The Shadow War

The Shadow War – Folder # 1 – America Online – Babylon 5
Subj: The shadows will take over
Date: 95-12-19 20:03:39 EDT
From: Archer C1
Posted on: America Online

The shadows will take over the Earth and manipulate the EA into an attack on the last stubborn hold out: B5. Anyone who has been watching this far should have guessed that already. WHich of course, leads me to think that is NOT what will happen…

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-19 22:14:23 EDT
From: GONE CYBER
Posted on: America Online

<<<La la something…..hmmmm…hmmmm…hm
da de da de da do……..
la la la la, la la la
lala la la….la La LA LAHHHHHHH>>>

Very inspiring!

 

Subj: Re: Macross vs Shadows
Date: 95-12-20 01:35:44 EDT
From: TanaleasD
Posted on: America Online

No need for Macross! Just send in Cmdr. Roy Fokker, squadron leader of the Skull Squadron, and baddest ace pilot in the universe! Provided he doesn’t engage the Shadows while being intoxicated (in Macross), or doesn’t walk out of the hospital before giant-size bullets are taken out of him after being wounded, he should do fine against Shadows…. Just remember… this is the man whose strikes took out miles-long battle cruisers with enough weapons to take out planets. No really. I think the planet and B44 in the future are best ideas

Subj: Re:The shadows will take ove
Date: 95-12-20 23:53:08 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

People, people, people! Don’t you realize that we (the humans) won the Shadow War? The whole B5 story has already taken place. It is merely being retold by those who survived. Sinclair, Sheridan, and Ivanova (so far) are the only people we know that survived the war. I guess you could count Londo among this group, since he provided the monologue for the pilot movie. As I have said before, you all need to go back and listen to the opening monologues for seasons 1, 2, and 3. Notice how everything is referred to in the past tense? “It WAS the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind,” “the year the Great War CAME upon us all,” “The Babylon project WAS our last, best hope for peace,” “in the year of the Shadow War, it BECAME our last, best hope for victory,” etc., etc., etc. Pay attention. The answers will reveal themselves to you.

RPillow

Subj: RE: Planet in B5 space.
Date: 95-12-20 23:56:33 EDT
From: JohnK47630
Posted on: America Online

Has everyone forgotten that the planet has the capability of the same type of energy beam that cuts ships in half just like the beam the shadow ships use.

JAKAR

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-21 09:23:10 EDT
From: RABILIN
Posted on: America Online

HEY, Yamato and friends, I got one for you, ULTRA MAN!! He’ll kick shadow ass(but! for you politicly correct).
RABILIN

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 95-12-21 09:31:56 EDT
From: RABILIN
Posted on: America Online

About Sinclair, remember that while on Babylon 4, as he saw his past self leave, he said “THAT NOTHING HAD CHANGE, EVERYTHING WAS THE SAME AS HE REMEMBERED IT!”
RABILIN

Subj: B5 vs EA
Date: 95-12-21 15:49:33 EDT
From: Ken N 63
Posted on: America Online

My take on the next events in the “Shadow War”, compiled from what JMS has posted regarding upcomming eps, is that the crew of B5 will be forced to disobey a direct order of some sort from Earth Alliance. This decision will put them in direct conflict with Nightwatch, PSI Corp and ultimately EA government. Eventually, Sheridan will have to declare B5 a non-aligned area, effectively seceding from EA. This will result in an attack from EA with possible help from the Shadows to get B5 back into EA control. At this point B4 shows up and the major characters move to this new (old) location just as B5 is overrun (we may even lose a major character at this point).

I’m not as clear on what happens next after this point. Possiblities: B5 is destroyed in the battle for control of it or by the Mimbari on the planet below. Several members of the cast will take refuge on the planet. The end of this season may see the B5 cast spread out over several different locations, involved in fighting on different fronts.

What do you think?

Ken

Subj: Re:B5 vs EA
Date: 95-12-22 00:00:44 EDT
From: HAyala3671
Posted on: America Online

Ken,
Great points, the character who should, or rather may be lost is most likley Garibaldi. If you all remember when the Centradi “Seer” was on in the second season, (or was it the first) Garibaldi was holding off an enemy advance, “This is the fight I was born for”, right before B5 (or so it seemed to be) was destroyed and everyone else got out.
As for all those who make the comments about the Yamato, Macross, Galactica, Voltron, etc,etc,etc…….., lets be real now, against those mentioned, I would have to put my money on the Shadows. I think that the Shadows are more of a “Q” caliber enemy. Any thought on this?

Subj: Re:B5 vs EA
Date: 95-12-22 02:49:45 EDT
From: STUDIO GO
Posted on: America Online

The Yamato would blow the Shadows away? Why? Because of yamatodamashii, the fighting Spirit of Yamato. In STAR BLAZERS, Gen. Krypt warns Desular, “The YAMATO is a ghost ship! You’re fighting against something you cannot possibly understand!” He was right; a few hours later Gamilion lay in ruins. Don’t forget, the YAMATO took on the entire Gamilon Navy–and won!

One tug of Wildstar’s finger on the ol’ Wave-Motion Gun trigger and it’s bye-bye, Shadows!

Bruce

Subj: Zen is the Answer
Date: 95-12-22 16:32:30 EDT
From: StPKS
Posted on: America Online

Remember that the Shadow “human” agent was able to get “his” foothold by asking people what they wanted. Therefore, the answer to having the alliance with the Shadows broken requires the reverse — Zen approach — stop all desiring.
Also realize that Harlan Ellison is consultant to this show and he makes sure that the themes and continuity hold together. I do not know how he will resolve this storyline but I trust his integrity.

Subj: Re:The shadows will take ove
Date: 95-12-23 12:38:17 EDT
From: NEXTTREK
Posted on: America Online

RPillow hit the nail squarely on the head! The monoloques are KEY. Be careful of what you THINK you know; jms takes great delight in wacking us in the head (with a heavy baseball bat) when we are not paying attention.

 

Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 95-12-24 04:31:02 EDT
From: Moagie01
Posted on: America Online

Well, believe it or not, some people do not believe in the Bible or its god. Freedom of religion is for agnostics and atheists too.

Subj: Re:…I think we’re doomed
Date: 95-12-24 16:01:53 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<Since Earth is on the Shadow’s side (proven in MOH), it’s really stupid to hope that they lose. If they win, we live, if not, we die… “No, Sheridan on B5 is the goodguy! We on Earth should lose and die so that he can let the Vorlons win!”>>

Boy, I’m glad Einstein, Fermi, and others did think this way. “Hey, we’re Germans/Italians, and even if we think what our governments are doing is wrong, we should help out because we don’t want our countries to lose.”

 

Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 95-12-24 16:03:40 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<There is no fellowship between darkness and light! Read your Bible!>>

What? Without Darkness, what is light?(and vice versa).

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 95-12-24 16:12:13 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<It is just a war, not an unoriginal documentry of WWII!! Wake up! This really ticks me off! You know what kind of respect I have for George Lucas now that I found out that Star Wars WAS just a WWII riff???>>

Songo, chill out. No one is saying that JMS is copying word for word the happenings of the world in the ’30’s. If you fail to see the similarities between the coming War on B5 and what happened in Europe before WWII, then you are being naive.

