Sheridan and Delenn

Sheridan/Delenn Folder Log #1
America Online, Inc.
Keyword: Babylon 5

Subj: Death and Z’ha’dum
Date: 96-07-03 13:50:01 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Perhaps the reason that John so cockily trots off to Z’ha’dum is *because* of his foreknowledge of the situation with Delenn and their son. You know “oh,well, I *can’t* die because I know in 17 years that I will be on Centauri Prime and I will be with Delenn, etc.” So perhaps he assumes things that he should not?

Subj: Re:Davids Galore
Date: 96-07-03 16:44:19 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<< If I remember correctly, the Latin base of the word “conspiracy” means “To breathe together.”>>

Of course you’re right – that was an extremely poor choice of words on my part – I suppose I just say Oliver Stone and conspiracy with the same breath (forgive a bad pun, please.) What I meant was, that I was seeing JMS creating connections that aren’t really there re biblical names, as Stone sees(imagines?) various connections to support his conspiracy theories.

Perhaps the word I really want is paranoia, at least to describe myself – JMS *is* out to get us, isn’t he?

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-03 16:49:08 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Maybe jms just wants to use common names because giving someone a name like “Tiberius” makes it harder to relate to him>>

I’ve often wondered if Roddenberry knew what he was doing, giving Kirk that middle name, or if it was just *really* poor research on somebody’s part. For all his faults, Kirk was no Tiberius – ever read or see “I,Claudius”?

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-03 17:20:45 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<< Re facing “fire and darkness” with no guarantees that you will survive,
Delenn keeps saying she has yet to face this: i’m thinking Za’ha’dum may be
that fire and darkness? I also had the impression that there was no time
frame slated for this one, and no guarantee that it came before or after the
child – BARRIEJ >>

Fascinating, Barrie – thanks. One thought that occurs to me – Sinclair could not have
known about the pain and suffering Delenn keeps talking about as being prophesied – it
hadn’t happened when he left for the past. Compared to what has occurred by 2270 as
implied by John’s time flash and what Delenn and Londo said in it, we, and the B5
characters, have not yet seen suffering of that magnitude – Delenn’s “fire and darkness”
which she hasn’t experienced so far. So perhaps Valen did have other sources than
Sinclair’s memory.

JMS’s weasel word in this case may be “knowledge” – he said something to the effect that
Valen has no more knowledge (as in direct experience?) of the future than what Sinclair
“lived through” in the 23rd century, but that doesn’t preclude a revelation (supernatural/
Vorlon-originated/whatever) from a non-Sinclair source, does it? As you pointed out in
one of your postings, Kosh gave Sheridan a prophecy concerning the coming of David in
TATHL, so Vorlons surely could have contributed to Valen’s predictions. I suspect that
there are still more facets to Valen’s prophecies than we have yet heard about.

Martha

Subj: Re:General
Date: 96-07-03 19:34:31 EDT
From: SMPTrek
Posted on: America Online

It’s been very interesting reading this message board over the last couple of weeks (I’ve been reading the messages going back to April). We are quite a way behind you here in the UK. We will be seeing Sic Transit Vir on Sunday (I hope. By rights it should have been on last Sunday but was taken off for coverage of the Tour de France). I can’t wait now to see the other episodes that have been mentioned. I now know what to look out for.

I was at a Babylon 5 convention here in London a week or so ago. None of the guests gave away any secrets unfortunately. I don’t think they even know what is going to happen. The only main actor who was missing was Bruce Boxleitner. All the others were great.

Apparently, were here in the UK will be getting the final five shows before you. (he he he). Although somebody did say that they may hold them up so that you can catch up.

SMPTrek (OK I love Trek too).

 

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-03 20:30:11 EDT
From: Sandi94839
Posted on: America Online

Hot flash, Claudius himself was also a Tiberius.

Subj: Mom?
Date: 96-07-03 20:45:58 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I’m just brielfy noting here (may say more later)

don’t forget MS Shadow at the door had HAIR..

Unless mom is wearing a wig as a practical joke on her daughter…

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-03 21:45:15 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
One other comment: the prophecies I mentioned only concerned Delenn. There was one more from Valen: that the two halves of the soul would be re-united so that they could fight the ancient enemy (see Points of Departure, Lennier says this).

As others have reminded us, Zathras said he knew things from the Great Machine that even Draal didn’t know. JMS said that the “accuracy” of the prophecies ended with Sinclair’s departure. Lord knows what JMS means by that!

And I had forgotten about the Vorlons, bless their encounter-suited little hearts.

So by the time Sinclair left: Delenn was NOT pregnant (not even kissed), no fire and darkness. so how accurate is the fire and darkness?

Barrie

Subj: Re:Mom?
Date: 96-07-03 21:45:44 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

The figure being Delenn’s Mom is an interesting idea (and I think you and one other suggested it)

Provided we can dispense with the problem of the hair (a wig? That might shock Delenn)
and how she got access to Sheridan’s quarters, there are a few other questions this raises:

Is her appearance part of the ritual, or are ALL Minbari mothers this intrusive on their daughter’s personal lives, or just this one?

If it’s the latter, no wonder Delenn went and joined the B5 circus…to get away from mom!

Seriously, given Delenn and Vir’s comments about the Minbari, I really can’t see her mom behaving so.

ATA, I’m really excited that we’ll find out more about Delenn’s parents soon. I’ve often wondered about her family and how they figured into all of this.

Barrie

Subj: Re:One down?
Date: 96-07-03 21:46:07 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

>>Remember the “I will *watch* and catch you if you should fall” line from “Messages from Earth? Think she could count that as #1? ;)<<

Now that I’ve had a little time to think about this statement, I have some thoughts about it (short ones!!)

When she initially said this, I thought it was a rather interesting remark. I wondered if she was testing out how he would react to the idea of her watching him sleep. Because humans don’t have this custom, she might have wondered what reactions he might have and how she would have to approach the situation to get him to go along. We don’t know how critical this custom is to her. (Just how many customs are there she will insist upon or relinquish for the relationship?) She may have waited longer than normal among the Minbari to do this custom, just because of the different values and reactions in the human culture about men and women sharing accomodations, watching each other sleep or sleeping with each other.

Barrie

Subj: General & The price…again
Date: 96-07-03 21:46:48 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
Welcome Rhianydd and SMPTrek (our UK friend!)

I hear the show is quite popular there. And glad you told us about the status of what you are seeing: I had the impression you were favored of WB and were given the priv of seeing eps we have not seen. Becareful, you may find yourself cajoled, bribed, begged or whatever by the fans here for spoilers if they think you see eps before us!
We try to posts spoiler warnings, but as you can see, once we get into a topic, we really thrash it out. And we do speculate, but try to hold fast to the guidelines about posting plot ideas so that JMS, if he’s lurking- he hasn’t shown is keyboard here in along time- can read safely. As long as we stay within viewed epsidoes and what they offer, we’re pretty safe.

>>If some of the information that Delenn is witholding turns out to be that she’s pregnant (this would be down the road a bit), maybe part of the “terrible price” could involve the loss of their first baby, by kidnapping or miscarriage or something, just as David and Bathsheba’s firstborn died as the price of their adultery<<

JMS didn’t say *when* Delenn would pay dearly, IMHOI thought it would occur during the ending of season three, although I could be wrong. JMS has said Ivanova would get involved with someone and that’s likely to be next year. Delenn’s payment could be next year too, for that matter. Also, my understanding of the JMS statement was that it was in response to someone asking about Delenn’s knowledge of the Shadows. She knows more than she’s saying. Unless she shoots herself- in the foot, so to speak, and does something she knows she shouldn’t do in order to look like she doesn’t know (and cost herself the child, which I don’t think she’d do) it wouldn’t fit the profile.

Your thought touches an idea I had mulched on. With Delenn’s part human Minbari biology, just how easy would it be for her to have a child? We know she will, but we don’t know if it will be easy or difficult. It would ad a poignancy to their story.

BTW, have you guys noticed the similarity of the music played whenever we have an advance on the J&D arc? It’s a sweet, poignant melody. I’m hoping someone in the Craft of B5 will tell me if it’s Leitmotif music for them. I’m no musician, so I can only suspect due to the similarity of the melody in several arc advancing moments.

barrie

Subj: Re:Will John or Won’t He?
Date: 96-07-03 21:47:11 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
The more I think about it, the more I LIKE the idea of John NOT telling Delenn for the reasons given by Diane. John loves to collect secrets and conspiracies, so far only dark and deadly ones. This is one secret he can actually enjoy and delight in, his son. He may have a hard time restraining himself, but I’m imagining him telling her after David is born. Or maybe he won’t tell her until 17 years later. I can see Delenn II confronting him about why he never mentioned David in the past, since she DID tell him in “plenty of time.”

“Surprise, Surprise!”
Barrie

Subj: Re:John- will he or won’t he
Date: 96-07-04 01:14:13 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<There’s no evidence that Delenn saw who was at the door in her flashforward (she saw herself looking at the door) or even has a clue to who it was.>>
Delenn supposedly studied every nuance of Sheridan’s life from the moment he came aboard. I think she knows what his wife looks like.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-04 01:17:51 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< For all his faults, Kirk was no Tiberius – ever read or see “I,Claudius”?>>
Yeah, but he never lived as long, either. Tiberius wasn’t that bad when he was Kirk’s age. Just a great conqueror that the authority back home was afraid to give too much power to, so much so that he was “demoted” to an island.
Come to think of it…

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-04 01:19:06 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Hot flash, Claudius himself was also a Tiberius.>>
Or, more accurately, Tiberius was a Claudian. They had virtually the same name, but “Claudius” was the last name.

Subj: Fire and Darkness
Date: 96-07-04 10:16:33 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

I think Delenn is getting her ideas of fire and darkness from the Minbari rebirth ceremony as stated in “Parliment of Dreams” which is an account of Valen as “The One” and “the Nine” which I believe is the Grey Council. “Will you follow me into fire? Into Darkness? Into Death….and the Nine said yes”. There was also a comment in there about “preparing the way for the One to be” or something like that!

Subj: Re:Sigma 9 Outlier ending
Date: 96-07-04 10:55:11 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Barrie —

I agree completely. The more I think about the theory that MG might be playing Sheridan’s soul, the more I like it. Or soulmate… or something like that. JMS IS too clever to telegraph a scene in so straight a line. There’s definitely a plot twist coming. Similar to the now-held belief by most that John will not die physically at Z’ha’dum.

Good tome!

— barb

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-04 10:58:07 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>JMS says the “accuracies” of the prophecies ended when Sinclair went back in time.<<

Well, now, I hadn’t heard that one (or accidently skipped reading it). That puts a real “crapshoot” order to the future, doesn’t it? :)

Nice way to keep us guessing throughout the 5-year arc, eh?

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn’s mom or daughter
Date: 96-07-04 10:59:32 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Yeah, but how did the person get so easily into John’s room? I still think the soul hypothesis merits attention.

— barb

Subj: Re:John- will he or won’t he
Date: 96-07-04 11:05:10 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I’m not sure Delenn didn’t see who was at the door — after all, WE didn’t, but she might have, dramatic plot devices being what they are, and all.

Subj: Re: Why Zahadum?
Date: 96-07-04 11:06:41 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Interesting idea — I like it!

And welcome to the best B5 board on the internet :)

— barb

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-04 11:09:18 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>Kosh gave Sheridan a prophecy concerning the coming of David in
TATHL,<<

Geez, there’s another gap in my show history — I didn’t know that. So when Delenn 17 years from now tells him their son is David, John’s smile could also have been because he remembered Kosh’s prophecy?

Cool.

— barb

Subj: Re: Leitmotif
Date: 96-07-04 11:13:21 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Well, Barrie, whether it’s intended as a Leitmotif or not, it certainly is being used like one. Take a listen to Wagner’s Ring Cycle and you’ll know what I mean.

What I never realized was how early the J&D music started — way back to Divided Loyalties and shows like that, when D&J were talking in the garden, I noticed that music. Interesting… :)

— barb

Subj: Savoring the moment
Date: 96-07-04 11:44:23 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
ShePsych has been concerned that John is not savoring the moments as he should. Well, maybe he will, but not with Delenn.

spoiler re com clips




‘;’





I like the idea of him getting away from the “office” to think. There’s no privacy on B5. He has a lot to think about, and at the end of the day, one is too tired. I’m really banking on his creative intelligence (that got him through the Trigatti and that destructive alien probe) to go to work on concerns about Londo and why David needs to be safe (BTW, JMS says in the Lurker synopsis that part of Delenn’s interrogation concerned David).

But he also needs to be alone to savor his happiness. How often do we get good news that we just wanted to smile about before we let the world in on our pleasure? I can just see him out in space, grinning from ear to ear, letting his good feelings and thoughts bubble up and having the privacy to enjoy it for a while without having anybody harrass him about what he’s so happy about. That’s savoring the moment. And an important one if he is to be able to take the next step with Delenn.

Barrie

Subj: Mom?
Date: 96-07-04 12:27:58 EDT
From: SallyS5000
Posted on: America Online

The person at the door with long hair was…..David?
Marcus has long hair as do some of the rangers. or maybe David just went transvestite. Grin. 😉

Subj: the Many Anna’s
Date: 96-07-04 15:04:04 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
In the middle of the night I got another idea for how Anna could appear on the show.

Anna is alive (classic and most accepted version of how Anna will appear in the story)
Anna as a data crystal (started in Revelations, but no one has mentioned there being any more such “videos” of her)
Anna as a dream (new, I thought of this after doing the marathon post about Sigma 9 Outlier. If John is going to go to Za’ha’dum, he’ll think of it in relationship to Anna. What if he dreams about her? People do dream on B5. That’s a way she can be in the story without a major magilla (sic) of an incident.

any thoughts?

Barrie

Subj: Re:The Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-04 18:24:26 EDT
From: Zembala
Posted on: America Online

Has anybody considered that the terrible price Sheridan pays for going to Z’ha’dum is that *he* becomes a Shadows puppet for awhile? This would certainly be a major plot twist (as JMS has hinted), would result in a “loss of innocence” and would break him & Delenn up for a while. Of course we have the comfort that they do get back together again sometime in the next 17 years.

Subj: Re:The KISS
Date: 96-07-04 20:17:22 EDT
From: BoxBoots
Posted on: America Online

The only kiss I saw (so far) is the one Delenn gave Sheridan. She nearly knocked him over, she hit him with such force. Can’t say that I blame her……………Sigh

Subj: Re:Their attraction
Date: 96-07-04 20:19:46 EDT
From: BoxBoots
Posted on: America Online

If JMS would write it in, Sheridan could handle a hot relationship very easily.

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-04 21:09:55 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<JMS’s weasel word in this case may be “knowledge” – he said something to the effect that Valen has no more knowledge (as in direct experience?) of the future than what Sinclair “lived through” in the 23rd century, but that doesn’t preclude a revelation (supernatural/Vorlon-originated/whatever) from a non-Sinclair source, does it? As you pointed out in one of your postings, Kosh gave Sheridan a prophecy concerning the coming of David in TATHL, so Vorlons surely could have contributed to Valen’s predictions. I suspect that there are still more facets to Valen’s prophecies than we have yet heard about.>>

I just had a nasty feeling…Kosh may well have been around when Valen appeared!

Macker

Subj: Re:David
Date: 96-07-05 00:30:00 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Speaking of “Parliament of Dreams,” I was watching it again the other day. When Sinclair and Catherine sit down to eat at the restaurant, the maitre d’ tells them, “Your waiter will be David.” That gave me a chuckle.

Subj: Re:David
Date: 96-07-05 10:36:39 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

>>Speaking of “Parliament of Dreams,” I was watching it again the other day. When Sinclair and Catherine sit down to eat at the restaurant, the maitre d’ tells them, “Your waiter will be David.” That gave me a chuckle.<< No fair! I was gonna post that today! :-) Something else though…everyone keeps pondering just how Anna is gonna let herself in…uh, running B5 gag apparently.

In “Parliment of Dreams”, Catherine Sakai (Sinclair’s ladyfriend) lets herself into Sinclair’s quarters. When he finds her waiting for him in the room he says “How did you get in here?” and she replies something like “You really ought to change your pass code more often” Now, didn’t Ivanova say that to Sheridan sometime during 2nd season too?! If John is still using the same passcode as he did in the past, perhaps Anna just lets herself in cuz it’s the same one he’s *always* used. It’s not so far fetched….I always use the same PIN number for my ATM card no matter where I live (and I’ve lived in 4 separate cities in the last 15 years) cuz it’s easier to remember!

Subj: Re:The Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-05 14:27:26 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Now that’s an intriguing thought, and one I hadn’t thought of.

— barb

Subj: How Does She Open That Door?
Date: 96-07-05 17:48:30 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<In “Parliment of Dreams”, Catherine Sakai (Sinclair’s ladyfriend) lets herself into Sinclair’s quarters. When he finds her waiting for him in the room he says “How did you get in here?” and she replies something like “You really ought to change your pass code more often” Now, didn’t Ivanova say that to Sheridan sometime during 2nd season too?! >>

We seem to have a B5 contradiction here. In “A Race through Dark Places”, at least according to the Lurker synopsis(I just don’t remember – I missed part of that episode), John needed a card to activate his door. (” An exhausted Sheridan approaches his quarters and attempts to use his card to open the door.”) Frankly, with the military/security POV being the way it is, I opt for the card plus PIN. And let me tell you, *you* don’t pick that PIN – it’s given to you, and it is keyed to one and only one card. I’ll bet that the military mindset won’t change by the 23rd century, and B5 is first of all a military installation.

And I don’t buy the *real* Anna sneaking into John’s room in the middle of the night for any reason, even if she knew his PIN and that was all that was needed to open the door. The genuine, “good” Anna Sheridan would know that John believed her dead. What kind of a loving wife, knowing her husband thought she’d been dead for four years, would stage a comeback by stealing into her sleeping husband’s bed? Shock can kill, and that would be a massive shock. It’s from the plot of a (bad) Shelley Long movie, called “Hello Again”, and not worthy of JMS. This single point makes me sure that whoever is at the door, it’s not John’s Anna, and I’ll frankly be disillusioned with JMS if he tries to put that over on us. It just does not make sense on a psychological basis, based upon the little we know of Anna from the video she sent to John’s sister. She obviously loved John, and she wouldn’t come back in that way if she were in her right mind.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-05 18:00:20 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Hot flash, Claudius himself was also a Tiberius.>>

True enough – Claudius was Tiberius’s nephew – but I doubt Roddenberry said to himself, “I’ll use Tiberius as Kirk’s middle name so that they’ll be reminded of the good emperor from “I,Claudius”!.

<<Tiberius wasn’t that bad when he was Kirk’s age.>>

However well Tiberius started out, that’s not how history remembers him. You can say
the same thing about Henry VIII – he was quite promising as a young man, but everyone’s knee jerk reaction when his name is mentioned today is – oh,yeah, the one with six wives, and he killed
several of them!

Roddenberry or the ST/Paramount research dept slipped up big time on that one.

Subj: Re:John- will he or won’t he
Date: 96-07-05 18:11:16 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<I’m not sure Delenn didn’t see who was at the door — after all, WE didn’t, but she might have, dramatic plot devices being what they are, and all. >>

The light seemed to be coming from behind the woman at the door. I wonder how Delenn *could* have seen her face – it would seem to me that Delenn would have seen only her silhouette against the light…dramatic pause…like seeing the mystery woman’s Shadow !

Subj: Re:the Many Anna’s
Date: 96-07-05 18:17:50 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<another idea for how Anna could appear on the show..If John is going to go to Za’ha’dum, he’ll think of it in relationship to Anna. What if he dreams about her?>>>

Could be, Barrie, and JMS is sneaky enough to do it that way, but that doesn’t explain Delenn’s time flash. She was the one who “saw” the woman at the door, not John, and heard what most
of us have agreed is Melissa Gilbert’s voice. I still think Gilbert will play Anna when the
time comes for Anna to appear – Gilbert’s a starring actress, Anna would be a major role even
as a one or two time thing, so…

Martha

 

Subj: Re:The Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-05 19:12:42 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Has anybody considered that the terrible price Sheridan pays for going to Z’ha’dum is that *he* becomes a Shadows puppet for awhile? >>

It seems to me that when one becomes a Shadow puppet, one *stays* a Shadow puppet. Sheridan told Bester that they(humans/Minbari/other non-ancient races, presumably) had no technology that could remove the cyber implants in Carolyn’s and the other telepaths’ skulls. Maybe the Vorlons have such technology, but would they use it? – Getting Kosh to act took a major effort on the part of Delenn (when she managed to persuade him to reveal himself & save John’s life when the Centauri were trying to kill him, for instance) and John had to harangue, insult, beg Kosh to get the Vorlons to attack the Shadows openly. And Kosh was supposed to be what passes as a *friendly* Vorlon…his replacement may be less amenable, who knows? (Of course, there *is* Draal and the great machine – what else can it do besides rift time?)

The organic implanted(?) Keeper of Londo would also seem hard to eliminate…sort of like those nasty little worms Khan used in “ST:The Wrath of Khan.” (BTW, did anybody but me notice how
much Londo’s keeper in repose looked like ET? Very disconcerting when we found out just what it really was.)

Whether Morden is a willing or unwilling Shadow henchman is something we don’t know; presumably some of their operatives are in sympathy with the Shadow’s aims. If John seems to become a Shadow slave, I would tend to agree with whoever(sorry – I can’t locate the posting right now) suggested that he might fake it to gain information, save or avenge Anna, whatever.

Subj: Did he tell?
Date: 96-07-05 19:58:40 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

I don’t think he did, at least not in very specific terms. I think if John had returned to 2260 and had told her at any point that they discussed this in 2277, I don’t think she would have been so vague about the conversation they had. “You told me you saw this moment in our future, but until now I never believed it.” or something like that.

Subj: Re:the Many Anna’s
Date: 96-07-05 21:11:19 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

but don’t forget MG is going to be in two epsiodes, one light, one dark.

I don’t think it will be anna in both eps. but a different role

My bet is on the minbari slumber party ep is the non-anna role.

Subj: Re:Why Za’ha’dum?
Date: 96-07-05 21:12:41 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

WE’ve been talking about the impact of Za’ha’dum on John and the war, etc. In Comes the Inquisitor, at the very beginning, Lennier made a comment that was very Minbari, but also very true. In talking about Kosh’s testing of Delenn to be sure the right people are in the right place at the right time, he said that

Whenever the “right thing” is done for the wrong reason, the work becomes corrupted, impure. So what does that mean here?

It may be the “right thing” to drive the Shadows from their homeworld. The Minbari did this a thousand years ago. Presumably for the “right” reason.

But in SOZ, after learning about what happened to the Icarus, John told Kosh he wanted to go to Za’ha’dum, I had the definite feeling he wanted revenge. That may NOT be the right motive.

John is being warned about going. Could it be because he will corrupt the work by doing it for the wrong reason? Could he set events into place that would not be had his motives been different? If his motives were “proper”, would he “die”? Is he doing the right thing for the wrong reason and therefore, for Za’ha’dum, is not the right person, in the right place at the right time?

Could this be the terrible price?

 

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-05 21:13:01 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
>> Come on–give me some alternative line of reasoning to convince me I’m wrong! Being morbid again–if someone has to go, let it be one of the “minors.”<<

I’m in favor of it being a minor character! Talia left becaue the actress wanted out. Has anyone heard that Jerry Doyle wants out? Not me! Otherwise all those who have been killed have been minor characters — even though Kosh might seem major, he wasn’t identifiable enough to romance the fans.

Garibaldi is too strongly liked. I don’t think JMS would kill off anyone of the 5 primary lead characters: Sheridan, Delenn, Ivanova, Garibaldi or Franklin.

 

Subj: Re:The Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-05 21:38:24 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Has anybody considered that the terrible price Sheridan pays for going to Z’ha’dum is that *he* becomes a Shadows puppet for awhile? >>

One more point that occurred to me after I had posted a response to the above. John as a Shadow puppet is *way* too close to Picard as Locutus of Borg from STTNG. I think JMS would be aware of that – he seems to be sensitive to any suggestion that he’s using material all ready
used in the Star Trek mythology. I saw a posting of his where he got rather shirty about it, and
the B5 plot point referred to that had a Star Trek analogy was really very minor, compared to the major plot turn of a corrupted hero a la Sheridan/Shadow – Picard/Borg.

Since I’m talking of Shadow puppets – I made an interesting observation this evening while watching the repeat of “Interludes and Examinations”. What I thought were the Shadows – those
arachnoid creatures that come to talk with Morden – are maybe *not* the Shadows. The reason
I say this – Morden argued with *and* overruled them – they wanted to kill Londo right away
because he was trying to back out of the alliance, but Morden said something to the effect of –
No – not now – we need him. And so Londo wasn’t killed.

I doubt that Morden would dare to question the Shadows, his overseers and masters, and he certainly couldn’t overrule them. So, what *do* the Shadows look like? Are they those beings with the big crania who were shown operating on Bester’s girlfriend in her memory of her abduction(SoT)? (Very similar to the current day UFO abduction stories, wasn’t that?) Or are they something else?

One possibility – as Satan was once an angel, as Tolkien’s Gandalf and Sauron were beings of the same kind, maybe the Vorlons and the Shadows are two sides of the same coin. That might
explain why the Vorlons are still hanging around, instead of having gone to join the other Ancient Ones. The Vorlons feel some sort of responsiblity to the rest of the galaxy because the Shadows were once part of them. Just a thought…

Subj: Re:Comicon–The Kiss
Date: 96-07-05 22:02:57 EDT
From: Banya
Posted on: America Online

I also agree that consummation of relationships did not contribute to the demise of shows like Moonlighting. On the contrary, it seemed as though the finalizing of the relationship was used to bolster a show dying from lack of interesting plot lines and quite frankly from the lack of interest on the part of the stars – they were ready to move on.

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-05 22:06:24 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<I don’t think JMS would kill off anyone of the 5 primary lead characters: Sheridan, Delenn, Ivanova, Garibaldi or Franklin. >>

I don’t either – we know Sheridan and Delenn, Vir and Londo and G’Kar are still around in 2277. As for Ivanova, Garibaldi, and Franklin – B5 needs people to fulfill their functions: 2nd in command , Security Chief, Head of Med Lab (well, he was, and probably will be again – but maybe his drug addiction is greasing the skids for his departure – of the major characters, if someone has to be sacrificed, Franklin is the most likely at this point. Though of course both he and Ivanova are
representing their racial/gender groups, aren’t they?) Marcus or Zack or Lennier? – of those three, the second might be destined to buy the farm – he isn’t essential, as Marcus is as representative Ranger and Lennier as the only full Minbari on board.

It’s late in the game (4th year out of 5) to bring in a new character and expect him or her to catch on with the audience. And why bother when a replacement would *have* to be introduced just to
have a warm body to keep the station running, or serve a function as a archetype?
Just to emphasize that war is hell isn’t a good enough motivation, in my book. And neither
is just to shake up the audience.

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As to Talia Winters – I saw a posting purporting to be an account of a British TV show where
Jerry Doyle and his wife, whose name escapes me, but who played Talia, were interviewed.
The Doyles said that Talia *would* be back on B5 as a character in year 5.

Martha
Subj: Re:John- will he or won’t he
Date: 96-07-05 22:22:16 EDT
From: Banya
Posted on: America Online

I would be disappointed if The romance had swept along like a blitz kreig. John and Delenn are not exactly hormone driven teenagers. They are mature adults, with many responsibilties that must transcend their own wishes at times. As far as “telling” about their experiences in the future, I recall Delenn’s comment, when asked why she had not told of the Babylon 4 business, ” I was afraid to talk about it for fear I would change the future” ( or words to that effect)

Subj: Re:How Does She Open That Do
Date: 96-07-06 00:18:25 EDT
From: Badinov
Posted on: America Online

>> The genuine, “good” Anna Sheridan would know that John believed her dead. What kind of a loving wife, knowing her husband thought she’d been dead for four years, would stage a comeback by stealing into her sleeping husband’s bed? Shock can kill, and that would be a massive shock.<<

Once again your’re presuming that this particular entrance is Anna’s first. I contend that she has been around for a short while, a couple of days perhaps, before this particular scene unfolds.

Badinov

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-06 01:33:16 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<Hot flash, Claudius himself was also a Tiberius.>>
Mythophile responds:
<< Or, more accurately, Tiberius was a Claudian. They had virtually the same name, but “Claudius” was the last name.>>

I knew you’d set us straight on this one, Mythophile. Please correct me if I’m wrong: the whole litany of the Emporer Claudius’ name was Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero–right? It’s been bugging me, and that’s what keeps running through my head. (Guess I should break down and unpack the box of books with the Robert Graves stuff in it.)
As far as this whole Tiberius-as-role-model discussion goes, just remember, original Trek aired before the BBC’s adaptation of I Claudius, and I’d bet Roddenberry never read the books. Tiberius was just a handy imperial name, I’d bet–recognizable, but not famous like Julius Caesar or notorius like Caligula or Nero.

Subj: Shadow puppets
Date: 96-07-06 01:43:51 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<Since I’m talking of Shadow puppets – I made an interesting observation this evening while watching the repeat of “Interludes and Examinations”. What I thought were the Shadows – those
arachnoid creatures that come to talk with Morden – are maybe *not* the Shadows. The reason
I say this – Morden argued with *and* overruled them – they wanted to kill Londo right away
because he was trying to back out of the alliance, but Morden said something to the effect of –
No – not now – we need him. And so Londo wasn’t killed.

I doubt that Morden would dare to question the Shadows, his overseers and masters, and he certainly couldn’t overrule them. >>

I questioned JMS about this on the Ask JMS board, I believe, and he responded that Morden didn’t really overrule the decision of the Shadows, but, rather, offered constructive criticism. This was, he said, a major reason the Shadows kept a puppet like Morden around–to give them human input on their actions and decisions. IMHO it seemed like Morden was throwing his weight around, but apparently that was not JMS’ intention in the scene.

Subj: Re:How Does She Open That Do
Date: 96-07-06 01:46:38 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<Once again your’re presuming that this particular entrance is Anna’s first. I contend that she has been around for a short while, a couple of days perhaps, before this particular scene unfolds.>>

How could Delenn be so tasteless as to initiate the three-night ritual just as John’s wife returns? I can’t believe she’d carry through with it if Anna had already put in an appearance. After all, she apparently had no qualms about cancelling the rebirth ceremony in Ceremonies.

 

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-06 04:44:02 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<However well Tiberius started out, that’s not how history remembers him. You can say
the same thing about Henry VIII – he was quite promising as a young man, but everyone’s knee jerk reaction when his name is mentioned today is – oh,yeah, the one with six wives, and he killed several of them!>>
Actually, the jury’s still out on Tiberius. Suetonius was the only historian that really had it in for him, and everyone’s agreed that out in the provinces Tiberius’ reign was a rather good one. It was only back in Rome that things really stunk, and only for the upper class. Robert Graves popularized this notion of “nasty Tiberius” but historically he’s been considered one of the better emperors. It could even be argued that most of the nastier “public” acts in Rome (the treason trials, etc) were more due to Tiberius’ naivety (he really was out of it) than his vindictiveness.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-06 04:48:59 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Please correct me if I’m wrong: the whole litany of the Emporer Claudius’ name was Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero–right? It’s been bugging me, and that’s what keeps running through my head. (Guess I should break down and unpack the box of books with the Robert Graves stuff in it.)>>
Without looking it up, I believe that his full name was “Tiberius Claudius Nero Drusus Germanicus” – prior to all the additional stuff like “Caesar” that was added after he became emperor. Claudius was what we’d call his last name (the second name – the nomen, family name), Tiberius his personal name/praenomen, and the rest his various cognomens – formalized nicknames. Tiberius certainly had the same praenomen and nomen “Tiberius Claudius” and probably had all the same nicknames… I believe “Germanicus” was inherited from Tiberius’ father rather than Claudius’, so they probably shared that one too.

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-07-06 09:29:31 EDT
From: HelenBMI
Posted on: America Online

I believe that JMS has said in one of his postings that Kosh *did* know Valen “from way back.”

Subj: Re:Vorlons/Shadows
Date: 96-07-06 13:54:57 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I’d thought of that, too. In the footsteps of other great allegorical good/evil stories, it fits.

— barb

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-06 13:56:40 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Response to spoiler…
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>>The Doyles said that Talia *would* be back on B5 as a character in year 5.<<

Now, THAT’s interesting. I wonder if she’ll be back as good or evil. If they’ve undone the PsiCorps effect, I wonder if she and Susan will rekindle their relationship. Hmmmm.
Subj: Re:How Does She Open That Do
Date: 96-07-06 14:58:48 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<your’re presuming that this particular entrance is Anna’s first. I contend that she has been around for a short while, a couple of days perhaps, before this particular scene unfolds.>>

So why was Delenn so shocked if that’s the case? You’ve got to admit that she displayed a strong reaction considering she’s usually so dignified and unshakeable. If Anna was around for awhile, she must have made Delenn believe that it was over for her(Anna) and John, making Delenn feel secure, so then when Anna sneaks in in the middle of the night we get the dropped snow globe from Delenn. And it is sneaky, not ringing the bell, when she must have realized Delenn might be with John, and is definitely involved with him, unless you’re also saying John didn’t bother to mention his involvement with Delenn to Anna, or Anna’s reappearance to Delenn? I doubt that would happen – Sheridan doesn’t impress me as a liar or a two-timer – “No more lies – no more Night Watch(i.e., deceipt) on my station”. (Anna: “John, you must have believed me dead. Is there anyone else?” – A natural question to ask, no? – John: “No one else.” – no way!) Anyway, the man’s fighting a war, he doesn’t have time to juggle two women, keeping each unaware of the other’s existence, even if he were so inclined.

