connect all this to B5, let me refer you to the episode “Voices of Authority,” which just recently repeated. Do you recall the EarthGov “political advisor” and all of her rationales for why there was no more poverty, racial bigotry, crime, homelessness? They merely changed the definitions in the dictionary, and all the problems went away — there was nothing to embarrass the “sainted” leaders of Earth Government. Certainly, you don’t think this discussion was made up out of nothing, do you? Just listen to the management of any American corporation talk about “rightsizing” and “employee empowerment” if you don’t want to consider all the lying governments out in the world!
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-23 23:37:17 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Boy, can I tell you watch a lot of Trek, you just threw science out the window. In order for an organism to leave “organic” residue recognizable as the byproducts of living metabolism, the creature would HAVE to be based on DNA, otherwise we wouldn’t recognize it as the byproducts of life. >>

Clearly, fossilized trees (“petrified forests”) show evidence of life, even though the original materials from which the trees were made has long since been supplanted by mineral deposits. Not an ounce of DNA, protein, lipids, etc. remains. Yet I have never seen anyone seriously argue that there were never living, growing trees involved.

MatterWave, If this is your argument against life on Mars, try again.
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-23 23:52:25 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Clearly, fossilized trees (“petrified forests”) show evidence of life, even though the original materials from which the trees were made has long since been supplanted by mineral deposits. Not an ounce of DNA, protein, lipids, etc. remains. Yet I have never seen anyone seriously argue that there were never living, growing trees involved.>>
But his point is that there was ONCE DNA – and that the evidence of life is, ipso facto, evidence that DNA was once present. (Else what on earth could we possibly mean by “once alive”?) I don’t think he meant to suggest that DNA is STILL present. (That would be such a stretch from what we really seem to have in this rock that has signs of something that apparently happens, among other things, when life is present and maybe came from Mars.)

Subj: Re: Delenn’s voice
Date: 96-08-23 23:57:32 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Sorry, Matter, I realize that wasn’t clear. JMS rejected the “male” voice when they were just playing with the possibility, before they filmed the pilot. She is definitely feminine in the movie.

Sherry

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-24 01:43:34 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Would you settle for “Cousin Oliver” getting run over by a car in the new Brady movie? Next best thing.>>

That may just make me go see that movie. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-24 01:45:54 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<So, you speak for all of Star Trek officially? You make it sound like you have some great deal of knowledge and official capacity to explain all “apparent” inconsistencies and fill in all “apparent” plot holes. Isn’t this just a little self-aggrandizing?>>

I did not think that I needed to be an official of Paramount to post on these boards, I’m just saying what I make of these episodes and point out some things you may have missed.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-24 01:49:09 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<This is a bunch of hogwash. You might as well say that every country that calls itself “The People’s Democratic Republic of <whatever>” is a representative government that is run by all the people at large — when, in fact, many such countries that are named in this way are socialist dictatorships. Don’t read too much into what people CALL something. Look at what they DO, how they ACT, what they ACCOMPLISH.>>

But you forget that the show has given many clues to how the Federation is set up and it matches up w/ a federal government. Also, I remember a TOS episode “Court Martial” were I’m pretty sure the said the Fed was based in part on the U.S. constitution.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-24 01:52:48 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But his point is that there was ONCE DNA – and that the evidence of life is, ipso facto, evidence that DNA was once present. (Else what on earth could we possibly mean by “once alive”?) I don’t think he meant to suggest that DNA is STILL present. (That would be such a stretch from what we really seem to have in this rock that has signs of something that apparently happens, among other things, when life is present and maybe came from Mars.)>>

Yes, but just because life on earth is based on DNA it does not mean that life on another planet will be. If extra-terristrials use or used DNA to store genetic info then if they evolved on another planet there would be major diffrences in some of the DNA coding that would give that away.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-24 23:30:49 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Issac Asimov wrote a great book about this very subject titled “In the Beginning: Science Faces God in the Book of Genesis” . In this book he explains that Chapter 1 of Genesis relates one version of the Creation Story, while Chapter 2 tells another and both stories are quite different from one another. In chapter 2 the creation of the heavens and marine life is never mentioned and the order of the creation of the different lifeforms on earth is different from one chapter to the next. <<

You know, Asimov never could get it when he was talking about religion; he was too fanatic an atheist and it colored all his thinking. He often wrote lengthy essays on writing styles and techniques including changes in POV and editing of details and story elements that were non-necessary to points being discussed or taught. He also often went into massive criticism about fundamentalists who took everything literally in the Bible. And here he goes and blows all that out his left nostril when he compares chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis. Any idiot can see chapter 2 is a recap of chapter 1 with the main focus being the preparation of the Earth for Adam and mankind and the illustration of his dominion over it. We’ve already been taught the creation, there is no need to go over the whole thing again, only those points that illustrate the doctrine that Moses was attempting to teach, namely that the Earth is created for Man and he has been given dominion over it. Sheesh, the gnats people will strain at.

Anyhow, sorry this has gotten off-message. Let’s keep any further discussion of this to e-mail, OK?

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-24 23:42:36 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Clearly, fossilized trees (“petrified forests”) show evidence of life, even though the original materials from which the trees were made has long since been supplanted by mineral deposits. Not an ounce of DNA, protein, lipids, etc. remains. Yet I have never seen anyone seriously argue that there were never living, growing trees involved.

MatterWave, If this is your argument against life on Mars, try again.<<

I’m not arguing against life on Mars, I’m comenting on the statement made that Mars life doesn’t use the same DNA as Earth life. The scientists contending the meteor they found contains life from Mars are using chemical residues in the rock to substantiate their claim. In order for this residue to be recognizable as such, it would have to be the byproduct of chiemical processes similar to those foud in life on Earth. Since living processes are governed by DNA, the DNA must be the same. For pure evolutionists, this presents some problems.

Another person then made the comment that maybe we were colonized by spores from Mars, which I said was pretty unlikely considering the harsh environments involved. He then threw a bunch of letters at me like PhD and Microbiology, which of course doesn’t mean anything. I’ve known too many PhD’s who’ve been wrong about too many things. I’ve also little tolerance for elite-types who think because you have a bunch of letters after your name and I don’t you’re smart and I’m ignorant.

Subj: Re: Delenn’s voice
Date: 96-08-24 23:43:42 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Sorry, Matter, I realize that wasn’t clear. JMS rejected the “male” voice when they were just playing with the possibility, before they filmed the pilot. She is definitely feminine in the movie.

Sherry<<

Thanks for the clarification.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-24 23:47:52 EDT
From: MatterWave
Posted on: America Online

>>Yes, but just because life on earth is based on DNA it does not mean that life on another planet will be. If extra-terristrials use or used DNA to store genetic info then if they evolved on another planet there would be major diffrences in some of the DNA coding that would give that away.

–AcDec<<

AAAAGGGHHHH!

The whole point here is that unless you have Earth DNA, you are not going to recognize any chemical residue as being definitely the result of life. More specifically, you are not going to claim that the residue you find is the byproduct of bacterial metabolism unless your bacteria have Earth DNA!

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-24 23:53:12 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<But you forget that the show has given many clues to how the Federation is set up and it matches up w/ a federal government. Also, I remember a TOS episode “Court Martial” were I’m pretty sure the said the Fed was based in part on the U.S. constitution.>>
*And as I’ve shown, the Federation is anything but a strong form of gov’t with a central authority that could really get things done. (Maybe the Klingons were right in ST:6 in charging that the Federation is really an earth empire – 150 worlds and who effectively runs Starfleet?) Half the time the Federation is portrayed as just “earth, its colony worlds, and a few suckers clinging to our coat-tails”, the other half it’s portrayed as a loose confederation of worlds with nothing in common that Earth, for some reason, defends. (Probably something to do with money… No, wait, the Feds don’t have that anymore, yes they do, no they don’t, yes they do…)

*Sam wasn’t saying that the Federation was based on the U.S. Constitution – only that, like the U.S. Constitution and many other documents, Federation law granted certain unalienable (sic) rights to an individual – notably the right to confront his accuser (except when that accuser might be somehow “given a trauma”, if our country’s any example). Sam also mentioned the Code of Hammurabi, and while it’d be a much more interesting show if *that* were enforced…

Subj: Ok, last time…
Date: 96-08-25 00:02:29 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Yes, but just because life on earth is based on DNA it does not mean that life on another planet will be.>>
Scientists talk about “life” on Mars. With all due respect to Trek, which seems to say that anything capable of saying or printing out in recognizable English, “I think therefore I am” is “alive” (guess that eliminates trees), the scientific definition of life is and must be that which contains DNA (viruses being the big area of semantic dispute – DNA but not a celluar organism). If there is anything “alive” in any other sense of the word on Mars, scientists would not be talking about it. You might just as well argue that these moon rocks prove there’s silicon-based life on the Moon. Whatever was found is either nonsense or points to something recognizably like earth life. If it isn’t enough like earth life to be based on DNA, what POSSIBLE frame of reference could we have for concluding that there is evidence of “life”? Exection? Reproduction? Pull the other one. That’d sound to me like the modern equivalent of the wags who way back when thought crystal formations showed signs of being alive.