And SW was not a WWII “riff”, the formula of the movie was based on WWII movies. Look at SW and show me the exact corelations to WWII. Where’s the US? Where’s Britain? I guess the entire galaxy is France? Lay off.

B5 is a great original story, and it shares many similarities with the Biggest war in human history. Big deal. Calm the hell down and stop screaming like an idiot.

Subj: the whole story line
Date: 95-12-24 21:35:56 EDT
From: Big People
Posted on: America Online

I think the entire shadow war will make th Earth-mimbari war look like a quarl betwen two little kids. I think that after the war we will no longer see the Vorlons becuase in on of the episodes they said that they where not ready for the war.
Subj: Garibaldi
Date: 95-12-26 05:50:57 EDT
From: Highway927
Posted on: America Online

Garibaldi was never shown to actual die. Just that he was prepared to hold off the invasion.

Subj: Reimpossible to win
Date: 95-12-26 22:34:31 EDT
From: MBren58549
Posted on: America Online

you can not win the shadow wars. they know this, and that is why no matter how badly the are defeated, they will return. there is a balance of dark and light. only light fears the darkness. the darkness does not fear the light for light give it meaning and defination. the shadows are drawn to this light like a moth to a flame. the war must acurre, again and again. if the darkness wins it will cease to exist. that is lights only hope. darkness does not want to really win the battle it just wants the battle. that gives it existance. kosh knows that he will draw the darkness with his light, so he hides among the darkness of his suite.

light must strike first to wipe out the shadows before they are strong enough to sustane the batlle they need to continue to exist. first strike .

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 95-12-27 02:53:45 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Songo, chill out. No one is saying that JMS is copying word for word the happenings of the world in the ’30’s. If you fail to see the similarities between the coming War on B5 and what happened in Europe before WWII, then you are being naive.

<<
I can see the similarities, yes… But it’s also similar to EVERY war in HISTORY..
even the IRELAND one!!!!!!! (not Scotland, Ireland)

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-27 22:49:02 EDT
From: SSpellane
Posted on: America Online

I think that the forces of light will keep being driven back until Psi-Corps(spelling unsure) gets a group of Telepaths to deliver one helluva psionic blast to the Shadows and destroys them.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-28 16:52:36 EDT
From: Grimlock1
Posted on: America Online

Every one is forgetting the one undenyable trait that is somewhat underplayed on the show. Through out human history, we have rooted for the underdog, been the underdog, and either came out on top or made the enemy question weather or not the cost of victory was worth it.

P.S. Any body with UPN, look up Teknoman, he can kick a little ass.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-28 23:25:26 EDT
From: HARDLEC
Posted on: America Online

I wish to see the shadows win, for a purely selfish reason:
I want to watch them Crush the Centauri.

UP THE NARN!

Now, seriously: Why haven’t the Minbari intervened to stop the Centauri? I know human politicians are wussies, so they do what is easy, not what is right, but /minbar or Vorlon should have intervened when the Centari used Mass Drivers on the civilians.

Narn Rangers and later Narn as a race will tip the balance. There is a great debt of blood to be paid.

Light can exist without shadow. Shadow cannot exist without light.

Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 95-12-29 02:04:09 EDT
From: DCarl27273
Posted on: America Online

I think the true key to winning the shadow war will be the rangers. But only after the bulk of there forces are force to reteat to the planet at B5. There the will combine the tech there with membar earth and vorlon too fight the shadows and earth force and even the gray councle. If you remember Dealen was replaced with a member of the most untustworthly warror clans. This gave unpresident power to that clan in the gray councel.

 

DCarl27273

Subj: Re: Light vs. Darkness
Date: 95-12-29 16:07:50 EDT
From: FrogPriest
Posted on: America Online

Come on — This is starting to sound like rehashed new age Gnostism and not even that good. (Maybe Mani the prophet of light?). I don’t think it is going to go this philosophical even though we all have a shadow inside of us even when we have vanquished the enemy (Jung).

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-29 19:29:56 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Light can exist without shadow. Shadow cannot exist without light.<<
Wrongo!
You obviously have no CLUE as to how light works! Study up on your particle physics, and figure it out (you can even use the electron microscope).

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 95-12-29 20:53:31 EDT
From: Dastari
Posted on: America Online

One cannot percieve the light without darkness to compare it to.

*DASTARI*

Subj: Shadow concept
Date: 95-12-31 04:23:42 EDT
From: JGinder
Posted on: America Online

People, I think we’re over analyzing this concept a little bit, no shadows in a room with bright lights? Come on! What do you see when you look at a Shadow? a dark spider thing; a Shadow ship, a shadowy spider like vessel. The shadows are invisible when they walk with Morden but when Talia Winters saw them, they were slightly visible, but looked just like shadows on the walls. JMS might be trying to explain the inherent fear of the dark here.

Before the Shadows, no one would have cared, light, dark big deal. But when the Shadows came, they brought a terrifying and evil presence to the concept of darkness simply because they are dark and appear as shadows. Where there is darkness, the Shadows might be hiding in it, waiting for you to put your guard down just long enough for them to kill you. Thus, light is a heck of a lot more appealing. This is what made the Vorlons, who appear as beings of light, seem much more friendly to all the worlds they visited.

Yes, lots of lights in a room can eliminate any shadow but to me this sounds more like wishfull propaganda rather then a valuable combat tactic against a Shadow warship. Post any feedback, I’d be glad to read it.

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 95-12-31 13:54:38 EDT
From: FrogPriest
Posted on: America Online

This is getting way too meta-physical with a mix of physics and psychics! Whether or not one believes one thing or another does not matter. What is the likely plot resolution given the past developments and past resolution patterns? I was quite distressed when Sinclair was replaced by Sheridan (both the fictional characters and the actors that play them) until I saw how the story line covered it. It had continuity and did not hedge (“it was all a dream”, “evil twin” or “parallel universe”) on the bets. Harlan Ellison probably can take credit. So, please lets talk about possible story line based on plot developments. If you want religion or philosophy, go to those message centers

Subj: Re:All of the above
Date: 95-12-31 22:45:56 EDT
From: BMason9210
Posted on: America Online

Am I the only one who feels that we may have wondered alittle far from the subject of the Shadow War?! All the talk of the SDF or veritechs would be better in a gaming chat room, if AOL has one. Of course you all know that a Ultimax could waste all of these.

Subj: Re:B5 vs EA; Trent
Date: 96-01-01 05:14:45 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

Hey, if Trent is going to show up from the Outer Limits, why can’t the Argo, the Galactica, the Juipiter 3, in this show anything is possable.

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-01 16:53:20 EDT
From: SHedr24734
Posted on: America Online

Why is it always an evil twin? Why can’t a bad character ever have a good twin?