No – it’s suspicious behavior on (if it’s) Anna’s part, regardless of whether it’s her 1st appearance or not. If you’re saying that Anna is trying to reconcile with John, then why would she reassure Delenn as to her good intentions, her indifference to John, to the point when Delenn really lost it when the door opened – that’s not honest, and that’s not the Anna in Liz’s video, the Anna who lives on in Sheridan’s memory as a happy experience. And if Anna was upfront with Delenn – “I want John back – he’s *my* husband and I intend to stay his wife” – then again, why would Delenn be startled at Anna coming into John’s room? Delenn does not impress me as naive – she’s a realist to the Nth degree. You might try to say she’s acting as a Minbari, unable to interpret human behavior. Well, she’s not all Minbari now, and she’s not stupid in any event. A territorial grab is a territorial grab, whether it’s Centauri overrunning the Narn home world, or a male/female situation. It won’t wash, in light of the personalities of all 3 characters as they’ve been depicted. The (presumed) Anna at the door is not acting as the real Anna would.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-06 15:01:50 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<remember, original Trek aired before the BBC’s adaptation of I Claudius, and I’d bet Roddenberry never read the books. Tiberius was just a handy imperial name >>

That’s as good an explanation as any, though I don’t think it could happen today. I’ve read
about the lengths networks/studios go to when checking out character names. Fear of
litigation, or to keep just such a situation as James Tiberius Kirk from occurring again.

Subj: Re:Shadow puppets
Date: 96-07-06 15:03:29 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<I questioned JMS about this on the Ask JMS board, I believe, and he responded that Morden didn’t really overrule the decision of the Shadows, but, rather, offered constructive criticism. This was, he said, a major reason the Shadows kept a puppet like Morden around–to give them human input on their actions and decisions. IMHO it seemed like Morden was throwing his weight around, but apparently that was not JMS’ intention in the scene.>>

Add MHO to yours – Morden came on *way* too strong for someone in his situation.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-06 16:28:39 EDT
From: Sandi94839
Posted on: America Online

No, you misunderstand, his full name was Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-07 01:55:50 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I can’t get over your ability to keep track of these Roman names!

Subj: book re Mira
Date: 96-07-07 03:06:14 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
I recently found that book several of you have been talking about and read the chapter on the “Actress Who Lost her Country” and cried. I wanted to give her a hug. What an ordeal they went through. Now I wonder what came first, the character of Delenn or Mira? They are more alike than I thought. Mira is just incredible and I hope she is finding peace in her heart now after all of that ordeal.

I hope that someday we will overcome those *nasties* in human nature that make us treat one another so cruelly so that there are no more Shadows to fight. We can’t let the work of JMS be in vain, can we?

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-07 04:02:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<No, you misunderstand, his full name was Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus>>
Yeah, no sooner had I posted that than I remembered that Drusus had to come before Nero (but it didn’t seem to warrent a correction on my part). It’s obvious really, because his father was called Claudius Drusus… the earlier cognomens would be the more hereditary.

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-07 07:28:32 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

Since when did this become a Tiberius Board?? :) :)

Macker

Subj: If This Isn’t Love…
Date: 96-07-07 12:40:21 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

The following interpretations of Delenn’s behavior, what she’s said and done with
respect to John Sheridan and their relationship, are certainly tenable, IMHO. So here’s my
defense of Delenn as a woman in love; go ahead and enjoy it, criticize it, or forgive it
(especially its length), as you will.

(Part 1 of 3)
Some have questioned Delenn’s sincerity with respect to her love for John; they say
she’s merely going through the motions, manipulating Sheridan in order to fulfill prophecy
and attain her ends, laudable as those ends might be. The charitable reading of her
conduct from this point of view is that Delenn is somehow deluding herself, making
herself believe that she loves John so that Valen’s prophecies are satisfied. This is, to put
it kindly, an exceedingly odd explanation of the behavior of a woman who is otherwise a
consummate realist, certainly the most clear-thinking individual from her world in the
23rd century.
The alternate, and more cynical interpretation of her demeanor that these skeptics
advance is that, bluntly stated, Delenn is quite brazenly lying to John. This, however,
negates the fact, as stated by JMS himself, that Minbari don’t lie except to save another’s
honor. (Withholding information is *not* lying!) Remember, Delenn made the first
advances in this love affair- she fell for John first, then he fell in love with her before he
realized what was happening, as he himself said in the Rebirth Ceremony (in “Ceremonies
of Light and Dark”). He’s in no way a James T. Kirk, hitting on Delenn as soon as she
first came into his line-of-sight. So whatever Delenn was doing in the beginning of their
romance, she certainly wasn’t doing it to spare Sheridan’s pride! And could a liar put up a
front as convincing as the feelings Delenn displays – in her eyes, in her tone of voice, in the
tender expression on her face, through her body language – whenever she’s with John?
(These are not normal Minbari reactions to another person’s presence – watch Delenn with
Lennier, or with Garibaldi, should you doubt it.) If she’s simply faking it, then Delenn is a
better actress than Mira Furlan, Meryl Streep, and Vanessa Redgrave put together. I don’t
know about you people, but one adjective I would *not* apply to the Minbari is
“histrionic”.
Those who see Delenn as a callous manipulator of John might also consider the
fact that she really believes with all her heart in the inevitability of Valen’s predictions.
Why would she even consider scheming and lying to fulfill a prophecy that she thinks of as
kismet, fate, destiny, foreordained, what *will* happen? The fix is in, as far as she’s
concerned! Sure, she’d have gone into the relationship even if she hadn’t fallen in love,
much as royalty once contracted arranged marriages for the good of the state, but the
alliance with the One Who Will Be would have been formal on her part, with no pretense.
I really believe that Delenn is delighted that John is someone that is easy for her to love,
and very grateful that amidst all the pain and darkness that is present and still to come, at
least one part of Valen’s prophecy is bringing her so much joy. Literally one of a kind,
Delenn is *not* alone as long as she has John in her life.
(continued …)
Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love
Date: 96-07-07 12:41:20 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

(Part 2 of 3)
When the many times Delenn has saved John’s life at the risk of her own are
pointed out, the doubter’s response is “Delenn would do the same for anyone.” Yes, she
would, but she certainly saves Sheridan’s life *enthusiastically*, doesn’t she? The
impassioned reactions she manifests whenever John is endangered mark her feelings for
him as strong and genuine emotions, as others besides me have written. She almost
frantically cries out John’s name whenever he is in jeopardy, and only physical restraint, as
by Marcus on the bridge of the White Star in the first part of “War without End”, keeps
her from running to John’s side to protect him. And even if one insists on discounting as
“not yet reality” Sheridan’s time flash, when Delenn’s overwhelming love is poured out for
John and all of us to behold (and that’s assuming the time flash is only one of many
possible futures, ignoring the fact that JMS has confirmed that this is the future that will
be), these more blatant instances are not the only times when Delenn’s passion for John
shines brightly so that anyone can recognize it, if he or she will really listen and observe.
In the episode “Severed Dreams”, when Delenn presents her ultimatum to the Earth
Force ships preparing to attack Babylon 5, she speaks of John in this way: “Only one
human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me.” One can
sense her pride in John in these words; he is the *only* human able to militarily defeat the
best of her world, something even Sinclair couldn’t do. (And I’ll bet she is on some
primitive level delighted that it was *John* who destroyed the Minbari flag ship,
thoroughly humiliating the Warrior Caste – they’ve certainly done nothing but throw
obstacles in her path!) I also can’t help wondering here about Delenn’s increasing use of
English idioms – after all, she did know that a sudden fearful reaction with no apparent
cause is described as “someone walking over my grave”. And so, we have “He is behind
me” with its suggestion of “He is behind me all the way”, and not as simply a literal
statement of the Minbari position before Babylon 5, perhaps?
It is, paradoxically, her attitude towards Sinclair in the two “War without End”
episodes that to me most eloquently reveals the depths of her feelings for Sheridan.
Remember, this is the *first* time Delenn has seen Sinclair since she received Valen’s
letter confirming their dual identity as the greatest figure in Minbari history. (She may
have been almost sure before this of who Sinclair is, but to see it affirmed in Valen’s own
words and handwriting…) Consider how you might feel and act if the holiest person in
your religion, or the human being you most admire from earth’s past were suddenly right
there with you, in the flesh – Christ or Moses, Washington or Gandhi, for instance. Well,
as far as I can gather, Valen is all these people rolled into one for the Minbari: a political
and spiritual messiah. So with this idea in mind, reflect on the following WWE scenes
and Delenn’s words, attitudes, and actions in them.
As the White Star is moving through the temporal rift on its dangerous and
crucially important mission, and the ship is experiencing turbulence and its crew
discomfort from time distortion, it is not Sinclair/Valen that Delenn turns to for solace and
companionship. It is John whose chair she stands beside as always, then he reaches out to
her and they clasp hands. (It was a lovely touch on JMS’s part, wasn’t it, having Sinclair
turn around, see the two of them, and smile that slight smile as he recognized what’s going
on? This was certainly the genesis of Valen’s prophecy concerning Delenn and the “One”
person she is destined for.)
(continued…)

Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love…
Date: 96-07-07 12:42:48 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

(Part 3 of 3)
Later in WWEI, as Delenn is staring out the view port into space, a forlorn look in
her eyes, after John has been lost in time, Sinclair comes over to her. She says to him,
“This was not part of the plan.” Is it reaching to read a reproach to Sinclair (almost
anger?) in those words and in the expression on Mira Furlan’s face as she delivers the line?
After all, when Valen wrote the letter to Delenn telling of the taking of Babylon 4, he
*knew* that Sheridan had been pulled out of time; why couldn’t Valen have warned
Delenn so she could have saved John? Illogical to blame the present Sinclair for his future
actions? Perhaps, but love isn’t always logical.
The single best illustration of how Delenn’s attitude towards Sinclair illumines her
feelings for Sheridan is for me the WWEII scene where John has reappeared on Babylon 4
and is readying his equipment for the space walk. Delenn sees that he has returned, and
hurtles down the corridor towards him calling his name, blowing past Sinclair as if he
weren’t there, to get to John and assure herself that he is all right. (I think she’d have
knocked Sinclair down if the the corridor were narrower, and he sure turned to look at her
as she flew by him on her beeline to John; here’s more fodder for Valen’s prophecy of the
union between the One Who Is and the One Who Will Be. If you’ve got the episode on
video, watch this scene again, and I’ll bet you’ll see what I mean.) Only the strongest,
most deeply felt love would elicit such a reaction: forgetting any respect or reverence due
the Minbari messiah in order to reach the man that she loves with her whole heart. And
while familiarity may indeed breed contempt for some, she assuredly feels both respect and
awe as well as friendship and sympathy for Valen/Sinclair. It’s just that by this point,
where John’s well-being is concerned, Delenn has the one-track mind of a woman who’s
got it bad!
So there we have it. Delenn is delusional – she’s deceiving herself, or Delenn is
dishonest – she’s deceiving John, or Delenn is truthful – she really loves the guy (thanks,
C.S.Lewis). When we consider what the first two possibilities entail with respect to her
character – remembering that this is a person who, before anyone else in her world, read
the omens of things to come and interpreted them correctly; a person who has willingly
put herself through hell to defend the Light; a person who will continue to offer herself as
a living sacrifice to her cause; a person who is ready to die before seeing her task
accomplished if her death can somehow advance that cause – well, neither double-
dealing nor neurotic is a descriptor that I’d use for such an individual.
Of course I as well as others have written about the dangers of over-analysis, of
seeing meanings that are just not there, of falling into one of JMS’s insidious traps, and
maybe I’m sometimes guilty of that in this posting. But I don’t buy the argument some
might offer that in attributing certain motives to Delenn, I am just anthropomorphizing her.
How are we to relate to any non-human being except through our own experiences?
Maybe that’s a limitation of our species, but it’s also the way humans are. I know that I
rapidly lose any interest in extraterrestrials, elves, or angels with completely impenetrable
purposes, with no recognizable characteristics that I as a human share. A scifi or fantasy
writer who does not invest his or her characters with any traits that an audience can
connect with and understand is not performing one of a writer’s two most important jobs
(plot development being the other). The B5 scenes as I’ve interpreted them are so
subtly and skillfully written, so multi-leveled, so successful at illuminating Delenn’s
personality, that my considerable admiration for JMS’s talent has grown even greater.
Add to that Mira Furlan’s brilliant acting, and we the audience are fortunate to experience their collaboration in the creation of Delenn

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-07 13:25:36 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Garibaldi is too strongly liked. I don’t think JMS would kill off anyone of the 5 primary lead characters: Sheridan, Delenn, Ivanova, Garibaldi or Franklin. >>

At the San Diego Comic Con, JMS gave out the titles of two 4th season episodes. The first is to be called “The Hour of the Wolf” — that time between 3 and 4 in the morning, when you can’t sleep and the wolves are howling. The second episode is to be called “Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?” Jerry Doyle was also at the ComicCon for another panel on voice-over work, and dropped by to say “hello.” He also talked about how nice it was to have a 3-month vacation every year when you KNOW you have a job to come back to. Apparently, this was the first JMS had mentioned the title to him, and Jerry smiled a lot and made “oh, that’s interesting” noises. Probably what was going through his head was, “I’m not going to rise to THIS one.” Especially since Straczynski had just told a wonderful, elaborate story about a joke the entire cast had played on Jason Carter (“Marcus”) about how his character was going to die on an upcoming show — which turned out to be a practical joke.

I guess we’ll know when whatever happens actually comes to pass.
Subj: Re:Comicon–The Kiss
Date: 96-07-07 13:30:41 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

At the San Diego ComicCon, I finally saw the collection of clips from the last 5 episodes. Wow! As has been mentioned, this includes a scene in which Delenn opens a picture folder that shows John and Anna. It is followed immediately by a scene in which John grabs Delenn’s hands and appears to be talking or even shouting at her in a very intense matter. My family all agree that these two scenes do NOT look like they are part of the same “moment,” although they may be related. In the second scene, it looks more like John is very concerned about Delenn, for her safety, perhaps. But we don’t think he has angrily snatched the pictures away.
Subj: Re: Shadow Puppets
Date: 96-07-07 13:44:17 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

One thing that I keep coming back to regarding the “terrible price” is the idea of lost innocence. A pivotal moment in B5 was the “dream segment” that took place in “All Alone in the Night.” In this segment we see various characters from the show, including Ivanova, Garibaldi, Sheridan, and Kosh. Kosh is Kosh, encounter suit and all, and has more to say than we have previously heard all rolled up together. Garibaldi and Ivanova have a couple of cryptic lines to say. But Sheridan has the odd experience of seeing himself up on the scaffolding with Garibaldi, looking down with an expression on his face that can only be called “hard.” I think that this is a preview of the driven, hardened, and angry man that Sheridan will become after he has gone to Z’Ha’Dum. “Smiling John” will indeed die on Z’Ha’Dum, to be replaced by an individual we may barely recognize. And yet, it is clear from our peek ahead to 18 years later, he still loves Delenn and is loved by her — and perhaps this helps to keep him from going totally over the edge into “darkness.”

This seems very much like other mythic sagas, where the hero reaches the lowest and yet most climactic point in his innocent existence, dies, and is reborn as a more powerful, yet more distant character. Witness Luke Skywalker, after he discovers that Darth Vader is his father and he nearly dies in Cloud City. Witness Frodo in “Lord of the Rings,” who still has SOME of his innocence until he nearly dies from the bite of the giant spider Shelob — we never again have the story told from inside Frodo’s mind after that point.

I fully expect a major change in John Sheridan, very soon. Considering how much a tendency all us fans have to latch onto a character and bemoan anything that changes him or her, I hope we can grow to appreciate what John will become.
Subj: Ivanova’s Flashforward
Date: 96-07-07 14:23:24 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

Just a thought in case you are running out of things to mull over (hee hee).

WWOE #2 (coming up in 2 weeks)
When Delenn came out of her flashforward and we saw Marcus grab his head, while further into the background Susan was trying to regain her footing. So she too flashed forward.

But notice, (after playing this tape several times so I could focus on each person’s behavior separately) when they gathered around Zathras while he explains what happened, I watched Susan. Her expressions were unbelievable and she gave no appearances of really listening to Zathras. I’ve never seen a look on her face quite like that before and she was looking at Delenn the entire time, totally focused on her. I’m not sure what to make of it, but I had the impression of strong emotions: confusion? Questions? love? grief? fear? but not anger. Only when Sinclair showed up did she snap out of it. Marcus, OTOH, seemed more relaxed and able to “shift gears” and be in the moment. Interesting

In Valen’s name, I wish we had some P12 rated telepaths around to pull the info out of JMS (Just kidding, JMS!!! :) ). Given how things work, we may know or we may never know. JMS said it would be improbable to spend an episode on everyone’s flashforward. Then why let them go through it if he isn’t going to tell us about it???

Did anyone notice this about Susan and have any impressions?

 

Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love…
Date: 96-07-07 14:24:28 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Martha, as always your posts (on this topic and on Anna a few days ago) are great!!

really loved reading them, now i have to think about all this.

Subj: Re:The mystery guest
Date: 96-07-07 17:42:35 EDT
From: Lil Joan
Posted on: America Online

I am very happy with the budding relationship and like to see both characters grow. We need more romance on sci-fi. But the mystery guest is going to cause some big trouble. I feel it is going to be Sheridan’s wife-shadow using her.

Subj: Shadows Shape
Date: 96-07-07 18:49:35 EDT
From: WifeAgain
Posted on: America Online

I believe I read somewhere that jms stated the insectoid shadowshapes with Morden **are** the “Shadows”. I really do like the way they look (not like **them** mind you). It is a true “alien” look & enough insect-like to give me the willies. And Morden is in their “pay” because he is human & understands the human point of view. He wasn’t arguing or ordering them about not killing Londo…he was advising them there was a better way. And (from the Shadow viewpoint) there was. I liked Londo & hate to see him becoming what he is, but I don’t think he’s trying to trick Morden. I think he truly wants revenge & doesn’t care who else gets hurt as long as Centari are safe. I hope I’m wrong. But he should remember you can’t play with fire & not eventually get burned. Just my opinion.

Subj: New Character
Date: 96-07-07 18:54:18 EDT
From: WifeAgain
Posted on: America Online

METonkin said:”It’s late in the game (4th year out of 5) to bring in a new character and expect him or her to catch on with the audience. And why bother when a replacement would *have* to be introduced just to
have a warm body to keep the station running, or serve a function as a archetype?”

I disagree. One thing I love about B5 is the way (like life) people come & go, both the good & the bad. I enjoy all the characters (& I **do** mean characters) that are on B5. If one of my favorite characters dies or departs, I may be sad, may even cry, but — hey — the story goes on. And it’s the ONLY show I know where they film a new opening each season. That is SO unusual (& expensive). Go jms & Babylon 5!

Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love..
Date: 96-07-07 19:52:59 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Martha, you speak my sentiments exactly and your evaluations excellent! One of the problems I have struggled with concerning Delenn and the prophecies is discerning the personal incentive from the “professionalism” of the task to be done. Furthermore, I loved your final point:

>>The B5 scenes as I’ve interpreted them are so subtly and skillfully written, so multi-leveled, so successful at illuminating Delenn’s personality, that my considerable admiration for JMS’s talent has grown even greater. Add to that Mira Furlan’s brilliant acting, and we the audience are fortunate to experience their collaboration in the creation of Delenn. <<

Now, I would like to add some points you did not cover, which I’ve been mulling on for some time.

Part of the problem, which we have never discussed, is that ALL the prophecies are part of the time travel loop. In wwoe we had a compact, confined 2 eps with letters, people and events co-inciding together to finish out story arcs going back 3 years. Since those episodes aired, all the discussions on the boards regarding those 2 eps have echoed the same problems with the convoluted nature of time travel and any attempts at answering questions turned many brains to mush, headaches and dizzyness. Although some of the prophecies were discsussed as part of the loop and what that meant, we never took the next step and asked how it was affecting our perception of Delenn’s towards John, one of our on-going discussions. Is it any wonder that the motivations of Delenn in regard to the prophecies would still confound us? I don’t think we can bring clarity to this issue until we address two primary issues: a) the ambiguities in the prophecies and Minbari beliefs and, b) determine if we can, if there is a “beginning” to use as a reference point. The following deal with these two points.

continued

Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love…
Date: 96-07-07 19:53:49 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

part 2
The Prophecies are Ambiguous
Unlike the confined space of wwoe, we had glimpses of the prophecies throughout the 3 years. Furthermore, we have never seen a real difinitive “list” of these prophecies. Rather bits and pieces were provided by JMS over several years (even as recently as Ceremonies), hints in the show and our own intuitive reactions have contributed to the problem of seeing the prophecies as part of this closed loop.

In the first year we had Delenn speaking before the Grey Council, arguing that the prophecies are not about others but for herself. This argument went on even into Points of Departure and later when she was finally removed from the Council. For example, we don’t know if a woman was prophecied to be “it.” We can say that the prophecies were ambigous enough that even the Grey Council, with all of its vast information, could not discern the who true “One Who Is” was! Perhaps someone else in the Grey Council, or closely known, was pondering if he/she was the One (mabye a warrior caste?) and thus wished to hinder Delenn. We do not know if the Grey Council or Minbari laypersons truly believed the humans were the other half, or if they considered another race might be involved (hopefully to avoid the intense emotions caused by the war). My understanding was that the ambiguities were such that she had to get some assurance from Kosh before going ahead and *still* she did not even have a 100% certainty she would “hatch” into a part human. How else would one explain the hatred some of the Minbari, even among the religious caste, had towards Delenn and her transformation? Had it been irrefutably clear that she was the One, would not reverence for Valen, for the destiny of the Minbari to fight the Shadows have encouraged, nay, demanded acceptance? This ambiguity part of the problem we face in our analysis.

The Issue of Motivation
Delenn has had a lifetime to ponder the question of the loop. As Lennier stated at the beginning of COI, the deed must be done for the right reason or, the work is corrupted. Delenn knows that. Of course, she could delude herself into thinking she loves John, but I doubt it and Martha has eloquently argued on this point. The “right reason” implies that the choice must come from the heart. Motivations coming from the heart or the head are very different. As Sebastian suggested, the choices made from her heart were the true guide to whether or not she was Chosen. As far as Sebatian was concerned long as she stayed true to her heart she was acting rightly and the work would not be corrupted.

The mind (and I am not the best person to define this, so bear with me), even a Minbari mind as we have seen, can choose deceptively, justify actions that are not right and get far astray from the motivations of the heart and soul which are deeper and reflect the intrinsic nature of the person. Therefore, in order to act correctly so that the future is not only able to “stay on track” but the goal of saving the universe can be achieved, she MUST act from her heart or her deeds run the risk of being corrupted by the mind’s machinations. Thus she cannot “choose” to do something because she mentally thinks this serves a prophecy, she must go by her feelings even when it would seem imprudent. This is why she had no hesitancy in helping the Markeb. Death was not her concern, her need to care for others was paramount and thus she acted. Maybe she believed the universe would save her, but in any event as she said in A Distant Star “The Universe puts us in places we can learn. Where ever we are is the right place at the right time and the pain is part of the process of being born.” The hell with prophecy, this woman follows her heart and won’t second guess the universe.

continued one more time

Subj: Re: If This Isn’t Love…
Date: 96-07-07 19:54:16 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

final part,

Rather, I see Delenn as living from the heart, by staying in the here-and-now, which allows one to bypass the chicken & egg nature of the closed loop. If someone told you what you would be doing 10 years from now, how would that affect your actions, daily and large scale goals? We can easily (I know from personal experience) lock up our energy being too mentally focused on the goal and how to get there. Also in Ceremonies, she said that the prophecies were a poor guide to the future and could not really be understood until they were upon you.

She may have come to some decision that the prophecies aren’t real until they are actually happening and that what has been “said” can only make sense as she lives it. Hence she chooses to live her life as fully as she can, without being focused on “now if I do this, how is it going to affect prophecy #2?” In the beginning, whether or not John was the one she would end up with, she allowed herself to experience the feelings and stay in the here and now, because the feelings were what the universe gave her to learn. And she takes her lessons seriously. By being in the moment, this is the ONLY way to make sure she keeps in touch with her motivations and acts from the heart. Otherwise, the work becomes corrupted and the future tarnished forever. She has continued to take her “baby steps” into this relationship and is probably grateful, as Martha said, that the universe gave her someone to love and to be loved by and be with her through the traumatic and painful journey from Darkness into Light.

Her interactions in wwoe with John and Sinclair tell the tale fairly well. Here is a dear friend of hers, discovering that he has a destiny that would take him out of time and space and place him elsewhere, perhaps forever. No last minute consulations about prophecies, the Minbari culture and life a 1000 years ago. No heart to heart chats about how much she’ll miss him or that she’ll pray for him. No mention of the vision she had of him as a child. The only strong indication of her loss is seeing her in the darkened room after getting the letter. Rather, John occupied much of her thought and actions in this trip.

John is the critial human in her life. She cannot afford to loose him and I don’t think her sense of loss would be just because he was the One to Be. There was no professional cool here as there was on the day when she persuaded Kosh to drop his suit and save John’s life. Things have changed then, and her love stronger, clearer and is being returned. Her love of John is such that she needs him, emotionally as a woman, and his safe return from his time trips (I too noticed how she zoomed past Sinclair as if he wasn’t even there — maybe she had already distanced herself from him as part of the process) was emotionally critical for her. The cool she had been showing throughout the trip was lost in that mad dash down the hall.

So the two “camps” as I see them are:

Delenn takes this as a professional would take his/her job/task (a very mental activity) and *loving* John is a byproduct of the circumstances and not necessarily genuine feelings as we humans know it. Or,

Delenn is acting from her heart, genuinely attracted to him and truly in love and only secondarily following prophecy as it is in keeping with her view of life and living.

 

So, Martha, do you think we’ve zonked out this group?

BJ

Subj: Re:Names
Date: 96-07-08 01:02:32 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<I can’t get over your ability to keep track of these Roman names! >>

I was very into I Claudius in high school when it first aired in the U.S. I was a complete Derek Jacobi fan (actually got to meet him and hear him lecture at UCLA during my brief sojorn in Theatre Arts). My Dad (who was teaching himself classical Latin) used to bring Suetonius to the dinner table (the histories, not the mummified corpse). I know the Imperial family like some fanboys know all the origin stories of Marvel superheroes. Ahh, nothing like useless esoteric knowledge. (And I got nothin’ on Mythophile for knowing Roman material–he’s in a league of his own!)

Subj: Re:The Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-08 18:56:33 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<Whether Morden is a willing or unwilling Shadow henchman is something we don’t know; presumably some of their operatives are in sympathy with the Shadow’s aims. If John seems to become a Shadow slave, I would tend to agree with whoever(sorry – I can’t locate the posting right now) suggested that he might fake it to gain information, save or avenge Anna, whatever.>>

After watching Interludes & Examinations again, I’m working under the belief that Morden isn’t so much a Shadow henchman as a Shadow himself. JMS said somewhere that the Shadows are like hermit crabs. Hermit crabs occupy the shells of another species. Thus, Morden may just be a “shell” of a human being with a Shadow inside. Note in I&E that he almost calls the shots in a few scenes.

What this does to the speculation about Sheridan becoming a Shadow slave–I don’t know. I’m not convinced that’s the direction the show is going.

Subj: Re:Why Za’ha’dum?
Date: 96-07-08 20:03:00 EDT
From: Mmturner
Posted on: America Online

Very nice reasoning – and logical too!

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-08 20:04:12 EDT
From: Mmturner
Posted on: America Online

read on another board that it might be Brother Theo. I’m in favor of keeping all the pricipals too!

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-08 21:25:37 EDT
From: MARNVOTE 1
Posted on: America Online

<<<Garibaldi is too strongly liked. I don’t think JMS would kill off anyone of the 5 primary lead characters: Sheridan, Delenn, Ivanova, Garibaldi or Franklin. >>>

I agree, he (JMS) would be cutting his own throat to kill a major player with a following.

Subj: Re:Ivanova’s Flashforward
Date: 96-07-08 21:53:57 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>But notice, (after playing this tape several times so I could focus on each person’s behavior separately) when they gathered around Zathras while he explains what happened, I watched Susan. Her expressions were unbelievable and she gave no appearances of really listening to Zathras. I’ve never seen a look on her face quite like that before and she was looking at Delenn the entire time, totally focused on her. I’m not sure what to make of it, but I had the impression of strong emotions: confusion? Questions? love? grief? fear? but not anger. Only when Sinclair showed up did she snap out of it. <<

YEP! You betcha, Barrie. I noticed that big-time. AND Delenn was looking straight back at her, too. It’s what prompted my question about whether there was a bond/friendship/mentor process — or something like that — developing between Susan and Delenn. And if you watch carefully in other major moments in Season 3, you might notice that it seems that Susan and Delenn often exchange looks. (Of course this latter part could be all in my head!)

–barb

Subj: Re:Of Life and Death
Date: 96-07-09 00:41:26 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

Rumour in the Eclipse tonight it that it will be Mr. Morden himself. Hmmm. I wouldn’t exactly say that he qualifies as a main character–perhaps a technical distinction.

Subj: Re:Shadows Shape
Date: 96-07-09 11:04:05 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

<<<I liked Londo & hate to see him becoming what he is, but I don’t think he’s trying to trick Morden. >>>

I have liked seeing what a ‘real’ complex character Londo is also. He struggles with things, he’s not a saint or an all-bad type.

I still muddle over that scene at the end of I&E. I think jms certainly wrote in a way to make us wonder. “Everyone dies but those who deserve it. That is going to change.” (paraphrase). However, the thing that makes me think that Londo does end up killing Morden is that the warning to him was “don’t kill the one that’s already dead”. I think Londo does kill Morden, which is why his salvation becomes the third option,”face you’re greatest fear”, i.e. being killed by G’kar, which he has already seen in his flashforwards in previous episodes.

 

Subj: Re:Ivanova’s Flashforward
Date: 96-07-09 11:11:30 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

I’ve noticed that too, but I figured I was just hallucinating as usual. ANyway, the way I see it, Susan and Delenn have a kind of mutual admiration society. On the surface, Susan seems to be very much in control of her life, something Delenn must wish very badly that she had. It must get a little annoying every now and then that there is some prophecy somewhere dictating every action she will take, from taking space stations back through time to brushing her teeth in the morning. ALso, Susan helped her to figure out her humanity. Susan is one of the few people that have seen Delenn feeling rather insecure, and I think she may feel a little like an older sister. I also think that Susan admires how much purpose Delenn has, when she is still trying to figure out just what is going on. I think Susan is starting to feel very much like she’s just along for the ride, not really a part of things. I really would like to see them become friends – the only female/female friendship we’ve seen on the show was with Susan and Talia, and that ended up as a little more than a friendship.

Subj: JMS said one-third
Date: 96-07-09 11:16:22 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

<<<What this does to the speculation about Sheridan becoming a Shadow slave–I don’t know. I’m not convinced that’s the direction the show is going.>>>

This is a leap, but it was this post of Diane K De’s that sent me thinking.
jms has said (I think at Comicon, reported here by those lucky ones who attended) that one-third of the audience will agree with the Shadows motives once they become known. I just had a scary thought — does that mean that, possibly, one-third of the characters on the show will also be convinced of their motives? and how will that affect the storyline and interactions? yeesshh.

Zathras being worried now.

Subj: Re:Ivanova’s Flashforward
Date: 96-07-09 11:25:14 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

<<< ANyway, the way I see it, Susan and Delenn have a kind of mutual admiration society. >>>

I don’t know, SLV80. On another board, someone has pointed out that in fact, Delenn and Susan rarely have much contact and seem to maintain some kind of distance from one another. I think someone (sorry can’t remember who) proposed that there might be a conflict/source of tension between Delenn’s role in the Earth/Minbari war and the death of Susan’s brother?

But — I’m headed back to re-watch WWE1&2 to check out your theories.
vcr being broken for last 2 weeks, now must catch up on obsession.

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-09 16:06:32 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

Hi…I finally got here after all these months….(new PC) Wahoo!

>What do the rest of you think? Was it “Delenn, honey…” or “Delenn, (inarticulate noise)…?”

I heard “Hon,” at the time. I am kind of sensitive to that phrase, as that is the endearment of choice of my best friend (a guy, I’m a she) for me, his girlfriend, his mom, his puppy, etc.

You know, I think more has been going on with them behind the curtains…remember when Garibaldi called the R7 war counsil meeting in “Ship of Tears,” and Sheridan’s reply was “I’m kind of in the middle of something,”? At first I thought, what could he not pull away from to attend an R7? Maybe he was, uh, “reading the sports section.”

Or maybe he was with Delenn.