<<If extra-terristrials use or used DNA to store genetic info then if they evolved on another planet there would be major diffrences in some of the DNA coding that would give that away.>>
DNA is an extremely complicated molecule and no one is telling me that it evolved independently on two neighboring planets. I have infinitely more respect for the (currently laughed at, for obvious reasons) scientists who are suggesting that Mars seeded earth with life.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 00:05:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<You know, Asimov never could get it when he was talking about religion>>
Asimov’s the ideal example of a man who thinks that being an expert on one thing makes you an expert on everything. (Scientists are REALLY not at their best when they attempt philosophy – just look at how the uncertainty principle, stating that we cannot observe past a certain precision both the speed and position of a particle, evolved through junk science into “there is no objective reality to find”)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 00:09:43 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<you are not going to claim that the residue you find is the byproduct of bacterial metabolism unless your bacteria have Earth DNA!>>
More to the point, Matter, would there not be SERIOUS taxonomical problems with calling something “bacteria” if it didn’t have deoxyribonucleic acid? (Sorry to spell it out, but unless you do some people seem to think that we can talk about our kind of DNA and their kind of DNA)
“This is a cat but it’s made of stone” Sorry. Meaningless.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 03:40:33 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Since living processes are governed by DNA, the DNA must be the same. For pure evolutionists, this presents some problems.>>

How? And no DNA is not the only genetic material. RNA is suspected to have come before the more complex DNA, and something simpler than RNA was probaly used before that. There is no reason that organsims from Mars may have used a genetic coding meathod other than DNA.

<<Another person then made the comment that maybe we were colonized by spores from Mars, which I said was pretty unlikely considering the harsh environments involved. He then threw a bunch of letters at me like PhD and Microbiology, which of course doesn’t mean anything. I’ve known too many PhD’s who’ve been wrong about too many things. I’ve also little tolerance for elite-types who think because you have a bunch of letters after your name and I don’t you’re smart and I’m ignorant.>>

Well obviously you are ignorant when it comes to the surviabilty of microbes. Bacteria trapped in amber survived for 100 million years. Bacteria are found everywere on Earth including places so hot that paper combusts.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 03:49:00 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<The whole point here is that unless you have Earth DNA, you are not going to recognize any chemical residue as being definitely the result of life.>>

The chemical residue is not the only thing they have for proof.

<< More specifically, you are not going to claim that the residue you find is the byproduct of bacterial metabolism unless your bacteria have Earth DNA!>>

Metabolism is just basic chemestry, and the basic laws of chemestry don’t change from planet to planet. DNA is just the instuctions on how to perform those chemical reactions. You can have organisms from diffrent planets that metabolize similar material, but use a diffrent kind of instruction book.
The only way to find out if the Mars organisms are based on DNA would be if they can get some live specimans. If these are really bacteria then most likley they are still allive underground, and we should send a sample return mission as soon as possible.

–AcDec.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 03:57:45 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< If these are really bacteria then most likley they are still allive underground, and we should send a sample return mission as soon as possible.>>
Ah, bottom line. Anyone else catching on now? Can you spell HOAX?
If these really are bacteria, then they have the same genetic code as bacteria. Bacteria have DNA. Like all other things that are alive. There really are only so many ways to say this. What exactly do they claim they’ve found if not something with genetic material? There may indeed be other methods of genetic coding… but if it’s not sufficiently like DNA and RNA to be a astronomically improbable of evolving on the next planet over, it would not give rise to anything we would recognize as life.
There could also be life on the sun in some Star-Trekian sense of the word life, but I doubt it’d pass any scientific definition of what we call life.

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-25 04:00:17 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< *And as I’ve shown, the Federation is anything but a strong form of gov’t with a central authority that could really get things done. (Maybe the Klingons were right in ST:6 in charging that the Federation is really an earth empire – 150 worlds and who effectively runs Starfleet?)>>

The worst governments are the ones w/ a strong central power structure. All that the Federation government seems to do is handle foreign affiars, maintain Starfleet, Terraforming, and have a money supply. The reason the Fed stays together is because humans don’t but into Vulcan affiars, Vulcans don’t but into Bolian affiars etc.
<< Half the time the Federation is portrayed as just “earth, its colony worlds, and a few suckers clinging to our coat-tails”>>

And when exactly is this?

<< the other half it’s portrayed as a loose confederation of worlds with nothing in common that Earth, for some reason, defends. (Probably something to do with money… No, wait, the Feds don’t have that anymore, yes they do, no they don’t, yes they do…)>>

What do you mean Earth defends? It has been made very clear that Earth does not rule the Federation. Earth is only the sight of it’s capital and the headquaters of Starfleet. The Federation was created in the aftermath of the Earth-Romulan war, and based on the way the Gov. is set up, it was probaly Earths idea.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Ok, last time…
Date: 96-08-25 04:14:37 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< the scientific definition of life is and must be that which contains DNA (viruses being the big area of semantic dispute – DNA but not a celluar organism). If there is anything “alive” in any other sense of the word on Mars, scientists would not be talking about it. You might just as well argue that these moon rocks prove there’s silicon-based life on the Moon. Whatever was found is either nonsense or points to something recognizably like earth life. If it isn’t enough like earth life to be based on DNA, what POSSIBLE frame of reference could we have for concluding that there is evidence of “life”? Exection? Reproduction? Pull the other one. That’d sound to me like the modern equivalent of the wags who way back when thought crystal formations showed signs of being alive.>>

Since when is life defined as being based on DNA. One of the most common definitions (although all scientists cannot agree on a definition of life) is that somthing that is alive must consume, grow, excrete, and reproduce. It is true that life on Earth is based on DNA but that is just a result of natural selection. I don’t know of many scientists that think the first life on Earth was based on DNA.
<< DNA is an extremely complicated molecule and no one is telling me that it evolved independently on two neighboring planets. I have infinitely more respect for the (currently laughed at, for obvious reasons) scientists who are suggesting that Mars seeded earth with life.>>
DNA is just another chemical, there is nothing really special about it other than it is very good at storeing genetic info. And DNA did not magiclly spring into existance on Earth, most scientists believe that the first life forms were based on a much simpler genetic storage medium. Through the process of natural selection DNA as we know it finally came about and it is so good at it’s job that the more “primitive” organisms could not compete and died out. Considering the age and size of these Martian bacteria (if that is what they are) they may be an example of these primitive organisms.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 04:18:40 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Asimov’s the ideal example of a man who thinks that being an expert on one thing makes you an expert on everything. (Scientists are REALLY not at their best when they attempt philosophy – just look at how the uncertainty principle, stating that we cannot observe past a certain precision both the speed and position of a particle, evolved through junk science into “there is no objective reality to find”)>>

Asimov made sure that he looked at everything in life, he studied science, history, economics etc. He was like Picard on TNG, he loved learning anything he could. And in the second part are you saying that the uncertainty principal is “junk science”?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 04:27:41 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< More to the point, Matter, would there not be SERIOUS taxonomical problems with calling something “bacteria” if it didn’t have deoxyribonucleic acid?>>
That’s funny, I was under the impression that they had not classified this organism yet (in fact it has not been proven that they are anything more than dried mud). These “organisms” LOOK LIKE bateria, but there are a few major problems, the most notable being that they are far smaller than any Earth bacteria. In fact the term bacteria is really not very specific at all, it just refers to tiny one-celled organisms w/o any membrane bound organelles. The Martian bactera would probaly still fit that definition, and they would probaly be classified as nano-bacteria due to their very small size.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 04:39:06 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Ah, bottom line. Anyone else catching on now? Can you spell HOAX?>>

If it was a hoax then why would they give their findings for peer review? If it was a hoax some independant scientist will find out and all of these people’s carriers would be ruined.

<< If these really are bacteria, then they have the same genetic code as bacteria. Bacteria have DNA. Like all other things that are alive.>>
All other things CURRENTLY alive have DNA, but most likley life did not start out w/ DNA, and since these fossils are from about the same time life first formed on Earth they are probaly not based on DNA either.

<< There really are only so many ways to say this. What exactly do they claim they’ve found if not something with genetic mate rial? There may indeed be other methods of genetic coding… but if it’s not sufficiently like DNA and RNA to be a astronomically improbable of evolving on the next planet over, it would not give rise to anything we would recognize as life.>>

If these are bacteria then they are probaly much more primative than the bacteria currently on Earth. The reason that they look similar to Earth bacteria is because the evolved on a planet much like Earth, and they “ate” basicly the same food.

<<There could also be life on the sun in some Star-Trekian sense of the word life, but I doubt it’d pass any scientific definition of what we call life.>>

I seriously doubt that, the Sun is way to hot, and has no water.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 10:32:46 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Hi guys, fill me in on, I am too lazy to go back through a months worth of constant posting.