Subj: Re:the whole story line
Date: 96-01-01 17:46:03 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

BigPeople,

The Vorlons are not ready for the war because the humans, Minbari, and other races that truly believe in the Army of Light are not ready for the war. When we are ready, then the Vorlons will participate in the Shadow War with us. Figure that one out for yourself.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Reimpossible to win
Date: 96-01-01 17:49:46 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

MBren58549,

The Shadows ARE afraid of the Light. If you read the entry on the Shadows in the Encyclopedia Xenobioligia, you will find that it says that the Shadows are not afraid of the Vorlons, but that they are afraid of an alliance of worlds. The Shadows will probably never be completely destroyed, but they will never win a war. There will always be an alliance of worlds alligned on the side of Light to put them down.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-01 17:51:53 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Grimlock1,

Everyone is not forgetting. If you have been reading my numerous posts, you will see that I have been saying this all along.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-01 17:55:11 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

You are a very learned person, I’ll give you that. However, your need to rationalize things and your need to always answer the question “why?” will be your undoing. Not to mention the fact that you don’t believe in God.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-01 18:00:06 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

FrogPriest,

You cannot escape religion on B5, it is a blatantly religious story. Haven’t you been listening to or watching the show at all? As for your comment about certain things about Babylon 5 being meta-physical, the end result of the B5 story will deal greatly with the meta-physical. So you see, you cannot escape that either. Watch and listen more closely.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-02 03:30:25 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<Songokuten,

You are a very learned person, I’ll give you that. However, your need to rationalize things and your need to always answer the question “why?” will be your undoing. Not to mention the fact that you don’t believe in God.

RPillow>>

Opinions, opinions.

Since when is answering the question “why?” a bad thing? Would we all be better off simply sitting around and saying “It is God’s will” whenever something happens? I sure hope not, or else we wasted a whole hell of alot of time on that Rennassance thing……..

BTW, I do agree with Rpillow that Songo does tend to rationalize a bit much. But if believing or disbelieving in the Christian God(which I do not) is a characterization of success, well, I guess that explains why B5 is such a raging failure.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-02 03:38:48 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

BTW, whether the war is “won” by one side or the other is unimportant. What is evident is that the galaxy will be much changed by the conflict.

In the previous wars, the Aliiance has been strong enough to push the shadows back(supposition from the words of Kosh & Delenn). But now, according to our two conduits of information(who else here can’t wait to hear the Shadows’ side of the story?), not only is the “alliance” no where near strong enough, but there is no alliance anyway!
With people like Sheridan commanding the anti-Shadow forces, and with their “weakness”, some unorthodox and, some might say, crazed tactics are too be expected.

My question is, how many planets will pay the price for the Alliance’s desperation and the Shadow’s determination?

How many here smell a Phyrric victory in the works?

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-02 15:31:45 EDT
From: FrogPriest
Posted on: America Online

But we don’t need to talk about rehashed poorly thought out new age goobly goop!
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-03 02:34:15 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

HF Moon,

We still haven’t seen all of the races that will be in the Army of Light. Remember that in ‘The Long Twilight Struggle’ Draal said that his alliance with the Army of Light was “One of the first.” He also said that, “There will be more to come.” JMS still hasn’t addressed the issue of what happened to the other Ancients and First ones and whether or not they will be fighting in the Shadow War.

Since he felt it important enough to mention them in the story, it seems only fitting that there will be further exploration of them.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-03 15:50:06 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Not to mention the fact that you don’t believe in God.<<
Who ever said that I don’t believe in God? I just don’t believe in the “God of the Bible”.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-03 15:52:12 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>(who else here can’t wait to hear the Shadows’ side of the story?)<<
I can’t wait!

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-03 22:26:48 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

My apologies then. I would like to hear about what God you DO believe in.

RPillow

Subj: Iron-Horse?
Date: 96-01-04 04:08:25 EDT
From: Grizzzzlle
Posted on: America Online

There is the possibility that the super being Iron-horse will stop the war because he is sick of seeing people die.
Subj: Re:The advantage
Date: 96-01-04 08:53:45 EDT
From: CNeely6577
Posted on: America Online

THE SHADOWS ARE SO ANCIENT THAT THEY MAKE THE DINOSUARS LOOK LIKE A RECENT EVENT I DOUBT THAT THEY WILL LOSE COMPLETELY…IF AT ALL.
BUT THE MIMBARI ARE WORKING ON NEW TECH AND WEAPONS SO YOU NEVER REALLY KNOW.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-04 13:46:10 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

Some say they can’t wait to hear the shadow side of the story. Personally, I can wait. What’s wrong with a force of bad guys ( so to speak ) being just bad? What further explanation is necessary? It would add little to the story save (perhaps) an insight into dementia and/or selfishness. Let the shadows be wrong; let’em be evil.

Subj: Re:Iron-Horse?
Date: 96-01-04 20:22:55 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Grizzzzlle,

I assume that by ‘the super being Iron-Horse’ you are referring to the human telepath Jason Ironheart, who evolved to a higher plane in the 1st season episode “Mind War.” If this is who you are referring to, I doubt that he has the power to stop the Shadow War by himself. He is a small part of what we will soon come to know as ‘The One.’

RPillow

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-04 20:53:36 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

<<FrogPriest>>
The show is so obviously steeped in religion and philosophy I can’t see how it could be seriously discussed without reference to those subjects. Religion and Philosphy are the essence of the plot developments. There’s no point to having monks and angles appear otherwise; and no sense of a supreme Good vs. Evil struggle at work either.

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-04 21:47:46 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<The show is so obviously steeped in religion and philosophy I can’t see how it could be seriously discussed without reference to those subjects.>>
Hey, you could say the same thing about history, but that’s managed all the time in history class…

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we win
Date: 96-01-05 16:01:37 EDT
From: SmithRose1
Posted on: America Online

I think this show about the shadow is more about the human shadow, the darkness in all of us. I am a psychology studying Jung and the willingness to look at the darkness in ourselves, the shadow is one of his biggest themes. if you read Robert Bly’s book “A Little book on the Human Shadow” you’ll see what I mean. Many people believe that the darkness…in real life…the killings,hate famine are caused by all of us “folks” denying our own darkness. Interesting concept, written about by Arnie mindell at length, by Jung etc. I don’t know who will win the war on Deep Space nine, but i hope we win the war on earth.

PS I love the show , at first it seemed really shallow now my husband and i don’t miss an episode. Thursday nights is Star Trk night from 7PM on.

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-05 16:02:58 EDT
From: SmithRose1
Posted on: America Online

Ark, I loved that show Battlestar galatica and i miss it.

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-06 03:11:20 EDT
From: Ynacio
Posted on: America Online

Babylon 5 is blatantly religious? Don’t let jms hear you say that; he’s an avowed atheist.

Subj: Yin & Yang
Date: 96-01-06 03:27:58 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

“The Devil carries a rose, as an Angle carries a sword.”
B5 heavily revolves around Shadows and Light, but it must go deeper than that. A motif in the story line seems to be Grey, like the Grey Council. And this grey,peace, or balance of power, ect., has been disrupted by the appearance of the Shadows, which the forces of light are trying to protect more than anything.