Just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening…JMS slipping something in past us again? Maybe at this point Sheridan is calling her “honey.” They are just very private people.

Subj: Re:baby talk
Date: 96-07-09 16:12:11 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Before I post a speculation on how Delenn can have this kid without 9 months of waddling

Why speculate? JMS says the series happens in real time. If she is pregnant during the series, it will take as long as it takes.

>Do we assume jms doesn’t read this board, or is this a issue he isn’t sensitive to anymore.

Recently JMS said on either Compuserve or Usenet when someone asked him how onld John and Delenn’s son would be at the time of John’s flash forward…it was a question he could not answer, “no how.”

Wait for the fall…
Subj: Baby talk/episode
Date: 96-07-09 16:17:02 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>>No you didn’t imagine this. I don’t remember the exact name of the episode, but Delenn said something to the effects of,
“Do you have any idea why I suddenly started getting these odd cramps?”

>It was immediately following her transformation.

It was the very end of “Soul Mates” at the beginning of Season two. this is the same episode where Ivanova helps Delenn deal with her hair.

 

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-09 23:07:13 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

<<Maybe he was, uh, “reading the sports section.”

Or maybe he was with Delenn.>>

A thousand million PMFJI’s but I can’t stand it anymore! 😀

That’s exactly what *I* thought when he said he was “in the middle of something,” JJR, except my ex-roomie, who’s been into B5 from practically the beginning (and is delighted that I’ve *finally* come into the fold… we do a lot of squealing in front of her TV these days ;), says it was most likely library time. 😀 She avers that J&D simply haven’t gotten to that stage in their relationship yet, it’s too soon. But then again, she *can* be a bit of an Alice in Wonderland about romance. (Don’t tell her I said that…) But more in my next post.

Kimberley
Subj: Is Delenn a virgin?
Date: 96-07-09 23:34:49 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

Now that I have your attention… 😀

This is something I’ve been wondering more and more as time passes and the John/Delenn relationship gets deeper and closer to consummation. I’ll readily admit that I have a *very* healthy interest in sex. I like to read about it. I like to write it. I like to watch it. (But you never heard that from *me*! 😉 And on the extremely rare occasion ::sigh:: I get the chance, I like to have it, too. My personal participation in said act gets less likely every day, unfortunately, so I’m more than willing to vicariously indulge. 😀

Now, I’m a newbie to B5, but I have had the privilege of watching half of first season and all of second and third (up to WWE, which I am *breathlessly* anticipating on Thursday) more or less sequentially. (You’d think I’d be on overload, but it’s just made me hungry for MORE! :D) I saw Delenn’s emergence from the chrysalis and the eps that both led up to and came after. If nothing else, she has a different body (*how* different? I dunno, but like Han Solo, I can imagine quite a bit! >:), and that aside, who thinks it’s possible she had Minbari sex with another Minbari anytime in her past? My ex-roomie is of the opinion that Delenn has “never been loved.” I’m not sure she means just the physical.

Anyway, I’m just curious, about the subject and about the opinions the rest of you might have on the subject. I do hope I don’t come across as crass — I can be quite civilized when I put my mind to it. 😀 I also hope that this question doesn’t come off as prurient or demeaning. I mean, John and Delenn (and most of us) *are* grownups and sex between grownups can be an incredible experience, especially when combined with as much love as is growing between those two. And they WILL have sex. David is proof of that…

I hope. =:O

Take care, all.

Kimberley
Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-10 01:15:48 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

JJR:

How can the show continue in real time and end 17 years in the future in the next two years?

Sherry

Subj: Re:Sheridan
Date: 96-07-10 01:23:58 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Okay, here’s something I came across that got me thinking: I was browsing Lurker’s Guide when I found this in the analysis of “All Alone in the Night,” re: Sheridan’s dream:

(about Sheridan): As he turns, we get a brief glimpse of a metal pin the left breast of his jacket: a Psi-Corps badge. And in fact, his jacket appears to be the uniform of a Psi-Cop, with the leather strap down the right side of the front. Analysis: Sheridan’s change of clothes is perhaps the most ominous part of the entire sequence. Combined with Bester’s comment in “A Race Through Dark Places” that he was told to expect Sheridan to be sympathetic to the Psi-Corps, it suggests some yet-to-be revealed connection between Sheridan and the Corps…

Well the uniform may be explained by the new uniforms but does this just speak of an alliance with Bester as started in “Ship of Tears”?

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-10 16:18:15 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<How can the show continue in real time and end 17 years in the future in the next two years?

Sherry>>

The show will not cover those seventeen years except in flash-forwards like we saw.

Subj: Re:Is Delenn a virgin?
Date: 96-07-10 17:37:35 EDT
From: Badinov
Posted on: America Online

heh heh heh… she said “virgin” ….heh heh heh

Ahem. It would seem that even if the old Delenn once known carnal pleasures in a Minbari way, she would now be a virgin in her new semi-human body. Based on her comments about cramps and a few other things, I think the transformation installed a new set of ovaries, tubes & etc. Talk about “where no man has gone before” !!
Badinov

Subj: Re:New Character
Date: 96-07-10 18:36:35 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<One thing I love about B5 is the way (like life) people come & go, both the good & the bad. I enjoy all the characters (& I **do** mean characters) that are on B5. If one of my favorite characters dies or departs, I may be sad, may even cry, but — hey — the story goes on. >>

Ah, but *real life* for JMS, Warner Brothers, and the stations showing B5 means that it is in their interest to keep the audience avid and tuning in, to be practical about it. At this point in the story line, killing off favorite characters, particularly on a cult show like B5, is very risky. No one has been *permanently* removed, have they, except Kosh, and we’re not sure about him, what with all those energy flashes when he died and him being a Vorlon. Talia Winters can come back, Sinclair as Valen can come back – this is scifi/fantasy, after all, and dead doesn’t mean dead(and anyway, Sinclair didn’t die), what with time travel, regeneration rituals(Dr.Who, Spock, Gandalf),
reincarnation, whatever. The only really dead regular character so far is Keffer(at least as far as I can remember) who was offed by the Shadows last year and was in no way a major player.

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-11 00:37:53 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Archer:

Did you hear that from somewhere official? Otherwise, I don’t believe it. It’ll leave too many holes.

Sherry

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-11 14:23:50 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

Nothing official. I just have heard that the show will concluded after having covered five years of real time.

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-12 01:49:48 EDT
From: DrgnPrncs
Posted on: America Online

I work for Barnes & Noble and immediately looked for the book after reading the posting. It was quite a chapter. But I wonder why the author chose to “disguise” the name of the person she was discussing, namely, Mira Furlan? First of all, everyone in the former Yugoslavia apparently is aware of what transpired with Mira there, so they already know who “M” is. Secondly, all of us who are searching for the book also know that the subject of chapter 12 is Mira. Finally, for anyone who doesn’t know who Mira is, what difference would naming her make? Her past will not affect her ability to work in this country (obviously), and, being an actress on a show popular all over the world, she’s hardly anonymous.

 

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-12 23:47:38 EDT
From: CELT56
Posted on: America Online

THE BALKAN EXPRESS was written just after she had left what was left of Yugoslavia. At that point, before BABYLON 5 Mira Furlan was alone, and out of work. She(hopefully) is in quite a different position today than she was five years ago.

Subj: Re: Delenn’s Secret
Date: 96-07-12 23:58:30 EDT
From: CELT56
Posted on: America Online

From earlier: In line with later entries herein-noting the subtle(or not so subtle) visual contact between Delenn and Susan. If this is scripted we can say a game is afoot(and we have perhaps an idea of what it is but we ain’t tellin). The reference to mirror image could be a different reflection than the Shadows play. A “good” possibility. Mirror image might be a link to the aspect of Minbari-Human transformation, it makes us think of the Celtic religious aspect of the Sidhe. Of this world, and that world.

Subj: Re: Delenn’s Secret
Date: 96-07-13 00:09:09 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

CELT56 — have you ever been accused of sounding like a Vorlon? 😉

Subj: Re:Is Delenn a virgin?
Date: 96-07-13 03:32:28 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
>> My ex-roomie is of the opinion that Delenn has “never been loved.” I’m not sure she means just the physical.<<

I keep wondering if JMS will ever give us any info about her Minbari life (we will find out about her parents, I hear). Then again, he may keep it a mystery, as that is one of her attractions.

Some people on this board think (including myself) think she’s spent much of her Minbari life in politics and religion, preparing for her *work.* So that suggests an answer to part of your question, but the other part is really important.

I’m starting to see JMS as a romantic. He takes Delenn through all the stages of growing into love in a healthy way and portrays each stage so beautifully it comes alive. In my books, *sex* isn’t the subject here. For me, Delenn embodies a question I’ve often asked myself: how to become the best loving person I can be. What would the world be like if we each loved someone as much as Delenn loves John and with that quality of maturity, grace and generosity of spirit she shows? Hopefully a lot better place! Although for most of us, this person may not be our first love for unlike her, we have to struggle a lot more to find our way and learn how to love. For me, she shows me the way.

Subj: Re: JMS said one-third
Date: 96-07-13 03:33:12 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

>> I just had a scary thought — does that mean that, possibly, one-third of the characters on the show will also be convinced of their motives? and how will that affect the storyline and interactions? yeesshh.

Zathras being worried now.<<

Now you got ME worried. What a horrifying thought! Split the crew into factions? Just after we got rid of all those Nightwatchers. brrrr.

Subj: Re: JMS said one-third
Date: 96-07-13 17:23:38 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

<<<<<>> I just had a scary thought — does that mean that, possibly, one-third of the characters on the show will also be convinced of their motives? and how will that affect the storyline and interactions? yeesshh.

Zathras being worried now.<<

Now you got ME worried. What a horrifying thought! Split the crew into factions? Just after we got rid of all those Nightwatchers. brrrr.>>>>>>
I started to post my speculation as a question to jms, but then I got the gnawing feeling that it might resemble a story idea, so I deleted it. What do others think? I wouldn’t know a story idea if it rolled up and bit me, but I didn’t want to take any chances.

😕

Subj: The other dress
Date: 96-07-13 19:35:02 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
Someone told me to take a better look at a scene in WWOE #1 (hint) where Delenn is helping Zathras and John & Sinclair are talking. It appears we get a brief but very good glimpse of one rather shapely leg! Maybe *that’s* why JMS called it a *killer* dress! Too bad the guys were engrossed in their conversation, they missed a sight! (I guess men aren’t very attentive to details, or to women….hee hee)

Do you think this was planned, or did someone in editing forget to edit? Or did they hope we would be too busy paying attention to the conversation to notice? Or, was this just one of those little surprises JMS buries into a show for us to find when we run out of things to do and have watched a tape a thousand times? The latter is how I found a ranger who walked right passed Vir and Londo.

Thank God for vcrs, yes?

I must be running out of things to do to spend my time fine-tooth combing B5 tapes for tidbits.

does anyone have any other tidbits we can digest?

Subj: Re: JMS said one-third
Date: 96-07-14 18:38:50 EDT
From: DAVID JNSN
Posted on: America Online

BarrieJ:

Yes, it IS a frightening thought! However, it would be JUST like JMS to do that very thing!

Hmmm….

Is anyone else about to go nuts out there waiting on the last five episodes besides me?!
Subj: Re:Terrible price
Date: 96-07-14 20:02:44 EDT
From: SimoneNC
Posted on: America Online

I think what G’Kar had realized was “Some must be sacrificed for all to be saved.”

SimoneNC

Subj: Re:Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-14 20:10:44 EDT
From: SimoneNC
Posted on: America Online

I think that either Ivanova or Garibaldi will die, paying the “ultimate price”, but was that really Delenn’s point? After all there are things so much worse than dying…

SimoneNC

Subj: Re:Eternal Triangle
Date: 96-07-14 20:13:25 EDT
From: SimoneNC
Posted on: America Online

Two roads diverged in a wood, and he, he took the one less traveled by.

Subj: Re: JMS said one-third
Date: 96-07-15 17:59:15 EDT
From: Geann
Posted on: America Online

<Is anyone else about to go nuts out there waiting on the last five episodes besides me?

All of us who read the posts regularly. Went on the WWW for 2 hours just looking a B% sites – drove myself nuts.

Better to rewatch the tapes.

Subj: Sheridan is a gonner.
Date: 96-07-15 18:05:29 EDT
From: MMcgreavy
Posted on: America Online

We have seen in the most recent episode that Sheridan while unstuck in time appears on Centuri Prime.

There he is greeted By Londo saying “what a good time for you to return from the abyss.” A term some might mean from the Great Beyond.

We hear Delenn tell John Sheridan “Don’t go to Z’aha’dum! Why? Because he will die! Why does she tell Sheridan of the past not to go to this place. Because she, Delenn of the future, knows that he did just that.

Kosh has warned Sheridan do not go to Z’aha’dum or you will die. He didn’t say you can die, he said you will die.

So Sheridan is not long for this World. Sorry guys that the way things are.

Remember Londo’s Three chances and the second one is ” You must not kill “The One” who is already dead.

So did Sheridan hear Delenn’s warning as he returns to B4. Please how many times does some one have to be warned not to do something? And will he still take a trip that will only end in his death. Or does he think that he is so indistructible that he may change his own fate.

Subj: Re:Sheridan is a gonner.
Date: 96-07-15 21:44:34 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

Good! I kind of hope he does get knocked off! I never really wanted to see him and Delenn get together, (although I know it will happen to some degree…) and I think Ivanova deserves command of the station….either that or bring back Sinclair!

Subj: Re:Sheridan is a gonner.
Date: 96-07-15 23:18:45 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

>> I never really wanted to see him and Delenn get together,<<

I DO believe you’re in the minority, bunky…

 

Kimberley
Subj: Re:Next 5 eps
Date: 96-07-16 00:41:23 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

If you want maddening spoilers check out http://www.pages.prodigy.com/wildfoto/spoilers.html. It has a link /comcon.html which has dialogue screened at one of the latest conventions….Now I really can’t wait!

Sherry

Subj: Re:Sheridan is a gonner not
Date: 96-07-16 15:51:19 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<There he is greeted By Londo saying “what a good time for you to return from the abyss.” A term some might mean from the Great Beyond. >>

Then again, it might have meant Sheridan was just drugged back in his cell. He was unconscious at the beginning of the scene.

<<We hear Delenn tell John Sheridan “Don’t go to Z’aha’dum! Why? Because he will die! Why does she tell Sheridan of the past not to go to this place. Because she, Delenn of the future, knows that he did just that. >>

Then why wasn’t she surprised to see him alive? She knew he was there and assumed he knew they had a son and that son might be in danger. How would he know that unless he had been with her all along?

<<Kosh has warned Sheridan do not go to Z’aha’dum or you will die. He didn’t say you can die, he said you will die.>>

The last thing you wanna do is start taking Kosh literally. Did he mean a physical death or a death of innocence? Or did he mean that if Sheridan did not go to Z’ha’dum, he would somehow live forever? What he said was “If you go to Z’ha’dum, you will die.” The inverse of that is “If you do not go, you will not die.” Does Sheridan give up on immortality to try to save Anna?

<<So Sheridan is not long for this World. Sorry guys that the way things are.>>

Only if you subscribe to a totally literal interpretation of what we know so far…. which is a dangerous thing to do on Babylon 5….

Subj: Re: The Terrible Price<<One
Date: 96-07-16 15:58:39 EDT
From: Rhianydd
Posted on: America Online

<<One possibility – as Satan was once an angel, as Tolkien’s Gandalf and Sauron
were beings of the same kind, maybe the Vorlons and the Shadows are two sides
of the same coin. That might explain why the Vorlons are still hanging around, instead of having gone to join the other Ancient Ones. The Vorlons feel some sort of responsiblity to the rest of the galaxy because the Shadows were once part of them.>>

This is an excellent thought! The idea of Shadows as *fallen angels/Vorlons* would seem to fit in the developing B5 mythos quite neatly, and as for their motives being agreeable to one-third of the audience, I wonder if they’re trying to wipe out the *agression* gene or some similar genetic/social manipulation. (Seeing Sic Transit Vir again made me think of this). It seemed as if they were busily encouraging civil wars, border conflicts, etc. Maybe they want all the aggressive-type races to annihilate each other.

Subj: Re: The Big Secret
Date: 96-07-16 16:51:57 EDT
From: AnnZm
Posted on: America Online

I think we need to consider the possibility that what JMS has been leading up to is that the Vorlons are as guilty as the Shadows of some great wrong (possibly holding the Shadows in slavery all these years — that would explain why no one is allowed to visit their world!) If this is true, then we have to consider that Delenn may be as much of a “puppet” for the Vorlons as Morden is for the Shadows, and so are the rest of our heroes, through her (& Kosh’s) manipulations. Mind you, I don’t want this theory to be true (I love Delenn!) but the more JMS posts I read, the more of a sinking feeling I get…

Subj: Sheridan is a goner…not!
Date: 96-07-16 17:56:39 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Actually, Sheridan *can’t* be a “goner” because the whole point of him being able to flashforward 17 years in the future is that his actual living physical body has to be there as well. JMS has said it’s kinda like the Quantum Leap effect – if you look at the video closely, you’ll see that both he and Delenn are somewhat older looking. Sheridan from the show’s “present” did not get thrown forward 17 years in the future by accident…he got zapped into his own body which is already there. Got it?

Subj: Re: Sheridan is a gonner
Date: 96-07-16 19:35:22 EDT
From: MMcgreavy
Posted on: America Online

The assumption that when Sheridan is unstuck in time that a living Sheridan has to be in that time frame may not have to be correct. Look at Sinclair when he sees himself and Garibaldi fighting the Shadows. Now we know that Sinclair is not there in that alternate time frame because he is now 1000 years in the past.

Delenn wasn’t surprised to see Sheridan? I thought she said something like I thought I would never see you again or didn’t she say that Sheridan had told her in the past that they would meet on the Centari Home World. What ever.

The point remains that JMS now has repeatedly told the character that to travel to Za’ha’dum will be fatal. I think that Delenn’s warning about Za’ha’dum is justification. Also the physical aging of Sheridan might be explained by the fact that the device that was protecting Sheridan had failed. So his trip into the future might be a manifistation of his physical body in that time brought about by a temperal condition. If Sheridan for instance was inhabiting his body for that time period, where is his physical 17 year younger body? No, the Sheridan we saw on Centauri is the one and only.

Unless JMS can give a plausible excuse for the character of Sheridan not to seek retribution at Za’ha’dum than Sheridan must die in some time in the future. One of many tragic heros.

We are asked not to take Kosh’s warning literaly! It is true the character of Kosh did speak in metaphor but I think the warning is preatty clear. “If you go to Za’ha’dum you will die.” Not too much metophor there guys. To me that’s about as close to saying “DUCK” as you ever going to get.

 

 

Subj: Re: Sheridan is a gonner
Date: 96-07-16 20:47:19 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Delenn wasn’t surprised to see Sheridan? I thought she said something like I thought I would never see you again or didn’t she say that Sheridan had told her in the past that they would meet on the Centari Home World. >>

She certainly wasn’t as surprised as she would have been to see a man returned from the dead! And furthermore, this is scifi cum fantasy – who says that death is permanent when that’s considered? Remember Spock, Gandalf(who literally came back from an abyss), Dr.Who, ObiWan Kenobe (and Shatner’s all ready resurrected Kirk in his latest ST novel) … Then add to that the fact that JMS has confirmed that this is the future that *will be* and not a possible future as Sinclair and Garibaldi experienced….

 

Subj: Re:The other dress
Date: 96-07-16 21:20:43 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Barrie — I’ll check the leg shot :)

What episode was the ranger walk-by?

— barb

Subj: Re:Sheridan is a gonner.
Date: 96-07-16 21:22:51 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>You must not kill “The One” who is already dead.<<

Except that Londo tells Sheridan and Delenn they are his last hope, and then surrenders to his greatest fear (death by G’Kar) — the third prophecy, methinks

— barb

Subj: Re:Sheridan is a gonner.
Date: 96-07-17 02:00:48 EDT
From: SchnellJan
Posted on: America Online

Also, he is wearing different clothing than the “young” Sheridan, suggesting that the “future” Sheridan must exist — I wonder where he is when all this is taking place?

Janice

Subj: Re:Next 5 eps
Date: 96-07-17 02:06:03 EDT
From: SchnellJan
Posted on: America Online

When I tried to find that web page, I wasn’t able to get it until I deleted the www from the address. If anyone else is having trouble, it may work for you.

Thanks for the info. I’ve been having fun with it. Even if my computer doesn’t seem to want to download the movie files.

Janice

Subj: Sheridan is NOT a goner
Date: 96-07-17 02:36:15 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

<<The assumption that when Sheridan is unstuck in time that a living Sheridan has to be in that time frame may not have to be correct. Look at Sinclair when he sees himself and Garibaldi fighting the Shadows. Now we know that Sinclair is not there in that alternate time frame because he is now 1000 years in the past. >>

Yeah, but Sinclair fighting on Babylon 5 is from a future in which Sinclair did NOT go back in time and become Valen. And just look at Sheridan in the future: he has visibly aged. That is a body that has lived through all of the intervening 17 years. OK?

<<Delenn wasn’t surprised to see Sheridan? I thought she said something like I thought I would never see you again…>>

They had been separated since being captured and were awaiting execution. That is what she meant. She didn’t expect to see him before they were killed.

<<or didn’t she say that Sheridan had told her in the past that they would meet on the Centauri Home World.>>

Not exactly. He told her that he had seen “this moment” in their future. All that means is that he had seen them together on Centauri Prime, not that they hadn’t seen each other in the years before that.

<<The point remains that JMS now has repeatedly told the character that to travel to Za’ha’dum will be fatal.>>

But death does not necessarily mean physical death. Delenn says “I see the innocence that went away so many years ago.” I think that is what “died” on Z’ha’dum: Sheridan’s innocence. Finding out your wife is the pawn of the greatest evil in the galaxy would do that to a guy.

<<I think that Delenn’s warning about Za’ha’dum is justification.>>

All I conclude from Delenn’s warning is that something *bad* will happen. I don’t presume to know more, or even guess.

<<If Sheridan for instance was inhabiting his body for that time period, where is his physical 17 year younger body?>>

Good question, but I got the impression from both Sheridan and Delenn that being “unstuck” in time is more a matter of perception than physical travel. I can only guess that Sheridan’s physical body is, in fact, nowhere until it is reanchored.

I am merely trying to warn you about the dangers of assuming you *know* what is going to happen on Babylon 5….

Subj: Re: Delenn’s Secret
Date: 96-07-17 23:56:01 EDT
From: CELT56
Posted on: America Online

We take that as a compliment

Subj: Re: Sheridan
Date: 96-07-18 00:44:19 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

There’s speculation that Franklin kept some of the serum that Deathwalker invented. If Sheridan does buy it on Z’ha’dum, perhaps he’s brought back with this serum (JMS once hinted that the Deathwalker plot was not a one-time theme). Perhaps what he gives up is mortality.

Sherry

Subj: Re: Delenn’s dress
Date: 96-07-18 00:45:39 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Wow, finally saw the leg shot you were referring to. They must have awfully high cut underwear on Minbar (if any). :)

Subj: You’ve Come A Long Way, Baby!
Date: 96-07-18 01:20:12 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
I’ve been thinking about Delenn’s development lately,

here are some thoughts.

She really seems to enjoy her new human body, as evidenced by her attention to her appearance since the change. Rather than mantain the fashion she wore in the first year, which wasn’t very memorable, she has adapted and changed her attire and appearance to accent her new human beauty in a most human way. Every other week her hair alternates between straight or luscious curls (must be them Minbari genetics) with frequent changes in styling, especially about the face. Of course caring for such a gorgeous mane requires the utmost skill with that bone in the way (I’ve often wondered how does one wash and style with that bone). She wears makeup, earrings and heels regularly. Although her clothes are unusual and we think they are Minbari, in comparison to other Minbaris who wear loose fitting Bedouin-style robes in white or muted tones (granted we’ve only seen the crew of the White Star, a few members of the Warrior caste and the Grey Council, hardly sufficient evidence of Minbari fashion) Delenn’s long dresses are body fitting and colorful. Of course we all remember how elegant and feminine she looked when she wore a human evening dress!

Subj: Re:The other dress
Date: 96-07-18 01:21:34 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

>> episode was the ranger walk-by?<<

can’t remember, Londo & vir were at the bar talking and this ranger walked right by them… I nearly fell over. a RANGER! I screamed! scared the poor kitties.
Subj: Delenn’s Dress
Date: 96-07-18 01:53:43 EDT
From: OwlGrandma
Posted on: America Online

Is the green dress (the one that can show so much leg) one-piece, or two? Sometimes it seems that the sleeves are part of an underblouse or bodysuit. Is the green dress a single garment, or a kind of uniform, so that there is more than one version? In Severed Dreams she was wearing one of her usual sleevless overdress outfits when she left Lennier in charge of the B5 mission, while she went off to raise hell with the Grey Council. When she returns on the White Star to save the day for Sheridan, she is wearing the green dress. So, are there several copies of the green outfit, or is the dress made of some Minbari miracle fabric that never needs cleaning and folds up to the size of a postage stamp?

OwlGma

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-18 02:15:41 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

>>What do the rest of you think? Was it “Delenn, honey…” or “Delenn, (inarticulate noise)…?”<<

I anxiosly awaited the rerun of this episode so that I could watch it again, with my closed captioning on. I even taped it so that I could watch it over and over again. I am sadly dissapointed to say that Sheridan never said the word hon or honey. The only thing that comes close is when he said, “Son… We have a son?” Sorry guys!!!

On onother note in the same episode, Ivannava is talking to Zanthras and says, “Doesn’t anything come under warrenty any more?” At which time Zanthras gives her a sidelong glance and ‘elbows’ her!!!! Did I imagine this or am I right? WHere would an alein pick up such a human guesture, and who did he know how to use it???

TRICIA

 

Subj: Re:young Sheridan
Date: 96-07-18 20:50:54 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I think they become one and the same, briefly, when he is unstuck in time.

— barb

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-18 22:22:32 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>That’s exactly what *I* thought when he said he was “in the middle of something,” JJR, except my ex-roomie, who’s been into B5 from practically the beginning (and is delighted that I’ve *finally* come into the fold… we do a lot of squealing in front of her TV these days ;), says it was most likely library time. 😀 She avers that J&D simply haven’t gotten to that stage in their relationship yet, it’s too soon. But then again, she *can* be a bit of an Alice in Wonderland about romance. (Don’t tell her I said that…) But more in my next post.<

“Library time!” I love it!
I guessed he had the sports section…you know how John loves his baseball…

Okay, this is getting sick. Enough!
<*> Boo

 
Subj: Re:Is Delenn a virgin?
Date: 96-07-18 22:24:32 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

> And on the extremely rare occasion ::sigh:: I get the chance, I like to have it, too. <
Off topic…

Oh, I though no one else had that problem… :)

The ultimate in safe sex.
<*> Boo

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-18 22:30:54 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>JJR:

>How can the show continue in real time and end 17 years in the future in the next two years?

>Sherry

JMS says this, not me, first of all. The show travels at 1 year per season. He says the show ends in year five, at the end of 2262. What we saw is a flash forward, the end of the story so to speak, but the epoisodes progress pretty much in real time. (Check the FAQs for this general history and timeline) Someone did a detailed timeline once, but I forgot where I saw it..

I figure it this way: allow about 2 1/2 weeks time between episodes. We are in about August 2260 right now (WWE).

If Delenn is pregnant during the run of the show (during now and December 2262), she will probably spend 2/3 of the episodes pregnant. IF that happens.

This is actually something you might want to run past JMS, but I will bet good Spoo that he won’t answer due to spoilers! :)

<*> Boo

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-18 22:40:44 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>I work for Barnes & Noble and immediately looked for the book after reading the posting. It was quite a chapter. But I wonder why the author chose to “disguise” the name of the person she was discussing, namely, Mira Furlan? First of all, everyone in the former Yugoslavia apparently is aware of what transpired with Mira there, so they already know who “M” is. Secondly, all of us who are searching for the book also know that the subject of chapter 12 is Mira. Finally, for anyone who doesn’t know who Mira is, what difference would naming her make? Her past will not affect her ability to work in this country (obviously), and, being an actress on a show popular all over the world, she’s hardly anonymous.<

Two comments: When the essay in the book was written (I assume you mean “the Balkan Express”), Mira was not doing B5.No one knew her, she wasn’t acting again, she was not doing anything but trying to survive. She just arrived in New York, pretty much homeless; the essay makes that clear. Perhaps at that point she did not want to be identified further, after all, she had just endured an avalanche of death threats.

Also, a friend of mine pointed out that by not using Mira’s full name, the article symbolizes Mira’s feeling that she had lost her identity. the name of the chapter is “Thae Actress Who Lost Her Homeland;” where you live and come from is a large part of who we are. Mira has said in interviews that her loss of her homeland is a loss she will always feel; that is part of who she is. I think this is a valid point.

I have the book out of the library now…when I pulled it off the shelf, it fell open to that chapter.

here it is…oh, S***! It’s overdue! <VBG>

<*> Boo

 

Subj: earrings?
Date: 96-07-18 22:44:22 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

> She wears makeup, earrings and heels regularly.

When did she wear earrings?
<*> Boo

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-18 22:48:02 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>The only thing that comes close is when he said, “Son… We have a son?” Sorry guys!!!

No, the SECOND scene with them, when he pulls out of the kiss. Sheridan makes her be quiet and listen “Delenn, honey…” and tells her about being unstuck in time.
I don’t expect cc will get it right as they make frequent errors.

Well, it’s only a small detail. I wonder about him explaining a diminutive that refers to a substance secreted by stinging insects….
<*> Boo

Subj: Re:Honey?
Date: 96-07-19 01:27:44 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

Ok, Ok I’ll watch it again. Maybe I’m just not catching it. My CC is pretty good. It doesn’t mess up words and block them out like the older ones do. I promise I’ll listen more carefully this time.

Tricia

Subj: Re:Delenn &…Sheridan plus
Date: 96-07-19 01:35:56 EDT
From: Manstien
Posted on: America Online

Thank you for a great show!

Subj: Re:earrings?
Date: 96-07-19 02:46:12 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
>>When did she wear earrings?<<

at *least* once, for the dinner date, black danglys to match the dress.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Dress
Date: 96-07-19 11:09:43 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

When Delenn left B5 for the Grey Council that day, she carried with her a bag… which was probably laundry.

While she talked to the GC, her laundry (which included this green dress) was cleaned and pressed for her (after all, if you spend your life living on a ship as the GC do, you do need the amenities of life)

and so when she left, she had a cleaned outfit to wear.

how about that?

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Dress
Date: 96-07-19 12:17:27 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

You guys, do you realize how desparate we’re getting–discussing Delenn’s laundry!!!!!

I think Warner Bros. better knock off this crazy episode scheduling or they’re going to be facing a class action suit from those of us whose sanity is being threatened by *WAITING*!!!! Poor B5 fans…quite mad….

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-20 02:23:57 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Boo:

I realize that they’ve spent the last three years showing the story in real time, but do you honestly believe that we’re going to be given a teaser of the future and never see how they get there? And what about after Londo sends them away? Will they make it or not? I don’t believe JMS is that cruel a storyteller. And the only way to do that is (at least in the last season sometime) he’s going to have to change the pace of the story. Where is David, why is he in danger? Who are the keepers? I don’t believe JMS is going to count on another series to tie up the loose ends.

Sherry

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-20 09:02:51 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

What was the name of that book which discusses Mira again? I forgot…

“But Your Honor! I FORGOT Armed Robbery was illegal!!”

Macker

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Dress
Date: 96-07-20 09:11:02 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<When Delenn left B5 for the Grey Council that day, she carried with her a bag… which was probably laundry.

While she talked to the GC, her laundry (which included this green dress) was cleaned and pressed for her (after all, if you spend your life living on a ship as the GC do, you do need the amenities of life)

and so when she left, she had a cleaned outfit to wear.

how about that?>>

But I daresay she doesn’t have access to Grey Council Cleaners anymore!

Macker

Subj: Boxleitner Article
Date: 96-07-20 12:42:59 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

The August 1996 edition of In Style magazine, just out, contains a nice spread on the surprise party Melissa Gilbert threw for Bruce Boxleitner’s 46th birthday, pictures and menu included.

Subj: Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
Date: 96-07-20 15:37:25 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

this is a final revision to an old post on a topic METonkin and I have been thinking about: Delenn’s motivations and love for John. I’ve taken the track of her belief system. it’s in several parts and will also be found on the John Sheridan and Delenn Website, run by Brent Barrett.

part 1
One of the prophecies by Valen concerned the destined love of the One Who Is for the One Who Will Be. This we know to be Delenn and Sheridan. Delenn has been accused of ether deluding herself into thinking that she loves John, or manipulating him and deceiving him about her feelings. “If This Isn’t Love”, by METonkin, challenges the cynics and argues that she truly loves him and the prophecy merely states the obvious. Here I will continue that argument by addressing how Delenn’s beliefs help her make decisions based on her heart rather than trying to anticipate prophecy. The prophecies are part of the Sinclair/Valen time loop and that affects our reading of Delenn’s motivations. (Episodes used: Babylon Squared, Point Of Departure, Geometry of Shadows, All Alone In the Night, A Distant Star, Confessions & Lamentations, Comes the Inquisitor, Ceremonies Light & Dark, WWOE 1 & 2). In these episodes, JMS has provided all the information we need to resolve the problem of the prophecies and Delenn’s true motivations. JMS brilliantly created a rich world with wisdom, inspiration and answers to our dilemma if we look carefully at the episodes.