CRC

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 19:37:56 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<And in the second part are you saying that the uncertainty principal is “junk science”?>>
No, I stated what the uncertainty principle was. Proven. I took Quantum Physics and Relativity Theory – I’ve seen the mathematical proofs and I buy them. Q.E.D. But the problem is that scientists and, more importantly, people who “follow” science, then started babbling on about the philosophical implications of the Uncertainty Principle, and now it’s a widespread “belief” that this is what the UP really means. Reality Check: THERE ARE NO PHILOSOPHICAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE UP. There are no philosophical implications to most scientific discoveries. Scientists should stick to science. Real science.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 19:45:30 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<If it was a hoax then why would they give their findings for peer review? If it was a hoax some independant scientist will find out and all of these people’s carriers would be ruined.>>
History is filled with examples of “objective science” that passed every test by the “scientific community” mainly because the scientists had already made up their minds that it was true. Scientific “truths” that could have, with contemporary knowledge and an open mind, been disproved decades or centuries before they actually were: Piltdown man, Aristotlean astronomy and physics, the existence of meteorites, the “flat earth”, global warming, the new ice age, and on and on. The scientific community always has a habit of being very lax in its acceptance of ideas it doesn’t like and in its cross-examination of ideas it likes. This is going to be even more true in today’s age than it has been, because professional integrity is going out the window these days, or hadn’t you noticed. Individual scientists these days care mainly about publishing papers for acceptance… and they all know what theories sell.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-25 23:46:17 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The scientific community always has a habit of being very lax in its acceptance of ideas it doesn’t like and in its cross-examination of ideas it likes. This is going to be even more true in today’s age than it has been, because professional integrity is going out the window these days, or hadn’t you noticed. Individual scientists these days care mainly about publishing papers for acceptance… and they all know what theories sell.>>

But what you don’t understand is that most of the “scientific community” is very skeptical about this “bacteria”, heck NASA even brought out a serious skeptic when they had their first news conference. Not what you would want to do if you want to have a succesfull hoax.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-26 01:38:28 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<But what you don’t understand is that most of the “scientific community” is very skeptical about this “bacteria”, heck NASA even brought out a serious skeptic when they had their first news conference.>>
Yes, I saw this scientist’s soundbyte and I have a lot of respect for him. All the others mugging for the camera, and especially the reporting of the discovery, was slanted VERY differently. I think this is a case of where the scientists should have just kept their mouths shut until they knew for certain. Coming out with the wild possibility that it just might, might mean life, which before many days has turned into “probably” was irresposible and showed a complete lack of integrity. The scientific community is NOT this stupid… they knew full well the spin the press would put on this. Which means they’ve been manipulating the press for their own fame or funding. Therein lies the hoax – not a deliberate fraud (I’m sorry if I implied this) but something more subtle – throwing out something that might be true (in nearly the “anything might be true” sense of the word) just to get their fifteen minutes or fifteen thousand.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-26 10:53:51 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

“< but what you don’t understand is that most of the “scientific community” is very skeptical about this “bacteria” >

This may be nothing more than semantics, but I have to disagree with this statement. I am not certain where you saw the “scientific community” polled on this issue, but my understanding from statements by physicists/astro-biologists at the University of Colorado and the US Center for Atmospheric Sciences is that the majority of those scientists believe the evidence found in the Mars asteroid is “compelling” proof of the existence of life, but not necessarily “convincing” proof. The same statements indicated that the majority of these scientists favor the solution that life existed on Mars (i.e. they were not “skeptical” at all), but because at least one alternative test on the rock in 1995-96 did not conform to the existence of paleontolgical microbiological specimens, and because the other positive tests themselves contain indeterminant levels of error, no one can say conclusively that there is proof of life. However, as I indicated, the majority of these physicists did have an enormous amount of confidence in the degree of scientific accuracy of the testing mechanisms, and therefore believe the proof is “compelling.” Bear in mind, the information originally was supposed to be first revealed in a scientific journal subject to peer review, and that approach was only undermined due to press leaks which forced NASA to explain their findings at preliminary press conferences. This clearly was not their intended course, and the level of scientific precision involved has not been challenged even by those physicists who admit they are unwilling to sign off on the conclusions drawn from the testing. The “skeptical” Cal Tech physicist who I believe you were referring to did not state that he believed none of the evidence pointed to life on Mars, and instead reiterated that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to warrant such a conclusion absent additional sampling of Martian soil samples (which, obviously, cannot be accomodated at present).

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-27 00:43:29 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Yes, I saw this scientist’s soundbyte and I have a lot of respect for him. All the others mugging for the camera, and especially the reporting of the discovery, was slanted VERY differently. I think this is a case of where the scientists should have just kept their mouths shut until they knew for certain. Coming out with the wild possibility that it just might, might mean life, which before many days has turned into “probably” was irresposible and showed a complete lack of integrity. The scientific community is NOT this stupid… they knew full well the spin the press would put on this. Which means they’ve been manipulating the press for their own fame or funding. Therein lies the hoax – not a deliberate fraud (I’m sorry if I implied this) but something more subtle – throwing out something that might be true (in nearly the “anything might be true” sense of the word) just to get their fifteen minutes or fifteen thousand.>>

I’m pretty sure the reason they had the press-conferance was because they wanted to make sure that they had first dibs on tell the story, the media would have made many wild assumptions from just the paper that was published a week later. And yes, I am sure that funding figured into the equation, nowadays you need to fight for every dollar.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-27 00:51:29 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The “skeptical” Cal Tech physicist who I believe you were referring to did not state that he believed none of the evidence pointed to life on Mars, and instead reiterated that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to warrant such a conclusion absent additional sampling of Martian soil samples (which, obviously, cannot be accomodated at present).>>

It is true that so far none of the presented evidince is likley to be disproved, they were very careful and used state-of-the-art techniques, the part were skepticism comes in is the queston of if this evidince points to life. Much more research needs to be done.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-08-27 07:36:23 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Much more research needs to be done.>>
No, it doesn’t.

Subj: Mars Life/We are alone
Date: 96-08-27 16:12:33 EDT
From: Rhianydd
Posted on: America Online

Golly, never thought I’d get such a thorough education on the life on Mars discovery in the Star Trek vs. B5 folder! :) All this is very interesting, but the main point, as far as I’m concerned (and I believe someone already mentioned this) is that I find it *extremely* difficult to believe that life, however it happens to be encoded, whether with DNA or “primitive-DNA” could spontaneously evolve on both planets *at the same time!* Given popular evolutionary theory (just take a buncha the right chemicals, and mix them up under the right conditions for a long, looong time –I can still see Julia Child energetically stirring the “primordial soup” in a little video clip shown at the National Air and Space Museum) the chances of this happening seem *incredibly* remote. And only slightly less incredible do I find the idea that life might have come about on Mars first, and then somehow managed to hop aboard a handy-dandy passing asteroid or whatever (without getting destroyed in the process), and survive the trip in the near absolute zero vacuum of space, plus heat of reentry, etc. to start up the whole ball of wax on earth! This whole Mars discovery thing raises waaay more questions than it answers.
Anyways, thinking about all these improbabilities made me think of a short article by Carl Sagan, can’t remember where or when I saw it, called We Are Alone, or something like that, in which he went into great detail on the extreme unlikelihood that life could evolve completely independently on more than one planet in the same galaxy, and even given many, many galaxies. Sagan’s basic point was, if you believe evolution as we currently understand it, it is very likely that we are alone in the universe. It has always been mildly surprising to me that so much of SF, and Trek is a prime example, take the existence of aliens (in Trek’s case, perfectly-humanoid-except-for-forehead-ear-or-nose-job aliens) for granted, and yet seem to espouse classic humanistic evolutionary theory. I guess I should be fair and say that ST:TNG did at least attempt to address this in that episode about the great galactic forebearers or whoever that little pale dude was who told Picard, a Romulan and Klingon “peace and brotherly love, my children” before vanishing. So there you have it, you really have to get into some exotic panspermia evolutionary theory at some point in order to put the “science” into SF and save it from being pure fantasy. Improbabilities piled high and deeper! Would someone please explain to me how on earth (or not on earth) there has been enough time elapsed since the Big Bang for life to arise spontaneously by pure chance elsewhere, get to a point evolved enough to spread itself across the galaxy, and then evolve to the present level on earth?!

Subj: Evolutionary Trek drek
Date: 96-08-27 16:21:01 EDT
From: Rhianydd
Posted on: America Online

On a different, but related subject, I’d like to nominate 2 episodes for some of the “Worst of Trek” category: one was on ST:TNG, when Data and Picard return to the Enterprise to find everyone “devolved”
(though I have to admit the idea of Troi as a fish, Worf as a venomous snake, Barclay as a spider, and Riker as a proto-humanoid -how appropo! was enormously amusing, but corny, lame, and just plain stoopid as all get out).
The other was the Voyager ep in which Tom Paris hits the ultimate Warp speed, which somehow magically makes him “evolve” at an enormously accelerated rate, he captures Janeway, and they both “devolve,” and are found some time later as a couple of large amphibians with a nest of slimy babies! Of course the good doc fixes ’em up – just reinstate their DNA and everything’s hunky-dory. And most amazingly, they go on their merry way and leave their little lizard-babes behind! Talk about violating the prime directive!! (which Capt. Bun gets all high and mighty and preachy about, just a couple eps down the line!) My husband and I were alternating between fits of shuddering disgust and hysterical laughter during this one. Oh my…I just had a horrible thought…maybe that planet was *really* primordial earth, which somehow got transported back in time and space to the alpha quad…which means we’re all descended from… ooh nooo! :-p
This type of cow-flop-for-brains writing is exactly why I, a former die-hard Trekkie, converted to B5 fandom with nary a whimper.

Subj: Re:Evolutionary Trek drek
Date: 96-08-27 19:56:59 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

Well said, Rhianydd. Almost every episode of Voyager this past season was ridiculous, even the ones that addressed strong issues, like “Tuvix”.

Subj: Re:Mars Life/We are alone
Date: 96-08-28 01:05:27 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I find it *extremely* difficult to believe that life, however it happens to be encoded, whether with DNA or “primitive-DNA” could spontaneously evolve on both planets *at the same time!* >>

Earth and Mars have been around for something approximating 4 billion years. How “at the same time” do they need to be for you to be skeptical? Suppose life started on this planet, say, a billion years ago, and it started on Mars 2 billion years ago but never got past the level of single-celled organisms because of the conditions there? Suppose life on Mars got started half a billion years ago? We’re talking about gaps of 500 million years and more. Hardly “simultaneous.” If it were more like within 10,000 years of when life started on Earth, or even a million years, I would tend to be more concerned about contamination, unwarranted assumptions, or some dependence on “interplanetary seeding.”