Subj: Religon
Date: 96-01-06 03:34:51 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

Religon is nothing but a set of opperation to solve a problem.
What is 4+3×2?
14, 10, 18? It could be any, as in math an order of opperations is set. My theory is that each religon has its own opperations to find out the same problem, why are we here.

Subj: Living Technology
Date: 96-01-06 17:17:12 EDT
From: FrogPriest
Posted on: America Online

The most recent rerun show here had the Human agent refer to the planet where the rangers were trapped as being taken care of by Lord …… The Shadow space craft was living just like the Vorlon space craft!

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-06 19:19:37 EDT
From: Wildwhale
Posted on: America Online

plast them all to heck

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-06 20:46:13 EDT
From: HVY BARELL
Posted on: America Online

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SEND IN A SQUAD OF 5 BIO ARMORED MEN OR WOMEN .

Subj: THE SHADOW WAR
Date: 96-01-06 20:55:00 EDT
From: HVY BARELL
Posted on: America Online

SEND IN TECHNO MAN .

Subj: Re:THE SHADOW WAR
Date: 96-01-06 22:09:01 EDT
From: MNewby1
Posted on: America Online

SEND IN THE CLOWNS

Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 96-01-06 22:46:31 EDT
From: JKalapodis
Posted on: America Online

The planet the B-5 orbits will probably play a small pivotal role in the shadow war. It would be just like the writers to build our confidence in an all encompassing techno-planet and then it goes down in the first “Shadow” attack, leaving us wondering till the next season how they will cope with the loss.
I would not be surprised if the battle doesn’t go back to religious beliefs of the “Vorlon Empire” and the “Mimbari”. And did anyone else think the the “Vorlons” looked like angels. Shortly thereafter, arrives a few simple monks to B-5 to spread the good word. Just another coincidence; I think not.

Subj: Re:Shadow concept
Date: 96-01-07 00:57:38 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ynacio,

You don’t necessarily have to believe in God or religion to write a religious story.

RPillow

Subj: The Shadow War
Date: 96-01-07 01:41:14 EDT
From: MuniJohn
Posted on: America Online

The Shadow war will never get fully under way. The Empire and its new Dark Troopers will take over this sector of space and crush B5 and all of its alliances. Soon after, this galaxy will be one of many outposts for a Death Star Battle Station.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-07 02:06:33 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<< Some say they can’t wait to hear the shadow side of the story. Personally, I can wait. What’s wrong with a force of bad guys ( so to speak ) being just bad? What further explanation is necessary?>>

Maybe it’s the Scot in me, but I want to hear their story. Rarely in real life is any group of “bad guys” simply “evil”. I love B5 because it’s not one of those sappy formulaic good-guys vs. bad-guys stories, where everything is black and white. If JMS keeps the same vein of grey-ness, I’m sure we’ll eventually get to hear the Shadow’s side of the story, and I bet it won’t be quite what everyone expects.

Subj: Re:The Shadow War
Date: 96-01-07 16:01:55 EDT
From: YaxPac
Posted on: America Online

Ummm, hate to rain on your parade, but “the Empire” existed long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Don’t mix metaphors, always gets you in trouble.

Evan
==========================================================
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field.
Niels Bohr (1885-1962), Danish physicist.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-11 00:03:38 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

<<HFMoon>>
A few clarifications are in order.
1. There is a “greyness” to Babylon 5? I don’t think so. Both Captains have been outright heroic, as are the Minbari and Narns. The Centauri are collaborators, which makes them bad despite any attacks of conscience on Londo’s part. It is definitely a good vs. bad show.
2. “Rarely in real life”. B5 ain’t real life, it’s a TV show. Things can therefore be cut and dry. Besides, real life is more cut and dry than we may allow ourselves to believe.
3. We are all ultimately good or bad; we are often merely less than honest with ourselves on the point. The shadows, by all indicators to date, are bad. Despite the saying to the contrary, you can (generally) judge a book by its cover. We don’t need their side of the story. It’ll be twisted anyway.
4. If the Shadows are the good guys, or the show climaxes in a more neutral manner than it seems headed, then we B5 fans have been had, pure and simple. It would be a supreme waste of strong, ‘good’ characterizations.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-11 13:57:25 EDT
From: MarkKoldys
Posted on: America Online

<<Martycos>>
I agree with most of your points, but the Minbari…well they appear to be good now, but they did attack the Earth earlier. And the Narn appear good now, but they were considerably darker early in the show’s run. Maybe you only joined the series recently.
But you are dead right that the station commanders are pretty much outright heroic. That’s as it should be; and an outright hero really needs an outright villain (or two) to do battle with.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-11 19:08:05 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

<<MarkKoldys>>
Granted; and I did join fairly recently. Apparently those who want a bad-guys-turned-good feature, they’ve got it in the Minbari and Narn.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-12 20:35:48 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Songokuten,

My apologies then. I would like to hear about what God you DO believe in<<
A god who is more subtle than to ignite plants and speak to random sentients.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-12 20:39:50 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Some say they can’t wait to hear the shadow side of the story. Personally, I can wait. What’s wrong with a force of bad guys ( so to speak ) being just bad? What further explanation is necessary? It would add little to the story save (perhaps) an insight into dementia and/or selfishness. Let the shadows be wrong; let’em be evil. <<
I think I’d prefer to find out that the Shadows were the only GOOD race. Going around and stupidly giving people what they want so the people would leave 6hem alone, only to be killed off by the ambitious Vorlons and mis-guided, manipulated Minbari/humans. A real Twilight Zone type of a story would be a lot more fun than a retarded “They’re evil because …well they’re ugly, so they’re evil!”

Subj: Re:Iron-Horse?
Date: 96-01-12 20:42:24 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> He is a small part of what we will soon come to know as ‘The One.'<<

..There can be only one…

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-12 20:44:43 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>will win the war on Deep Space nine, but i hope we win the war on earth.

PS I love the show , at first it seemed really shallow now my husband and i don’t miss an episode. Thursday nights is Star Trk night from 7PM on.<<

…uh…

is this a joke, or are you really a shrimp-boat captain?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-12 20:52:54 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>3. We are all ultimately good or bad; we are often merely less than honest with ourselves on the point. The shadows, by all indicators to date, are bad. Despite the saying to the contrary, you can (generally) judge a book by its cover. We don’t need their side of the story. It’ll be twisted anyway.<<

Yeah, I think we got all we needed from that *neutral and not self serving* update from Kosh and Delenn…. Vorlons don’t need to twist their stories; they told us that they’re god’s servants here to teach us, and we believe it.
Vorlons are our friends. Trust the Vorlons.
Was that sarcastic enough?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-12 20:55:04 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>But you are dead right that the station commanders are pretty much outright heroic. That’s as it should be; and an outright hero really needs an outright villain (or two) to do battle with.<<
Heroic? That’s pretty darn relative! Was Washington a hero to the British? Is Saddam Houssein a madman to his followers? Is Kosh a brainwashing, telepathic weasel to Delenn?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-12 21:31:16 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Heroic? That’s pretty darn relative! Was Washington a hero to the British?>>
True heroism knows no sides. Just take a look at the Iliad; there are genuine heroes, admired as such by Homer, on both sides. And the last thing a hero does is label his enemy “evil” – remember Mark Lenard’s classic, “In a different reality, I could have called you friend.”