In WWOE we had a compact, confined 2 episodes with letters, people and events coinciding together to finish out story arcs going back 3 years. Since those episodes aired, all the discussions on the boards regarding those 2 episodes have echoed the same problems with the convoluted nature of time travel and any attempts at answering questions turned many brains to mush, headaches and dizziness. Although some of the prophecies were discussed as part of the loop and what that meant, we never took the next step and asked how it was affecting our perception of Delenn’s feelings towards John, one of our on-going discussions. Is it any wonder that the motivations of Delenn in regard to the prophecies would still confound us? I don’t think we can bring clarity to this issue until we address two primary issues: a) the ambiguities in the prophecies and Minbari beliefs and, b) determine if we can, if there is a way out of the loop. The following deal with these two points.

Unlike the confined space of WWOE, we had glimpses of the prophecies throughout the 3 years. Furthermore, we have never seen a real definitive “list” of these prophecies. Rather bits and pieces were provided by JMS over several years (even as recently as Ceremonies), hints in the show and our own intuitive reactions have contributed to the problem and hence the realization that they are part of the Valen/Sinclair time travel loop has never been fully understood. Once realized, it becomes obvious that the prophecy has special problems.

continued

Subj: Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
Date: 96-07-20 15:38:33 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
part 2
In the first year we had Delenn speaking before the Grey Council, arguing that the prophecies are not about others but of herself. This argument went on even into Points of Departure and later when she was finally removed from the Council. We can say that the prophecies were ambiguous enough that even the Grey Council, with all of its vast information, could not discern the who true “One Who Is” was! This would explain why the Grey Council did not concur with Delenn’s interpretation of the identity of the Minbari who was to go through the metamorphous or how that transformation was to take place. “The prophecies will attend to themselves” said Hedroon in Points of Departure. The ambiguities were such that even Delenn had to get some assurance from Kosh before going ahead and *still* she did not even have a 100% certainty she would “hatch” into a part human. How else would one explain the hatred some of the Minbari, even among the religious caste, had towards Delenn and her transformation? Had it been irrefutably clear that she was the One, would not reverence for Valen, for the destiny of the Minbari to fight the Shadows have encouraged, nay, demanded acceptance?

In Ceremonies of Light and Dark Delenn tells Lennier that prophecies are a poor guide to the future. Sometimes they cannot be understood until the events are upon you. Perhaps she experienced something that jolted her awareness of the danger inherent in the ambiguities. Certainly the Earth/Minbari war was a jolt, a horrible revelation the Minbari were not expecting. Yet it forcefully brought the Grey Council (which included Delenn at the time) the one greatest individual they would ever meet, Valen, in the body of their seemingly worst enemy. The information was so shocking that the Council kept the information secret (even from Sinclair) for decades. METonkin has suggested that Delenn may not have been certain that John was the One Who Will Be right away and, being a “consummate realist,” instead of just trusting prophecy, used common sense, other sources (Draal, Sebastian and possibly Kosh) and intuition to reach that conclusion.

Rather, it seems that Delenn favors another source of guidance, the universe. Several times she has discussed the “universe” (as Delenn likes to call the intelligent vastness that creates and shapes all of life) and the following is her explanation of what the universe presents to us:

“We are Star Stuff. The Universe made manifest trying to figure itself out. And sometimes the Universe requires a change of perspective. At the right moment we are in the right place. The Universe puts us in places we can learn. Where ever we are is the right place at the right time and the pain is part of the process of being born. The Universe knows what it is doing.” (Delenn, A Distant Star)

continued,

Subj: Re:John and Delenn
Date: 96-07-20 15:39:13 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
part 3
For someone like Delenn, who believes she is chosen to fulfill Valen’s prophecies, sometimes the universe conflicts with these prophecies. She has found herself torn between absolute commitment to the prophecy and whatever “lessons” the universe presently offers. This certainly happened with the Markeb and with Sebastian. In both instances, Delenn had to choose between staying alive in order to fulfill prophecy, or dying in order to serve others. Regardless of the outcome, Delenn would still have to make a decision. By choosing to serve life, “life is my cause” was her response to Sebastian, she was willing to go against prophecy (and follow the lesson of the universe) in order to do what she believed prophecy wanted her to do in the first place: fight for the Light. In both instances (and one could surmise from other actions she has taken elsewhere) Delenn chose to follow her heart and the lesson the universe offers her rather than prophecy.

It was Vir, of all people, who offered an explanation of this contradiction in Geometry of Shadows. Some “currents” in the universe are ones we are to embrace and others avoid, yet they look alike and what might make you strong will weaken you, while what would seemingly weaken you will make you strong. This is the “gamesmanship” the universe plays. The only correct answer is that which is the most completely honest response.

As Lennier stated at the beginning of Comes the Inquisitor, the deed must be done for the right reason or, the work is corrupted. Delenn knows that. Given Delenn’s extensive training in meditation, religion and leadership she should have a highly developed sense of her own values and beliefs in contrast to someone like Londo, for example, who is rarely able to acknowledge his true thoughts or feelings. But what does it mean the work is “corrupted”? The “right reason” implies that the choice must come from the heart. Motivations coming from the heart or the head are very different. An old saying that I think is fairly close is “The heart has is reasons, whereof reason knows nothing” (Pascal) In looking at Londo’s actions, we can see how “dark” (in theatrical terms) he has become. The growing internal conflict in Londo between what he knows is true in his heart and his determination to play out political vendettas demonstrates what happens when the work becomes corrupted. Of course, Delenn could be deluding herself into thinking she loves John, but I doubt it and METonkin has eloquently argued on this point. She exudes too much serenity and peace of mind to have any strong internal conflicts between her head and her heart. As Sebastian suggested, the choices made from her heart were the true guide to whether or not she was Chosen. As far as Sebastian was concerned so long as she stayed true to her heart she was acting rightly and the work would not be corrupted.

The mind, even a Minbari mind as we have seen, can choose deceptively, justify actions that are not right and get far astray from the motivations of the heart and soul which are deeper and reflect the intrinsic nature of the person. Therefore, in order to act correctly so that the future is not only able to “stay on track” but the goal of saving the universe can be achieved, she MUST act from her heart or her deeds run the risk of being corrupted by the mind’s machinations. Thus she cannot “choose” to do something because she mentally thinks this serves a prophecy, she must go by her feelings even when it would seem imprudent. This is why she had no hesitancy in helping the Markeb. Death was not her concern, her need to care for others was paramount and thus she acted.

continued, hopefully one more time

Subj: Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
Date: 96-07-20 15:39:55 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Universe, Delenn & Prophecies
part 4
If someone told you what you would be doing 10 years from now, how would that affect your actions, daily and large scale goals? We can easily compound our problem by being too mentally focused on the goal and how to get there and dangerously misread a situation because we decide *this* event is connected to a particular prophecy while *that* event is not. It is really only in hindsight that one understands how various circumstances come together to make the present, no matter how seemingly unrelated they may have been to begin with, their connection can usually be seen by the discerning eye. Another reason why Delenn said that the prophecies were a poor guide to the future and could not really be understood until they were upon you.

Rather, I see Delenn as living from the heart and staying in the here-and-now, which allows one to bypass the chicken & egg nature of the closed loop. The only way to break free of the time travel loop created by Valen/Sinclair is to stay focused on the values that govern action. If she is taught that actions are corrupted or purified by right choices (such as learning the lessons offered by the universe), then she must continue to follow this guideline regardless if a decision, a person, or an event appears to involve a prophecy or not. To act differently, depending on if you think or suspect an action will serve a prophecy, even we, who rarely have to deal with this horrendous mind-twisting aura, can see the terrible flaws and hazards such second-guessing would bring. The task is simplified (and certainly requires humility, which Delenn has) by staying centered in the heart and in the here and now. In Delenn’s case, she believes her feelings for John are genuine and accepts them. How many times have we seen Delenn act in ways that demonstrates this love for John? These actions are neither deceptive nor delusional, for both motivations would corrupt the deed. Rather, her actions come from her heart and are genuine.

She may have come to some decision that the prophecies aren’t real until they are actually happening and that what has been “said” can only make sense as she lives it. Hence she chooses to live her life as fully as she can, without being focused on “now if I do this, how is it going to affect prophecy #2?” So in the beginning, when she first finds herself attracted to John, whether or not she knows that John was the one she will end up with, she allows herself to experience the feelings and stay in the here and now, because the feelings were what the universe gave her to learn. And she takes her lessons seriously. By being in the moment, this is the ONLY way to make sure she keeps in touch with her motivations and acts from the heart. Otherwise, the work becomes corrupted and events might not turn out as prophesied. She continues to take her “baby steps” into this relationship and is probably grateful, as METonkin said in “If It Isn’t Love” that the universe gives her someone to love and to be loved in return and who will be with her through the dangerous and painful journey from Darkness into Light. She needs him, emotionally as a woman, not because he is the One Who Will Be. By the time of Ceremonies and WWOE, when John is in danger right before her eyes as so beautifully described by METonkin, the depth of her feelings surface and all the discipline, professionalism and composure we so identify with her dissolves and we see the heart of a woman in love.

I have tried to present a defensible argument that Delenn is truly acting from her heart and loves John. She cannot lie to John or delude herself because to do so would corrupt her actions. She must be true to herself and true to others. All of her actions stem from a recognition that life is a process of learning and growing and wherever the universe places us is the right place to be.

the end! thanks!

Subj: Re:sheredin and Delenn- mayb
Date: 96-07-20 22:22:37 EDT
From: MScully8
Posted on: America Online

Delenn is way too calm and reserved to become an enemy of John’s. She is honest and sincere and would never be able to do anything that would hurt John in any way. They make a perfect couple. The both share the same ideals. You should take a good look at the two of them before making any serious decisions.

Subj: Re:Press
Date: 96-07-20 22:23:56 EDT
From: MScully8
Posted on: America Online

I agree whole heartedly!

Subj: Re:earrings?
Date: 96-07-21 00:03:03 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>>>When did she wear earrings?<<

>at *least* once, for the dinner date, black danglys to match the dress.

Of course, I missed that one. But I have never seen her wear them since. Shame, really!

Subj: Re: real time?
Date: 96-07-21 00:13:57 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

Hi
> but do you honestly believe that we’re going to be given a teaser of the future and never see how they get there? And what about after Londo sends them away?<

Do you subscribe to B5JMSLIST? its a digest of everything he says online. That’s where I get this stuff from. You could always ask him, too. I’m sure he could clarify better than any of us could. Maybe they should add the “time” aspect to the FAQs?

If my memory serves (shaky), JMS alluded we would see more of the flash forward (remember Sheridan dissappeared again when B4 time traveled the first time), so perhaps Sheridan popped back into the future, and remembers it. He says he’ll tell Delenn. However, JMS has said MANY times that when the series ends, it will end five years time in the story from the beginning of the series. He says there will also be no more time travel.

As for tying up loose ends, I’m sure he will do it. Old writing technique he uses: if a gun is fired in act three, there must be a gun on the wall in act one. If there is a gun on the wall in act one, it must be fired in act three. I suspect, though, that the whole scene with Londo in the future is actually a bullet!

I don’t attempt to second guess JMS. While most geniouses pull rabbits out of their hats, he pulls shrews, T-Rexes and the cast of _Le Miserables_out of his ever-so-average little cap. He says everything will be tied up, he says it will end where it is, and he has said from day one that this will be the end of TV for him (although he has been making noises like he might consider an anotholgy series…after he sleeps for a decade). It’s his show, and if he says it moves in real time, well, then I have to beleive him. It’s his fantasy! :)

<*> Boo

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-21 00:32:23 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>What was the name of that book which discusses Mira again? I forgot…

It is called “The Balkan Express: Fragments from the Other Side of the War,” by Slavenka Drakulic (W.W. Norton & Co., 1993, isbn 0-393-03496-8 hardcover, $19.95). I took it out of the public library where I live. It is about how the war in the Balkans affected people in other ways than causing physical injury, a series of essays written before and during the war.

The letter Mira Furlan wrote, and is referred to in the chapter about her, is only partly represented in the book (it’s an extremely long letter). However, there is a large amount of it printed, and enough detail for readers to understand exactly what happened to her.

This book is excellent. We are distanced from war here; this book brings it much closer. It’s saddening that someone we have come to admire and respect appears on these pages. However, Mira Furlan apparantly has amazing recuperative powers, and has landed squarely on her feet, too our delight.

<*> Boo

 

Subj: Re:Universe, Delenn & Propheci
Date: 96-07-21 01:14:12 EDT
From: ASteeleZ
Posted on: America Online

Barrie J: What an incredibly eloquent & insightful analysis of Delenn’s motivations! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Subj: Can’t Hurry Love
Date: 96-07-21 12:38:07 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Part 1 of 4
JMS has taken his own sweet time building the relationship between John Sheridan and
Ambassador Delenn. This love affair has progressed far too slowly for most of us,
accustomed as we are to the instant gratification provided by the majority of films and TV
shows, but to be fair, the seemingly endless duration of this courtship has been made even
longer because of a circumstance beyond JMS’s control: the vagaries of Warner Brothers’
scheduling of the B5 episodes. So what JMS seemingly designed to be the slow and
deliberate growth of an affectionate friendship into romantic love has been extended more
that it would be in a more perfect world – one with no TV commercials, no reruns, 39
episodes per TV season (yes, children, we *really* saw that many new episodes of a series
per year when I was growing up, believe it or not ). But there are moments to savor along
the way to this romance’s consummation and fulfillment, and the personalities of John and
Delenn, their very real characters, make it apparent that the relationship would have
unfolded just as it has regardless of how frequently new episodes of B5 were aired. Its
deliberate pacing is inherent in their respective temperaments and the situation in which
they find themselves.

While Delenn has held political and religious power on the highest levels in her world, she
willingly entered into a life where suddenly she is unsure of herself on a fundamental level.
Initiating a transformation into she knew not what to fulfill prophecy, she underwent a
massive physiological change, and almost definitely a psychological transposition as well.
(Those human hormones can do strange things; remember when you reached puberty?)
She has found herself rejected by many of her fellow Minbari, was expelled from her
position of temporal and spiritual power, and has not been accepted to any great degree by
the humans she is trying to reach out to.

When she met John Sheridan, learned just what kind of man he is, and realized that he
was the One she was destined for, her feelings for him may have confused her at first.
There are hints dropped here and there that the Minbari, like ST’s Vulcans, suppress and
control their stronger emotions. In “Babylon Squared”, while explaining to the Gray
Council why she cannot become the Minbari leader and why she must stay with the
humans, Delenn says of us, “The *passions we deplore* have taken them to their place in
the stars.”[emphasis mine] And of course there’s poor faithful Lennier, who (in
“Ceremonies of Light and Dark”) described his love for Delenn as “pure, perfect love”,
insisting to Marcus that it is emphatically not what humans would call romantic love (“to
love pure and chaste from afar” as in the song “The Impossible Dream”, with the accent
on impossible, perhaps?). Minbari are certainly *capable* of passion – they went
collectively mad at Dukhat’s death, resulting in the genocidal Earth-Minbari war – but
giving in to one’s emotions is probably frowned upon, and no wonder, if that war is an
example of what can happen when Minbari go on an emotional binge.
Subj: Re Can’t Hurry Love
Date: 96-07-21 12:38:17 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Part 2 of 4
I’ve also toyed with the notion, which BARRIEJ has also suggested, that as a result of her
vision (of Valen?) when she was a child, Delenn may have felt herself to be the Chosen
One from an early age, and did not seek a mate so as to be ready when the time predicted
by Valen came. Whatever the case, I think that Delenn decided to approach John, but to do
it slowly, so that she could learn to live with and understand human feelings, and because
of her probable lack of significant experience with relationships between the sexes in
general and her certain inexperience of relationships between human males and females in
particular.

John Sheridan is what I would describe as a 23rd century Jimmy Stewart type: an old-
fashioned Middle American small town boy with a dash of eccentricity to make him
interesting (his visit to the Dalai Lama at age 21 particularly demonstrates this). I suspect
that when he thinks about himself at all, he thinks of himself as just an ordinary man, and
is that rarity, a genuinely humble person (in the good, not the Uriah Heep sense).
Compare Sheridan with angst-ridden seeker of wisdom and truth Sinclair, self-sufficient
loner Picard, or brashly heroic womanizer Kirk and see if you don’t agree. Arriving at
Babylon 5 a grieving and guilt-ridden widower after a happy marriage cut tragically short,
John, it is rather touching and fitting to realize, meets Delenn on the very day that his
sister gives him his wife’s last message, the message that relieves his guilt and allows him
to find some sort of closure relating to Anna’s death(“Revelations”).

So Sheridan is ready to be open to Delenn’s attempts at friendship and more, although it is
at first probably the furthest thing from his mind that this beautiful, exotic creature, a
power on her own world and in her own right, might find him attractive; he thinks of
himself as just an average guy, remember. In an interview with Bruce Boxleitner
published in “Starlog” in the midst of season two, he described John and Delenn’s initial
relationship as “childlike”. I don’t know if that was a direction from JMS, or whether
Boxleitner originated it, but it is a very apt word. Childlike – able to appreciate new
experiences, curious, trusting, guileless – very well describes John and Delenn as they get
to know each other. (And childlike is *very* different in kind from childish, as in
petulant, self-centered, and immature.) So we have their quiet talks – remember the one
about “star stuff”? – and dinners, the gentle touch of a hand , a smile exchanged here, a
consoling hug there. They more and more often seek each other out for counsel and for
comfort as the universe grows darker around them. We all have our favorite scenes – mine
are Delenn soothing John to sleep as the White Star approaches Ganymede in “Messages
from Earth”, and John plaintively, and out of nowhere, saying “It’s funny, I…I wish Delenn
were here”, as his world begins to collapse around him with Santiago’s declararation of
martial law in “Point of No Return.”

Subj: Re Can’t Hurry Love
Date: 96-07-21 12:38:28 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

(Part 3 of 4)
Attempts to guess when Sheridan realized that Delenn loved him and that he loved her as
well are probably futile; as he said himself, he was in the midst of caring for her before he
knew what had hit him. And when that realization set in, John continued to proceed
slowly; this woman means a lot to him, so he took care not to give in to the impetuous
elements of his nature and perhaps frighten or offend that part of Delenn which is still
alien and Minbari. What is certain is that by the time of Earth Force’s attempted takeover
of the station, John was ready to declare himself, and he did it at a remarkably public time
and place(“Severed Dreams’). When he and Delenn meet in the crowded arrival and
departure area after she has saved him from certain death and Babylon 5 from falling into
enemy hands, he is brimming over with gratitude, respect, and love for her. Delenn would
have accepted his thanks on a “just good friends” basis – as partners together against the
Darkness – culminating in a firm, brisk handshake. It is John, who by transmuting that
comradely gesture into an old-world, ardent kiss on the hand, makes it very plain for
Delenn, and for all to see, sympathetic friend and departing foe alike, just how much she
means to him on a man to woman level. And so they stand together, arms around each
other as the crowd filling the Zocalo cheer them.

Things were progressing nicely at this point. Within a day or two of the kiss on the hand
comes the Rebirth Ceremony, held in Med Lab where Delenn is recovering from the knife
meant for Sheridan, and John verbally confirms his romantic declaration (the funeral for
the war dead is in the same episode, CLD, so it has to occur within a few days of SD, B5
time) . I had to laugh when he confided his “secret” to Delenn, since everyone present on
the station knew exactly how John felt by that time, gossip being what it is, but the look
on Delenn’s face made it apparent that she was a most receptive hearer of what he had to
say. The candlelight dinner in John’s quarters, along with the interrupted kiss, follows
soon after Delenn is recovered from her injury (“Sic Transit Vir” , the very next episode).
Their period of uncertainty, of waiting, was over as far as both were concerned; they are
ready to commit to each other in a loving, mature relationship.
Subj: Re Can’t Hurry Love
Date: 96-07-21 12:38:36 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

(Part 4 of 4)
But… and this is a big but…at this point, everything regarding John and Delenn and their
romance came to a screeching halt, at least as far as the audience can see. And I really
don’t believe that JMS would not show us any major events in the relationship unless the
man is self-destructive; it’s a TV show, not his private fantasy! So, we have to ask, why?
While JMS can claim that he threw us a crumb with a future kid and a kiss in part II of
“War without End”, while he might assert that “Hey, there’s a war on, naturally John and
Delenn don’t have time for much of a personal life”, what JMS is *not* doing with
respect to this romance is very unrealistic and artificial. If these lovers feel that strongly
about each other and got so very close to kissing (centimeters, wasn’t it?), they’d have
found an opportunity to continue that highly interesting activity ASAP! The heightened
tensions, uncertainties, and emotions that are byproducts of times of war would also make
it more, not less, likely that Delenn and Sheridan would give in to their feelings.

Based on STV and subsequent installations in the B5 saga, I fear that JMS is going to
increasingly use secondary plot lines in an attempt to postpone this love affair’s fulfillment.
And I hope I’m wrong, but I’m beginning to believe (as are others; I’ve seen their postings)
that he’ll start reverting to stale, hokey plot devices such as those used last season on “Lois
and Clark” for the same purpose: keep audiences tuning in hoping for some action, any
action, and delay that action for as long as possible and long beyond any pretense to
believability. Prolonged frustration is not my idea of entertainment; most of us get enough
of that in everyday life. And does JMS really believe that once John and Delenn are
together, he’ll lose a good part of his audience? One of Babylon 5’s greatest charms for
me is that despite all the hardware, software, and firmware, the galactic politics and
mysticism, it is first of all a story about *real* people we can care about. John and
Delenn, imaginary as they may be but real to us the audience, deserve better from their
creator.

Subj: re:honey?
Date: 96-07-21 23:33:24 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

Well I watched it again, several times to make sure that I have the scene you are referring to.
I am absolutely sure that all John says is, “Del–enn, just listen to me.” He seems to mumble the last half of her name, it makes it sound strange. I didn’t even notice this the first couple of times because I was looking for something that sounded like honey and could find nothing. It seams that we have deperate need of the last five episodes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subj: permission
Date: 96-07-21 23:37:14 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

Maybe Delenn was just waiting for permission. She now has it from Zanthras in a way of speaking. Sheridan knows they are going to be together 17 years from now, and therefore must have been together in the near future. I’d say things are going to go really fast after this.

Tricia

Subj: series ending
Date: 96-07-21 23:43:31 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

Everyone keeps talking about the time line, I might as well join in. Suppose in this next Season
David is born, they defeat the shaddows, great season cliff-hanger, and in season five we jump 17 years into the future and finish out the series in 2278.
Or the series finale could jump into the future and show us that day in detail.
Or the scene we saw in WWOE2 was an alternate time line that never happens.
Tricia

Subj: Re:series ending
Date: 96-07-22 00:49:18 EDT
From: CLynn8982
Posted on: America Online

<<Or the scene we saw in WWOE2 was an alternate time line that never happens.>>

As much as that idea appeals to me (and makes more sense now that jms has decided to utilize time travel into his story), I believe I read somewhere that jms himself stated that the future we saw in WWOE was the “real” future. Anyone else know anything about this?
Subj: Re:series ending
Date: 96-07-22 02:20:15 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

He did say that – (the “real” future). He also said that the show ends five years after it began – in our time and B5’s. I am no longer trying to outguess JMS. It is much less stressful.

Al

Subj: Re:permission
Date: 96-07-22 17:14:34 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<I’d say things are going to go really fast after this.>>

I’ve gotten very pessimistic about this. Yes, I think things will proceed in the next three episodes, but I have this forboding feeling, they’ll come to a screeching pause after that due to events that occur in the next two episodes after that(Shadow Dancing and Z’ha’Dum). I don’t think Season 4, or at least the first half of it is going to be a lot of fun for Sheridan/delenn fans.

Subj: Re: Delenn watching him sleep
Date: 96-07-22 17:35:32 EDT
From: Phantom399
Posted on: America Online

Somebody at work had an interesting “I wonder…” about this. They kind of wondered if this wasn’t Delenn watching him after they got married (or whatever they do in the future) and she knows that she is expecting a baby but hasn’t had a chance to tell him yet?

Subj: Re:permission
Date: 96-07-22 17:35:42 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

A little thought to cheer everybody up – SHeridan and Delenn have to get back together and/or stay together after Delenn’s flashforward with the stranger at the door. The way I understand it, this Minbari 3-night watch ritual seen in her flashforward takes place before a relationship gets to a certain level, so David can’t have been concieved as of this point. JMS said that the future Sheridan saw in WWE2 was the real future, so they will definutely have a kid, which means they will have to get back together at least temporarily some time after who-ever-it-is shows up.
(I think that was all sound logic, wasn’t it? I hope so!)

Ten weeks and counting . . . .sigh.

Subj: Did the Relationship Halt?
Date: 96-07-22 22:44:50 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

You might as well know, I ttoo have been knocking around reasons why the relationship “stopped” and am posting them here.. more food for thought.

part 1
As fans, we want to see this couple together, happy in their love and moving forward in
their relationship without inexplicable theatrical props to keep them apart. It is hard to say
whether this the delay is a deliberate tease or a natural phase in the relationship based on
consistent traits within each character.

Is there a halt in the relationship’s development? Depends on where you draw the line.
Certainly neither have kissed each other in real time, which is one landmark they have yet
to reach. Since STV, Bester sided with them and G’Kar joined the alliance, Kosh was
assassinated and they took B4 through time. John met Delenn in the future and got an
earful about their future together which could give him something to look forward to. In
WWOE we have at least one more demonstration by Delenn of her love (which is always
enjoyable to watch but it doesn’t get them to or past that darn kiss!) and John’s new found
knowledge of the future. But in SOT and Interludes there was no progression of the arc.
All we have is a teaser scene in Delenn’s quarters in SOT (suggestive, but not very
substantive) and in I&E, Delenn’s very public stroking of John’s arm, her way, perhaps,
of letting him know she fully trusts and has faith in him, as well as expressing her new
found human-feminine interest in him.

We must keep in mind that much of our perception of the relationship comes from seeing
the romance develop mostly through Delenn’s eyes (sometimes literally *in* her eyes,
thanks to the brilliant acting of Mira Furlan). She has a head start on sorting out her
feelings about him, getting used to the fact that she loves him, and adjusting to waking up
each day to another day of business as usual and maybe, if she’s lucky, an occasional word
or two outside of the professional arena with the one man she cares the most deeply about.
We’ve cheered her steps through the relationship, watched her friendship and attraction to
John grow and see her learn to dress like a beautiful woman. Certainly in Ceremonies she
understood enough of what he was saying to know he wasn’t talking about friendship!

By STV, that famous scene with the almost -kiss which plunged the internet into overload
and was the last satisfactory advance of the arc, we have the most telling indication of the
status of their relationship. You could see the look of disappointment in Delenn’s face as
John puts duty before romance (and we collectively yelled “John, turn off the damn
monitor!”) although she perfectly understood why. She herself has spent a lifetime putting
duty before her personal life. But Delenn has been conscious of her feelings a lot longer
than John and she was ready for this kiss and if her new female hormones haven’t failed
her, like any person in love, she probably dreamed about it long before then! Although
John certainly hasn’t been cold or distant from her, he’s only just realized his feelings.

continued

Subj: Re:permission
Date: 96-07-22 22:45:29 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

did the relationship halt?

part 2
Is John holding back or Delenn? Since Delenn did not grow group up human, and
therefore bypassed the many cultural issues (some quite dysfunctional) about relationships,
if she wanted to speed things, up, she wouldn’t have let Ivanova stop her. While John
expresed his feelings to her, she said nothing at the time (a knife in the back didn’t help),
so he is unaware of her state of mind. It is now Delenn’s turn to let him know how she
feels, and she started to do that in STV. She knows the change in their relationship is a
new discovery for him. Loving someone so close to the center of the storm requires
courage and a very strong love. Prophecy alone is not going to help them through the
Darkness. Rather they must survive by the courage in their own hearts and the strength of
their love. Although this is a very compatable couple, John is young enough to be her son
(talk about May-December romances!), speaks no Minbari and has yet to express much
interest in that culture. Delenn is very perceptive and knows John loves a woman who is
both human and part alien. There has got to be some concerns or issues they may both
have which need to be addressed. Although they trust each other professionally and as
friends, a relationship requires an entirely different level of communication, trust and
understanding. Not only must they both be certain of their feelings, but they must certain
that any social, psychological or biological concerns are resolved.

We can only guess what is going on in John’s mind, and these guesses are reasonable
ones. Remember, he is just now realizing how he feels, it is a new discovery for him.
He’s in love for the first time in years! But he has tremendous responsibilities and
demands on his time. Except for collecting secrets and conspiracies and playing a little
baseball, he doesn’t have much in the way free time and he eats in mess halls with the
crew. He doesn’t know how long Delenn has loved him although he certainly realizes that
there is an undercurrent of comfortableness, intimacy and closeness and a warm and loyal
friendship between them for over a year. Unlike Delenn, he has yet to incorporate the
change in the relationship into his daily routines. METonkin has suggested that normally
John is more impulsive and the slow progression on his part suggests the extreme
importance of the relationship to him. He has little knowledge of Minbari social graces (as
evidenced by the faux pas in Confessions) and does not even speak the language. He may,
as METonkin said, be concerned about offending her if he tries to progress the relationship
too fast and too soon.

>>The one word I would use to describe John and Delenn’s courtship is “old-
fashioned”, as the word “courtship” itself implies – the gallant kiss on the hand after
she saves his bacon in SD being the most pertinent example of this. Considering
his nature – he’s an impetuous, innovative risk taker – the slow pace at which John
is going at this relationship suggests its extreme importance to him. For all her
beauty and her “humanness”, for all her kindness, compassion, gentleness, etc.,
remember that Delenn is still inescapably *alien* in some respects (the culture that
formed her certainly is), and she is a most formidable woman in many ways to
boot. John can’t always predict her responses as he could intuit those of a fully
human woman! << (METonkin)

continued

Subj: Did the relationship halt?
Date: 96-07-22 22:46:22 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

part 3
Another possible motive that might cause him to go slowly would be the military part of
himself which is evaluating the potential dangers they both face if knowledge that they are a
couple becomes well known. The safety of the station and of Delenn are important to him.
John knows that factions on both Earth and Minbar are not favorable to either of them. The
Minbari Warrior caste still hates him and is hostile to her and as John said to Kosh in
Interludes, even his own government wants him dead. And then there are the Shadows,
whom he believes killed his wife, Anna. In Ceremonies, violent Nightwatch mercenaries
still lurking on the station kidnapped Delenn and a Minbari Captain. It was during this
event that he realized he loved her. As we have seen in RTDP, SOZ and CL&D, John is
very protective of his women (and potentially a protective father) and he may be wondering
(if his is concerned about potential threats), just how stable is their world? All of this could
have been on his mind from STV up to WWOE and might make him wonder if their
relationship could stimulate further actions. In Hunter, Prey, John made it clear he likes it
best when the odds are in his favor. What does he think of the odds now and is this the
concern which brought the relationship to a halt? Contrast this to Delenn, who, after the
knifing, has not hidden her feelings for John from Ivanova, the command staff in the
briefing room (where she stroked John’s arm) or the crew of the White Star. She does not
seem concerned about what others will think.

Now with WWOE, we have the unknown ramifications of John’s trip into the future on his
perceptions of the relationship. When John first returned from his time trip, Sinclair asked
him how it went. John said he wasn’t sure and that he would have to think about it awhile,
suggesting he was profoundly affected and had a mixed bag of reactions and questions
about what it meant, both personally and in light of the war against the Shadows. Then, he
practically blurted some or all of it to Delenn, but changed his mind. John is a creative
thinker (his right call on the Trigatti and the alien probe are examples) and if the future
Delenn was interrogated and expressed a concern about David’s safety, it is reasonable for
him to wonder why their son must be safe, but he might also think, “how long has this
been going on?” Without Babylon 5, where else could they go as a couple, as a family?
Earth? Mars or another earth colony? Minbar? Forget the Vorlons, Centauri Prime or the
Narns, maybe Epsilon 3? Will this information give him more reason to be cautious about
getting involved with Delenn for now, or will he decide to take his chances with the future?

continued, to part 4, the ending

Subj: did the relationship halt?
Date: 96-07-22 22:46:45 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

part 4

For those who “date” the relationship by Delenn’s growing comfortableness with her new
human body and increased attraction to and love for John, things might seem a little slow.
For those who include John’s own *conscious* awareness in the equation, the relationship
is only now starting to unfold. What we do know is that each step of the arc has been
presented in a manner that makes it memorable (complete with leitmotif-style melodies),
such that I want to use adjectives like “poetic,” “sensual,” “magical,” “wondrous,”
“enchanting,” “exquisite,” “poignant,” and of course “romantic.” One wonders, if JMS is
true to form, if we will have more of same or if we must face a Dark Night of the Soul and
wait until he’s through teasing the daylights out of us. Of course the time travel episode
was inevitable and had to be put somewhere! Although why here, is not discernible to us,
who must wait for the revelations from JMS’s mind to us. Given his creative genius, I
doubt he lacks for material to present if the relationship was advanced further to making
them “an item.” So, either we will have to watch this drag on and run the risk of loosing
interest in the relationship because the teasers frustrate the heck out of us or he will resolve
the situation, hopefully satisfactorily and soon!