The fact is, nothing is proven yet one way or the other whether what was found in the Martian rock absolutely constitutes the fossilized (or entrapped) remnants of something that was once alive. The reason the rock has been identified as having come from Mars is the particular mixtures of materials (including trapped gases) that were inside the rock — based on an understanding of the geological processes that make rocks, how long they take, how quickly gases can diffuse through that kind of material, etc. All of which is unacceptable if you insist that the universe was created only 6,000 years ago (give or take a week). Now, whether THAT is a HOAX is a topic for the board I saw someone refer to as the “religion-bashing board.”

 

Subj: Re:Mars Life/We are alone
Date: 96-08-28 07:03:58 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< “Sagan’s basic point was, if you believe evolution as we currently understand it, it is very likely that we are alone in the universe.” >>

Carl Sagan, before cancer severely limited his activities, was one of the leading researchers into the potential for the existence of extraterrestrial life in THIS solar system. In the 1980s, he directed several promising laboratory tests to determine whether the potential existed for life to have developed on the methane-rich moon Titan. In fact, he has many times stated he believes the probability of existence of life on other planets in this galaxy, and the universe as a whole, is overwhelming. If he has, in fact, now espoused a “life on Earth only” theory, it would be an utterly radical re-formulation of his prior mindset. It would be ironic, too. He has himself produced a work of fiction concerning extraterrestrial contact with Earth (I believe that’s its name is “Contact”) which prompted him to ask his good friend and Cal Tech physicist, Kip Thorne, if he could envision any way for aliens to reach earth without violating Einstein’s theory of relativity and the speed of light. Thorne responded by groundbreaking work on the concept of “wormholes” and time travel which, as we are all aware by now, have themselves become independent staples of science fiction.

One reason that scientists believe that the martian asteroid holds promising proof of the former existence of life on Mars is because there is overwhelming evidence that at an earlier time, consistent with the age of the asteroid, Mars had flowing water and a denser atmosphere. Those conditions made for a greater likelihood that life on Mars could develop in a manner comparable to life on Earth (assuming you believe current scientific theories regarding scenarios of how dna may have developed in the world’s primordial oceans). Due to lower atmospheric pressure, both the critical atmosphere and the water itself largely dissipated after many millenia, or were locked into Mars’ ice caps and a subsurface permafrost. However, scientific tests conducted in Antarctica have confirmed that bacteria exist in a barren, desolate, ice valley that resembles current conditions on Mars, thereby leading many asto-biologists to believe there STILL may be life on Mars.

In fact, while it received much less press, the same week that NASA announced news of the martian asteroid, they also noted that the Galileo probe’s August flyby of the Jupiter moon Europa appears to confirm the suspicions of many scientists that it’s surface is an ice sheet overlaying an ocean. The existence of thi ocean has therefore often been cited as yet another possible source for life to exist in this solar system (a fact that in the early 1980s already provided the source for Arthur C. Clark’s script for “2010”).

In any event, you are correct that there are many questions that remained unanswered about the martian asteroid. Yet, the current scenario appears to point towards extraterrestrial life, and for what I perceive to be the overwhelming majority of scientists, that is not cause for surprise.

Subj: Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-08-30 16:35:09 EDT
From: Poliorcete
Posted on: America Online

Sheesh, its amazing what happens when 2 people start arguing about an article that neither one seems to have read. AcD seems to have read the USA Today article and Myth appears to be basing his knowledge on a 30 second CNN blurb. With such a weak foundation in fact no wonder we are now discussing Martian “bacteria” or claiming that only things with DNA can be alive (or that unless an alien race has DNA we can’t possibly classify them being alive based on any evidence they might leave behind) :)
Ok, having read an article (but not THE article) on this (which compared to you 2 makes me an expert on the subject) I’ll try to summarize what I remember.
(an even more sarcastic person might mention the fact that there are these amazing things called computers and the Internet that allow people to access scientific articles)
Ready? A bunch of scientists taking a day off found this green rock in Antartica. Many years later someone looking at said rock noticed that there were some unusual chemical combinations in the rock, which are USUALLY not found in nature. In fact on Earth they are USUALLY found when there was bacteria in the rock. There are also some squiglly lines in the rock that if you squint your eyes can sort of look like cell walls and such (or not). The composition of the rock is very similar to that of Mars.
Note that there was NEVER any mention of DNA or that there was Martian Bacteria.

Lord, we have all the makings of a Trek episode here; A loosely scientific foundation around which we build a Trechnobabbilsh theory with plenty of key scientific words like DNA and Quantum Physics all the while ignoring the key piece of evidence (the actual article) that would actually throw some light on the subject.
I think AcD would be played by Data and Myth would have to be one of the everpresent “Alien with funny things on his face” (like feathers or something)
Poliorcetes (to be played by Q of course :)

Subj: Re:Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-08-30 22:33:17 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<claiming that only things with DNA can be alive (or that unless an alien race has DNA we can’t possibly classify them being alive based on any evidence they might leave behind) >>
Polio, I find you an incredibly rude individual. That for starters.
Second of all, I never claimed to be an expert on this discovery (mainly because it was obvious from the news that the “experts” don’t know what they’re talking about). Your little pontification about the facts, for the record, didn’t tell me anything I didn’t know already, nor is it inconsistent with anything I said. As for DNA, I *never claimed* they’d found any evidence of any. Quite the contrary. Since you didn’t bother reading the posts you’re trashing, let’s try this one more time:
Science fiction posturing aside, the scientific definition of life is that which is based on DNA… which is why crystal formations and such aren’t considered alive. You don’t have to be a genetic biologist to postulate a machine which takes in some raw material, execretes some other material, and reproduces itself. Heck, cars do two of three. Would a gasoline-run robot that makes other gasoline-run robots be “alive”? This is why we use DNA. Maybe you prefer the Trek definition of life which says that anything that can print out “cogito ergo sum” is “alive”, but when it comes to scientific fact, I want a good scientist, not a good Trekkie.
First of all, it should be totally obvious why this report is junk science and tabloid journalism. The “usually”s alone give that away. <<unusual chemical combinations in the rock, which are USUALLY not found in nature. In fact on Earth they are USUALLY found when there was bacteria in the rock. There are also some squiglly lines in the rock that if you squint your eyes can sort of look like cell walls and such (or not).>> (Obviously we’re now experts on what chemical combinations occur naturally in all places that have rock-compositions similar to Mars) Sorry, any conclusion of “life on Mars” which could be logically drawn from this must insist that what we’re talking about here are bacteria with cell walls – an EARTH LIFE FORM of a very specific nature and, like all earth life forms, based on DNA. You want to expand the definition of life to include something really different from this, fine… but it ain’t what they’re talking about. And you can hedge your bets all you like by saying it’s not based on DNA but something similar… if its metabolic processes are close enough to bacteria to warrent the conclusion that there’s bacteria-like life on Mars, then logically, that life is sufficiently like earth life to make independent development on the planet next door highly unlikely. If you took the time to read my posts, you would know fully well that this is all I’ve ever been trying to say. The “scientists” seem to want it both ways – it’s enough like earth life to be recognizable as “life” with all the specific processes and characteristics of earth life, but different enough (maybe) to have plausibly evolved on another planet. Sorry, this is just plain nonsense. You don’t need a PhD in microbiology to recognize Barbra Streisand when you hear it.
Bless me, why don’t they teach logic at these schools?
I think the world would get on a whole lot better if certain people would take the time to figure out what a poster is trying to say rather than trying to piece together what he has and hasn’t read. Anybody with half a brain knows that those sort of guesses are usually dead wrong. Not to mention highly insulting. In the meantime, to use a criminal law analogy, this one wouldn’t get past the grand jury and would probably end up suing for false arrest. The evidence isn’t really even circumstantial.
By the way, Polio, do you happen to know the difference between an engineer, a scientist, and a mathematician? (I being the latter)
Subj: Re:Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-08-30 22:35:13 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

An engineer, a scientist, and a mathematician are on a train together and look out the window. The engineer points and says, “Look! Cows are completely white.” The scientist says, “No, some cows are completely white.” The mathematician says, “No – there exists one cow that is completely white ON ONE SIDE.”
A far cry from the world of “evidence by usuallys”, to be sure.

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-31 13:05:44 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

< Star Trek Captains would NEVER fire on their own people EVER, Unless they were damn sure it had to be done and that the orders weren’t coming from a corrupt mouthpiece of the Federation. Trek Captains are alot brighter and have a little more common sense then the idiots fighters and Captains we have seen on B5.>

You so right, in real life no one would ever vote to re-elect a president who contradicts himself every time he opens his mouth.

Don

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-08-31 13:15:43 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<The Borg have not yet had a case of a member of the collective leaving and then coming back, that was an unknown to them and they probaly did not plan for it.

–AcDec>

Excuse me, but where was this stated? The Borg have been around for a long time, having assimilated hundreds of races according to Q and Guinan. Being an automated collective they would have had to dealt with computer viruses and individuality in order for them to have survived this long. There are cultures here on earth that believe the group is far more important than the concept of “individuality”, the Borg consider the concept repugnant and irrelevant.