Subj: New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-12 23:47:26 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Songo wrote:

<< Sort of a Ranger’s guide to time? Propaganda format or will it start with “First there were ‘Shadows’ who were not evil killers and manipulators (who’d they kill anyway?) and who were very content with the way things were..”? >>

Hmmm, Brian, you just gave me a new view on the whole thing.

We’ve been told that the Shadows are older than the “Old ones”, or “ancient ones” or the animals Kosh’s ancestors crawled out of the muck as. Could it be, that as probably the oldest race in the galaxy, they developed alone? And that they were perfectly happy with the way things were?

Could it be, that when these other races started poping up, the Shadows felt a strong, almost evolutionary impulse to return things to the way they were. (Ever read “life, the Universe, and Everything.”? Remember Krikit?)

Anyone see? Could it be that all the wars the Shadows have waged againts the other races have been simply to get things back to the perfectness the galaxy knew in the begining(i.e., Shadows and space, that’s it.)?

JMS, am I treading towards the edge of the forbidden land of StoryIdeaLand?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-12 23:56:24 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Heroic? Good? Bad? What kind of relative terms are these that we’re throwing around like stones?

What war in history has been about “Good vs. Evil”?

Everyone likes to say, “WWII!!!”, and I will agree that Hitler was a badguy. Were his Panzer commanders? Were his Infantrymen?

It’s really easy to say “Shadows are evil”, because that lets us not think about Why they do what they do. Saying “Badguys” lets us just kill them. That’s what propaganda is all about, people! And one must admitt, the Vorlons are great makers of propaganda.

Now, look. I’m not saying that the Shadows are goodguys, either. Doing that is simply the same argument, backwards(Brian ;-)). It still has the same flaws. One can say the the two wars were Germany triing to save the world from British Imperialism, but that’s just more propaganda.

 

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-13 04:08:14 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

When I saw our good friend Mr. Morden talking with high-ranking Earth officials and somebody from PsiCorps, two ideas flashed through my head:

1. The Shadows are conspiring with the “bad government guys” of the story to further some sort of agenda — taking over power, for example?
2. Can the Shadows be trusted? That is, which side is Mr. Morden really working FOR when he is helping one side or the other in a many-sided conflict? Maybe the Shadows are “helping” the conspirators on Earth just so they can make them dependent, and defeat them later.

Wheels within wheels within wheels. JMS has me looking for so many layers of secret motivations and agendas that I have about ten ideas regarding what the overall story arc is even ABOUT — and who knows whether any of them are right? I LOVE IT !!!
Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-13 16:39:32 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Could it be, that when these other races started poping up, the Shadows felt a strong, almost evolutionary impulse to return things to the way they were. (Ever read “life, the Universe, and Everything.”? Remember Krikit?)

Anyone see? Could it be that all the wars the Shadows have waged againts the other races have been simply to get things back to the perfectness the galaxy knew in the begining(i.e., Shadows and space, that’s it.)?<<

I’m glad someone else saw things from a perspective other than Kosh’s. I’m so proud to be on the internet! Where else can you meet so many open-minded people (although there are a lot of folks who still chant “Angels are good, we love Vorlons unquestioningly!”). Also, I like the way you describe it– kind of makes me feel guilty for squattin’ on their land.

And I’m sorry, but I’ve never read much of Douglass Adam’s work. Just a part of HitchHiker’s Guide.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-13 16:43:28 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Now, look. I’m not saying that the Shadows are goodguys, either. Doing that is simply the same argument, backwards(Brian ;-)).<<
I’m not saying it quite like that. I’m changing the polarity of the situation in hopes that some people will understand, and meet things half way. Plus the Shadows WERE first, so if anyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt…

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-13 19:36:19 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<< Also, I like the way you describe it– kind of makes me feel guilty for squattin’ on their land.>>

Ah, but is it their land? Do they get the rights to everything, or just what they evolved on?
Do we not own our planet, even if we evolved and gained intelligence on it, simply because they were in the universe(but obviously not on our planet) sooner?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-13 19:39:09 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<>>Now, look. I’m not saying that the Shadows are goodguys, either. Doing that is simply the same argument, backwards(Brian ;-)).<<
I’m not saying it quite like that. I’m changing the polarity of the situation in hopes that some people will understand, and meet things half way. Plus the Shadows WERE first, so if anyone is entitled to the benefit of the doubt…>>

So, does being around first give them the right to kill every other intelligence? Does nothing else deserve to live because they don’t want to have neighbors?

 

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-13 23:59:59 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<What war in history has been about “Good vs. Evil”?
Everyone likes to say, “WWII!!!”, and I will agree that Hitler was a badguy. Were his Panzer commanders? Were his Infantrymen?>>

Everyone says it because it’s true. No one is arguing that all the soldiers have to pass a “litmus test” where FDR checks their goodness quotient and Hitler their evil quotient. Of course there are innocents and pawns on all sides. But the actual ideals that the war’s being fought over (yes, some actually are, in spite of what individual soldiers think) can be good or evil.
Or maybe I’m wrong and burning everybody of a different race is just a “personal choice.”

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-14 18:09:58 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Do we not own our planet, even if we evolved and gained intelligence on it, simply because they were in the universe(but obviously not on our planet) sooner<<
Sure, we’re entitled to our system, but should we be claiming rim territory or Z’Ha’Dum? Should the Vorlons and Minbari be allowed to take land that the Shadows may have first seen?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-14 18:11:41 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>So, does being around first give them the right to kill every other intelligence? Does nothing else deserve to live because they don’t want to have neighbors?<<
But how do we know that it wasn’t the Vorlons who attacked the Shadows first? Maybe the Shadows taught the First Ones their technology only to be betrayed…

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-14 21:32:57 EDT
From: Saik
Posted on: America Online

I believe that the ultimate burden of winning the war, will rest on the shoulders of the rangers and the Vorlons, since no one else seems capable of putting of a fight. Would somebody update me on the recent episodes, since I have been away for a while

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-15 01:16:02 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

Ah, but the Bible says that God works in mysterious ways……….

RPillow

Subj: Re:Iron-Horse?
Date: 96-01-15 01:19:23 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

….And there will be only One. Look at it this way, a community is a single thing, yet it is inhabited by many people. A corporation is a single entity, yet it may have many different branches that are staffed by many, many individuals. Do you see what I’m getting at? Many people (or objects, for that matter) can be classified as a single organism.

RPillow

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-15 01:26:52 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

Excuse me for pointing this out, but I never remember anyone allied with B5 saying that they wanted to claim Z’Ha’Dum as EA territory, or any other territory for that matter. As far as we know, all of the wars that have been fought against the Shadows were initiated by the Shadows. Just because they may have been the first race to evolve to sentience in the Milky Way, that doesn’t give them the right to claim all of what they knew as creation for themselves. I mean, forgive me for thinking that other species have just as much right to evolve and live in the Milky Way as the Shadows!! Just my $.02.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-15 01:27:56 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Saik,

They may not seem capable of putting up a fight right now, but wait just a little while……….