 

Subj: Re:Universe, Delenn & Propheci
Date: 96-07-22 22:48:32 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Thanks! this was a real hard one, them time warp loops had me going for a long time…

Barrie

Subj: ‘Tween Seasons Musings…
Date: 96-07-22 23:03:00 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

Thank you SO much Barrie and METonkin for your postings. I’ve downloaded them and I’ll read them to my good buddy Carol and I’m sure the speculations (and disagreements :) we’ll have over them will get us SERIOUS J&D fans through at least another week. ::sigh::

Thanks again.

Kimberley
Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-22 23:54:43 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

Has it occured to anyone else that, stipulating for the moment that that was Sheridan’s wife in the door in WWOE, maybe Delenn was the intruder, not the person at the door? Could it be that John & Delenn were, for lack of a better word, caught?

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-23 00:06:56 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

Someone who actually heard JMS say this back me up, but I believe he has said that this scene was part of the three night “watching him while he sleeps” ritual.
Actually, this ritual seems like a *really* great idea IMHO. During my premarriage sleeping arrangement with my husband I was always asleep before him, so I never really got the opportunity to observe him asleep. This whole Minbari story about a man’s *true* face appearing while asleep is bogus. The *real* reason to watch him sleep for three nights is to check out how much he snores. Had I known better . . .

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-23 00:18:42 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

***laughing too hard to respond, Its a myth***

Subj: what if????
Date: 96-07-23 01:41:27 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

What if:
David isn’t concieved in the next couple of seasons? No one has said anything about the true age of David. He could be 10, 3, or two months old. We only know that it was “17 years since he started the crusade.” which he has already started in real time. And David is safe. That is all.

Sheridan has to become part Minbari? The ONE WHO WAS became Minbari, the ONE WHO IS became human, does it seam logical the the ONE WHO WILL BE also takes the step toward interracial awareness?? Although he doesn’t look Mimbari in the future, it doesn’t mean that he hasn’t changed. His human traits might be stronger than his Mimbari side if this turns out to be true.

(This is a really, REALLY crazy one, forgive me, it has been toooooooo long without a fresh episode)
Delenn cannot carry the baby, so they ask Anna to surragate for them? Talk about turning soap opera, wasn’t that an episode of All My Children?

Tricia

Subj: B5 Article in TV Guide
Date: 96-07-23 17:17:25 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

The July 27 issue of TV Guide has a feature story on Babylon 5 and its fans, including a mention of the “smouldering passions” between John and Delenn, and a description of the triple- encrypted computer file where JMS stores the complete B5 storyline – it had to be *triple* encrypted,
didn’t it! ?

Subj: Re:series ending
Date: 96-07-24 01:47:59 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Or the scene we saw in WWOE2 was an alternate time line that never happens.

JMS has stated several times (since the scene with Londo is making everyone nervous) that it will happen. John may try to change the future…or will his actions ensure it happen? (JMS is such a tease) Either way, though, he says we are seeing the future he intened, and it will happen.
<*> Boo

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-24 01:56:22 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Has it occured to anyone else that, stipulating for the moment that that was Sheridan’s wife in the door in WWOE, maybe Delenn was the intruder, not the person at the door? Could it be that John & Delenn were, for lack of a better word, caught?<

Caught? Hmmmmmm. If Morden is legally dead (see “In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum”), so is the only other person who would have a reason to object to a woman in John’s quarters — Anna. If Anna is dead, John is a widower. He is a free agent. What is he supposed to do, wait for her? He thinks she’s dead. Technically, he’s not doing anything wrong. I have no idea about Delenn.

Emotionally, however, if Anna walks in, you get hit with a) why is she alive? b) oh, THAT’S why she’s alive! and c) Uh, Oh…John’s the former wife of this zombie. Does she still feel for him? Is he gonna kill me?

Nothing like a Shadow and a jealous wife rolled into one.
I’d not only drop a snowglobe, I’d wet my pants!
<*> Boo

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-24 01:59:22 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>The *real* reason to watch him sleep for three nights is to check out how much he snores. Had I known better . . .<

ROTFLMAO!
I slept with my betrothed while camping. I had to watch him sleep. he stole the blankets, sweat heavily and hogged the mattress. Good thing I loved him, ’cause I slept on the ground…
I might remarry someday…I always said, I will marry a amn, but I won’t live with him! Sorry, I want my OWN bed!
<*> Boo

Subj: Re:what if????
Date: 96-07-24 02:00:57 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Delenn cannot carry the baby, so they ask Anna to surragate for them? Talk about turning soap opera, wasn’t that an episode of All My Children?<

No, they are doing that on DS9 to explain away Nana Visitor’s pregnancy (talk about a soap opera, there’s a huge hairy can of worms!)
<*> Boo

 

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-24 02:01:06 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

Boo:
Point is, we don’t know how far in the future this is. Anna may be found to be “alive” and reconnect with Sheridan, at which point Delenn may get left behind. (All flashforwards start out looking simpler than they are)

Al

Subj: Re: Delenn watches him sleep
Date: 96-07-24 02:02:40 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Boo: Point is, we don’t know how far in the future this is. <

That is true. And we don’t know if the servants of the Shadows can be “deprogrammed.”

Sheesh, maybe Morden is a nice guy after all?
<*> Boo

Subj: Web site!
Date: 96-07-24 02:04:18 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

Quick plug: In case you haven’t seen it, thiis Mira Furlan site is the best out there.
http://www.hookup.net/~bjust/B5
Bye!
<*> Boo

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-07-24 18:33:38 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

The Balkan Express

Subj: Re:Universe, Delenn & Propheci
Date: 96-07-24 18:35:49 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Well said, Barrie, well said!

— barb

Subj: Re:did the relationship halt?
Date: 96-07-24 18:41:57 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I am not one who thinks it has moved too slowly — I am more peeved at the long wait before what will most assuredly be the advance of this storyline :) !

— barb

Subj: Re:Terrible Price
Date: 96-07-24 23:04:06 EDT
From: ZETAleader
Posted on: America Online

NOT IVANOVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subj: Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-27 12:41:43 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

Zathras say where everyone go? This not good! Zathras say The One Who Is and The One Who Will Be deserve talking about!

Subj: Anna walks in on Delenn & John
Date: 96-07-27 18:27:55 EDT
From: JHufferEsq
Posted on: America Online

The only reason Delenn would drop the snow globe upon seeing a woman walk into Sheridan’s quarters is that the woman posed a surprise threat to Delenn’s obvious non-platonic relationship with Sheridan. The Shadow’s attempt to trap Sheridan with a pretty earth woman/Shadow servant failed. The only earth woman that could cause this shock is Anna.

Sheridan is still alive after going to Za’ha’dum, since delenn warns the earlier Sheridan not to go there, yet isn’t surprised to see him alive. However, Kosh told Sheridan that Sheridan would die if he went to Za’ha’dum. Obviously, John’s death is spiritual rather than physical.

Therefore, Anna has joined the Shadows… and Sheridan is probably forced to confront and maybe kill her when he goes to Za’ha’dum.

Subj: Win or Lose?
Date: 96-07-27 18:34:04 EDT
From: JHufferEsq
Posted on: America Online

It seems obvious that the Shadows lose… the question is how much the Conspiracy of Light’s victory costs. Do John & Delenn escape the Centauri homeworld? They may have to sacrifice their lives and their son to win. John may have so many emotional scars from the war, such as maybe finding Anna is the Shadow’s servant and having to kill her, that he can’t enjoy happiness.

Subj: Re:Win or Lose?
Date: 96-07-27 22:09:19 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

>>It seems obvious that the Shadows lose… the question is how much the Conspiracy of Light’s victory costs. Do John & Delenn escape the Centauri homeworld? They may have to sacrifice their lives and their son to win. John may have so many emotional scars from the war, such as maybe finding Anna is the Shadow’s servant and having to kill her, that he can’t enjoy happiness.>>

If JMS does that to us, he’s a reall meany! this is not his personal fantasy, as someone said, this is public TV about a very popular couple who are bringing up the ratings. That the TV Guide would mention this relationship and give Mira prime time and qoute her, shows how much they are trying to add appeal. so death ain’t such a good strategy.

I know that I would loose alot of incentive to continue watching the show if JMS is morbid enough to show John or Delenn’s death 2 years before the 5 year arc ends… this culture isn’t designed to have us see our own deaths. and I think alot of other fans feel the same way, buddy.

NO DYING on B5 in the future or now!

Subj: Re:Anna walks in on Delenn &
Date: 96-07-28 00:49:21 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

You say “Sheridan is forced to confront and maybe kill her”

As in “Do not kill the one who is already dead”?

Subj: Re:Anna walks in on Delenn &
Date: 96-07-28 08:35:14 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<You say “Sheridan is forced to confront and maybe kill her”

As in “Do not kill the one who is already dead”?>>

No, that prophecy applies only to Londo, given to him by Lady Morella.

Macker

Subj: Re:Win or Lose?
Date: 96-07-28 11:19:09 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

It would even be hard for me to watch the show if Sheridan’s spirit is defeated to the point where he can’t enjoy the love he feels for Delenn and she for him anymore. Unless there’s hope for a reunification of their souls after Z’ha’dum, MY spirit will get depressed!

— barb

Subj: Delenn’s Past relationships
Date: 96-07-28 13:01:12 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

Several have suggested that the shadowy figure in Delenn’s flashforward might be her mother or daughter. We’ve briefly brought up the subject of whether or not she has had previous relationships. Based on discussions with BPowell170 and METonkin, i’ve decided she hasn’t had previous Minbari relationships. here’s why.

the prophecies were ambiguous and Delenn may have known that she lived in the time of prophecy but not exactly when the events would happen. If she were in love on Minbar, do you expect she might have said, “oh, by the way dear, I have this destiny and sometime during our marriage, I’m going to leave you for another man and he’ll be an alien.” Can you imagine our Delenn doing something like that to another? She may be someone who withholds secrets, but she doesn’t deliberately hurt people for her own personal ends. She will sacrifice herself, but won’t expect others to follow her. Several times she tried to get Lennier to leave, warning him of the dangers ahead if he stayed with her. Yes, she might have warned a lover of this future, and in love with her he might have agreed to this to be with her, but an aide (even if he is secretly in love with her) versus a husband and children are different bananas and I really can’t see Delenn letting a husband, or her child, go through this. She’d love them too and wouldn’t want to be separated from them, or watch them be in pain.

Secondly, remember that the Minbari are a proud people and that includes some degree of snobbery, apparently. Neroon called her an affront to the purity of their race. Whether he meant it as part of his hostility towards humans or towards all non-Minbari species. Since ancient Minbari had never encountered humans before Sinclair, my guess is that this is an attitude towards all non-Minbari species. there are probably few, if any, mix blood among them. So it would be hard for a Minbari to accept his wife was leaving him for some less-evolved alien male and leave their children.

Delenn wouldn’t know *when* events would happen that signaled her need to get invovled the B5, John and the Rangers. It could be just when she’s getting married (talk about wedding night visitors!), pregnant with her firdt child (a Minbari child, mind you) or when her kids are older. Suddenly she’d pack up and leave them? Are you kidding?

No, based on the above, I believe Delenn would want to avoid such problems and would wait.

ok, comments?

Barrie

Subj: Re:Anna walks in on Delenn &
Date: 96-07-28 14:18:39 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

I know. But if she returns, perhaps the chance is there for Londo. (That or if Sheridan “dies” in spirit.”)

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-28 15:05:38 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

I’ve been on vacation, as, I assume, have many others. After a long absense, it’s kind of hard to get back into the thick of things–just reading and processing three weeks of postings is a major feat!

Nice to see we’ve made enough of a stir to warrant mention on the Babcom communications center screen. Of course, we’ve always known we were the best board on the service!

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-28 18:42:01 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<<I really can’t see Delenn letting a husband, or her child, go through this.>>

Two problems with this theory (I’ll say beforehand I happen to agree with you, but this board is getting boring and a little morbid, so maybe a little debate will liven things up)
1. Delenn probably didn’t know about the prophecies her whole life. She could have gotten into a realtionship before she knew what was ahead. I think she probably would have broken the relationship off when she found out that she had a different ‘destiny’ (provided there weren’t children – I’m not sure what would happen if there were)
2. ‘Relationship’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘marriage.’ She could have had relationships that didn’t work out. Considering that she is an adult (JMS said that she was somewhere in her late forties or early fifties, about the equivalent 25 to 30 human years) it seems unlikely that she wouldn’t have had some kind of romantic relationship, even if it wasn’t terribly serious.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-28 23:24:16 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Actually, there is a very good argument for why Delenn hasn’t had any other relationships. Her status amongst her people. She was touched by Valen at a very young age (re: the story she told in Confessions and Lamentations). When we first meet her in Season 1, she’s already a Satai and member of the Grey council. Very shortly thereafter, she’s wanted as the head of the council. She was already acknowledged as Dukhat’s successor and had worked with him for a very long time. Dont you think any normal hot blooded Minbari would have been intimidated by that? Seems to me Delenn’s status was exceedingly high, and to some, somewhat pre-ordained (I keep thinking of the Dalai Lama m’self). Baser emotions and/or needs were probably considered beneath her. She could (and did) have friends such as Draal and the poetess in the War Prayer, but lovers? I don’t know about that.

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-29 00:29:42 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>Zathras say where everyone go? This not good! Zathras say The One Who Is and The One Who >Will Be deserve talking about!

Watching the Olympics and news coverage of bombings, methinks…
.. does this make Zathras sad? It makes me sad.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-29 00:34:55 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

> Baser emotions and/or needs were probably considered beneath her. She could (and did) have friends such as Draal and the poetess in the War Prayer, but lovers? I don’t know about that.<

Why? that’s not only a human hangup, but an American one at that. Remember the Minbari taught Marcus “delight?” That could include love of the spirit and flesh. They probably don’t view it as base or sinful, as many people do.
<*> boo

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-29 13:42:51 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

I’m here. It’s just that in this long re-run season, we seem to be covering the same ground over and over. Perhaps, if we get some *spoilers* from the UK in August, it will revive us a bit.

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-29 13:49:54 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Which “everyone” do you mean? I’m here, just not posting a lot right now, too busy writing longer stuff on this couple. And again, as others have said, we’ve been covering many topics a lot over several months, same thing. waiting for the fall.

maybe we could create some games… i donno

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationships
Date: 96-07-29 15:46:04 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I’m in full agreement, Barrie. She might have “dated” some (or whatever adolescent dating ritual might be called on Minbar), but nothing serious in adulthood until John. Perfectly in keeping with her sense of respect for others.

— barb

Subj: SHADOWS,DELENN&SHERIDAN
Date: 96-07-29 17:05:08 EDT
From: JSandst502
Posted on: America Online

I AM NEW HERE AND AM JUST STARTING O GET CAUGHT UP ON WHATS HAPPENING.ITS
HARD TO BELIEVE I’VE MISSED THIS SHOW FOR SO LONG.CAN ANYONE OUT THERE ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FOR ME.WHO IS ANNA? AM I CORRECT IN ASSUMING SHE IS SHERIDANS WIFE? I MISSED SEVERAL EPISODES WHEN THE RANGERS CAME INTO THE
SERIES. HOW LONG HAVE SHERIDAN AND DELENN KNOW ABOUT THEM? I AM ALSO VERY CONFUSED ABOUT THE MINBARI CASTS.ALSO ABOUT MINBARI HISTORY.I SAW THE EPISODE WHEN SINCLAIR WENT BACK IN TIME AND THEY CALLED HIM VALEN, IS HE THE ONE WHO RECONSTRUCTED THE MINBARI CULTURE? IF ANYONE WOULD SHED SOME LIGHT ON ALL THIS I WOULD APPREICATE IT. I ENJOY THE SHOW VERY MUCH AND WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND MORE. THANKS!

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-29 18:14:52 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<.. does this make Zathras sad? It makes me sad.>>

Zathras say will answer in board for Zathras.

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-07-29 18:53:11 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

Barrie — no one would ever accuse you of abandoning the board. You are one of the people who has kept it interesting.
:-)
Your pal,
“Sarah”

Subj: Re:SHADOWS,DELENN&SHERIDAN
Date: 96-07-29 20:08:28 EDT
From: ZETAleader
Posted on: America Online

JSandst502, Anna is Sheridans presumably dead wife.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-29 20:39:24 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Explanation – when I wrote “baser”, I didn’t mean it as in a sinful way – but as a physical response vs. a spiritual one. And that is *not* “American”, btw – many holy people of different world religions tend to give up physical needs for more spiritual ones. It’s being more cerebral, that’s all. And there are many forms of delight, not all of them sexual. I didn’t glean that particular aspect from Marcus, btw.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-30 01:06:50 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

Hi there!
>Explanation – when I wrote “baser”, I didn’t mean it as in a sinful way – but as a physical response vs. a spiritual one. And that is *not* “American”, btw – many holy people of different world religions tend to give up physical needs for more spiritual ones. It’s being more cerebral, that’s all. And there are many forms of delight, not all of them sexual. I didn’t glean that particular aspect from Marcus, btw.<

“Base” has a lot of different meanings (I just looked them up; I have a library lecturn-dictionary). One is “meian, of low moral value.” Another is “a foundation, of a supporting nature.” which one you meant makes all the difference. No wonder I was confused, you meant one thing and I assumed another (?).

When I refered to “American” I meant the prevailing attitude that sex is dirty and sinful, partially due to exploitation of women in pornography, partially due to ignorance. There is an old saying; “In Europe, sex is a fact of life. In America, it is an obsession.”

I am quite aware of how many religions and spiritualities suggest or require the faithful or ordained to refrain from sexual activity (as well as other bodily pleasures). This is not because these faiths feel sex is dirty, but because sex diverts energy away from prayer, service and focus.

Delight might not include sex. But then again, it might! (I got this from Marcus…) No one has told yet…I was speculating. Ffor me, it sure as heck is delight!

I honestly think Delenn never “indulged” for the simple reason that she was too busy with her career and destiny. For a woman of her youth, she has spent a remarkable amount of time in service to her people, to peace and to her faith. She is extrordinarily devoted to what she believes to be her fate and place in the universe. Now that she has been kicked off the Grey Council (the swines!) she has had five seconds to look around…and that’s when she saw John. ironically, he might be another piece of her destiny, no?

Boo

Subj: Re:SHADOWS,DELENN&SHERIDAN
Date: 96-07-30 08:10:45 EDT
From: Zembala
Posted on: America Online

JSandSt502: Go search the WWW under “Babylon 5″ and you will find a wealth of information to catch you up on this incredible show. In particular, “The Lurker’s Guide to B5″ web site, which has a synopsis, photos & analysis of *every* episode to date (the next best thing to watching them all!) and much, much more. Have fun! (Also, don’t use all caps in your posts — it looks like your screaming. We all made this mistake at least once when we were “newbies.”)

Subj: Are You a Mira Fan?
Date: 96-07-30 22:02:00 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

If you are a fan of Mira Furlan’s, please consider attending the Star Trek 30th Anniversary con in Valley Forge, Pa. on August 24 and 25. She is the only B5 person speaking. We would like to get as much support for her as possible. Please spread the word around the net, and tell your B5-loving friends!
Email me if you would like con info….
See you there!

Cristina
<*>
eqris@aol.com

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-31 02:53:58 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

SLV, as usual, you are a thougthful person,

but I disagree, I’ll start with the first for now.

consider other cultures. Many of my Jewish friends, on Passover, often tell their children stories about Hebrew history, so that very early in life they know their culture’s beliefs.

When I was growing up, I was innundanted with information about the second coming of Christ. I was told what would happen and why, and all the events and signs that would indicate its immanence. I can remember being scared one day in the middle of the afternoon and looking out at the sky from school, seeing how dark it was and thinking, “Oh no, this is it!”
Delenn, in Confessions, had a formal dinner with a spare place for Valen, in remembrance of his return. I fully expect that like earth people, Minbari discuss their culture and beliefs in t heir homes, in their ceremonies. So that it is very likely that as a child Delenn knew about Valen, the prophecies, the last war and what would happen in the future.

barrie

Subj: HELLO???
Date: 96-07-31 11:33:05 EDT
From: Striker08
Posted on: America Online

I just had a thought, what if the voice that said hello was not Anna’s but his true self. Just a crazy thought.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-07-31 12:02:47 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

Barrie, you made some good points, but I still disagree. Sure, she would have heard about all of the prophecies, if not at home, then certainly at Temple. But that doesn’t mean she thought they were about her. If you remember, she was still having doubts right up to the time when she entered the chrysalis.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-08-01 00:54:44 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

 

>Sure, she would have heard about all of the prophecies, if not at home, then certainly at Temple. But that doesn’t mean she thought they were about her. If you remember, she was still having doubts right up to the time when she entered the chrysalis. >>

But don’t forget the vision she had as child, JMS said it was vip in terms of her sense of her destiny…

 

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-08-01 00:57:29 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
thanks sarah! :)
barrie

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-01 01:41:18 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I just had a thought, what if the voice that said hello was not Anna’s but his true self. Just a crazy thought. >>

…and if the man’s true self comes in from a different room, speaking in a high voice, the woman has the option of ending the relationship very VERY quickly…
Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-01 01:52:54 EDT
From: Badinov
Posted on: America Online

>>…and if the man’s true self comes in from a different room, speaking in a high voice, the woman has the option of ending the relationship very VERY quickly…<<
To Wong Kosh-thanks for everything, Julie Sheridan :-@

Although, given the uniforms, how could you tell if *he’s* in drag?
Badinov
Subj: Leitmotif for D&J
Date: 96-08-01 23:26:31 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online
Barrie asked about the leitmotif used for D&J a few weeks ago. My latest theory is that there are two (or two variations on a single theme). The theory is this: the harp music by itself or with very little accompanyment is used when D&J have a kind of “rebirth moment” (for lack of a better word) — or a major turning point or discovery in their relationship, or about themselves while engaged in a conversation with the other. The variation on that theme, with more orchestra — usually strings — is used in the more traditional “love scenes.”

So far, my research has the harp at Delenn’s re-entrance to the council, the scene in Confessions, the scene in Ceremonies …

Anyway, just a theory for now. Comments anyone?

— barb

Subj: What do you think…?
Date: 96-08-02 21:57:54 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

Over on the “Delenn” message board, we are looking for comments on what you think about Mira Furlan the actress.
If you would like to comment on Ms. Furlan, c’mon on over give us your posts….

Subj: The trip to the future
Date: 96-08-02 23:00:23 EDT
From: KJenni5273
Posted on: America Online

During Sheridan’s “trip to the future”,who exactly was their son?
And will we see this “son” in any other episodes?
Thank you
Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-03 00:31:43 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

>I just had a thought, what if the voice that said hello was not Anna’s but his true self. Just a crazy thought.<

So what you are inplying is that Sheridan’s true self has a female voice, and judging by the shadow it casts, wears her hair in a pageboy?

Why is that so shocking? It’s only the 20th century, and we have RuPaul. Nothing to drop a snowglobe over.

<*> Boo

Subj: Re:The trip to the future
Date: 96-08-03 00:36:10 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

> During Sheridan’s “trip to the future”,who exactly was their son?
And will we see this “son” in any other episodes?
Thank you<

All we know is his name will be “David.” No other information has been made available at all, since this was disclosed in the last new episode broadcast. Also, JMS has seled his lips (with the stuff used to adhere links) and refuses to answer any questions about the future child of John and Delenn.

In other words, sit back and wait. That’s when we get to find out, too.
*sigh!*
<*> Boo

Subj: Re:The trip to the future
Date: 96-08-03 01:00:06 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

actually, I think jms lips are triple encrypted.

Subj: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 96-08-03 02:08:19 EDT
From: IcyTundra
Posted on: America Online

>I’m here. It’s just that in this long re-run season, we seem to be covering the same ground over >and over. Perhaps, if we get some *spoilers* from the UK in August, it will revive us a bit.

Go to the Babylon 5 Spoiler Junkies Page for Final Five spoilers.

http://pages.prodigy.com/wildfoto/spoilers.html

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-03 10:42:43 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>It’s only the 20th century, and we have RuPaul. Nothing to drop a snowglobe over.<<

VBG :)

— barb

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-03 11:13:38 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

>>VBG >

what is “VBG” ?

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-08-03 12:05:10 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

I find it hard to imagine the Gray Council as a whole married and with children – every time we see them, they’re on that ship, isolating themselves from the Minbari populace, keeping up their mystique, which spouses with nothing to do and kids running around would rather spoil…
Maybe they do return to Minbar occasionally, and that’s where their families stay, but what a life!

Of course, since they are presumably the Minbari brightest and best, the Gray Council would be expected to reproduce, wouldn’t they? I suppose they *could* be celibate, but I repeat, what a life!

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-08-03 12:09:08 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<< I fully expect that like earth people, Minbari discuss their culture and beliefs in t heir homes, in their ceremonies. So that it is very likely that as a child Delenn knew about Valen, the prophecies, the last war and what would happen in the future. >>

And Delenn is a member of the *religious* caste, so even if Valen’s teachings and prophecies are not generally taught to Minbari children – which I don’t believe, it’s like a Jewish kid not knowing about Moses, or an American kid not hearing about Washington or Lincoln – the religious caste certainly transmits its traditions and beliefs down the generations.

Martha

 

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Past relationshi
Date: 96-08-03 12:13:32 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Sure, she would have heard about all of the prophecies, if not at home, then certainly at Temple. But that doesn’t mean she thought they were about her. If you remember, she was still having doubts right up to the time when she entered the chrysalis. >>

But Delenn *did* decide they were about her at some point, and she was sure enough to go into the chrysalis, regardless of doubts…it’s at least a possiblity that she may have begun to wonder from the time of her childhood vision of Valen, isn’t it?

Subj: B5 Article
Date: 96-08-03 12:17:19 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

The September 1996 issue of “Sci-Fi FLIX”, a magazine I haven’t seen before, has a great B5 spread entitled “A Star Is Born”, calling B5 “the most innovative science fiction on television.

Subj: Re:’Tween Seasons Musings…
Date: 96-08-03 12:20:28 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Thank you, Kimberley.

Martha

Subj: It ain’t that bad
Date: 96-08-03 16:03:53 EDT
From: JJordnRoss
Posted on: America Online

The summer reruns are great for those of us who had busted VCR’s and job-scheduling conflicts last fall and winter…I am happily catching up! I can’t be the only one…
I am now seeing some of the subtleties of John and Delenn’s relationship, as it grew. Since before this I felt like the romance was “Dropped” on me (I knew I missed somthing), I now can see where it came from and why.
It ain’t that bad! Give me B5 rerun any day, vs. some of the first run “must see tee vee.” Ick!
<*> Boo
Anyone interested in ASCII jumpgate patches? email me! <*>

Subj: Delenn’s Emotional Changes
Date: 96-08-03 18:21:30 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

BARRIEJ and I have written an article about the emotional development of Delenn during
the three seasons of Babylon 5. While we would be glad to post it here for you all to read,
we can’t – it is much too long for this message board (over 7500 words, and no, we did not
get paid by the word!) The article is available on the “John and Delenn Web Site”
(http://www.speedlink.com/bbarrett/b5/) where we hope you’ll read it. If for any reason
you don’t have access to a web browser and so can’t access web sites, send either of us an
email message and we’ll be glad to send you a copy if you’d like one. (The introduction,
which tells what we’re trying to do in the article, follows; the article’s title is “Pilgrim Soul:
The Emotional Development of Delenn”.)

Ambassador Delenn is perhaps the most intriguing character among an array of complex
personalities, both human and alien, that we have come to know and love during the three
seasons of episodes of the TV series Babylon 5. While we have seen change and growth,
sometimes for the better, sometimes not, in all of these characters – Londo Mollari, for
instance, began as a buffoon, is now a power-hungry, unscrupulous patriot, and will
become a pitiful, haunted figure longing for death in the B5 future – none has undergone
such a complete transformation – a transformation that is ongoing – as has Delenn. The
product of the collaboration of two highly talented and creative people, JMS and Mira
Furlan, Delenn challenges us to consider what it means to be human, as she deals with her
metamorphosis in body, in mind, and in spirit. We have written this article as an attempt
to document how her emotions in particular have undergone a radical transposition as she
travels the path the universe presents to her on her way to her destiny. We begin with a
discussion of the Minbari attitude concerning emotion, followed by our thoughts about
how Delenn’s words and behavior both before and after her chrysalis experience illuminate
her heart.

 

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-04 13:21:14 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Very Big Grin :)

sorry

— barb

Subj: Re:grey council
Date: 96-08-04 13:22:16 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Yep, being married to somebody that stands in a circle thinking great thoughts all day could be weird! 😉

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Emotional Changes
Date: 96-08-04 13:24:21 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Martha and Barrie —

Great job!

— barb

Subj: Sheridan.Covenrty&The Price
Date: 96-08-04 21:02:27 EDT
From: CHICOPJIM1
Posted on: America Online

A thought on the Coventry decision related to “the terrible price” Allthough a great emotional price Churchill and the War Cabinet paid they suffered no Physical Price. If an attack by the shadows were to fall upon earthforce and Sheridan did nothing to stop this “for the greater good” and people on earth became aware of this(Morden) He would be thought of as a tratior (Remember the feelings on earth about the shadows) Can you think of a higher price to pay for a Man of Sheridans background

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Emotional Change
Date: 96-08-05 17:01:58 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Thanks, Barb

Martha

Subj: Pilgrim Soul
Date: 96-08-05 17:21:58 EDT
From: CajunFalc
Posted on: America Online

To Martha and Barrie:

Excellent piece of work!!!
Catherine

Subj: Re:Pilgrim Soul
Date: 96-08-05 18:47:46 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I wanted to say a few words about “Pilgrim Soul.” For those of you who have been hanging out in this area for the past 4+ months, you know we have discussed many issues about Delenn.

“Pilgrim Soul” is mostly of new material, sometimes the themes are similar, but our evaluation is different. There is very little you will see that either of us have brought to the board before. We tried to open it up to new ideas and some I think are quite exciting! Such as how Delenn evolves and her relationship to Valen.

**None** of it is story ideas, everything is based on what we have seen of Delenn’s behavior in the past 3 years.

barrie

Subj: Re:Pilgrim Soul
Date: 96-08-05 20:54:45 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Thank you, Catherine

Martha

Subj: alien
Date: 96-08-06 04:15:53 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

Attention, attention, this is not a spoiler. Don’t no body get excited.

In an earlier post someone asked how J&D would consumate there relationship. And I thought it would be a cute sceen if we saw Sheridan sitting in his quarters holding a book that says ‘Mimbari Procreation’ . I just have a stubborn image in my head of John going three shades of purple and making faces. In the next sceen we would see Delenn sitting with an uncomfortable Ivanova, reading her own book, ‘The Joys Of Sex’. One can almost see the pristine Minbari slowly close the book, turn to Susan and say, ‘He expects me to do that?”
Of course Susan would probably answer, calmly, ‘Well, …I’ve always liked it.”

For some reason this sceen kept popping into my head, I thought it highly unlikely that JMS would have come up with the same idea I had. I would really like to see other people’s sceens, they are more interesting than reruns

Subj: Pictures
Date: 96-08-06 12:05:45 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

Okay, who paid off who to get so many Delenn/Sheridan pictures destributed all over the place? 😉

Subj: STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-06 14:03:00 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I think at one of the websites, someone posted JMS response to how Delenn knew how to kiss John in STV. I don’t have the full quote, but he started off by saying “instinct” and then jokingly said she was also reading romance novels.

Now, that’s a little more endearing, if he would give her some romance novels.

I suggest we have fun and recommend some novels to JMS for Delenn’s reading pleasure. Remember, they should be in keeping with the likes of this character.

I think she would like Far Pavilions, by M.M. Kaye. It’s richly detailed account of 19th century India, about a beautiful Hindu princess (see looks both Hindu and European) who was of mixed heritage (part Russian) who was in terribly, deeply love (since childhood and later love at first sight as an adult) to a hot-headed british officer (raised Hindu) who went through a Trial By Fire and watched their world collaspe arround them. BTW, the guy collects secrets.
Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-06 17:01:46 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

Ah, yes. I can see it now. Sheridan *finally* kisses Delenn, she draws a deep breath, rips open his shirt, and informs Sheridan, “Now it is time for you to roughly grab my heaving shoulders, I believe.” Of course, this is after she installs the Fabio calendar in her quarters.

Subj: Re:alien
Date: 96-08-06 17:51:50 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<< I just have a stubborn image in my head of John going three shades of purple and making faces.>>

This will likely happen given the Minbari custom of making sure **everything** goes correctly, else they start over. Poor John…;) 😉

<<In the next sceen we would see Delenn sitting with an uncomfortable Ivanova, reading her own book, ‘The Joys Of Sex’. One can almost see the pristine Minbari slowly close the book, turn to Susan and say, ‘He expects me to do that?”
Of course Susan would probably answer, calmly, ‘Well, …I’ve always liked it.”>>

Depends on which part of the book Delenn and Susan are talking about! 😉 😉
BUT…will JMS go on a limb once again vis-a-vis the networks and actually SHOW Delenn and Susan going over this book in an episode?
Who knows?????????