Don

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-08-31 19:51:48 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<You so right, in real life no one would ever vote to re-elect a president who contradicts himself every time he opens his mouth.>>
Any one of these days I expect Barclay to appear in front of me and say, “Captain, the anomoly has REALLY screwed up the plausibility circuits of our historical simulation…”

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-01 00:04:17 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< No, it doesn’t.>>

Where do you get that idea?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Mars Life/We are alone
Date: 96-09-01 00:09:34 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Improbabilities piled high and deeper! Would someone please explain to me how on earth (or not on earth) there has been enough time elapsed since the Big Bang for life to arise spontaneously by pure chance elsewhere, get to a point evolved enough to spread itself across the galaxy, and then evolve to the present level on earth?!>>

Back 4 billion years or so Earth and Mars were VERY alike. It just maybe that when conditions are right life will come into being. If Earth and Mars had life independantly came into being then we should expect that it will on other planets similar to how Earth and Mars were when life statred on them. Franklly there are many more questons than answers and much more research is needed.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Evolutionary Trek drek
Date: 96-09-01 00:12:47 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< This type of cow-flop-for-brains writing is exactly why I, a former die-hard Trekkie, converted to B5 fandom with nary a whimper. >>

Both of those are horrible episodes, but they are the exception and not the rule (at least on DS9). By the way, were not both of those episodes written by Brannon Bragga? He is certainly one of the worst writers to ever hit a keyboard for a Trek show. Thank goodness he is stuck over at Voyager. :)

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-09-01 01:03:14 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< The “scientists” seem to want it both ways – it’s enough like earth life to be recognizable as “life” with all the specific processes and characteristics of earth life, but different enough (maybe) to have plausibly evolved on another planet. Sorry, this is just plain nonsense. You don’t need a PhD in microbiology to recognize Barbra Streisand when you hear it.>>

I want to try and explain my self a little better. First off,your definition of life (being based on DNA) is NOT the accepted scientific definition, if it was most viruses would also be considered life, although by your definition retro-viruses would not.

Second, experimanets done by J. Mayo Greenberg at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands have shown that some bacteria should be able to travel through space intact. Also, since it was a NASA scientist that stated this possibility at their press conferance, I guess he thought it was possible also.

As for the DNA being nessasry for life argument; wll many scientists would disagree with you including one of the co-discoverers on DNA Francis Crick. Many think that life must have started out with something other than DNA, unfortunatly no specimins of said life can be obtained on Earth, natural selection wiped em out. Just because those martian “bacteria” seem to have eaten similar food and and used some of the same basic chemestry as DNA based lifeforms it deos not have to follow that they had to have the same material. Natural selection would seem to make sure that they would eat any good avialable food source, and the basic principals of chemisty would seem to demand the output.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Better writing
Date: 96-09-01 01:05:43 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<Excuse me, but where was this stated? The Borg have been around for a long time, having assimilated hundreds of races according to Q and Guinan. Being an automated collective they would have had to dealt with computer viruses and individuality in order for them to have survived this long. There are cultures here on earth that believe the group is far more important than the concept of “individuality”, the Borg consider the concept repugnant and irrelevant.>>

The simple fact is that Hugh stated that it had never happened before.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-01 02:40:45 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< No, it doesn’t.>>

<<Where do you get that idea?>>

I meant that my life will go on just fine without finding out the answer. As will, I suspect, a good many other people’s who only see scientists sacrificing their credibility to generate research.

 

Subj: Re:Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-09-01 02:59:05 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

AcDec:
First off, I have no plausibility problems with the possibility that one planet seeded the other. Thought I’d said this, but I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear. I for one don’t pretend to know the likelihood of bacteria surviving space voyages. But then, I’m willing to concede the possibility of a lot of other stuff that is more way-out (though more plausible) than some of the claims of this one, like our own very plausible highly-developed antediluvian culture going out into space and colonizing Mars, or Mars colonizing us. We don’t have to suppose that the bacteria was brought here by natural forces. (Why stop at space-faring Martians when we’ve made so many wild guesses already?)
I am aware that there is some debate about the definition of life (mainly because too many scientists have too vivid imaginations), but the DNA one is the most rigorous you’re gonna find. (Sorry, robot-making robots and holographic Moriarties are NOT life) I am not saying that DNA is necessary to life IF you want to expand the definition of life to include the possibility of organisms on other planets with similarly-mechanism’d genetic instructions… but now making such a definition of life is gonna start getting hazy… we’re gonna gray area ourselves through silicon-based life to things like Data and nannites, and soon we’ll be back to nuts like some university professors with WAY too much time on their hands who try to claim that the “dots” in the basic computer simulation called “life” are alive.
I for one do consider viruses to be alive, as do some scientists. As I said before, they are the main point of contention. Kinda the “duck-billed platypus” of microbiology. But this is only a war of semantics, and it’s gone on long enough.
If we’re going to learn anything from this war of semantics, it should probably be that scientists are *really* going off the deep end claiming to find evidence of “life on Mars” when they still can’t, in fact, agree on a definition of life. (I would be willing to concede cells and celluar organisms – things with genetic nucleii – as a workable def., thereby excluding viruses, but it doesn’t alter the basic point I made, which is that planets next door are not likely going to independently evolve organisms carrying on metabolic processes similar enough to be classified together. Sorry, Mars and earth are not *that* similar.)
As for the evidence of Mars, I think the syllogism goes something like this:
(1) this stuff doesn’t look like stuff from A
(2) B has stuff like this
(3) Therefore, this stuff came from B.

“These arguments sound well, but I can’t help thinking that if they were reduced to syllogistic form, they wouldn’t hold water.” – Gilbert and Sullivan, “Ruddigore”

Subj: Re:Intellectual Masturbation
Date: 96-09-02 02:50:19 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< If we’re going to learn anything from this war of semantics, it should probably be that scientists are *really* going off the deep end claiming to find evidence of “life on Mars” when they still can’t, in fact, agree on a definition of life.>>

There is a simple fact why not everyone cannot agree on a definition for life, it’s because it such a generality. Organic life would be a much better term for the life as we know it. It was OK to use life as you do, when we only had one little spot on the universe from which to draw our conclusions; now however we have a much larger database and better definitions need to be agreed upon Somewhere I have a great broad definition of life that would fit very nicely, I will find it when I can and post it.

<< (I would be willing to concede cells and celluar organisms – things with genetic nucleii – as a workable def., thereby excluding viruses, but it doesn’t alter the basic point I made, which is that planets next door are not likely going to independently evolve organisms carrying on metabolic processes similar enough to be classified together.>>

Bacteria do not have nucleii, they have plasmids that carry their genetic material. Only eurkaryotes have nucleii. Also, why would their metabolic processes not be similar? The laws of physics and chemestry are the same on Mars as they are on Earth; metabolism is just chemestry. Microbes found at 270 degrees by hot vents w/ no source of sunlight(some scientists think that this is where life began) are still classified as bacteria w/ those found at below freezing
temperatures that use the sunlight for energy. You can’t get much more extreme than those two, and yet both are still called bacteria; it’s a very general term.

<<Sorry, Mars and earth are not *that* similar.)>>

They were very similar back about 4 billion years ago, when these “bacteria” were fossilised.
They were both very active volcaniclly, had flowing water, similar mineral content, similar atmosphere’s etc. In fact, some scientists think that Mars was more accomidating to the formation of life than Earth was.
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-02 02:53:28 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I meant that my life will go on just fine without finding out the answer. As will, I suspect, a good many other people’s who only see scientists sacrificing their credibility to generate research.>>

That’s too bad. Attitudes like that could have stopped Gallileo, Newton, Einstien, Pasteur, Flemming, etc.

–AcDec

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-02 02:55:49 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

One queston Mytho, are you scared that this research may somehow shed some doubts about some of your “beliefs”?
–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-02 06:46:05 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<One queston Mytho, are you scared that this research may somehow shed some doubts about some of your “beliefs”?>>

Oh boy… I have been waiting with glee on the edge of my seat for someone to bring this one up…

My whole argument was that it is unlikely that such similar metabolisms could evolve on neighboring planets (even more coincidentally the only two we’ve explored in detail) BY CHANCE. When I first saw the headline, my reaction if it were true was not, “NOOO! The earth isn’t the center of the universe anymore. My pwecious faith is left in shreds!” but “There goes every theory about the origin of life on this planet… modern scientific ‘fact’ about the origin of life is left in shreds.” Fact of the matter is, it’s YOUR religion (if I may be presumptuous on this point – the religion of scientific humanism anyway) which has been seriously threatened, not mine.
There is absolutely nothing in my faith which presupposes that earth is of any particular importance whatsoever. On the contrary, Christianity goes to great pains to say that humanity has no appreciable importance or earth any astronomical significance. (Read “Genesis” carefully – it’s told from a human perspective – but nowhere says the sun, moon, and stars are ONLY objects to be seen from earth.) The book of “Job” spells this out in painful detail, as does the parable of the lost sheep. God became human not because humanity was of any particular importance, but because humanity was the “lost” sheep, and we have no way of knowing how many “sheep” that hadn’t gotten lost were not so honored. The parable of the prodigal son says the same thing. Humanity may have many older, wiser, smarter, but possibly jealous brothers.
Moreover, the whole idea that people used to think, until the glorious scientific revolution, that the earth was most of the universe is simply a modern retcon. The standard astronomical text throughout the Middle Ages (Ptolemy’s “Almagest”) says, “The earth, in relation to the distance of the fixed stars, has no appreciable size and must be treated as a mathematical point.”
The whole idea that the insignificance of mankind or the earth somehow refutes Christianity is a patronizing modern uneducated myth. And, to digress a little, every educated person since the time of Pythagoras has known that the earth is round. As has every seaman, educated or otherwise, from the way ships go over the horizon. And to digress even further, science did not come sweeping away magic as a mind set. Medievals were totally unconcerned with both, and both were born of the Rennaisance. What we now call science was simply the stuff that “worked.” The image is not of medieval wizards (Merlin has few parallels, and remember he was a druid, not a Christian), but of alchemists trying to turn lead into gold, dabbling in one seamless, to them, art some of which we now call science and some magic. Both novelties to his world.
To get back to the point, life on other planets would only strengthen the case for the existence of God and weaken the case for the whole intricately woven theory of life “just happening by pure chance.” (None of which has anything to do with what METHOD God might have used) I have, as you see, been giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Sorry to belabor this, but I’ve had a lot of time to think it over. You did take so very long getting around to this accusation.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-02 06:46:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

P.S. Your whole accusation, that I am somehow an incomplete human being for not having a view of life that values the pursuit of knowledge foremost, is patronizing and cuts to the very heart, if I may return us to the subject, of the whole Trek vs. B5 debate (and this is a subtle way of saying that the “life” thing is *really* getting tiresome) – the patronizing values of the knowledge-obsessed Federation on the one hand (“This society is up to level 6 of the standard set of phases that all societies go through in the grim march out of stagnant superstition to the glorious phase of becoming just like us”), and the tolerance for alternative viewpoints of life (religion in general, particularly Buddhism, which is about as anti-knowledge-pursuing as religions get, technomages, the possibility of magic and souls, major differences in the values of societies like Minbar, Centauri, earth, and Narn without being patronizing) on the other.