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-15 14:07:42 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<Or maybe I’m wrong and burning everybody of a different race is just a “personal choice.”>>

And so what about the people in the U.S. forces who thought Hitler and his croneys were on the right track?(BTW, I am in no way suggesting that Hitler was not as close to pure evil as a human can get.) Were they evil, too? What about the English and French who wanted to wipe out Germany after WWI, mostly because the german people were “Huns”. Were they evil? What about the Poles, who fought against Hitler with one hand, and killed Polish Jews with the other? Were they Evil?

And what about the U.S.? We dropped a bomb on two Japanese cities that annhilated them with no chance of resistance. We would not accept anything but total uncondisional surrender from the Japanese, there-by almost insuring that more Japanese had to die before the war would end. Was this evil?
What about the Germans who, when they found out about the Holocaust, were disgusted by what their government had done, but didn’t stop fighting for a greater germany against English and American imperialism and Russian Communism?
Hitler’s view of the greatest of evils was communism, and for forty years we pretty much agreed with him. But Stalin fought against Hitler, so was Russia evil?

My point is, it can be really easy to simply say “the enemy is evil!” in order to justify killing them. Are we to say that the Shadows, as a race, are evil, and therefor should be exterminated, on the word of the Vorlons, from whose space no ship has ever returned and have never been open at all, and half of the Minbari, who because of a diplomatic mistake sought the deaths of every human being just a decade ago?

like I said, them Vorlons sure are masters at porpaganda. What i’m trying to say is “THINK before you condemm!”

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-15 14:12:10 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<Sure, we’re entitled to our system, but should we be claiming rim territory or Z’Ha’Dum? Should the Vorlons and Minbari be allowed to take land that the Shadows may have first seen?>>

Should the Shadows? They sure are going about reclaiming lost territory in a diplomatic manner, aren’t they? It’s not like they’ve come up to anybody and say, “ahem, excuse me? But we owned this land first. If it weren’t for the evil Vorlon and their incessant drive to exterminate our peaceful race, we’d still be here. Please help us against their tyrranny.”

‘Course, I still want to hear their side of the story before I make up my mind.

Subj: R Shadows Evil
Date: 96-01-15 17:55:30 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

We all ready know the shadows aren’t pure evil. Remember that they landed on the Narn home world and paid little attention to the Narn. They must see spacefaring races as some sort of threat, while the ignore races with out spaceflight capability.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-15 19:04:58 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Songokuten,

Ah, but the Bible says that God works in mysterious ways……….<<

And we all know how reliable the bible is… >:-p

‘Never argue about sports with someone who likes books.’

Subj: Re:Iron-Horse?
Date: 96-01-15 19:06:29 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>….And there will be only One. Look at it this way, a community is a single thing, yet it is inhabited by many people. A corporation is a single entity, yet it may have many different branches that are staffed by many, many individuals. Do you see what I’m getting at? Many people (or objects, for that matter) can be classified as a single organism.<<
Yep.
Besides, if you count it cell by cell…. well, it will be a pretty gruesome task at best.

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-15 19:10:30 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>As far as we know, all of the wars that have been fought against the Shadows were initiated by the Shadows. Just because they may have been the first race to evolve to sentience in the Milky Way, that doesn’t give them the right to claim all of what they knew as creation for themselves. I mean, forgive me for thinking that other species have just as much right to evolve and live in the Milky Way as the Shadows!! Just my $.02.<<

As you say, it is as far as we know… Or is it? Do we know that it wasn’t the Vorlons who began every war? Do we know that Kosh is telling even one word of truth?

And we have the right to be here, but do we have the right to kill off the Shadows because the SECOND oldest species tells us to? Why was the Iccarus at Z’Ha’Dum in the first place? Would we want a bunch of aliens to show up and give us away if we were at war with the Vorlons?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-15 22:40:41 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<My point is, it can be really easy to simply say “the enemy is evil!” in order to justify killing them.>>
Will you kindly get off this “You believe some things are evil you intolerant SOB” kick. All I said was that the ideals that wars are fought over can be good or evil. And I stand by that. Yes, the decisions made by Clemenceau after WWI were evil, and motivated by evil. Not everything in life is gray area.
I still don’t understand the crowd who want to reject the whole concept of absolute moral judgments on things except when it happens to strike something that personally offends them. (Kinda like the media’s credo, “You can’t comdemn anybody’s act as wrong except Republicans and accused sexual harrassers.”) Let’s at least be consistent.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-16 15:04:13 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

>>And we all know how reliable the Bible is….<<

Do we now? Some of us know more about its reliability than others. Despite our OVERWHELMINGLY different views, I must say that I like you Songo. You are one person that I genuinely enjoy engaging in “intellectual sparring” with.

RPillow

PS: I LOVE books. :-)

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-16 15:10:03 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

Like I said, “As far as we know.” We don’t know what the Shadows have to say because they never speak to anyone but Morden, the Psi Corps, and other Shadow Men (and possibly Sheridan’s wife). According to the Encyclopedia Xenobiologica and the Grid Epsilon Log, the Icarus was at Z’Ha’Dum to initiate archaeological digs. It was under the direction of prominent xenoarchaelogist Dr. Chang. When the Icarus landed on Z’Ha’Dum the Shadows weren’t currently engaged in a war with the Vorlons, they were “hibernating.” Whether any of this holds any truth remains to be seen, but it’s all we have to go on for now.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-17 02:13:10 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<I still don’t understand the crowd who want to reject the whole concept of absolute moral judgments on things except when it happens to strike something that personally offends them. (Kinda like the media’s credo, “You can’t comdemn anybody’s act as wrong except Republicans and accused sexual harrassers.”) Let’s at least be consistent.>>

Listen, i’m not going after you in particular. I totally agree that motivations can be either good or evil. What we don’t agree on is this. What is “Good and evil” to the Vorlons? To the Shadows? Is there any way for us to know?

To Many of the Germans of WWII, the “Evil” was Russian Communism, which sought to destroy social order and make everyone the slaves of a minority(with the guns), and British-U.S.-French imperialism, which sought to make Germany a vassal state after WWI.

How are we to know that to the Shadows, who seemingly developed Alone, the evil isn’t those who would pollute the Galaxy with their cities and colonies and incessant chattering?

How do you judge an alien species by our standards of good and evil?

My question to you(and I mean everyone who might be content to say, with the evidence we have now), are the Shadows evil? Should they be destroyed?