Macker

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-06 22:40:51 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

Barrie — I definitely like your idea about romance novels, and the Far Pavilions is a real heart wrencher. HBO made a mini series of it with Amy Irving as Anjuli and Ben Cross (I think) as Pelham-Martin.

On another tack though, M.Z. Bradley actually does a nice job in the “The World Wreckers” of handling an ‘alien’ and human getting involved — with the added twist of the alien being a hermaphrodite. (Actually, the human is the alien on this planet, and the alien/chieri is on it’s own world.) They actually talk a lot, and acknowledge that what they’re doing is strange for both of them. It’s very nice. (Probably a chick thing, though.)

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-06 22:41:44 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

LOL, It’s a myth.

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-06 22:45:35 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

Actually, I always pictured Delenn using that *classic* novel “Fear of Flying” by Erica Jong as a sex manual…

But I’m a pretty sick ticket, anyway. 😉

FWIW, my “vision” of when and how that First Time happens has changed so much in the short time since I’ve been into the show I’ve just thrown in the towel and am willing to wait and see what JMS does with it. Maybe I’m foolish (*especially* after the romantic knocking around I kept getting from Trek), but I trust him. :)

Kimberley
Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-07 00:52:24 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

>>Actually, I always pictured Delenn using that *classic* novel “Fear of Flying” by Erica Jong as a sex manual…<<

I’ve considered Anne Rice (as A.N. Roquelaure)’s Sleeping Beauty Trilogy myself. 😉

 

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-08 13:40:40 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<FWIW, my “vision” of when and how that First Time happens has changed so much in the short time since I’ve been into the show I’ve just thrown in the towel and am willing to wait and see what JMS does with it. Maybe I’m foolish (*especially* after the romantic knocking around I kept getting from Trek), but I trust him. :)>>

Kimberley, I’m with you. I’m convinced based on recent speculation that this couple is in for rocky times ahead, that the “first time” may not be very soon. I’m the ultimate pessimist, so I’m not spending a lot of time coming up with a “vision” of it and I’m just going to wait.

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-08 17:37:02 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Ah, yes. I can see it now. Sheridan *finally* kisses Delenn, she draws a deep breath, rips open his shirt, and informs Sheridan, “Now it is time for you to roughly grab my heaving shoulders, I believe.”>>
No, first we have to meditate for five minutes on the kiss…

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-08 21:27:41 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

no, just 3 minutes….. ;->

Subj: Sci-Fi Flix interview
Date: 96-08-08 22:03:55 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

There’s a magazine called “Sci-Fi Flix” currently on the stands. It appears to be a special issue put out by the company which does the magazine for the Sci-Fi Channel. There’s a pretty good B-5 artical, although the writer seems to confuse some of the events of seasons 2 & 3, and there’s little in the way of predicitons for #4. Howeer, the artical’s title calls B-5 “the most innovative science fiction on television,” and it’s a positive review, in general.

There are some JMS quotes which add a little information about the future scene in WWE2. Someone else may already have posted this, but JMS says:

“What the two-parter does is tell the end of the story at the middle of the story because you see what has happened 18 years down the road. Sheridan and Delenn are *married.* (emphasis mine) They have a kid.”

He talks about Londo and the Shadows, then says, “But yet it leads with hope in the sense that he lets them go at the end of that part of the story with the promise that they will help to restore his world.”

While this sounds like good news, the author of the artical reminds us that “Any vision of the future…runs an equal chance of being an alternate future. (However, JMS has said on-line that that future *will* happen.) JMS goes on to say, “That’s a question that Sheridan asks himself. In the course of the two-parter as Sheridan is yanked back to his present, Delenn grabs him and, knowing where he’s going, says ‘Listen to me and please understand: Do not go to Z’ha’dum. You must not go to Z’ha’dum.’ And he goes back to the present with this warning still in his head, and the question now becomes: Is this a real future or is this an alternate future? Did this situation with Centaure Prime happen because they listened to her and didn’t go to Z’ha’dum, and if I do go to Z’ha’dum I can prevent this from happening, and this question will loom large in the latter part of the season.”

A Boxleitner quote adds fuel to the “Anna’s return” speculation: “I can say that my wife joins me in the last episode, the cliffhanger episode, so to speak. In the role she plays it worked out just right because *our characters have a history* (my emphasis) and we have our own chemistry going. Joe has this thing about cliffhangers and I certainly was in one.”

I’ve been considering getting into the “Is Delenn a Virgin?” string; I think she is, for several reasons, some of which I’ve already posted. This article makes me more convinced–Boxleitner says, “That relationship is very adolescent in a way. I said to Joe [Stracznski], ‘My God, these lines are like I’m a teenager here. I’m almost 46 years old.’ He said, ‘Yes, but you’re looking at it in human relationship terms.’ Minbari are much more advanced than humans in most ways, but in affairs of the heart there’s a very innocent type of courtship.”

I recommend picking up the mag if you see it. Of course, there are also the inevitable Trek, X-files, etc. articals, but overall, it’s not bad.

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-08 23:03:39 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<Ah, yes. I can see it now. Sheridan *finally* kisses Delenn, she draws a deep breath, rips open his shirt, and informs Sheridan, “Now it is time for you to roughly grab my heaving shoulders, I believe.”>>

<< No, first we have to meditate for five minutes on the kiss… >>

Try five HOURS! 😉 😉

Macker

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-09 10:13:37 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

no, no, no, – 3 hours :)

Subj: please no….
Date: 96-08-09 14:53:12 EDT
From: Necronom4
Posted on: America Online
I know that it is too late, but I really don’t want to she Sheridan and Delenn falling in love. I watch B5 because it has action, great aliens, and cool graphics. I really don’t want to have to end up watching love sprout. But since it has pretty much happened, well, then I will just have to wait for Sheridan’s ” dead” wife to show up and rock the boat.

Subj: Re:please no….
Date: 96-08-09 16:25:51 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

>>then I will just have to wait for Sheridan’s ” dead” wife to show up and rock the boat.<<

Uh, it’s a space station, not a boat. :-)

Subj: Re:please no….
Date: 96-08-09 17:19:48 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<< >>then I will just have to wait for Sheridan’s ” dead” wife to show up and rock the boat.<<

<<Uh, it’s a space station, not a boat. :-)>>

I don’t know, the way things are going it could turn into The Love Boat. Let’s see, Marcus could be Gopher, Ivanova could be Julie . . .

Subj: Powered Toast Man
Date: 96-08-09 18:53:30 EDT
From: WPatr35114
Posted on: America Online

I have been trying to reach you. I live near Lynchburg, Virginia, and I would love to talk to you when you get the opportunity. Please contact me if you get the opportunity. I can be reached at Mary @WPATR35114 or write to me at Route 1 Box 89, Rustburg, Virginia 24588. Thank you for your time. Take care and God Bless.

Sincerely,

Mary Kay Patrick

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-09 19:08:40 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<no, no, no, – 3 hours :)>>

You’re right…sigh…

Macker

Subj: Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-09 21:46:31 EDT
From: BoxBoots
Posted on: America Online

Of course John will keep an interest in Delenn. An upstanding honest, peace loving man as John Sheridan needs a love interest to add to this distinction. But, don’t you think it’s odd that she always knows all the answers to everything? There is something weird about her. I firmly believe she will turn on him after he falls for her completely, and supposedly, they have a son (a bonehead?). She is not to be trusted. Bringing Melissa in as his first wife will throw a greater shadow on Delenn–no comparison in looks. Melissa looks at least ten yrs. younger unless she’s made up to look like a hag, and I don’t quite know how they’d accomplish that without three or four hours in the makeup room. I hope you read this JMS.
A Box fan forever, Boots Breza, Solon, IA 52333

Subj: Re:Delenn’s not sleeping
Date: 96-08-09 21:51:53 EDT
From: BoxBoots
Posted on: America Online

I think the Capt. usually makes love in a bed.

Subj: Re:Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-10 00:52:35 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<<Melissa looks at least ten yrs. younger unless she’s made up to look like a hag>>
According to JMS, Delenn is supposed to be in her late forties or early fifties, in earth years. Since Minbari live longer and age more slowly than humans, this would make her the equivalent of a twenty-five to thirty year old human. Sheridan is supposed to be somewhere in his ealy forties, making Delenn chronologically older than him but physiologically and psychologically younger – this is so comfusing. I’m not exactly sure how old Mira Furlan, the actress who plays Delenn, is, but I would guess she’s thirty-something. I think she’s good-looking enough, but I’m female and prefer looking at guys, so I guess I guess I’m not much of a judge.
JMS has also said that Delenn is definutely hiding something from Sheridan, specifically about the shadow’s motives. However, I don’t think this necessarily means she is just using him. I think she feels secrecy is necessary for the good of the cause. Re-watch the scene in I&E where they are talking in the war room (this is the scene JMS was talking about, by the way) SHe looks like she very much wants to say something, but doesn’t. I think she really does care about him, but she puts the cause above everyone and everything, including him and including herself.

Subj: Re:Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-10 08:38:27 EDT
From: CajunFalc
Posted on: America Online

<< I firmly believe she will turn on him after he falls for her completely, and supposedly, they have a son (a bonehead?). She is not to be trusted.>>

-Well, it certainly looked like she “turned on him” in that Centauri prison cell in 2277…..
-And, it certainly appears that he has absolutely no trust in her at all, either….
Catherine

Subj: Jackie<*>Boo AWOL!!!
Date: 96-08-10 14:01:01 EDT
From: SongSilver
Posted on: America Online

Hi all…for those trying to reach me, I have had massive problems with my email address, so I am borrowing this one from a friend. It’s really me… :)
I will still be going to VF Con, I still have <*>< patches, I still have a trek fanzine. Only the name has been changed…
…if you know anyone that has been looking for me, tell them where I am. thanks!
Jackie<*> Boo
was jjordnross now SONGSILVER@AOL.COM ATTN JACKIE

Subj: Lurkers Guide
Date: 96-08-10 14:09:36 EDT
From: SchnellJan
Posted on: America Online

There is an interesting update in the newest episode listed in the Lurkers Guide (sorry I can’t remember the title). JMS says that a post on Compuserve helped him clear up the fuzziness of the Sheridan/Delenn relationship. This means that the relationship clearly continues after this seasons cliffhanger and that Sheridan obviously survives his trip to Z’ha’dum (if he even makes a trip at all).

Janice

Subj: Re:Lurkers Guide
Date: 96-08-10 17:19:15 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

of course it does!

JMS also said that the future we saw was the true one and that they are married in that era. My guess is that they’ll be married in year four. because of this 5 year arc thing and also because we keep getting this “dawn of the third age of mankind” business. also, JMS said he wasn’t telling how old david was so things could proceed naturally, which implies to me he plans to make it happen “naturally” within the 5 year arc. who else gets to benefit from “naturally”??

this dawn of an age (remember, B5 is located between the Tigris and the Eurphrates, check your B5 enclyclopedia) and part of the dawn is the Minbari /Human soul business and DAVID! Sooo, of course, they stay together.

 

Subj: Re:please no….
Date: 96-08-10 17:22:26 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Unfortunately, you are probably in the minority especially in this topic area where we literally drool over our computers about J&D’s romance and try to think of all sorts of ways to get JMS off his horse and back into thinking romance and all that stuff.
Subj: Re:Powered Toast Man
Date: 96-08-10 17:23:41 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

PTM!

I have wondered what happened to him for a long time. He used to hang out in the boards last year until he got the luck of the Irish and a job at B5!

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-10 17:41:27 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Delenn shouldn’t neglect the classics in her education in human romance novels. Two of
the best, which depict touching love stories that succeed against great odds, along with
strong, independent heroines, are Jane Austen’s “Pride and Prejudice” and Charlotte
Bronte’s “Jane Eyre”. “Jane Eyre” in particular should also provide handy tips for dealing
with an inconvenient, homicidal first wife who has a predilection for popping into
bedrooms unannounced in the middle of the night!

Subj: Re:Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-10 19:51:28 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

No doubt about it — Delenn is as crazy/nuts in love with John as he is with her — it’s in every season 3 (and half the season 2) conversations the two of ’em have.

BoxBoots, you got it wrong this time, my friend. Of course I believe in romantic endings and heros riding off into the sunset happily ever after, too 😉

But I do believe there is reciprocal love between J and D.

— barb

Subj: Re:Lurkers Guide
Date: 96-08-10 19:54:15 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>this dawn of an age (remember, B5 is located between the Tigris and the Eurphrates, check your B5 enclyclopedia) and part of the dawn is the Minbari /Human soul business and DAVID! Sooo, of course, they stay together. <<

ooh, Barrie, I didn’t know about the Tigris/Euphrates dawn of civilization connection. Very cool.

— barb

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-10 19:56:08 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>”Jane Eyre” in particular should also provide handy tips for dealing with an inconvenient, homicidal first wife who has a predilection for popping into
bedrooms unannounced in the middle of the night!<<

ROTFL, Martha :)

— barb

Subj: Re: Delenn’s Secret
Date: 96-08-11 01:52:29 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

Delenn’s secret is that she knows what the shadows want. The problem is, OTHER PEOPLE don’t like stuff being kept from them!

Subj: Re:Lurkers Guide
Date: 96-08-11 07:56:40 EDT
From: CajunFalc
Posted on: America Online

>>There is an interesting update in the newest episode listed in the Lurkers Guide (sorry I can’t remember the title). JMS says that a post on Compuserve helped him clear up the fuzziness of the Sheridan/Delenn relationship. This means that the relationship clearly continues after this seasons cliffhanger and that Sheridan obviously survives his trip to Z’ha’dum (if he even makes a trip at all).<<

Mild spoiler alert for Season 4…..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
I started scouring the Lurkers Guide to find this episode, but couldn’t find it in the Season 3 guides, so I started looking at Season 4, and VOILA!!!! The title of the episode is “The Summoning”, and it’s *supposed* to air November 18, which would make it probably the 3rd episode in Season 4. After reading JMS’ response, I wasn’t sure what post he was responding to, so I clicked on the “CompuServe Message” link, and found that he was responding to a piece Brent Barrett (of the John & Delenn Home Page) had written about “Responsibility and Forgiveness”. Brent makes references to the upcoming episode “Passing through Gethsemane” in his analysis.

So, my guess is that John must make the decision to forgive Delenn for her “secrets”, and I think we all know what decision he’ll make. :-)

Catherine
Subj: Re:Which episode?
Date: 96-08-11 07:59:05 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

It was “confessions and lamentations” and it dealt with the Markab plague (Great bit of acting at the end!)

Subj: Re:Someones at the door….
Date: 96-08-11 08:03:39 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

JMs has said he doesn’t like to have kids on B5 (too cute or something). He’s killed off 2 of them. I hope there’s no kid at the door with Anna.

Subj: Re:Anna/John/Delenn
Date: 96-08-11 08:33:57 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

If I remember correctly, Anna has been gone or 2 or three years. Unless pregnancies lengthen in space, Anna cannot be pregnant with John’s baby. But how about Morden’s????
Subj: Re:Her Dressmaker
Date: 96-08-11 08:40:06 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

I don’t think she’ll turn on him. She is “the one who is”and he’s “the one who will be” They come as a unit. However, Delenn knows something big she’s not telling him (What the Shadows want?) and he’s going to be some upset when he finds out!

Subj: Re:Mira
Date: 96-08-11 08:43:59 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

Just finished that chapter–noting paralells all the way thru. Life truly imitates art! The rest of the book seems good too.

Subj: Re:Someones at the door
Date: 96-08-12 16:00:34 EDT
From: Akira34613
Posted on: America Online

Luna457954-what did you mean by there were kids on B5. I hjave been watching since 1rst season and dont remember. please explain.

Subj: Re:Someones at the door
Date: 96-08-12 18:26:44 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online
<<JMs has said he doesn’t like to have kids on B5 (too cute or something). He’s killed off 2 of them. I hope there’s no kid at the door with Anna.>>

<<Luna457954-what did you mean by there were kids on B5. I hjave been watching since 1rst season and dont remember. please explain. >>

I’m not sure whether this is what Luna45794 was talking about, but JMS killed (or, rather, wrote in the infantacide of) an alien child in the first season ep. “Believers.” The only other child I recall seeing in the series is the little Markab girl in “Confessions and Lamentations,” with whom Delenn seemed to form an immediate bond, and who, of course, met the same fate as the rest of her species.

Anyone else recall any other children? I’ve always wondered why we didn’t at least see an occasional kid in the background–as big as the place is, seems some of the workers or travelers would have families!

Subj: Re:Sinclair, how he knew
Date: 96-08-12 19:41:39 EDT
From: Wookie 58
Posted on: America Online

As he passed through the rift in the space-time contiunum, I believe that it can happen only if Sheridan does not go to ZA-HA=Doom
Subj: Major headache
Date: 96-08-12 21:03:52 EDT
From: Striker08
Posted on: America Online

I was searching the web and found a quote by JMS about the next 5 eps, it’s given me quite a headache, here’s some spoiler space just in case….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Someone dies. Someone nearly dies. Someone is reborn. Lots of things blow up. Something really big blows up. Hearts are broken. Love is found, possibly too late. And there are equal measures of hope and great despair.”
JMS
Just some food for thought.
Striker

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-13 00:05:19 EDT
From: LLOOFF
Posted on: America Online

With regard to the dropped snowglobe: just what is that all about anyway? I’ve tried to glean some info from the various postings, but nothing was forthcoming. Any ideas?? (P.S. I’m new to this board. I’ve been sucked into Bab5, and now I can’t live without it. When does the new season start anyway?)

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-13 08:06:59 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<With regard to the dropped snowglobe: just what is that all about anyway? I’ve tried to glean some info from the various postings, but nothing was forthcoming. Any ideas?? (P.S. I’m new to this board. I’ve been sucked into Bab5, and now I can’t live without it. When does the new season start anyway?)>>

The “new season” starts at the end of September. The specific date depends on what market you’re in and what day your station airs the show. As far as the snowglobe thing goes, we only have speculation, but the most popular theory is that Delenn is watching John sleep as part of a Minbari courtship ritual and is interrupted by the return of John’s supposedly dead wife. We’re not totally sure which episode this will happen in but my bet is on Shadow Dancing, the fourth new episode.

Subj: Re:Anna/John/Delenn
Date: 96-08-13 13:21:31 EDT
From: Highway927
Posted on: America Online

>>
If I remember correctly, Anna has been gone or 2 or three years. Unless pregnancies lengthen in space, Anna cannot be pregnant with John’s baby. But how about Morden’s????>>
Now there is a thought.

Subj: snowglobe
Date: 96-08-13 13:57:30 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

If you will read back a couple of months to june you will find here, in this topic, EXCELLENT discussions on this dern snowglobe, lead by that brilliant psychologist, ShePsych and addendumm by classicists Mythopile and It’s a Myth and others.

they really thrashed through it with gusto and very very good thinkng.

as a matter of fact, you should check the discussions between april and june, that’s when we were really at it. it’s been harder to generate much enthusiasm lately becuase we have only reruns, summer heat and dolldrums. but you will find those discussions quite quite exceptional, if I may say so myself!
Subj: Re:Hello???
Date: 96-08-13 14:10:29 EDT
From: Akira34613
Posted on: America Online

Diane K De: Do you mean the fourth new episode next season, or at end of third season??

Subj: Delenn/John’s Relationship
Date: 96-08-13 17:24:12 EDT
From: Magnustar
Posted on: America Online

I agree that the relationship between Sheridan and Delenn is ground breaking for TV. The quality of friendship, passion along with compassion creates an egalitarian loving relationship that is awe inspiring. I hope it continues to be so and doesn’t turn into a milk sop romance. It is John’s ability to have compassion for all beings that cements his relationship with Delenn. For Delenn the compassionate love for all beings would supersede any personal feelings of love.

In the episode Comes the Inquisition, Delenn not only offers her life for John’s, she also protects Lennier by sending him away. She had to face her deepest motivations and intentions-her ego, i.e. who am I–the Ranger and leader of the war against darkness? Mimbari? Heroine? This reminds me of the testing of Buddha (three tremptations) and Christ (three temptations) in the Desert for 40 days. Did she secretly harbor in her heart a need to be recognized like Valen, a great leader that all Minbari honor. When she stepped down from leadership in the grey council was she motivated by a greater more powerful role? When Dalenn offered her life in exchange for Sheridan’s, it was as act of love for any and all life. She also released any attachment to being the only leader capable to lead the war. For Delenn the intention of each action from the tiniest to the greatest must be an act of love honoring all life.

John’s presence during the last part of the trial was necessary. He had to confront the depth of his feelings for Delenn. Delenn already understands how she is connected to him. Everyone talks about Delenn’s and even Kosh’s secrecy but tremendous patience is required to allow an individual to unfold in their own way with as little interference as possible. That is a task for any great soul.

Furthermore, in the ep In The Garden of Gethsamane, Delenn shares a conversation with a monk about the darkest hours before Christ is arrested and crucified. Staying and waiting knowing the pain and suffering ahead. But the need for the atonement (At-one-ment) of all beings being more important than self. So Christ stays. At some point in the future will she face a similar situation where she will want “this cup be passed from her?” At the same time John’s Gethsamane might require him “to be able to forgive” no matter how atrocious the act. And if his wife, Anna shows up as a puppet of the shadows and betrays him, that would require forgiveness.

So, however the relationship develops in the future, no person could ever break that spiritual connection between Delenn and John. Test it yes.

Delenn’s character is the most positive, emotionally mature, and powerful female role in pop TV culture ever. When the chips are down in any conflict on Babylon 5, Delenn is the person I would want in my corner. I am glad she has a unique look and is not the beautiful plastic face with perfect features. It is the inner strength and beauty that is the essential nature of her character. The development of her character and role has fascinated me from the first. The development of a balanced loving relationship with Sheridan is equally a fascinating development.
Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-13 18:41:08 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<From: LLOOFF

(P.S. I’m new to this board. I’ve been sucked into Bab5, and now I can’t live without it. >>

Welcome to the best board on AOL! You’re not alone in being “sucked in” to B-5! I’ve been a Star Trek fan for the entire time it’s existed, and especially liked DS9 (Let’s pretend Voyager is nonexistant). I’ve watched B5 intermittently since the beginning, but was under-whelmed by the first season. Duting the second season, my interest began to pick up, largely due to the addition of Sheridan’s character, and the early hints of a relationship between him & Delenn. Of course, the plot really began to pick up speed, too. Somewhere along the line, about half-way through season two, I realized that B5 was the program I most anticipated, and my two favorites began to exchange places. This season, it’s been no contest! The characterizations (it’s obvious JMS has a background in psychology); the way a seemingly unimportant line can turn out to have been prophetic; the attention to detail, such as discussing the real issues of station funding, unions, mail, etc; and especially the novel (in both senses of the word) format of the story have made it the only “must see tv” in my house. My whole family’s addicted–and it *is* an addiction–as you may have gathered surfing the board, many of us are experiencing severe withdrawal symptoms now!

If you’re relatively new to the show, you need to find out what’s happened in the past to fully appreciate the way the story has unfolded–not that it isn’t fascinating and exciting even if you haven’t seen every episode. In case you don’t already know, AOL has brief synopses of most of the episodes, but the best source of information is the” Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5″ at http://www.hyperion.com/lurk/lurker.html. Check it out, if you haven’t already. It has detailed synopses of every episode that’s aired, plus excellent analysis and many thought-provoking questions. It also reprints many of JMS’s own comments on various on-line forums.

Keep watching–new episodes will show up eventually (I keep telling myself).

Subj: Re:snowglobe
Date: 96-08-13 18:44:37 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

Barrie, thanks for the ego-stroking. I haven’t said anything “brilliant” lately (if ever), but I’m anxiously anticipating having new episodes to analyze. Can’t wait to start another controversial discussion!
PJC

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-13 21:23:50 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<As far as the snowglobe thing goes, we only have speculation, but the most popular theory is that Delenn is watching John sleep as part of a Minbari courtship ritual and is interrupted by the return of John’s supposedly dead wife.>>

Yeah! I mean, now she has to start watching ALL OVER!

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-13 21:59:44 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>I’ve been sucked into Bab5, and now I can’t live without it. <<

Join the crowd. Do you suppose somebody will start a 12-step program after the 5 years is over :) ?

— barb

Subj: Re:Hello???
Date: 96-08-13 22:00:46 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

If it’s not November, it must be season 3

(only in tv land!)

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn/John’s Relationship
Date: 96-08-13 22:03:24 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Magnustar,

That is one of the most eloquent, well-spoken, accurate summaries of Delenn and Delenn and John I have read.

Right on the money. Great thinking (and feeling)

— barb

Subj: Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-13 22:07:42 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Ok guys, i pulled this off the Delenn board and wanted to talk about it.

>>While speaking at last year’s Marcon, Mira mentioned that her father was still living about 40 miles outside Zagreb — at that time far enough away from the conflict. She was concerned because he didn’t have a phone and that she could not keep in touch with him as she would have liked. Does anyone know his status? It must be hard for her to be so far away from her father…and her former country, Yugoslavia. Thanks for the info!>>

and someone else added

<<In the brief autobiography that she wrote a just a few months ago for the new-member packet for her fan club, she described her father in much the same way that you remember. It sounds like he’s still doing the same thing.

I have been thinking about this all day long. I never grew up during a war or felt cut off from family or friends because of a war (other things yes), but many, many people have and it’s painful. Someone once told me that through any 6 people we know, we know everyone in the world.

Now, IMHO, we’re a very ingenious people, so why can’t we find a way to help her reach her dad **if she needs to?** some of you are members of her fan club, what’s the scoop?

wouldn’t that be a nice gift? first of all, we have to know, does she *still* have a real problem reaching him, then where is he (what his name is helps) and then how to get a hold of him (short-wave, internet, phones).

I don’t have a lot of resources, but I’m great on ideas and if anyone else out there who is really serious about this wanted to check this out, e-mail me!

Subj: Re:Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-14 00:45:21 EDT
From: Badinov
Posted on: America Online

>> But, don’t you think it’s odd that she always knows all the answers to everything? <<

And this is different than any other human female??

:-)
Badinov

Subj: Re:Sheridan/Delenn
Date: 96-08-14 00:57:26 EDT
From: Badinov
Posted on: America Online

>>Now, IMHO, we’re a very ingenious people, so why can’t we find a way to help her reach her dad **if she needs to?** some of you are members of her fan club, what’s the scoop?

wouldn’t that be a nice gift? first of all, we have to know, does she *still* have a real problem reaching him, then where is he (what his name is helps) and then how to get a hold of him (short-wave, internet, phones).

I don’t have a lot of resources, but I’m great on ideas and if anyone else out there who is really serious about this wanted to check this out, e-mail me! <<

For a while there was a Bosnia board somewhere here on AOL…I’m sure that there were a number of Croats posting to it.

From my recollection of last year’s “Operation Storm” offensive, the area 40mi east of Zagreb was not touched by the war’s final thrust. So Mr. Furlan should be OK. There should be an effort being made by the Croat Govt to rebuild infrastructure (phones, roads) in that area.

Does anyone have the town name?

Badinov

Subj: Re:Hello???
Date: 96-08-14 08:48:32 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

It depends on how you define season. According to the TV industry(and advertising industry in which I work), September is the “new TV season”. According to the producers of B5, the first 5 episodes we’ll see were intended for Season 3 and Season 4 will begin in November. Sorry for the confusion, everyone.

Subj: Re:Hello???
Date: 96-08-14 10:25:53 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

Diane, if I may jump in…the final 5 episodes of season 3 will air the first week of Oct (maybe as early as Sept. 30 in some markets?? Not sure about that.). Season 4 begins in Nov. I think if I had to wait an additional month for new episodes to air, I would implode from the frustration of waiting so cotton pickin’ LONG..no thanks to WB…

Subj: Re:Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-14 16:58:42 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

Badinov — i think that is a wonderful idea. I had a thought though, that if people are still angry at Mira, it might be a bad idea to draw attention to her family or her success her. I hate to be a wet blanket. Kind of an eerie parallel to David Sheridan and John, don’t you think?

But — we may be able to find out something somehow that would help — what do you think we should do?

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-14 18:12:02 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<Join the crowd. Do you suppose somebody will start a 12-step program after the 5 years is over :) ?>>

Or perhaps it should be only 3 steps?

Macker

Subj: Re:Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-14 18:21:22 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<Badinov — i think that is a wonderful idea. I had a thought though, that if people are still angry at Mira, it might be a bad idea to draw attention to her family or her success her. I hate to be a wet blanket. Kind of an eerie parallel to David Sheridan and John, don’t you think?

But — we may be able to find out something somehow that would help — what do you think we should do?>>

First of all, I think we should ask Mira: 1) are you still having trouble getting in touch with your father, 2) would you like US to try and help you do that via whatever means we have necessary (i.e. the INTERNET), and 3) bearing in mind just what is going on over in the post-civil-war former Yugoslavia (I think someone mentioned he lives in what is now Croatia), do you give us permission to try?

I have a draft letter. E-mail me if you want to read it and/or send it to her.

Macker

Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-14 20:26:59 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

>>Or perhaps it should be only 3 steps?<<

Oh, Macker, of course you are correct. Silly me 😉

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn’s not sleeping
Date: 96-08-14 21:17:07 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<I think the Capt. usually makes love in a bed.>>

Poor, boring Capt.

Subj: Re:Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-14 21:28:01 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

BarrieJ:

I just e-mailed you with some ways I might be able to help, but I’m not sure my e-mail’s working. Please let me know.

Subj: Re:last 5 eps
Date: 96-08-14 22:57:32 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

LLarson:

According to Lurker’s Guide (and other places, I can’t seem to remember where), the last five eps of season 3 are scheduled for beginning of Sept. Then reruns through Oct. Then season 4 in Nov…..Unless, of course, you’re in the U.K., where you’re seeing the whole season as one (“Walkabout” this week, lucky devils!).

Sherry

Subj: Re:Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-15 01:10:21 EDT
From: SongSilver
Posted on: America Online

>Now, IMHO, we’re a very ingenious people, so why can’t we find a way to help her reach her dad **if she needs to?** some of you are members of her fan club, what’s the scoop?

wouldn’t that be a nice gift? first of all, we have to know, does she *still* have a real problem reaching him, then where is he (what his name is helps) and then how to get a hold of him (short-wave, internet, phones).

I don’t have a lot of resources, but I’m great on ideas and if anyone else out there who is really serious about this wanted to check this out, e-mail me! <

Before you all jump on this project, don’t you think you ought to check with Ms. Furlan to see if she is truely out of contact with him, now that the war is supposedly over (read: stopped by US forces)? Otherwise, you could be invading her and her father’s privacy on a huge scale. Ms. Furlan does have contacts in the former Yugoslavia, and she does have a pc and she does use it. I think she can communicate with her father if she wants to, so let’s not make any assumptions.

I know you are doing this out of the truest, kindest feeling of your hearts (and she would love you for it) but you should ask first. It is the polite thing to do, and she would appreciate the courtesy.

Jackie<*>
Subj: Re:HELLO???
Date: 96-08-15 19:28:44 EDT
From: MARNVOTE 1
Posted on: America Online

<< Do you suppose somebody will start a 12-step program after the 5 years is over :) ?>>

This may be a necessary spin off JMS never gave a thought too. :) Imagine masses of people rioting over the demise of B5

Subj: Re:last 5 eps
Date: 96-08-15 19:43:39 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

Sherzipp, sorry, however I’m pretty certain of what I speak. In fact, I asked JMS personally at a convention when the final five eps will be shown. “October.” Earlier in the summer or late spring, the thinking seemed to indicate that the eps would be shown in Sept. but as time went on, the more it pointed to October. Waitings is hard to do….

Subj: Mira’s father
Date: 96-08-16 11:48:10 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I did get your message, and e-mailed you back right away… if you didn’t get that, let me know! EQRIS is the one who knows all and can direct us on this.
Subj: Re:Bab 5
Date: 96-08-16 12:59:08 EDT
From: Highway927
Posted on: America Online

I can see it now. The President will call JMS to his office and order him to stop the roiting by producing yet another series.

Subj: Re:Bab 5
Date: 96-08-17 11:15:18 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Yep. JMS will try to explain, “But it was a 5-year story arc and I’ve told it.” The pres. will say, “I’m sorry, Joe, but public unrest is getting out of hand. People didn’t find out about B5 until Seasons 3 and 4 — they want more.”

Outside, the two will hear the voices of the crowd, starting in a soft chant and growing…. “say it ain’t so, joe…say it ain’t so…”

At which point, JMS will say, “Well, if it’s for the good of earth, how can I refuse? Who’d have thought?”

Who indeed 😉

— barb

Subj: Re:last 5 eps
Date: 96-08-17 22:48:36 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

LLarson:

Oops! I checked Lurker’s again a few days ago and it lists new eps on Sept. 30. Unfortunately, you’re right.