P.P.S. There are not quite so many “m”‘s in Fleming.

Subj: Outlandish Coincidence
Date: 96-09-03 00:06:11 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

One topic that has come up repeatedly is the outlandish coincidence in “Ship of Tears” that they wake up ONE telepath and it JUST HAPPENS to be Bester’s lover (and the mother-to-be of his child). My family was discussing this recently, and one suggestion that came up is “allowable dramatic license.” Basically, the idea is that with the hundreds of telepaths that are on the sleeper ship, and the way they were “chosen” to be there, it’s pretty certain that Bester’s lover would be among them. Now, the show COULD have been written so that they pulled somebody else out, woke him or her up, had the same reaction — and between the “entechment” and the use of “blips,” Bester would get curious and start looking through the passenger manifest for the ship (or whatever list they had of everybody aboard). Of course, he would then discover his lover (Caroline, was it?), and would have had the same angry reaction, made the same vow to help B5 do anything necessary to fight the Shadows, and the end result would have been the same. The differences would include two important items: (1) it would take longer to tell the story, and (2) it wouldn’t have the same dramatic impact. Hence, the use of dramatic license to pull Caroline out directly and have Bester respond to it.

So, yes, the coincidence was outlandish. But in view of the fact that the story would have had the same ending, by whatever path it took, why not write one with more dramatic impact?
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-03 11:11:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Fact of the matter is, it’s YOUR religion (if I may be presumptuous on this point – the religion of scientific humanism anyway) which has been seriously threatened, not mine.>>

Thats funny, I don’t even know what “scientific humanism” is.
And you seem to get the wrong idea that I was asking about your religius beliefs, I already know pretty much what those are. There are many beliefs that we hold dear and not all of them happen to have spiritual sognifigance.

Though your message did point out one of those beliefs that you did hold wich was challanged by this “revelation”. You seem to think that there is some major scientific consensus on the mechanism by which life first formed on this planet, sorry but there is really not one. That is why this discovery is so important, it provides evidince from which we can make better hypothysis on who life does form. Right now scientists cannot even agree on what form the first life on Earth started with. This provides some of the clues we need to come up with some ideas.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-03 11:23:50 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Your whole accusation, that I am somehow an incomplete human being for not having a view of life that values the pursuit of knowledge foremost, is patronizing and cuts to the very heart, if I may return us to the subject, of the whole Trek vs. B5 debate >>

I did not say you were an incomplete human being, I was saying that your attitude was “sad”, and I pointed out that the persuit of knowlage has greatly helped humanity.I have no problem if you think that pursuit of knowlage is not the most important activity of human endeavor; I took offense that you said it was unimportant. Frankly, it is my belief that the persuit of knowlage is the one thing that seperates humans for all of the other species on Earth and that it is our greatest duty. Is not the drive to understand and express the world around us the basis for almost all human inventions, art, music, literature, science, and to me atleast religon?

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Outlandish Coincidence
Date: 96-09-03 21:16:41 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<So, yes, the coincidence was outlandish. But in view of the fact that the story would have had the same ending, by whatever path it took, why not write one with more dramatic impact?>>
Last in, first out. Maybe the inclusion of “Bester’s lover” was debated and gone with at the last minute by the powers that be. I can see the “powers that be” finding out and wondering whether it’d pull him back to the fold or drive him further away, so stalling until the last minute.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-03 21:21:42 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Right now scientists cannot even agree on what form the first life on Earth started with. >>
This is true. My beef is that it’s one of those things they only admit when cornered (like now).
Believe it or not (and I suspect this is what *really* ticks you off), I don’t *have* deep scientific opinions. Why should I, when half the scientists argue with the other half? The list of things scientists teach to laymen as facts and then whisper to one another about how it’s still debatable is endless. Sorry, I know too much about the way science works to believe that it is the “unbiased search for objective truth.”

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-03 21:25:34 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I took offense that you said it was unimportant.>>
Pity bout that.
<<Frankly, it is my belief that the persuit of knowlage is the one thing that seperates humans for all of the other species on Earth and that it is our greatest duty.>>
Frankly, it is my belief that the ability that free will is the one thing that separates humans from all other species on earth – the ability to be something other than what he’s supposed to be. Pursuit of knowledge is simply a pursuit like any other, yielding good results and bad fairly equally.
<< Is not the drive to understand and express the world around us the basis for almost all human inventions, art, music, literature, science, and to me at least religon?>>
No.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-04 07:42:36 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< This is true. My beef is that it’s one of those things they only admit when cornered (like now).>>

That’s funny; almost every book I have read on the subjet had a great amount of discussion on the issue.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-04 07:45:51 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< No.>>

Oh really, then what do you think is the basis for art, music, writing, science, and religion.

 

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Outlandish Coincidence
Date: 96-09-04 19:37:46 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

<<So, yes, the coincidence was outlandish. But in view of the fact that the story would have had the same ending, by whatever path it took, why not write one with more dramatic impact?>>

Coincidence is a fact of life. An odd thing that happened to me while I was in the Navy was when I was in port, in Palma, Spain. I was walking around town on liberty and walked right in to my sisters best friend who was there on vacation. What are the odds of meeting someone who you haven’t seen in six years half way around the world? Especially when neither of you know that the other one is in the same hemisphere?

Don

Subj: Voyager: New & Improved?
Date: 96-09-04 22:25:02 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

All Hail Voyager! the worst SF show currently on TV. I have just concluded viewing the season opener and I have several questions about the ep.

1) Since all of their communicators were confiscated, how in the world were they able to speak to Neelix & Kes? Much less any other none human in the crew. (no universal translator)

2) Food is a real problem, But so is eating that which is indegestible; yet Janeway walks up to a rock pulls out some grub worms and orders everyone to eat them. (my personal reply to her would have been,”no ma’am, but you go ahead and i’ll watch you for few hours to see if your still alive and healthy before i try it”) Also, isn’t it amazing how Neelix fed everyone with 2 eggs and 7 cucumbers? Maybe Janeway blessed them first.

3) Speaking of the crew, isn’t somewhwere around 200 people on board Voyager?( I could be wrong about that) I never saw more that 30 people walking across the plains

4) Tuvok is truly amazing, less than an hour and he has a bow and arrow, and numerous spears, even though we do not see a single tree during the entire show. Where did the material for the weapons come from?

5) How where the talaxians able to walk right up and start operating Voyager?

6) I thought the Kazon were mighty warriors, yet they abandon ship when borded by 3 people

Don

 
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-04 22:54:17 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Oh really, then what do you think is the basis for art, music, writing, science, and religion.>>
Is that not like saying what is the basis for life? We could write volumes on the subject and still not find two people that agreed. That it is the “pursuit of knowledge” indisputably or likelier than anything else is to me just silly. The “pursuit of knowledge” as a primary end in itself is a very modern goal which most ancients wouldn’t have understood, give or take a few small circles of Greek buddies… and the only significant religion which was formed around it (Gnosticism) was predicatably a bust… at least until H.G. Wells and Roddenberry and the grand humanistic tradition, which, while it may qualify as a religion, is very new.
If you’re saying that the basic earmarks of civilization are those things whose origin lies in the pursuit of knowledge as opposed to sheer practicality, I would have to argue. On my list of people with very mundane motives is Gutenberg, Edison, Watt & co., Columbus, Fleming, and my favorite, Crawford Williamson Long (you would not believe what they used ether for in antebellum Georgia).
Writing developed for very practical reasons. Religion developed because it has a kernel of divine truth (betcha more people of the ages would agree with me). Science… depends on your definition. One of the great minds behind the “rise of science” (Francis Bacon) condemned knowledge as an end in itself, that that was “to use as a mistress for pleasure what ought to be a spouse for fruit.” Art and music… the desire to create something beautiful and share it with others? The idea that the creation must “tell us something” is an idea imposed upon art later on.
But this is getting WAY off the subject, except insofar as it cuts to the core of Trek values versus B5 values. In the Trek universe, everything really is that simple – undeniable bases for reality and human social evolution. In the B5 universe, we see a recognition that life is a little more complicated than the current pseudoscientific Zeitgeists explaining it.

Subj: Re:Voyager: New & Improved?
Date: 96-09-04 22:57:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<1) Since all of their communicators were confiscated, how in the world were they able to speak to Neelix & Kes? Much less any other none human in the crew. (no universal translator)>>
Speaking of coincidence being a fact of life, would you believe me if I said that I was wondering the EXACT SAME THING? In fact, I was hoping they’d get them back at the end so that we could suddenly understand the Grunts. (Suppose that would’ve been a bit much to ask for.)

<<3) Speaking of the crew, isn’t somewhwere around 200 people on board Voyager?( I could be wrong about that) I never saw more that 30 people walking across the plains>>
And three more gone in this episode alone.