 
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-17 02:14:26 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<I still don’t understand the crowd who want to reject the whole concept of absolute moral judgments on things except when it happens to strike something that personally offends them.>>

And also, my point is that while absolute moral judgements are very often the rule with individuals, they rarely work when applied to a group.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-17 22:03:14 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Hey, I never said I was on the side of the Vorlons. I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. And I don’t think the Shadows are necessarily the “bad guys”. It’ll be interesting to here their side.
But there are real standards at work here. So far the Shadows have done a great deal more evil deeds than the Vorlons. The Vorlons have manipulated and kept back important information (maybe even to our benefit). The Shadows have wiped out worlds, killed sentient people (don’t care if we ARE bugs to them, they know we’re sentient). By any standard of good and evil that matters, the evidence to date is pretty clear cut. I’m all for some turn of events which will cause us to think twice (like the Shadows are impulsive but the Vorlons are the REAL long term planners), but there’s no evidence TO DATE that the shadows are remotely altruistic (a necessary ingredient to any system of morality), and the Vorlons at least claim to be and haven’t been found to be lying yet.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-18 00:19:59 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Mythophile!! What are you doing!! By these things you are saying, it seems that you…. and I….. seem to…. mostly…sorta…kinda…Agree!

Goodness gracious. Don’t you hate it when that happens?

😉

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-18 20:46:09 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Actually, I do. It ruins a perfectly good argument.
(No it doesn’t)
Yes it does!
(No it doesn’t)
Yes, it…

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-19 13:53:20 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

About all this good vs. evil stuff: we seem to forget that good is good and evil evil regardless of perspective. It doesn’t really matter if the Communists thought they were good if they were in fact bad; what the Shadows think they are doesn’t matter nearly so much as what they actually are.
We must step outside ourselves and try to be as objective as we can. By all indicators, the Shadows are evil.
I say, again, let ’em stay evil.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-19 20:57:12 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

<<About all this good vs. evil stuff: we seem to forget that good is good and evil evil regardless of perspective.>>

According to who? Christians? Is that not simply a perspective? Should we condemm an entire species billions of years old who’s government has done some easily identifiable injustices to numerous other governments, simply because they do not obey the laws set down in a book written a mere two thousand years ago?

How, exactly, are “good” and “evil” outside of perspective? If we are as objective as you wish, then can there be any “good” and “evil” in terms of group morals?

I will agree that individuals can be judged in terms of good and evil, but what group can be? With no exceptions?

And besides all this, there is the simple fact that the Shadows are the most alien alien we’ve met so far on B5. JMS is a tricy guy, and could just show us how wrong we might be by putting Human values ona n alien species.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-19 22:10:52 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Do we now? Some of us know more about its reliability than others. Despite our OVERWHELMINGLY different views, I must say that I like you Songo. You are one person that I genuinely enjoy engaging in “intellectual sparring” with.

RPillow<<

Exactly: everything depends on your views or perspective. From one side of the spectrum, “the Bible is God’s word,” from the other, the bible makes a dandy coaster. Delenn says Kosh is right. That only makes his testimony seem even more rediculous to an impartial observer. The Vorlon looks like an angel, and the only one to back him up is a religious fanatic. That adds loads to one’s credibility… Like hearing that the product with the subliminal adds looks like a ‘must-buy’.

>>PS: I LOVE books. :-)<<
Good, me too.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-19 22:15:36 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>My question to you(and I mean everyone who might be content to say, with the evidence we have now), are the Shadows evil? Should they be destroyed?<<
Not at all.
They should be watched closely, and the Vorlons should be, too. We should be as prepared as we could be to fight, but they have not given us *one* reason to start a war with them. Well, not one besides siding with a politician.

Has anyone read Clark’s Law yet?
I loved the first Morgan Clark quote.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-01-19 22:29:14 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> The Shadows have wiped out worlds, killed sentient people (don’t care if we ARE bugs to them, they know we’re sentient). <<
I don’t remember the Shadows EVER destroying a world… that was the Centauri. The Shadows fought a fleet, because their ally had asked them to. Kind of like the way we helped Britain during both World Wars. We hardly needed an excuse to declare war, and we were already aiding the British from early on.
Besides, the Shadows have treated humans kindly. They’ve made negotiations with us and the Centauri. They might just find it easier to kill Narn ships because Narns are religious(i.e. manipulated constantly by Vorlons. G’Lann and G’Quan, seemed to be awfully talkative about the Shadows) and because they would prefer the Centauri to the Narn, technologically. The Minbari are too close to the Vorlons to even attempt any dealings (except the warrior cast?). The only other Major ally that the Shadows could have was us. Are they evil because they came to our corrupt government in secret? Throughout history, nations have had secret alliances; why shouldn’t they keep it quiet now?
The only humans the Shadows killed were Raiders, a Starfury pilot who crashed into a phasing Shadow ship, and Keffer. Keffer had tried to record the Shadows, which would (and did) give them away. If Kosh had not already known, then Keffer’s tape certainly would have tipped him off. The Shadows had no choice.
So are they really so evil to us? They seem pretty altruistic in letting the Cortez live in Distant Star.

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-01-20 01:09:38 EDT
From: SHedr24734
Posted on: America Online

Why was the Icarus there? How did they discover that there was something on Z’Ha’Dum? Did they just float thru the cosmos- “hey, there’s a planet, let’s see if it has some broken pots?”

Of course not. SOMEBODY had landed there before the Icarus, found something, and reported it. Maybe it was they who accidentally or otherwise awoke the Shadows.

Based on what we’ve seen, I find it hard to believe that the Icarus started the ball rolling. I suspect the Shadows may have been on their way anyway, and the Icarus sped up their timetable.

Subj: When Shadows Awoke
Date: 96-01-20 03:29:26 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

It seems to me entirely unclear whether the Icarus woke up all the Shadows, or only the ones on Za’ha’Dum. The reason I mention this is based on the backstory presented in the comic books — the one where Garibaldi and Sinclair stumbled on a secret PsiCorps installation on Mars where they were doing SOMETHING to people with a big machine. This story took place several years ago, and yet there were Shadow men barely visible in the secret installation. Admittedly, they weren’t drawn clearly, but the implication seemed to be that it was the same shapes that we see with Mr. Morden and on Za’ha’Dum. Now, I’m not TOO certain on HOW MANY years ago this is supposed to be, but I get the impression that it was some time BEFORE the Icarus reached Za’ha’Dum — so it seems that the Shadows were already mucking about in human space before the little “archaeology” expedition arrived.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-20 21:17:30 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<I will agree that individuals can be judged in terms of good and evil, but what group can be? With no exceptions?>>
This is rapidly turning into a war of semantics (thus a real yawner). HF seems to be saying that “groups” can’t be innately good and evil, which is certainly true. (If it comes to that, individuals can’t be purely good or evil either – but they can make individual good and evil choices) Others, such as myself, are saying that groups can (by virtue of the corporate decisions they make) engage in actions or a general course of action which is good or evil. (Everybody who could’ve stopped Hitler but didn’t was a party to the corporate evil done by Germany, but very few of those individuals actually committed a terribly evil act)
I agree that groups can’t be good or evil. I’d even say the same of individuals. But both can be “better” or “worse” than their peers by virtue of the deeds they do and goals they’ve set.
But if, as I’ve said elsewhere, you want to call what some people do evil and yet insist that there’s no such thing as objective good and evil, that seems to me to be just nonsense, pure and simple. All that’s really saying is that what Hitler or whoever did just doesn’t happen to suit your personal fancy, and that if it’s fine with someone else, that’s just as valid a way to look at it.