Sherry

Subj: Info on Mira’s Dad
Date: 96-08-18 21:48:10 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

Hello everyone! For those of you who have no idea who I am, my name is Cristina, and I am the president of Mira Furlan’s sanctioned fan club. I have been watching the posts about Mira’s father with quite a bit of interest, and I recently passed those messages on to her. She asked me to pass the following on to all of you…..

Please do not post false information or messages containing unverified information about Mira Furlan. There is no truth in the information regarding her loss of contact with her father. Also, the email address posted on America Online is now invalid, and should no longer be used.

She does appreciate the fact, however, that so many of you were willing to offer her your assistance. She has said it before, and she will say it again, the sci-fi fans are truly wonderful people!

So, that’s about it! Thanks again everyone, for caring!
BTW, my friend and MFFC member Inga Harwood, has sent me a summary of “Walkabout”…send me a message if you want spoilers!

Cristina
<*>

Subj: Re:STV& romance novels
Date: 96-08-19 00:23:05 EDT
From: Ktceekay
Posted on: America Online

It’s great someone else has read the “Far Pavilions” and thinks this is one of the best love stories to have ever been written. M.M. Kaye’s character studies of both Ashton and Anjuli were wonderful. These characters were both perfect and imperfect. They were 3-dimensional people. Also, all of the supporting characters were of the same quality. That’s what has attracted me to B5 from the beginning was the people and the characters they created from the story lines they were given. As a middle age all-most-grown-up person, I can relate to the characters and the situations they find themselves in when they interact with each other. I read somewhere that B5 is considered a sci-fi series for grown-ups. I would agree. So please JMS, continue to develop the emotional plot lines with Delenn and John and for that matter, everyone else. It is our emotional growth that keeps all of us going day-to-day. Thanks for reading this.

Subj: Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-19 00:48:00 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

JMS has said that he does not do kids on b5 because they are “too cute” and that in the course of the series two kids have died and one went away. The two who died were the boy in “believers” and the girl in “confessions and Lamentations. I don’t know who went away, guess I haven’t seen that ep yet.

Subj: guests
Date: 96-08-19 01:37:37 EDT
From: RINKLFREE
Posted on: America Online

I have found a way to beat this stupid lull in the WB schedule. Many of us are now aware of a little show called The Rosie O’Donnell Show. On her Web page (keyword ROSIE) she has a message board for guests we would like to see on her show. Here’s my idea: we flood the thing with requests for the top B5 charecters, and for Melissa Gilbert. MAYBE WE CAN GET THEM TO SPILL SOMETHING!! Anybody like?
Tricia

Subj: Re:guests
Date: 96-08-19 11:09:00 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

Tricia –
Good idea!
I you are looking for spoilers, I suggest you check out ‘the Babylon 5 Spoiler Junkies Page” at
http://pages.prodigy.com/wildfoto/spoilers.html
Lots of neat stuff can be found here. There are also links to several neat S&D pages.

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-19 23:24:31 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

<<JMS has said that he does not do kids on b5 because they are “too cute” and that in the course of the series two kids have died and one went away. The two who died were the boy in “believers” and the girl in “confessions and Lamentations. I don’t know who went away, guess I haven’t seen that ep yet.>>

David, perhaps?

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-20 10:44:53 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

The one ep that the kid “went away”..can’t remember the title but it was a first season episode. A telepathic teenage girl, who hadn’t been discovered by the Psi-Corp, must decide where to go: to the Psi-Corp; or an alien world where she can be “free”. I don’t remember where she ended up going.

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-20 12:29:44 EDT
From: Ltn Laura
Posted on: America Online

I think she wound up going to Minbari after talking to Delenn. I’m not sure — that was shortly before I became obsessed with Bab5. :)

Laura

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-20 13:43:26 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

This discussion of kids on B5 caused a very strange image to flash through my mind. Kosh opens his encounter suit to reveal———

Barney!

(And you thought the Shadows were a nightmare!)

Subj: Re time travel
Date: 96-08-20 15:29:15 EDT
From: A12b
Posted on: America Online

where is the plot going to go now, we know they won so now what…………..help me my mind is going,going…………………….most would say gone

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-20 19:08:20 EDT
From: LynnRAllen
Posted on: America Online

<<This discussion of kids on B5 caused a very strange image to flash through my mind. Kosh opens his encounter suit to reveal———

Barney!

(And you thought the Shadows were a nightmare!)>>

Arrggghhh!! Thank goodness my kids are beyond the Barney stage. It was a close call.

Subj: Reruns
Date: 96-08-20 19:19:09 EDT
From: ShyWoman2
Posted on: America Online

I have found a couple of page on the internet that I find help me cope with B5 withdrawl.
The Babylon 5 Addiction Page which has some S & D links:
http://www.verinet.com/~analise/b5/b5.html

and

The Babylon 5 Archive of Creative Works which is full of originial fan fiction.
http://www.dal.net/b5/

Let me know what you think.

Shannon :-)

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-20 20:13:39 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

The one who went away was the young telepath who went to Minbar to train rather than back to earth and the Psicorps.

Sherry

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-21 08:51:41 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online
<<JMS has said that he does not do kids on b5 because they are “too cute” and that in the course of the series two kids have died and one went away. The two who died were the boy in “believers” and the girl in “confessions and Lamentations. I don’t know who went away, guess I haven’t seen that ep yet.>>

<<David, perhaps?>>

I’m the board’s resident pessimist. I don’t expect to see David for a very long time, if at all.

Subj: Re:Re time travel
Date: 96-08-21 08:53:38 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<where is the plot going to go now, we know they won so now what…………..help me my mind is going,going…………………….most would say gone>>

The show is supposedly not really about the war, but about the “third age of mankind”, so where the show is going after we win is supposedly going to explain what that means. Also, I’m a bit curious about how we win, aren’t you.

Subj: Re:Reruns
Date: 96-08-21 17:07:26 EDT
From: CajunFalc
Posted on: America Online

I’ve tried both of the sites you mentioned, and both are just *mah-velous*!

Catherine

Subj: Re:Comicon–The Kiss
Date: 96-08-21 20:08:16 EDT
From: JLewis8676
Posted on: America Online

I’m new to this and wasn’t sure which board to post this but the subject of being strung along kept coming up. My point is I’m PISSED. I’m being rerunned to death. At the rate they are going they are going we won’t see the fifth season( if they have one)untill sometime near the end of the decade.I might be wrong but I think we only saw 17 new episodes last season. I’m feeling short changed. B5 is my favorite sci fi show. I can see stretching a story line out for effect but 3 months. I’m surprised ther isn’t a small rumbling in the air.
Jlewis8676

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-21 20:23:26 EDT
From: VSeidel220
Posted on: America Online

“The one ep that the kid “went away”..can’t remember the title but it was a first season episode. A telepathic teenage girl, who hadn’t been discovered by the Psi-Corp, must decide where to go: to the Psi-Corp; or an alien world where she can be “free”. I don’t remember where she ended up going. ”

She went to Minbar with the aid of Delenn.

Victoria Seidel

Subj: Re:Comicon–The Kiss
Date: 96-08-23 14:43:13 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

Yes, you did only see 17 epsiodes; the last five of season three are coming in October. THis is Warner Brother’s fault, but right now we’re all being very nice to WB, because they just renewed the show for its fourth season.
-Lynne

Subj: Re:Comicon–The Kiss
Date: 96-08-24 13:08:48 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

and there was a horrible rumbling a roar and a electronic overload… didn’t you see the blackout when everyone went on line to complain?

the fuss! I was ready to move to britain! Hey charlie and di, move over, the US B5 fans are coming! where’s the fish and chips?

Subj: Mira at Valley Forge!
Date: 96-08-25 21:45:47 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

She was great! What else can I say?
If all of you Delenn fans want something to do, write a letter to Creation thanking them for having her as a guest, and then request they hire her again! The people at Creation need to know how much support Mira has out here in B5 fan-land!
Creation
530 Riverdale Dr
Glendale, CA 91204

Cristina
<*>

Subj: Re:Mira at Valley Forge!
Date: 96-08-26 01:35:11 EDT
From: DRebel6024
Posted on: America Online

I couldn’t agree more, EQRIS. I went, . . I saw people,. . . .I bought a lot of “stuff”, . . .I got autographs, . . .it was GREAT! (And you’d never guess it was my first convention, huh?) I’m writing the letter after posting this.
Subj: Help
Date: 96-08-26 02:27:27 EDT
From: Time cpsl
Posted on: America Online

How can I get some autographed pictures of the ?

Subj: Hi, again
Date: 96-08-26 09:52:02 EDT
From: CAMButcher
Posted on: America Online

Hi, I’m back! Between summer activities, and my 2 year old giving up naptime, I have been offline. Can’t wait to rejoin the conversation after reading logs of the board since 7/19!

Carol

Subj: Re:Hi, again
Date: 96-08-26 16:24:53 EDT
From: A12b
Posted on: America Online

you have to give me some hint to plot after time travel

Subj: Re:Help
Date: 96-08-28 22:47:45 EDT
From: SongSilver
Posted on: America Online

Hi,
Buy a photo, send it to the studio, ask for an autograph, wait a very very long time, since actors has little time for breathing, sleep and food, let alone fan mail. Be sure to enclose a SASE with enough postage for return.

OR

Support your fine actors at their conventions, and get their autograph there! this is the best way!
Subj: Leaving…goodbye!I
Date: 96-08-28 22:48:23 EDT
From: SongSilver
Posted on: America Online

I am sad to say I am leaving AOL. I will have email and mailing list acess only as of today at
<jackieross@juno.com>
If you have trouble reaching me, please send my friend Cheri a note at <songsilver> and she’ll let me know.

Please stay in touch! I need my email!
Best wishes, Jackie<*> Boo

Subj: Fan Fiction
Date: 96-08-28 23:37:25 EDT
From: DrgnPrncs
Posted on: America Online

Just thought some of you here might enjoy some excellent John and Delenn fan fiction. If you haven’t visited Analise Hairabedian’s “Babylon 5 Addiction Page”, then you’re missing something great! It can be found at:
www.verinet.com/~analise/b5/b5.html
Be sure to read the two stories by Analise herself- my personal favorite was “Wasted Time”. This is not ordinary fanfict, she’s really a *terrific* writer!

Subj: no autograph here!
Date: 96-08-29 04:57:04 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Get an autograph? Not me! after 2 years of watching her act, I have learned to appreciate acting like never before!! rather than an autograph, I would love to sit down and have a marvelous discussion with her on the value of acting and theater to explore the human spirit, share that humanity with the world, to heal, to grow and to learn about oneself and the world. And of course the perfectionist tendency of the artist, that whatever one does there is always room for improvement, new twists and evolutions and their incredible work ethic! now that would be bliss! with her deep perceptions of human nature honed after years of acting and my psychology/anthropology/folklore background, I think that would be an enjoyable conversation. She’s got a mind and spirit, nobility and purpose and dedication to a craft that brings such a rich awareness of life and meaning. It would be a pleasure to converse with someone like Mira!

Subj: John & Anna
Date: 96-08-29 17:43:16 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

As we approach the upcoming last “nervous 5″ episodes for the season, I’ve been pondering a probem with the appearance of Anna and how her presence will affect J&D.

as ShePsych pointed out in a quote from a recent si fi mag BB mentioned the “history” and chemistry between himself and his real life wife that would make the John & Anna Sheridan relationship real and fit in with the story development. The one thing I’d find a bit of a problem (but very real, I’ve seen it happen in many couples I know, esp those going through divorces and new relationships simultanteously, who go through reconciliations, leaving the new woman on the sidelines) is John getting back together with Anna. If he were angry with Delenn and felt his trust betrayed and wanted to go into denial of the pain, would he move in with Anna, remembering the good of their relationship, the joy of finding her and feeling she’d be more honest with him? It’s natural and human, but I find it more emotionally tangled than B5 has been to date.

Delenn would have to forgive John, who’d have to forgive her, etc. it’s emotionally messy. So far, most of the stronger “good guy” characters manage to maintain their internal sense of direction in spite of “flack” coming at them from all directions. If he goes this route, he’s using sex as a way of distracting himself so he doesn’t have to do the harder task. JMS would have found a clever and realistic way of delaying well into the 4th season any consummation of the j&d relationship. Delenn is more advanced than John, she is less fooled by emotions, although she’s willing to learn from them. She is more in tune with her inner truth and would want to be sure John is internally stronger before advancing the relationship further. They’d need alot more time to heal.

any thoughts?

Subj: Re:Kids on B5
Date: 96-08-29 20:45:12 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

I just watched a tape of And Now for a Word – in the course of which, a fake commercial for Psicorp was shown, featuring a young adolescent boy who was recruited by the corp…

very brief, but it *does* qualify as another kid on B5

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-29 22:58:55 EDT
From: KScott4674
Posted on: America Online

maybe Barrie J, but could it be possible that Anna Sheridan is doing this unwillingly. With Anna coming back is throwing the monkey wrench into John life. I remember the keeper that had held control of Londo when John traveled into the future. Could there be a keeper on Anna? I think that Anna is just a pawn to use against John for the shadows are very nervous about Babylon 5? They are willing to sink to any low to destroy a government. Wht do you think? Could there be a Keeper in control of Anna?

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-30 00:19:58 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

Interesting comments, Barrie. I think we are going to be seeing these tangled emotions come to the forefront the last 2 eps of the final five. Delenn is going to be paying a price for her keeping mum on the subject of the Shadows. How high a price..can’t say for sure yet. The scene we saw in WWE, with the door to Sheridan’s quarters opening and Delenn dropping the snowglobe in shocked surprise…I am wondering if all along Delenn KNEW Anna was alive. Big secret to keep. To tell John beforehand of her being alive would have thrown him off the course toward becoming The ONE (which also has something to do with prophecy and Valen…?). Now Anna shows up on John’s doorstep to throw a monkey wrench into the works…courtesy of the Shadows…

The spoo is going to hit the fan when Sheridan realizes what Delenn has been keeping from him all this time. Anna takes off for Z’ha’dum, Sheridan goes after her, and……I dunno. This is all pure speculation on my part but I’d be interested in knowing if I’m “warm”. What do you think?

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-30 01:26:10 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Sounds like a good theory to me. I wonder if the deep dark secret is that Anna is alive and well and living on Z’ha’dum *or* what the deal with people like her (i.e. Morden) really and truly are. Delenn may have an idea that Anna *might* be or *could* be alive vs. *is* alive. The dropping of the snow globe might hint that she is just as shocked as John will be. Instead of “how could you know she was alive and not tell me”, might it not be “how could you know she might be alive and/or *like this* (whatever that turns out to be) and not even warn me?”

in the midst of all this typing, another thought just occured to me. Perhaps the warning to Londo about not killing the one already dead might not pertain to Morden (as many have speculated) but Anna Sheridan instead?

Subj: Re:John & Anna (spoiler)
Date: 96-08-30 01:28:15 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

minor spoiler speculation

 

 

 

 
it also occurs to me that Delenn might know of Anna in some shadowy capacity but not know that she is Anna Sheridan. This might account for the fascination she will have for John and Anna’s wedding photos and other personal items as per one of the scenes shown at Comicon. You know, the old “wait — I’ve seen this face before. Could it be….? No, her name was Melissa…..” or whatever.

Subj: Re:John & Anna (spoiler)
Date: 96-08-30 15:43:32 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

Amber: I saw the clips at the comicon (Chicago) also. Here’s my spoiler space:

 

 

 

 

The clips that stand out in my mind the most are the ones involving John and/or Delenn. 1)The argument between the two while one (John?) is holding the picture of Anna (actually that’s an assumption..I can’t remember for sure if it was Anna!) It looks like they are pretty upset. Did John just find out something about Anna that Delenn had been holding back? And 2) the image of Delenn sobbing against a BabCom station. She slowly appears to be collapsing. Did she just find out that John is on his way to Z’ha’dum? When I saw that, I was inwardly going “Yyieeeeee!”
And we’ve already discussed the scene in John’s room as Anna (assumption again but, hey, it’s her, right?) opens the door. What’s going thru Delenn’s mind…”In Valen’s name! It’s HER!” The look on her face is one of shocked recognition. And she drops the snowglobe of the lighthouse (which has its own symbolism, imo. The lighthouse (B5) which lights the way against the darkness (the Shadows..). Well, all speculation again. What else is there to do til the new eps start? 34 days to go (Oct. 3 airdate here)!!! Any more thoughts to share? =)

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-31 00:22:06 EDT
From: EQRIS
Posted on: America Online

My guess is…..

Sheridan gets bumped off on Z’ha’dum…..

Of course, they will find some way to bring him back, but I really think he is going to suffer some kind of physical death. That’s just the feeling I have about this whole thing…..

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-31 11:53:46 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

OOOOH, I just had a tangential leap off of that idea.

SPOILER of eps not yet aired
SPOILER of eps not yet aired
SPOILER of eps not yet aired
SPOILER of eps not yet aired
don’t page down if you don’t want to know
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HOPE THIS IS ENOUGH
/
/
Maybe that’s part of what Kosh left Sheridan (Walkabout — see J&D page) — he’ll die, yet be reborn, a la Gandalf the Grey/White in TLotR

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-08-31 14:01:29 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

I don’t think Sheridan will get bumped off at Z’ha’dum and then brought back. That’s a Trek-like cheat that Joe wouldn’t do. But, recall the scene of Sheridan and Delenn in the Centauri jail cell..she spoke of his loss of innocence, of pain, of grief. People speak of how dark B5 is. It’s going to get darker still before it starts getting lighter. My opinion. Your mileage may vary…

Subj: Spoilers
Date: 96-08-31 19:18:41 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

just to keep things crystal clear, please announce spoilers or what you saw at the vid releases from the Conventions before you post. Some here, (and I’m trying my darnest to be one of them but I have very poor willpower) want to wait and be shocked, dismayed, whatever in october and not know what’s going to happen.

I don’t know should there should be a special spoiler topic area for those of us who want to discuss what we know thanks to the UK?

Subj: Re:John & Anna (spoiler)
Date: 96-08-31 19:31:56 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
oh heck, nobody mentioned that bit before about Chicago, now I know something new… oh, well

told ya I had no will power.

Subj: Re:John & Anna (spoiler)
Date: 96-08-31 21:08:26 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

Barrie, much apologizings if my spoilers disturbed you. I did leave spoiler space, didn’t I? I should have been more clear about what the spoilers were spoiling. For what it’s worth, how I describe those scenes and what they actually are, can be light-years in difference.

Subj: Re:John & Anna (spoiler)
Date: 96-09-01 00:02:12 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
Oh you did leave enough space, I just didn’t have the willpower to ignore them!!! my own fault!

Subj: the Deal & Price
Date: 96-09-01 00:31:21 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

in WWE part 2 Delenn said they accomplished all they set out to achieve, but at a price…was a deal struck? once knowing what the shadows wanted, would there have been a trade off? What was sacrificed? a world? Narn? did Delenn offer some Minbari territory, or herself? John & Delenn are spared death (unlike Kosh) for some reason, which JMS says we’ll find out about. did Anna make a deal?

I’m also beginning to think that as far back as TATHL Delenn knew Anna was shadow food. John couldn’t be told because he’s in a position to get himself a ship and head out, and blow it as far as letting shadows know what they know, or killing himself.

Subj: red fruit
Date: 96-09-02 19:09:05 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

I don’t know about you guys, but I’m getting tense again. So to keep a positive note, we know J&D get married, so why not plan for the wedding?

Do you want a Minbari ceremony
or human
or both

and if you want both, do you want red fruit before or after “I do” ?

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-02 20:10:56 EDT
From: SMPTrek
Posted on: America Online

I want to know what red fruit has to do with a wedding. Is it some American custom we Brits know nothing about or am I just being dense?

Sandra

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-02 22:49:47 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Do you want a Minbari ceremony
or human
or both>>
When has Delenn *ever* not gotten her way on these things?

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-09-03 00:31:30 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

My speculation is that Anna Sheridan will indeed show up on B5, and be controlled by the Shadows in some way. John Sheridan may or may not figure this out right away, but I expect something like one of the following to happen:

– Sheridan has to kill Anna to “free” her from the Shadows.
– Sheridan frees Anna from the Shadows, but the strain kills her.
– Anna does BAD STUFF, then flees to Z’Ha’Dum — and Sheridan follows her.
– Anna dies (in a scenario like one of the above), and John races off to Z’Ha’Dum to “get those dirty bastards.”
– Anna dies, and in the course of the episode, John realizes that if Anna was alive, maybe others from the Icarus are still alive, too — and he goes off to rescue THEM.

And THEN, when John gets to Z’Ha’Dum, the REALLY BAD STUFF happens to him, or to the crew of the Icarus, or he realizes that the Shadows have taken over Earth, or something like that, and he has to make a VERY HARD CHOICE — the first down payment on the “terrible price.”
Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 03:23:20 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

In year one (I think parliment of dreams) there was a big rebirth ceremony with red fruit. rebirth ceremonies double as wedding ceremonies….

i think this was another one of Valen’s concoctions.
Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-09-03 03:25:29 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

add this to the list:

anna (like Londo 17 yrs from now) still has some good in her and does something to help John and betrays her shadow masters and they kill her.

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 10:14:46 EDT
From: LynnRAllen
Posted on: America Online

<<I want to know what red fruit has to do with a wedding. Is it some American custom we Brits know nothing about or am I just being dense?

Sandra>>

Don’t feel bad, Sandra. I don’t know what they mean either. And I’m both married and an American…

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 10:19:32 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

The eating of red fruit is a Minbari wedding custom, not an American one. For what its worth, I’d like to see a primarily Minbari ceremony with maybe just a few human customs mixed in. (And Delenn must have a really cool dress)
-Lynne

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 18:05:06 EDT
From: Its a myth
Posted on: America Online

Personally, I’d prefer they not get “married.” It puts such a mundane cast on things, IMHO. I’d rather see high romance over “marriage” any time!

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 19:11:12 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

I suspect that Sheridan’s “loss of innocence” on Zha’ha’dum will involve something like a “Coventry decision.” He will be forced to do some almost dispicable in the name of the greater good.

What it is I have no idea, of course, but I have a feeling that he will come back from Zha’ha’dum a widower for real this time.

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-09-03 19:40:28 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Very good speculation, jvibber.

— barb

Subj: Re:John & Anna
Date: 96-09-03 19:41:56 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

could happen, barrie

— barb

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 19:42:53 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Or, he will have to really learn about forgiveness because of the Z’Ha’Dum experience — and forgive himself for not dying instead of Anna, and forgive Delenn for not being totally honest about what she knew…

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-03 22:26:31 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

the red fruit of forgetfullness…. I guess that is why we’re mixing rebirth ceremonies, weddigs and Z’ha’dum and prices (bride prices perhaps?) and forgiveness

Subj: Re:red fruit
Date: 96-09-04 23:39:13 EDT
From: Banya
Posted on: America Online

I feel that perhaps the terrible price the Captain may have to pay will perhaps involve his having to “put anna out of her misery”. It would be a most terrible thing for he obviously loved his wife and is a man of great ethics, but after all this time, it is almost certain that she cannot be the Anna he was married to.
Subj: Starcon 96
Date: 96-09-05 21:10:30 EDT
From: Akira34613
Posted on: America Online

Hi. I live in Denver, and there is a convention sometime this month. does anyone know the dates?

Re: red Fruit
How about a Mixed ceremony. That would be kinda of cool to see.
Any speculations?

Subj: Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-06 12:46:11 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

It seems to me unlikely that Delenn *knows* that Anna Sheridan is still alive. (Of course,
I’m assuming here that the woman at the door is Anna Sheridan, something we still
don’t know for a fact.) If Delenn knew that Anna was not killed on Z’ha’dum and that
the Shadows had in some way enslaved Sheridan’s wife, we would not have seen the
extremely strong reaction shown by Delenn in her time flash when the door to John’s
quarters suddenly opened. Remember, Delenn is the woman who coolly stared down
a lunatic armed terrorist in “Ceremonies of Light and Dark”. Such a woman does not
panic easily, and Delenn’s reaction to the woman at the door is more in line with the
sudden appearance of the entire Shadow fleet at the B5 jumpgate.

In the episode “In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum”, Kosh and Delenn together tell Sheridan that
there could have been other survivors of the Icarus besides Morden. It would have taken
someone with Kosh’s powers to ascertain exactly who the survivors were, and if he had
told Delenn that yes, Anna Sheridan lives, it is doubtful that Delenn could have proceeded
as she has with Sheridan on a romantic level. At the very least, the “ghost” of Anna’s
sudden reappearance would have haunted her, and it would seem to me that she would
have prepared for the probability that Anna would indeed resurface in Sheridan’s life.
Delenn is very much a realist, not given to living in some fantasy world, and she would
know that if the Shadows in some way controlled Anna, they would be certain to use
Anna to get to Sheridan. Again, we wouldn’t see the utter shock displayed as Delenn
dropped the glass snowball.

Morden, of course, would know if Anna survived. If he had told Delenn, it would have
probably been in order to blackmail her – “Do what I say, or I’ll tell your boyfriend that
his wife is still among the living.” Given the sacrifices Delenn has already made to fight
the Shadows – her opportunity to serve as head of the Gray Council, her position as Gray
Council member and her standing in Minbari society, her very identity as a Minbari – I do
not believe for a moment that she would allow Morden to manipulate her. It would
be more in keeping with her character for her to tell Morden to “Tell Sheridan, and be
damned”, much as the Duke of Wellington once responded to an attempt to blackmail him.

Sheridan is going to feel extremely guilty if he finds out that Anna is still alive. After all,
he on some level will know that he could have gone to Z’ha’dum immediately after Kosh
and Delenn told him that others besides Morden might have survived from the Icarus, but
he allowed them to persuade him to release Morden before finding out the truth and to wait
to go to Z’ha’dum. Whether John will project some of that guilt onto Delenn, blaming her
to lessen his own feelings that he failed Anna, remains to be seen.

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-06 15:12:36 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

Very cogent ananlysis. I agree.

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-06 21:04:04 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I guess we’ll see how well John learned his lessons from Brother Theo, eh?

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-07 01:07:31 EDT
From: Juli17
Posted on: America Online

Hi. I just started reading the B5 boards. Like everyone else I think Babylon 5 is the best written show on television. I just wanted to add my two cents about Delenn/John/Anna.

I agree that Delenn would not have been carrying around the knowledge that Anna is alive for all
this time. I do believe it was Anna she saw at the door in WWE2. Her extreme reaction gives
credence to her not having suspected that Anna was still alive. But after her glimpse into the
future in WWE2, Delenn now knows that Anna is probably alive and likely to show up at Babylon
5 at some point, sooner or later. The question is, will she share this information with John?

I think Delenn probably will not tell John what she saw in the future. She may fear that telling
John would put an emotional spin on his decisions and cause him to possibly take actions that
might change the future. Not knowing any other facts surrounding Anna’s potential return (the
why, how, when, state of mind, etc) may give Delenn reason to believe that holding back and
letting events fall as they may is the wisest course. She might even be able to convince herself
that the future she saw was only one possibility, and by not telling John she is protecting him in
case Anna never actually reappears.

In any case, if John finds out that Delenn knew Anna was very likely alive and she let him be
blindsided by Anna’s sudden reappearance without so much as a warning…well, he would no
doubt be justifiably angry with her. The fallout might teach Delenn one thing she hasn’t seemed
to grasp about human relationships thus far, that they rarely survive without total honesty between the parties. Delenn cannot keep secrets from John, no matter how laudable the mot-
ivation, if she wants to have a romantic relationship with him. If this comes to pass, hopefully
he will give her a second chance. She’s probably worth it.

Subj: The price
Date: 96-09-07 02:05:44 EDT
From: KBaker1998
Posted on: America Online

Hello
Well I have been reading throught the B5 boards I thought of another possibility for “the price”.
In WWE durring the scene in the Centarui cell where John learns about David and how Delenn says “our son is safe” So to my point, could John and Delenn having to give up their first born child to the shadows be the terrible, terrible price?
My 2 cents
KBaker

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-07 10:41:50 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

<<So to my point, could John and Delenn having to give up their first born child to the shadows be the terrible, terrible price?>>

It’s an interesting thought that their son is something to do with the “terrible, terrible price”. Their lives in the future certainly seem as dangerous as in the present, but I don’t think they had to give him up to the Shadows. The price is something else or even several things. Thank God, it won’t be that long a wait now. People who don’t mind be spoiled will be able to find out some answers when “Z’Ha’Dum” airs in the UK in a few weeks. On a personal note, I’ll be in London next weekend and will be able to see “Shadow Dancing”, the episode where I suspect the snowglobe incident happens(I hope I’m right).

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-07 11:49:12 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<< Delenn cannot keep secrets from John, no matter how laudable the mot-
ivation, if she wants to have a romantic relationship with him. >>

But what will John tell Delenn about what he saw in *his* time flash? Delenn may not
be the only one keeping secrets about their future relationship…

Subj: Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t Be
Date: 96-09-07 13:21:11 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

A thought occurs to me about Delenn’s time flash in WWEII. JMS may have painted
himself into a corner there, credibility-wise. If Delenn now knows who will be at the do
or
of John’s quarters because she saw it all in her time flash, why would she be so surprised
to see the person she has already seen in her vision when the instance really happens?
Wouldn’t she remember the time flash as she picks up the snow globe even if she had
forgotten about the vision, which is extremely unlikely given the its traumatic nature?
Even if she had dismissed her time flash as an illusion and false, as its circumstances were
unfolding before her eyes, she would have to think twice about its truth. Would she be so
relaxed, so comfortable at that moment alone with John if she knew what was going to
happen and who was coming to his door within seconds?

This makes me question the entire time flash and it makes the other time travel paradoxes
we have all noticed look trivial. What we saw in the time flash *cannot* happen in real
B5 time in the same way that Delenn saw it and at the same time retain believability.

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-07 14:59:59 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

excellent analysis! exactly the line of thinking I’ve been moving towards.

the only thing: if Delenn knows something is going to shock the hell out of her why go through with this minbari custom?

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-07 15:42:03 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Martha,
your analysis is good enough to post to the Ask JMS folder and to the Delenn and speculations folders too.

you address burblings that have been nagging me for a long time. Good Going!

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-07 15:42:38 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

>> So to my point, could John and Delenn having to give up their first born child to the shadows be the terrible, terrible price?>>
I doubt it. It would be an interesting twist on a price, but I think a solo individual is not the answer. David has been forshadowed by Kosh and the Rangers. He’s too important for the future. Also, parents are pretty darn protective and between John and Delenn, i’m sure they’d come up with another option than their child.

I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, and just haven’t cracked it yet. Others have thought it might be the extinction of another race, like the Narns, but John is not in a position to say “take this species” he wouldn’t do that. It would be G’Kar’s call to say, we surrender to you to save the galaxy.

Another option has been that the price might be silence and standing by, but that happened while B5 was under Earth rule and there was a strategic reason –to keep the Shadows in the dark. With the Narn situation before, John & Delenn just didn’t speak up and the Centauri did the “work” of killing off Narns. But now free of the handcuffing by Earth Dome and the Shadow war in the open, and as John gets politically and militarily stronger with allies and a fleet of White Star ships and the like, such sidelining will not be his style.

The “terrible, terrible price” we have 3 options that have been presented.
the language suggests than a solo person?
John not the type to say “take that race”
John not the type to stay on the sidelines.

does anyone have any more?

Don’t forget Delenn is always saving John’s life, or trying to spare him pain, sometimes at the cost to herself. When she warns him about not going to Z, how connected is that statement to the price? Is she saying something that could change the past and is she thereby willing to accept a changed life? what would she give up to save him from Z?

Subj: Re:Delenn & John & Anna
Date: 96-09-07 15:44:07 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

**hopefully
he will give her a second chance. She’s probably worth it***???

are you kidding? I think the question should be, is *he* worth it? but otherwise, yes I agree, Delenn, as you and Barb Powell has said before, needs to face up that among humans, you have to be honest if you want a viable relationship with someone. A spouse is not some layperson out there that a (former) member of the Gray Council can treat on a *need to know* basis. Delenn has been in a bad habit of withholding information for some time. In fact, the longer you withhold, the harder it is to come clean.

then, we still have a problem of explaining the funny looks on Delenn’s facewhenever Anna’s name comes up.

barrie
Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-07 16:40:35 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

We may be reading a lot more into Delenn’s “terrible,terrible” price than is necessary…
She may be referring to the massive loss of life such a galactic war must bring by its very nature, and not to a particular sacrifice made by an individual in giving his or her life, or a race
sacrificing itself for the rest of the galaxy, or whatever…just a thought.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t B
Date: 96-09-07 19:07:05 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Unless of course, Delenn didn’t get a complete look at who was at the door — just saw a shadow.

I know, I know, I’m grasping at straws here :)

— barb

(of course, knowing jms, i’m sure he’ll paint himself back out of that corner!)

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-07 22:18:53 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<<Unless of course, Delenn didn’t get a complete look at who was at the door — just saw a shadow.>>

If she didn’t get a complete look, then why the shock? Plus, what I said still goes even if she didn’t see who was at the door…Delenn would *know* the situation she’d seen in the time flash was occurring in real time, so why should she be so surprised? – she knows what’s coming is bad news as she remembers her reaction in the time flash, so it isn’t a surprise to her, so why drop
the snow globe? – It’s deja vu all over again!