 

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-05 23:22:56 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

<<Asimov made sure that he looked at everything in life, he studied science, history, economics etc. He was like Picard on TNG, he loved learning anything he could. And in the second part are you saying that the uncertainty principal is “junk science”?>>

Good Point AcDec.
Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-06 00:46:30 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< But this is getting WAY off the subject, except insofar as it cuts to the core of Trek values versus B5 values. In the Trek universe, everything really is that simple – undeniable bases for reality and human social evolution. In the B5 universe, we see a recognition that life is a little more complicated than the current pseudoscientific Zeitgeists explaining it.>>

Well, like in all thing human we will have to agree to disagree, and this dabate is best left on the philosophy boards. And since when was all of the questons of life in the Trek universe simple? Any how I was taking in my yearly dose of Hawking today and he mentioned something that may have some merit for this discussion. Now, I assume that in the Trek universe they have came up w/ a theory where quantom mechanics, and the theory of relativity are merged. Now, according to Hawking one of the possibilities that such a theory would intail would be that the Universe would have no boundry in space-time and therefore there would be no need for a creator since nothing was created. If this theory is “proven” in the Trek universe then it would be a very good explanation on why there don’t seem to be many creator worshiping religions (the two religions we have seen close-up are the Klingon and Bajorian ones and neither worships a creator). Of course not everyone will not be convinced and that would account for the examples of creator-based religion we have seen. And before you say no one on Trek is religious look at these examples.

1. Christianity (“Bread and Circuses”), and I always get the impression that Bones was a christian from episodes like “The Apple”.
2. Hinduism (“Data’s Day”)
3. The fact that even Picard believes in an after-life. He also celibrates christmas, but that really does not say much, even I do.
4, Even Roddenberry was not really an atheist, but instead had a real stange concept of “God”. For more info read “God and Roddenberry” at the end of -Star Trek Creator-.

I think that Trek shows, not an absense of religion, but a universe were people keep religion in their private lives, something that would probally be nessesary in a culture as diverse as the Federation.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-06 06:01:35 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Now, according to Hawking one of the possibilities that such a theory would intail would be that the Universe would have no boundry in space-time and therefore there would be no need for a creator since nothing was created.>>
I think Hawking should stick to science, not amateur philosophy. I find the “therefore” in this sentence to be a total non-sequitur.
Anyone with more than a “Sunday school” level understanding of any major religion would concede that God does not exist in Spacetime. Time is part of the creation like any other. (While this concept could hardly be made explicit, it’s quite clearly implicit in many statements in Christianity and Judaism, for instance). If you’re trying to say, in effect, that the universe doesn’t have a creator because it extends infinitely in time in the backward direction, a little reading by Christian authors with a scholarly education (like C.S. Lewis) will convince you that this argument is totally spurious – God is still posited as the creator of the four-dimensional universe. I don’t think God has been seriously posited as a being existing in time, the creator of the three dimensional universe, in four centuries or so. He would by definition not be God if he didn’t create the fourth dimension. So where’s the difficulty?
“Bless me, it’s all in Plato. What DO they teach them at these schools?” Plato conceded the possibility that the universe was infinite in time, but said that a “sustainer” was still required if not a “creator.” Well, he didn’t understand the concept of a four-dimensional universe “being created”, but it’s pretty much the same thing in different words.
You’ll probably refute that this position gives, as you said, “no need” for a creator. Well, precisely no more or less need for a creator of a three-dimensional universe. So Hawking’s argument (assuming the philosophical bits are his) seems to me totally meaningless. (Better not quit his day job)
As for the spatial dimensions being boundless, I really don’t see what relevance at all *that* has to the question… unless you’re arguing that God can’t create something infinitely big because he’d have to create X amount of it per second and would never finish. 😉 (Sounds like theology from Dr. Franklin)
Until Einstein, people pretty much assumed a Euclidean universe, boundless by definition – yet they believed in God. (Einstein was one, in fact) I really don’t see where throwing a fourth dimension into the equation changes the situation at all. Or a fifth, a sixth, a seventh, etc. There’s no reason there couldn’t be an infinite number or dimensions or (here’s a mindblower) a continum of dimensions (what we mathematicians would call a 2 to the power aleph-nought number of dimensions). I don’t think that’s really exhausting the resources even of the God of the Old Testament, and you’re never going to exhaust the resources of Plato’s God.

<<people keep religion in their private lives, something that would probally be nessesary in a culture as diverse as the Federation>>
I think you’re missing the point. (Laying aside what a strain it is to find references even on TOS of main characters being religious; I’ll give you Bones cause I haven’t seen The Apple in years – unless you’re arguing from the cute “Spock looks like the devil” thing at the end, which I doubt) The point is that whatever Trek characters may believe in their private lives (which NEVER comes up), their beliefs, VERY unlike the world of B5, don’t affect their actions. They may have unseen theological points of contention, but they don’t have *religion*. Show me the chapel on any Enterprise (if the word “Majel” comes up I *will* have to hurt you 😉 ). With the exception of Kira (alien religion; cheap as dirt; no baggage) and Worf (who has become a total joke), no Trek character’s actions were ever affected in the slightest by his religious beliefs. The closest example you’re gonna find is Picard, who took a # of decisions on moral principle.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-06 13:49:19 EDT
From: Monte01
Posted on: America Online

<< “Show me the chapel on any Enterprise” >>

I may be wrong about this, because it’s been years since I saw this episode…. But in the TOS episode which introduced the Romulans, a crew member who dies was supposed to be married the day the Enterprise encounters the Romulans. As I recall (and I emphasize, this is a “recollection,” and I very well may be mistaken), his fiancee is shown at the end being consoled by Kirk in — you guessed it — a chapel. On the other hand, Kirk, not a priest, is shown at the beginning giving the wedding ceremony, although the tradition of maritime captains (which I guess in th 24th century has been extended to star”ship” commanders) being allowed to give this blessing has deep roots in history (remember the ending to “The African Queen”?). In deference to the producers of both B5 and Star Trek, I think there is a deep concern, in no small part led by the diversity of the casts and the perceived televison audiences, that it is better not to offend any religious group. Accordingly, Star Trek deals with this by more or less eliminating references to earth religions — B5 appears to deal with it by celebrating religious diversity (or at least Christian and Judaic traditions).

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-06 16:27:45 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I think Hawking should stick to science, not amateur philosophy. I find the “therefore” in this sentence to be a total non-sequitur.>>

Since when did the study of physics become “amateur philosophy”.

<< Anyone with more than a “Sunday school” level understanding of any major religion would concede that God does not exist in Spacetime. Time is part of the creation like any other. (While this concept could hardly be made explicit, it’s quite clearly implicit in many statements in Christianity and Judaism, for instance). If you’re trying to say, in effect, that the universe doesn’t have a creator because it extends infinitely in time in the backward direction, a little reading by Christian authors with a scholarly education (like C.S. Lewis) will convince you that this argument is totally spurious – God is still posited as the creator of the four-dimensional universe. I don’t think God has been seriously posited as a being existing in time, the creator of the three dimensional universe, in four centuries or so. He would by definition not be God if he didn’t create the fourth dimension. So where’s the difficulty?>>

If the universe was never created then how could there be a creator?

<< “Bless me, it’s all in Plato. What DO they teach them at these schools?” Plato conceded the possibility that the universe was infinite in time, but said that a “sustainer” was still required if not a “creator.” Well, he didn’t understand the concept of a four-dimensional universe “being created”, but it’s pretty much the same thing in different words.>>

I did not know that Plato studied how to combine relativity and quantom mechanics. Heck, he did not even know Newtonian physics.

<< You’ll probably refute that this position gives, as you said, “no need” for a creator. Well, precisely no more or less need for a creator of a three-dimensional universe. So Hawking’s argument (assuming the philosophical bits are his) seems to me totally meaningless. (Better not quit his day job)>>

This really has nothing to do w/ the 4th dimension, the boundry-less universe is simply something that is a consequence of combining special relatively, w/ the uncertainty principal.

<< Until Einstein, people pretty much assumed a Euclidean universe, boundless by definition – yet they believed in God. (Einstein was one, in fact) I really don’t see where throwing a fourth dimension into the equation changes the situation at all. Or a fifth, a sixth, a seventh, etc. There’s no reason there couldn’t be an infinite number or dimensions or (here’s a mindblower) a continum of dimensions (what we mathematicians would call a 2 to the power aleph-nought number of dimensions). I don’t think that’s really exhausting the resources even of the God of the Old Testament, and you’re never going to exhaust the resources of Plato’s God.>>

Eienstien’s religious beliefs actually caused him to do some stupid things like ignoring quantom mechanics, and makeing up the cosmological constant, because he wanted to believe that “God does not play dice”.

<<The point is that whatever Trek characters may believe in their private lives (which NEVER comes up), their beliefs,>>

We have learned a little about some of the charaters beliefs. We know that Picard believes in a form of life-after-death.

<< VERY unlike the world of B5, don’t affect their actions. They may have unseen theological points of contention, but they don’t have *religion*.>>

It is true that Gene was very anti-organized religion, but he was farm from an atheist like Asimov.

<< Show me the chapel on any Enterprise (if the word “Majel” comes up I *will* have to hurt you ;)>>
In “Balance of Terror” there was a chapel, and people probaly used the holdecks on the E-D.

Maybe you just don’t understand the Trek style, they have always used aliens to comment on human issues, from “A Private Little War” to “Rejoined”. It is just a writing style that has worked for 30 years.