Martha

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-07 22:57:58 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online
<<A thought occurs to me about Delenn’s time flash in WWEII. JMS may have painted
himself into a corner there, credibility-wise. If Delenn now knows who will be at the door
of John’s quarters because she saw it all in her time flash, why would she be so surprised
to see the person she has already seen in her vision when the instance really happens?
Wouldn’t she remember the time flash as she picks up the snow globe even if she had
forgotten about the vision, which is extremely unlikely given the its traumatic nature?
Even if she had dismissed her time flash as an illusion and false, as its circumstances were
unfolding before her eyes, she would have to think twice about its truth. Would she be so
relaxed, so comfortable at that moment alone with John if she knew what was going to
happen and who was coming to his door within seconds?>>

 

<<Unless of course, Delenn didn’t get a complete look at who was at the door — just saw a shadow.

I know, I know, I’m grasping at straws here :)

— barb

(of course, knowing jms, i’m sure he’ll paint himself back out of that corner!)>>

 

My impression of Delenn’s time flash is that it was a different kind of experience than John’s getting unstuck in time. His consciousness actually occupied his future body, and he actually experienced the events we saw. During her flash, Delenn was an observer, not a participant. When she asked Zathras what had happened, he answered, “Time flash..*see* yourself forward or backward in time.” Presumably, the time stabilizer kept her and the others (who, JMS has said, also had flashes–you can see Marcus grab his head & stumble) from actually moving into a different time frame. So, rather than actually being in the room, holding the snowglobe and seeing someone at the door, presumably, she watched herself as the events unfolded, probably from our own POV, and may be as curious as we about who could cause such a reaction.

However, I agree that whatever she experienced or saw, her awareness must have an impact on what will happen. Like you, I doubt she’d just forget or dismiss the incident–much of her life has been guided by prophesy, so she’d almost certainly see the flash as significant. I’d expect her to have some misgivings, or try to alter circumstances. Still, remember Oedipus, or the man who left his village to avoid meeting Death–Often, the actions one takes to avoid fate are precisely those which create the undesired future.

PJC

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-08 10:11:52 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

<< I agree that whatever she experienced or saw, her awareness must have an impact on what will happen. Like you, I doubt she’d just forget or dismiss the incident–much of her life has been guided by prophesy, so she’d almost certainly see the flash as significant. I’d expect her to have some misgivings, or try to alter circumstances. Still, remember Oedipus, or the man who left his village to avoid meeting Death–Often, the actions one takes to avoid fate are precisely those which create the undesired future.>>

Oh, I’m not arguing about that…my major point was and is that it can’t happen in reality the way Delenn experienced it and make sense, in whatever mode(a vision or an actual bodily experience as was Sheridan’s time flash) she experienced it. Delenn may believe it is fated to happen, and
go ahead with the whole thing as she’s a believer in destiny, but she can’t be surprised at it. Or, as you say, she may try to avoid it and be unable to, but the element of surprise would still be missing if the experience happens in real time as she saw it. Or it may have been an alternate future, as we saw Garibaldi’s time flash turn out to be… JMS said that *John’s* experience was the true future, but I’m not aware that he said the same thing of Delenn’s. Does anyone have any information about that?
And I know that even if the time flash isn’t the real future, Anna will probably still show up.

Martha

 

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-08 12:02:55 EDT
From: MacManJWS
Posted on: America Online

<<The “terrible, terrible price” we have 3 options that have been presented.
the language suggests than a solo person?
John not the type to say “take that race”
John not the type to stay on the sidelines.>>

I say FIGHT!

Macker

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-08 16:23:38 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

AH, of course — I knew there was something I was forgetting … the time stabilizer made the rest observers! That’s why Delenn can still be surprised by who was at the door.

I got the impression by that ep that Susan had a flash forward that included Delenn (by the way she locked onto her gaze after the flash) — it’ll be interesting to see if JMS lets us know what Susan — and even Marcus — saw at some future point.

— barb

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-08 16:25:02 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Macker —

fight.

— barb 😉

Subj: Firstborn
Date: 96-09-08 18:00:01 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

I wouldn’t write off the loss of J&D’s child as a “terrible price” quite yet. I can think of absolutely NOTHING worse than the death of one of my children. It’s not an event that I can wrap my thought processes around, even hypothetically, let alone imagine how I would feel if it should happen. I get a real chuckle thinking about Delenn announcing her pregnancy some time in the middle of Season 4 (which, hopefully, won’t disappear without a trace >:) and that the child she’s carrying is a GIRL. *That* would mess up a lot of B5 fan’s heads.
Kimberley
(who’s so sure JMS ISN’T going to do this that she has no qualms about posting what might be considered a story idea…)
Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-08 18:32:21 EDT
From: SchnellJan
Posted on: America Online

I think she only saw herself and a reaction, no who was at the door.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-08 18:55:52 EDT
From: METonkin
Posted on: America Online

Whether Delenn was really present in body in her time flash or she only observed herself
having the experience is immaterial to what I’m saying, as is whether the real Delenn
saw what the time flash Delenn saw at the door. I think we can agree that the real Delenn
saw herself contentedly watching Sheridan sleep, then being surprised as the door opened,
then being so shocked as she saw who was at the door that she dropped and broke the
snow globe. So the real Delenn would know as the circumstances of the time flash began
unfolding before her eyes that *something* bad was coming to Sheridan’s door within
seconds, and if we assume Delenn heard what we heard, she knows that the something bad
is a woman. (And if you were Delenn, wouldn’t you give some thought as to just which
woman would cause you to be so horrified? – I certainly would.) We should not see her
so comfortable and so relaxed, leaning against the wall watching John sleep and wandering
around the room idly picking up knickknacks.

If you had a horrible nightmare, one so vivid and so real that it stayed with you the next
day, and then you found yourself in the same place and with the same people and doing the
same things yourself that you’d seen in that nightmare, wouldn’t you be at least a little
nervous? Even though you *knew* it was only a dream? Well, from what Zathros said
about time flashes, there is a level of reality even to future ones that dreams do not possess.
And I do not believe for a minute that Delenn would have forgotten her time flash – she
would recognize it when it began to happen in real time. So again, Delenn should not be so
very relaxed, and Delenn should not be so very surprised if indeed we see her time flash
prove to be the “true” future rather than an alternate future. And even if we say that the
shock comes because she recognizes the woman at the door, that she saw the time flash as
we saw it and she couldn’t see the woman that the time flash Delenn saw( and I still think that
Delenn would have given some thought to just who that woman could be after the experience of
the time flash, as Delenn’s no fool) the part about the state of mind of the real Delenn still applies. It can’t be all moonlight and roses up until the moment the door opens and still be true to life.

Martha

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-08 20:00:54 EDT
From: Striker08
Posted on: America Online

***unless of course Delenn didn’t get a complete look at who was at the door — just saw a shadow.***
You could be right. I think I remember Zathras saying that she saw her self in the future, when he was explaining what it was. It could be different then Sheridan’s flash.

Subj: Misdirection
Date: 96-09-09 01:54:39 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

One topic I keep finding myself coming back to, is: If Anna Sheridan is indeed on Babylon 5, WHY IS SHE HERE?

My conclusion is: misdirection. She is here to occupy John Sheridan’s energy and attention while the S’ha’dows do something nasty over in a corner of the universe someplace that John SHOULD be paying attention to. Meanwhile, he’s busy asking questions, like: Is she here to kill me? Should I kill her? Can I save her? Are there Shadow Men near her, like with Morden? Does she like flarn?

So, what ARE the S’ha’dows doing, ‘way over there in another part of the forest?
Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-09 11:37:20 EDT
From: LynnRAllen
Posted on: America Online

Maybe the mysterious figure in the doorway is Anna Sheridan with a bone growing out of her head… wouldn’t that be ironic?

Naw, just a thought…

Subj: SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-09 12:23:28 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

Some Spoiler Space for those who don’t want to know:

 

 

 

 

John and Delenn finally kiss (her first, his second) in the episode “And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place” aired this weekend in the U.K. and to be aired in the U.S. the week of 10/14.

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-09 14:33:23 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

This had been my thought when Amber called the Com vid preview mentioning the Minbari 3 day sleepover custom as being an anima/animus gizmo.

so, the cute thing is that it *might* be John’s inner feminine self is part Minbari. is this his soul showing through?

Subj: Anna and the Law
Date: 96-09-09 14:35:11 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Yes, it’s very likely that Anna is a live person, only a flesh and blood person could cause so much turmoil for J&D that we know is happening. The only stress i see is that a real person would delay his involvement with Delenn as we know JOhn, he’d feel guilty being still married and involved with another. it’s not his style (wouldn’t she have to die in order for John not to be a bigamist? how do you divorce a dead person? ) Some time ago, someone here went into a legal discussion of that process, 7 years is it?

Since JMS has said he isn’t bringing MG back in season 4, sounds like a kill-off (or she’s already dead and John’s dreaming again). who knows.

barrie

Subj: Re:Firstborn
Date: 96-09-09 15:56:16 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<<I wouldn’t write off the loss of J&D’s child as a “terrible price” quite yet.>>
I would. In Sheridan’s flashforward, Delenn tells him that their son is safe. I can’t think of any reason why Delenn would lie about that.
-Lynne

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-09 17:27:13 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<I got the impression by that ep that Susan had a flash forward that included Delenn (by the way she locked onto her gaze after the flash) — it’ll be interesting to see if JMS lets us know what Susan — and even Marcus — saw at
some future point.

— barb>>

I’ve wondered the same thing. JMS has supposedly said that, by the end of the season, we’ll see more of what happened after G’Kar & Londo’s struggle. Since he has also said that time travel will happen only once in the B5 universe, I’m assuming that someone already has the information. Since the glimpses of the future occur when someone inhabits his/her future body, or observes him/herself, presumably the information would come from someone who was on B4 when the flashes were occurring. One idea I’ve come up with is the possibility that Marcus (or Susan, or someone else) was/will be waiting near Centauri prime, possibly with David in his/her keeping, and will rendezvous with J & D, and that’s what that individual’s time flash was.

Another thought that just occurred to me is the fact that all Centauri supposedly have prophetic dreams showing the moment and circumstances of their deaths. Maybe Vir’s death dream will reveal more information about what followed. If so, I only hope it’s about what happened long after his ascension to the throne. I’d like to think he’ll (forgive me) live long and prosper.

Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-09 17:51:58 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

You must mean the week of 11/14, because the first of the final 5 doesn’t even air til the last week of Oct.

— barb

Subj: Re:Delenn’s Time Flash Can’t
Date: 96-09-09 17:54:10 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

Very good, ShePsych — Susan or Marcus might have David…it’ll be exciting to watch when the eps finally air 😉

— barb

(p.s. i agree with you about Vir…peace and long life (sorry 2)

Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-09 18:08:32 EDT
From: Diane K De
Posted on: America Online

No, 10/14 is right. The current schedule is:

w/o 9/30 Walkabout
w/o 10/7 Grey 17 is Missing
w/o 10/14 And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
w/o 10/21 Shadow Dancing
w/o 10/28 Z’Ha’Dum (season finale)

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-09 18:34:48 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
>>We may be reading a lot more into Delenn’s “terrible,terrible” price than is necessary…
She may be referring to the massive loss of life such a galactic war must bring by its very nature, and not to a particular sacrifice made by an individual in giving his or her life, or a race sacrificing itself for the rest of the galaxy, or whatever…just a thought.>>


Martha, there are times when we’ve done that too! Although we all had a wonderful time with the snowglobe and it sure fit so **perfectly** into the symbolism of their relationship (the marvelous analysis provided on this board are examples of such), from what SLV found out, JMS just asked for an object that could be used to indicate her shock and they sent him a snowglobe!

barrie

Subj: Re:Firstborn
Date: 96-09-09 18:35:47 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online
>>I wouldn’t write off the loss of J&D’s child as a “terrible price” quite yet. I can think of absolutely NOTHING worse than the death of one of my children. It’s not an event that I can wrap my thought processes around, even hypothetically, let alone imagine how I would feel if it should happen.>>

Do you know how many parents would be upset by such an idea? No, JMS is not that stupid.

If the Shadows wanted a child of J&D’s why stop with the first? Although **any** child by them will have significance, to the Rangers at least, as a blending of Minbari/Human and the symbol of the Third Age, but the destined Counselor foretold by Kosh in TATHL will be a son. Just as Martha has ruled out (with very good reasons) why Anna won’t come on board with a baby, I don’t think a child’s loss is the price. If the Shadows think the child will be a great leader, this means they have the same information Kosh has and know it would be male, so a girl wouldn’t interest them.

Why not kill the parents? That’s a sure way to knock off any future leader (remember the Terminator?) Remember that Delenn’s metamorphis is a powerful symbol to many Minbari and humans. She is part of a propechy for this child. But killing her would only delay the inevitable. As Delenn said to Sebastian, if she dies others will take her place. Perhaps that’s why there are other triluminaries around…just in case Delenn gets knocked off.

Look how easily Morden acccessed Kosh’s quarters and had him killed and yet neither John nor Delenn have round the clock security and they are still alive and cooking up trouble for the Shadows. Had they been killed, would B4 have gone back into the past? Who would Sinclair/Valen left his letters for? I myself think it’s madness that John hasn’t anteed up security for Delenn after the Night Watch incident. First as a man in love, you’d think after such a show of protectiveness he’d keep it up and secondly, he knows Night Watch is still on the station and might try it again.

JMS said that by the end of season 3 we would know why J &D have not been killed…which implies *something* is going on!

Barrie
Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-09 19:42:40 EDT
From: LWC123
Posted on: America Online

Spoiler reaction:

 

 
Spoiler

 

Yippee! It’s about time!

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-09 22:55:53 EDT
From: LLarson10
Posted on: America Online

IMO, the price Sheridan will pay will hit close to home. Am I mistaken in saying that JMS has said that someone else, besides Kosh, will die? Don’t have a clue who it can be but it will be part of that loss of innocence, that grief that he will experience. Think of the comments Sheridan has said about Coventry, during World War 2, when the Allies had to allow the deaths of British civilians, to protect their discovery of the German codes. Perhaps Sheridan will have to bear the guilt of allowing the deaths of innocents? And of friends? It was hard enough to lose Kosh but methinks Sheridan isn’t thru with such anguish yet…. Or us, for that matter…

Subj: Re:Firstborn
Date: 96-09-09 22:57:20 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

<<<<I wouldn’t write off the loss of J&D’s child as a “terrible price” quite yet.>>
I would. In Sheridan’s flashforward, Delenn tells him that their son is safe. I can’t think of any reason why Delenn would lie about that.
-Lynne >>

Who said Delenn is lying? There’s no proof that “our son” is their firstborn or their *only* child, for that matter. We don’t even know how old he is (and JMS ain’t talkin’). There’s no reason they couldn’t have had more than one child in the 17 years between now and John’s flashforward. Of course I’m wrong, but there’s no reason I’m not right, either. 😀

Kimberley
Subj: Re:Firstborn
Date: 96-09-09 23:11:10 EDT
From: KaylieWlkr
Posted on: America Online

>>>>I wouldn’t write off the loss of J&D’s child as a “terrible price” quite yet. I can think of absolutely NOTHING worse than the death of one of my children. It’s not an event that I can wrap my thought processes around, even hypothetically, let alone imagine how I would feel if it should happen.>>

Do you know how many parents would be upset by such an idea? No, JMS is not that stupid. <<

Um, what has parents being upset go to do with anything?

One of the cardinal rules of storytelling is BEAT UP YOUR CHARACTERS. There’s no such thing as an interesting story in which nothing bad happens to the people therein. I’ve written mucho fan fiction, and the stories which have gotten the strongest reactions were the ones in which I’ve really HURT my characters (or that particular universe’s characters, playing in someone else’s sandbox as I were :). I’ve written them raped as children, had their beloved child die, and had them breaking each other’s hearts and becoming estranged for years over a silly misunderstanding (not all in one story, of course :). It hurt ME to write that stuff, but they were also the best things I’d ever written. No, JMS *isn’t* stupid. But that’s got nothing to do with whether or not he’ll beat up his characters. We’ve only seen a little more than HALF the B5 story. Hang on, kiddies. If JMS is 1/10th the writer I think he is, it’s gonna get MUCH worse.

Kimberley
(spreading cheer throughout the galaxy…)
Subj: Telekinetics
Date: 96-09-09 23:23:42 EDT
From: TheLadyT
Posted on: America Online

Hello all. I’m new to this board, but I hope to hang out for a while. :^) At the request of a friend, I’m posting the following (just posted in the Ask JMS #10 folder) for discussion:

Subj: Telekinetics&Madness
Date: 96-09-09 23:19:20 EDT
From: TheLadyT

JMS,

I wonder why you, thus far, have ignored the more metaphysical humans. Where are the human Lightworkers of B5’s time period–the one’s who (in our time) are learning/evolving/studying the energies of the universe? I can surmise that they would have gone underground when Psi Corps came into being, with a few of the less-talented remaining visible–and making the supreme sacrifice of being held up to ridicule by the Psi Corps. After all, clairvoyance is *extremely* hard to document, along with clairscentience and clairaudience.

Moreover, I have a theory as to why Psi Corps has such a problem with its telekinetics and why they go mad. (Please tell me how far off base I am, or whether I’m on target–grin.) Perhaps it’s because when a telekinetic goes beyond merely moving large or small objects, the telekinetic discovers a sensitivity to the energies of the universe. And when that individual does not have a strong spiritual background–an anchor, if you please, to keep the telekinetic grounded in this dimension–that individual goes mad.

Imagine perceiving energy flows and discovering you can manipulate those flows with a thought; then discovering that EVERYONE has that capability and just doesn’t know it; then watching as everyone around you manipulates his or her own energy environment, and tries to manipulate the environments of others; then realizing just how tenuous their connections to this plane really are, and that the “aware” telekinetic can sever those connections; then noticing the energy fields of the objects around them, and suddenly realizing that each inanimate object contains a certain level of “life force”….etc, etc. Kinda maddening wouldn’t you think without the solid anchor of faith in God/Spirit/Whatever to keep one from going over the edge?

JMS, I’ve really been wondering why the telekinetics of Babylon 5 go mad. Annnd this is the only explanation I’ve been able to come up with, other than of course that the telekinetic’s genetic coding goes haywire/breaks down, causing dillusions and dementia, which works out the same way (to loosely quote Marcus in WWE1–grin).

With Light and Love,
The Lady T Rides On….

PS For those who want to discuss this, at the request of a friend I’m posting this in the Sheridan/Delenn folder. Let’s keep JMS’s folder free of our discussions.

Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-10 00:15:41 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-09 18:08:32 EDT
From: Diane K De

No, 10/14 is right. The current schedule is:

w/o 9/30 Walkabout
w/o 10/7 Grey 17 is Missing
w/o 10/14 And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
w/o 10/21 Shadow Dancing
w/o 10/28 Z’Ha’Dum (season finale)>>

Yes!! Yes!!! YES!!! Only 20 more days!

And I can’t help gloating that, thanks to satellite, I get them slightly earlier that that. I guess I can survive that long. Oops, having said that, poetic justice would mean that my dish will get struck by lightning 1 minute before “Walkabout” airs.

PJC

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-10 00:21:01 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<
From: BARRIEJ

>>We may be reading a lot more into Delenn’s “terrible,terrible” price than is necessary…
She may be referring to the massive loss of life such a galactic war must bring by its very nature, and not to a particular sacrifice made by an individual in giving his or her life, or a race sacrificing itself for the rest of the galaxy, or whatever…just a thought.>>

The oft-quoted JMS comment about the last five eps, “Someone dies…someone almost dies…someone is reborn,” etc. included the statement “Something really big blows up.” As big as a planet, perhaps? Hope not, (unless it’s Z) but the other possibilities don’t sound too good, either.

I may last 20 more days, but my fingernails won’t.

PJC

Subj: Station security
Date: 96-09-10 00:33:20 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<? I myself think it’s madness that John hasn’t anteed up security for Delenn after the Night Watch incident. >>

Absolutely–which is one of the reasons *anyone* being at the door in the middle of the night seems so dumb. I can hear the conversation:

Anna: I just woke up from a 4-year coma, & I’d like to surprise my husband, who has the silly idea that I’m dead, by popping into his quarters in the middle of the night>

Garibaldi: Sure, I didn’t recognize you at first–you don’t look much like your picture. Here’s a pass card. I’m sure he’ll be thrilled to see you. Nah, you don’t need a security escort–we’ve had a little trouble around here lately–nothing serious, just one ambassador asassinated and another one kidnapped, but I’m sure there won’t be any more of that nonsense.

While I’m at it, why don’t I just give you all the computer security codes–oh–wait! Here are the keys to the White Star…

Subj: Re:Valen’s Prophecies
Date: 96-09-10 00:54:58 EDT
From: Sudibelle
Posted on: America Online

Okay, I missed something. When did Kosh give John a prophecy about David?

Confused….

S

Subj: Re:The KISS
Date: 96-09-10 00:57:27 EDT
From: Sudibelle
Posted on: America Online

Ditto that sigh!

S

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-09-10 01:09:06 EDT
From: Sudibelle
Posted on: America Online

Could someone fill this newcomer in on the details of this book? Thanks.

S

Subj: Re:Station security
Date: 96-09-10 01:54:57 EDT
From: AmberH
Posted on: America Online

Let’s give jms some slack for Anna’s immenent arrival, ok? He hasn’t let us down in the logic department yet (okay, *mostly* – but it’s usually just due to editing out the line or two that would have explained whatever) and this one is *too* big to just have it happen the way some of us seem to think it will. Remember, the Shadows have been hanging out with Mr. Morden from day one and no one has *seen* them (except for John and no one else believes that!) and they’ve been everywhere including Kosh’s quarters. Also, Morden slipped on the station by some illegal ways – Garibaldi tries to be everywhere at once, but if he were omnipotent and omniscient, he *wouldn’t* be Garibaldi, now would he? Plenty of other people have gotten on station – lurkers, criminals, transients, etc. It’s already been established that one can get onto B5 without security being alerted. Besides, all Anna needs is a false identicard and she’s in. I don’t think John has run around showing everyone pictures of his late wife, now has he?

Also, I still maintain the throwaway line that Ivanova used in a previous episode (sorry, my brain hurts right now – I’m tempted to say “Divided Loyalties”) when Sheridan comes in and finds her sitting in his room “You should change your password more often” has some validity!

Subj: Sheridan’s Dream (1)
Date: 96-09-10 02:07:02 EDT
From: TheLadyT
Posted on: America Online

Whoops. My friend also suggested I post this too. I put it in the Ask JMS #10 folder as well.

The Lady T

JMS,

While going through some old tapes, much to my delight, I discovered I had All Alone In The Night on tape. What a find–an opportunity to study John’s dream again! I also (finally) discovered The Lurker’s Guide on the net, which helped me to study the dream more closely (I’ve only been on the net a few months). Moreover, I read in the Guide that you said the whole dream came from Kosh. Based on that statement, here’s the dream sequence, taken from the Guide (for those few who haven’t seen it), with *my* analysis/questions in brackets:

–Sheridan is in his quarters, in uniform. The lights are out.[A good place to start–familiar surroundings.]

–Ivanova is in the quarters with him, in uniform, hair draped over her left shoulder. The door is open. She raises her fingers to her lips and says, “Shh.”[I interpret that as “I’ve got a secret.” Possibly her psi abilities?]

–Sheridan looks confused.[Understandably, I’d say.]

–Ivanova, now with a raven perched on her right shoulder, says, “Do you know who I am?”[Ivanova is not what she appears to be. Many have speculated that she’s a traitor, which I wholeheartedly reject. However, she *is* someone we don’t expect. The Raven is a Native American symbol of wisdom; it’s also a carrion bird that removes the carcasses of dead animals from the environment, thereby cutting down on the spread of disease, etc. When will we see the answer to this one?]

–Sheridan looks to his right, and finds himself in a Babylon 5 corridor. He looks up. On a catwalk, in harsh lighting, gripping the railing, is another Sheridan. He looks to his right.[This Sheridan is in a black uniform – could this be the new uniform given to him by Delenn? (I apologize if you answered this question already and I’ve missed it.) Also, what is the meaning of his expression? I get the impression of anger or disgust, or is this just the same *harsh* expression that all the characters are wearing?]

–Garibaldi, also apparently on the catwalk, is in uniform and has a dove(?) on his left shoulder. “The man in between is searching for you,” he says.[Could the man in between actually be Delenn? She is “the one who is.” Or could Kosh actually be referring to himself? The dove to me is obvious – Garibaldi is a peacemaker.]

–Ivanova, in a veil and black dress, is standing behind Sheridan, who is now wearing a turtleneck and a jacket. As he turns, we get a brief glimpse of a metal pin on the left breast of his jacket: a Psi-Corps badge. And, in fact, his jacket appears to be the uniform of a Psi-Cop, with the leather strap down the right side in front. Ivanova, still veiled, says, “You are the hand.”[This Psi Corps reference could be one of or a combination of several things: John could have latent psi abilities; Kosh could be telling John that everyone has psi abilities to a certain extent; it could have something to do with the alliance John will form with Bester; or it could be dealing with the fact that telepaths are needed to win the war with the Shadows. The *hand* reference to me refers to his being “the one who will be,” and Ivanova’s funeral garb (as some have called it) is because John will lead everyone toward death, an obvious result of war.]

–Kosh is standing behind Sheridan in the corridor; Sheridan is back in his normal uniform. Sheridan starts to turn toward him. In what seems like a simple switch of camera angles, Sheridan now appears to be sitting down in front of a backlit wall with an organic look not unlike that of the Streib ship’s interior. “Why are you here?” he asks.[The changes in scenery are just to let John know that one message has ended and a new one is to begin. The question *could* be his surprise at seeing Kosh.]

<<end part one>>

Subj: Sheridan’s Dream (2)
Date: 96-09-10 02:08:43 EDT
From: TheLadyT
Posted on: America Online

<<part two>>

–“We were never away,” Kosh answers from the corridor. “For the first time your mind is quiet enough to hear me.”[The “we” is not the royal we but a universal we–to let John know that the everything in the universe is connected. The “me” refers to Kosh and his connection to John. The *quiet mind* I believe refers to John’s exhaustion. Could this also refer to John’s latent psi abilities or the possibility that everyone has psi abilities to some extent?]

–Sheridan is back in the corridor, standing. “Why am I here?” he asks, in a tone that makes the question sound unconnected to the previous one.[I think he simply wants to know what this dream is all about.]

–“You have always been here,” answers Kosh.[Kosh is telling John that he is connected to the universe, that he has a place is what is going on and what will happen, and that he is always exactly where he’s supposed to be. However, I could be somewhat wrong. Could Kosh be telling John that his soul has been around since the beginning of the universe?]

BTW, I heard that you said that all the questions of John’s dream would be answered by the end of Season Three. If you get to this question before Walkabout is aired in the US, please just answer these questions as of WWE2; if I can’t figure out the rest of the stuff by the end of Z’ha’dum I’ll just re-ask.

I apologize for the length, but I only hooked into the internet recently and am just starting to ask questions that have plagued me from the beginning.

More to come…. :^)

With Light and Love,
The Lady T Rides On….

Subj: Re:Final Five
Date: 96-09-10 02:12:52 EDT
From: ACME BUYER
Posted on: America Online

<<w/o 10/28 Z’Ha’Dum (season finale)

Yes!! Yes!!! YES!!! Only 20 more days!

And I can’t help gloating that, thanks to satellite, I get them slightly earlier that that. >>

We in the Windy City have done better, poetically speaking.

We get Za’ha’dum on Halloween.

Al

Subj: Re:Major headache
Date: 96-09-10 02:24:32 EDT
From: Sudibelle
Posted on: America Online

Didn’t Drall say something to John about there always being the possibility of hope?

S

Subj: Re:Station security
Date: 96-09-10 02:25:14 EDT
From: Tirtzah AS
Posted on: America Online

If Morden could get into Kosh’s quarters, Anna shouldn’t have too much of a problem getting into Sheridan’s quarters.:)
my 2 cents,
Tirtzah

Subj: Re:book re Mira
Date: 96-09-10 12:52:56 EDT
From: Eiluros
Posted on: America Online

It’s called _The Balkan Express: Fragments From the Other Side of War_ by Slavenka Drakulic; the chapter is titled “An Actress Who Lost Her Homeland.” There are parts of a letter she wrote included in the chapter apparently without her consent; you can find the full text of the letter on any of the web sites dedicated to her.

Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-10 17:12:40 EDT
From: CajunFalc
Posted on: America Online

SPOILER SPACE
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.
.
I downloaded the video clip of THE KISS from the John & Delenn Page on the Internet, and all I can say it nearly melted my video screen. The look on John’s face said it all……

Subj: Re:SPOILER: Future episode
Date: 96-09-10 18:01:56 EDT
From: BPowell170
Posted on: America Online

I stand GLEEFULLY corrected :) — can’t wait for the end of September!

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-10 18:06:19 EDT
From: SLV80
Posted on: America Online

<< from what SLV found out, JMS just asked for an object that could be used to indicate her shock and they sent him a snowglobe!>>
I never said that! I saw it on another board, but I don’t remember posting anything about it here! If I seem overly upset, this is because this is about the zillionth time I have been quoted online as saying something that I never said. Of course, you may have been talking about someone else who shares my initials, in which case I will feel very stupid. Oh well.
-Lynne

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-10 18:43:22 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

..<< from what SLV found out, JMS just asked for an object that could be used to indicate her shock and they sent him a snowglobe!>>
I never said that! I saw it on another board, but I don’t remember posting anything about it here! I>>

My apologies Lynn, I did see you on another board assocated with a snowglobe discussion and knowing how sharp you are, my memory did a Gestalt and I credited you.

barrie

Subj: Re:The price
Date: 96-09-10 18:43:45 EDT
From: ShePsych
Posted on: America Online

<<
<< from what SLV found out, JMS just asked for an object that could be used to indicate her shock and they sent him a snowglobe!>>
I never said that! I saw it on another board, but I don’t remember posting anything about it here! If I seem overly upset, this is because this is about the zillionth time I have been quoted online as saying something that I never said. Of course, you may have been talking about someone else who shares my initials, in which case I will feel very stupid. Oh well.>>

I don’t know who posted the comment to which Barrie referred, but I saw the actual JMS posting. Yes, the snow globe came about because he wanted something to make a dramatic crash (and splash, as it turns out), but the props dept. presented him with three globes from which to choose. Who knows what subsconscious impulse drove him to select the lighthouse & cottage, rather than one of the others? Yeah, I know, it was probably the light against the dark symbolism, but I still like my more Freudian interpretation. That’s what’s fun (and frightening) about psychology–if someone denies something, you can just say he’s repressing and/or unaware of his subconscious motivations. ‘-D

PJC

Subj: People’s Choice
Date: 96-09-10 18:45:34 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

hey gang, B5 is up for several categories in the People’s choice awards (Sci Fi Universe)
voting is at:

http://www2.scifiu.com/scifiu/

please vote!

Bruce, Mira, Claudia, Peter, G’Kar and Walter Koenig are all canditates

Let’s see B5 get LOTS more accolades!

barrie

Subj: Re:People’s Choice
Date: 96-09-10 21:50:53 EDT
From: Luna457954
Posted on: America Online

I have sent my People’s Choice vote and I encourage everyone else to do so too. Lots of B5 nominees.
The only thing about the ballot that bothers me is that while BB is nominated (and rightfully so!) for Best Actor, Mira and Claudia are only up for Best *Supporting* Actress. While I may agree that Ivanova isn’t getting the stories recently (and I hope that will change soon), Delenn certainly has been onscreen nearly as much as Sheridan. Mira deserves a Best Actress Nomination. The fact that she was competing with Claudia bothered me a little too, and this season if she was put on Best Actress and CC on Best Supporting Actress, both would have a chance of winning! (I voted for Mira, but I wish I could have voted for both). Anyway, vote, vote, VOTE!!! We need to show everyone the great talent of B5’s Actors, producers, writer(s), tech, etc, etc,…….

–Luna

Subj: Re:Sheridan’s Dream
Date: 96-09-10 23:09:55 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Lady T:

I suspect we already know Ivanova’s secret (she’s a low-level telepath).

My guess is that the PsiCorps badge was a foreshadowing of Bester’s involvement in the events to come. However…when Bester first met Sheridan he said that he was told that he would find Sheridan sympathetic to the PsiCorps. Now that could have been because the image of Sheridan that Hague, et al were trying to project was that of a military lug, who could be easily manipulated politically, being handed a high-profile position or….?

Garibaldi’s line is still got me scratching my head. The man in between — Shadow’s middleman Morden, perhaps? — is searching for you? And he does say man, not person so that would seem to narrow down the field. Of course Kosh has been in between too, between Valen and the present day.

How about Sheridan’s question of Kosh: “Has this happened before?” And Kosh says, “Once.” What question is Kosh answering? Has what happened before? Has he been able to communicate with someone this way before or has this whole sequence of events happened before (which is what occurred to me after WWE)?

Spoilers and all, I can’t wait for this story to get moving again.

Sherry

9/11/96 10:44:23 AM Closing Log file.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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