–AcDec

Subj: Re: Editors? We dont need no
Date: 96-09-06 20:09:29 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Any one of these days I expect Barclay to appear in front of me and say, “Captain, the anomoly has REALLY screwed up the plausibility circuits of our historical simulation…”<<

“Dammit, doesn’t anything WORK around here? First it’s the transporters, then it’s the replicators, then the warp fiels inducers….”

Subj: Re:Voyager: New & Improved?
Date: 96-09-06 20:39:51 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>
All Hail Voyager! the worst SF show currently on TV. I have just concluded viewing the season opener and I have several questions about the ep.
1) Since all of their communicators were confiscated, how in the world were they able to speak to Neelix & Kes? Much less any other none human in the crew. (no universal translator)<<

They pantomimed off camera…

>>2) Food is a real problem, But so is eating that which is indegestible; yet Janeway walks up to a rock pulls out some grub worms and orders everyone to eat them. (my personal reply to her would have been,”no ma’am, but you go ahead and i’ll watch you for few hours to see if your still alive and healthy before i try it”) Also, isn’t it amazing how Neelix fed everyone with 2 eggs and 7 cucumbers? Maybe Janeway blessed them first.<<

“Take this grub and tasteth it that thou may sukle on the life of the Earth” The Book of Janeway: Stupidicus, chapter twelve, verse e^1/2
“And from these cucumbers and a pair of eggs shalt thou create nourishment for my flock; thou shalt attend to the heisenberg difibrulator xenocatheter mcdoohicky deluxe whilst thou art at work in thy task.” The Book of Janeway: Really Stupid Joke, chapter 1, verse 2.3×10^14 kgm^2/s^2

>>3) Speaking of the crew, isn’t somewhwere around 200 people on board Voyager?( I could be wrong about that) I never saw more that 30 people walking across the plains<<

Their uniforms have a very advanced feature in them that the Fedaration has kept secret for a long time: they’re made like clown cars. Weren’t you wondering where they get all those disposable redshirts from?

>>4) Tuvok is truly amazing, less than an hour and he has a bow and arrow, and numerous spears, even though we do not see a single tree during the entire show. Where did the material for the weapons come from?<<

It’s amazing what one can do with recycled MREs in the 23rd century.

>>5) How where the talaxians able to walk right up and start operating Voyager?<<

Windows 2395 is VERY user friendly.

>>6) I thought the Kazon were mighty warriors, yet they abandon ship when borded by 3 people
Don<<

They’re as sick of Voyager as we are…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-07 00:58:30 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<But in the TOS episode which introduced the Romulans, a crew member who dies was supposed to be married the day the Enterprise encounters the Romulans.>>
Yes, “Balance of Terror” was the only thing that came to mind while I was writing it, but Kirk married them, suggesting no chaplin, and I think the hall they were married in was some kind of “all purpose” hall; it was pretty stark. I remember him consoling her at the end but didn’t remember the location being significant or mentioned by name – could have been for all I remember.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-07 01:05:37 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Since when did the study of physics become “amateur philosophy”.>>
I resign from this argument, because now you’re simply twisting my words. It was quite clear that I was condemning Hawking’s supposed conclusion that there was no God. (Assuming, as I mentioned, that he and not just you said it)
<<If the universe was never created then how could there be a creator?>>
I had a vague feeling this was about the level of depth you were putting into the issue, in which case my whole (unread) last post was a waste of time. It seems to your way of thinking there is no such thing as philosophy, only science, and we can (1) ignore the philosophical speculations of everyone who isn’t up to the decade in his understanding of science and (2) take the philosophical opinions of scientists as gospel because, gosh, they’re so clever – look at what good scientists they are.
So I think that about does it, unless you produce an intelligent response. Don’t feel obligated. Take it to e-mail if you like. Even *I’m* getting bored after that last post.

Subj: Re:Voyager: New & Improved?
Date: 96-09-07 01:08:36 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

>>6) I thought the Kazon were mighty warriors, yet they abandon ship when borded by 3 people
Don<<

I think they watched too many times the courageous Voyager personnel retreating when boarded by 2 guys with guns. Pick up bad habits.

Subj: who cares………..
Date: 96-09-07 14:42:07 EDT
From: EPSILON 3
Posted on: America Online

read the subject.

epsilon 3

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-08 01:54:08 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< Yes, “Balance of Terror” was the only thing that came to mind while

I was writing it, but Kirk married them, suggesting no chaplin, and I think the hall they were married in was some kind of “all purpose” hall; it was pretty stark. I remember him consoling her at the end but didn’t remember the location being significant or mentioned by name – could have been for all I remember.>>

The Captain marrying people is an old tradition, and they refered to the hall as “the chapel”.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-08 01:57:53 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<< I resign from this argument, because now you’re simply twisting my words. It was quite clear that I was condemning Hawking’s supposed conclusion that there was no God. (Assuming, as I mentioned, that he and not just you said it)>>

He concluded that as a result of the theory there is no place for a creator.

<< I had a vague feeling this was about the level of depth you were putting into the issue, in which case my whole (unread) last post was a waste of time. It seems to your way of thinking there is no such thing as philosophy, only science, and we can (1) ignore the philosophical speculations of everyone who isn’t up to the decade in his understanding of science and (2) take the philosophical opinions of scientists as gospel because, gosh, they’re so clever – look at what good scientists they are.
So I think that about does it, unless you produce an intelligent response. Don’t feel obligated. Take it to e-mail if you like. Even *I’m* getting bored after that last post.>>

Listen, just answer this one simple queston, IF THE UNIVERSE WAS IN NO WAY CREATED WHAT PURPOSE IS THERE FOR A CREATOR.

–AcDec

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-08 03:18:53 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Listen, just answer this one simple queston, IF THE UNIVERSE WAS IN NO WAY CREATED WHAT PURPOSE IS THERE FOR A CREATOR.>>
I already have. I’m not beating this thread to death any further. If you’re really interested in the inanity behind that wordplay, take it to e-mail. Or read my post on the subject, which says in effect (I’ll try to keep the words small) “God no create time, Him no create universe, since it have 4 dimensions.”
If Hawking really said that the universe has no creator because it’s inifinite in time in both directions, then I have lost whatever little respect I had for him, and I think everyone but you has gotten the point by now, which was the absurdity of scientists, untrained in philosophy, nevertheless pontificating on matters philosophical giving their scientific credentials as evidence. You might as well say that Ted Danson is an oceanographer because he’s a good actor.
This horse is now dead, if you please.

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-08 15:13:56 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Maybe I’m just being facitious here, but wouldn’t this thread be more apt fot the “B5 and Religion” folder?

(ut oh, now I’m going to be accused of trying to push everyone back into the ghetto again, aren’t I?)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…NOT!
Date: 96-09-08 19:06:02 EDT
From: NecRon 01
Posted on: America Online

I agree with HFMoon, leave this debate private or in the religion folder, please. I know this is just AcDec’s attempt to change the subject ;)…Jeez, you guys have been so intense no one has even changed the title-it’s been “Idle minds” for about thirty posts now…

Oh yeah, B5 rules, TNG sucks, blah blah blah…

Subj: Re:Idle minds…
Date: 96-09-08 21:51:39 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Maybe I’m just being facitious here, but wouldn’t this thread be more apt fot the “B5 and Religion” folder?
(ut oh, now I’m going to be accused of trying to push everyone back into the ghetto again, aren’t I?)>>

LOL! Actually (as you know by now) I found an even better place for the thread. (I’ve already dropped two hints on the subject…)

Subj: Re:Idle minds…NOT!
Date: 96-09-08 21:54:04 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Jeez, you guys have been so intense no one has even changed the title-it’s been “Idle minds” for about thirty posts now…>>
You mean someone actually *reads* the titles? 😉
Don’t worry – it’ll all pick up once B5 gets going again. (I will probably be vanishing shortly until then – once bitten, forever shy – and a few spoilers have already been injudiciously posted.)

Subj: Star Trek and religion
Date: 96-09-09 00:10:01 EDT
From: MSTSchramm
Posted on: America Online

I’ve enjoyed reading the messages on this board for months now, although much of the science discussed is far beyond my understanding. Mythophile, I wish you would reconsider your decision to cease posting.

For those of you who think that Star Trek in all of its incarnations is respectful of religion, I would like to remind you of the Next Generation episode, “Who Watches the Watchers.” Captain Picard clearly equated belief in a deity with primitive superstition. In view of the large numbers of people who have some kind of faith, it may be unwise to offend this audience…but that didn’t stop the producers from airing one thoroughly intolerant episode.

Thanks to all of you who have kept these discussions going.

Subj: Re:Star Trek and religion
Date: 96-09-09 12:14:23 EDT
From: AcDec
Posted on: America Online

<<For those of you who think that Star Trek in all of its incarnations is respectful of religion, I would like to remind you of the Next Generation episode, “Who Watches the Watchers.” Captain Picard clearly equated belief in a deity with primitive superstition. In view of the large numbers of people who have some kind of faith, it may be unwise to offend this audience…but that didn’t stop the producers from airing one thoroughly intolerant episode.>>

Actually Picard was mainly POed that these people who once had grown out of a diety based religion were sent right back down when they mistook him for a god. Picard has however shown respect for Worf’s religion many times. Picards religion is the same as Roddenberry’s since he wrote it. To find out more, and why Gene did not care for diety based religion read “God and Roddenberry” in the back of his authorized biography. Gene was definitely not an atheist.

–AcDec

 

Subj: New folder
Date: 96-09-09 14:47:06 EDT
From: B5 Online
Posted on: America Online

Please continue this discussion in the B5 vs Star Trek #3 folder. Thanks! :>

-B5

9/9/96 1:34:57 PM Closing Log file.

 

 

 

 

 

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