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-25 18:39:26 EDT
From: Robert3089
Posted on: America Online

If they are so over-powering, why have they not yet conquered the Universe. They work in the shadows because they have some great weakness which they must hide from others. Weapons will not be the key to destruction of these creatures, but knowledge of their history!
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-25 18:46:28 EDT
From: Robert3089
Posted on: America Online

Remember that shadow is absence of light! The VORLONS are attempting to bring light into this galaxy. Light
may not be merely a physical entity, but a metaphysical condition. The Shadows always work indirectly, almost
requiring conflict to survive!

Elimination of the conflict between the warring factions in this Galaxy will be the key to defeating them!
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-25 23:01:58 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

<<HF Moon>>
Good and Evil are concepts outside of Christianity. It is interesting that you immediately attacked Christianity as the source of Good v. Evil; it kind of implies an unwillingness to own up to obligations, by putting down what many apparently feel is the supreme source of obligation. Let’s live up to our obligations: let’s destroy the Shadows. It isn’t merely the Christian thing. It’s the correct secular thing also.

Subj: Shadow V. Volrlon
Date: 96-01-26 01:59:03 EDT
From: MRyan233
Posted on: America Online

Who is really the “Good Guy”. The shadows fight their Enemies to the death, but they didnt bother the Narn when they occupied their world. On the other hand, The Vorlon tampered with the histories and growth of countless worlds. How many died in the name of Religion? (Is it a fake one at that?)

JMHO

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-26 18:02:46 EDT
From: KUPIE1948
Posted on: America Online

There is no hope in defeating the shadows they have been gathering their forces slowly which means that they probably have thousands and thousands of ships ready to kick major butt and enslave or destroy all aliens out there. Sorry to be so gloomy but hey its the shadows were talking about. If anyone reads this who has anything to do with B5 then i have a suggestion for the shadows past if you ever want to reveal that. Play Starcontrol 2 there is a race called the Koar-ah who do the same thing as the shadows and have a really cool past.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-26 22:12:39 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Okay. I’ve worked myself into a wall, and I conceede. Perhaps good and evil can be defined by absolute terms. But I still say that we have little evidence besides what the “ever trustworthy” Kosh and Deleen have given us.

 
Heck, I just hope that the Shadows don’t turn out to be the “all-around Bad Guys” that would appear in an old Trek episode. That would be disappointing.

Subj: Shadows and PSI
Date: 96-01-27 01:29:24 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

There has been a lot of speculation on whether the Shadows had anything to do with “creating” the PSI capabilities in humans. One thing that I find interesting is that we have had mention in the series of only one inhabited planet where the Shadows had a base for any length of time — the Narn homeworld. And the Narns have NO TELEPATHS. Now, why is that, I wonder?

Is there in fact no connection between the Shadows and the telepaths? Or were the telepaths allied so closely with the Shadows that the Narns killed all the telepaths, then later on forgot that they had done so?
Subj: Re:Shadows and PSI
Date: 96-01-27 03:44:22 EDT
From: Lidnafay
Posted on: America Online

Or are the Narns, since they have been defeated, perhaps somehow linked with the shadows???
Go figure. Questions Questions and more Questions!

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-27 16:35:29 EDT
From: JSmith4287
Posted on: America Online

I’m not exactly sure what the shadows are, an alien race or a pure representation of evil. G’kar said on one episode that when his race was still pretty much in it’s infancy the shadows used his home planet as some sort of a base. If this was so long ago how can we be sure that the Shadows are still on the same evolutionary scale as the other races. Telepathy has only recently occured in the terran races, how do we know that the Shadow’s mind has not developed so much from evolution that they couldn’t destroy something with a thought. No I think that the Shadows are a pure representation of evil and that there must always be a cosmic balance where no side ever wins.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-27 17:48:13 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> But I still say that we have little evidence besides what the “ever trustworthy” Kosh and Deleen have given us.<<

“{twinkle, twinkle, toil and trouble} ‘No new taxes.'”

 
>>Heck, I just hope that the Shadows don’t turn out to be the “all-around Bad Guys” that would appear in an old Trek episode. That would be disappointing.<<
That’s something that DS9 would have with their rip off of the Shadows.
Can you imagine some stupid, plain-evil dominion or somethinbg in ST?
–oh, wait!

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-27 17:56:35 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> No I think that the Shadows are a pure representation of evil and that there must always be a cosmic balance where no side ever wins.<<
No offense, but..
Do you REALLY want something so blandly, stupidly boring?????????

Just go watch the First Borg episodes if you want SHALLOW characters.
I would prefer that the Shadows be given as much written respect as any other alien. To just have the stereotypical evil monster went out in the seventies, and it is an insult to any writer to say that you hope they stay with the ‘tried and true, used and used and used formula of good vs evil. That way, the lowest common denominator can figure out who is good and who is bad. Even the people who would be confused between Sinclair and Sheridan can write this, so it’ll boost their morale, and we’ll get $ratings$!”
Come on, go watch a cartoon if you want pure moral extremes. I’d rather have mystery, story, plot intrigue, moral dilemmas, real brain twisters, etc., than have the “angel goodguy boyscout vs. the dark evil demon”.
THAT’s pathetic!

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-27 20:17:10 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Heck, I just hope that the Shadows don’t turn out to be the “all-around Bad Guys” that would appear in an old Trek episode. That would be disappointing.>>
True, but almost as disappointing would be the complete reverse, with the Vorlons as the real villains and the Shadows as the ones who meant to help us in the long run. (Besides, it’d be credulity-straining and VERY Machiavellian)

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-27 20:20:24 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<That’s something that DS9 would have with their rip off of the Shadows.
Can you imagine some stupid, plain-evil dominion or somethinbg in ST?>>
Actually, bleedingheart Trek has the reverse problem. The Jem’ha’dar, worst villains, most relentless enemies of all time, got all soft and gooey in that awful “Cure us Julian” episode. Trek can’t just keep a villain BAD for very long. Which would be GREAT if the “gray area” they created were convincing, like B5 and not just a cheap exercise in “feel for the enemy.”

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-01-28 01:59:36 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Robert3089,

The Shadows are afraid of an alliance of races. Have you ever heard the old saying that darkness is afraid of light. This is why the forces that oppose them have named themselves the Army of Light. If the Shadows were able to figure out a way to eliminate all of the lesser races one at a time, then they might have a chance of conquering the galaxy. However, the Shadows do not know that we know about them. They still think that the only races that have knowledge of their existence are the Vorlons, the Narns, the Minbari, and the Ancients and First Ones (who are out beyond the veil, luckily for the Shadows). The Shadows think that when they attack, the younger races will be caught totally by surprise. Boy are they in for a surprise!!

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-01-28 02:03:17 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>><<Heck, I just hope that the Shadows don’t turn out to be the “all-around Bad Guys” that would appear in an old Trek episode. That would be disappointing.>>
True, but almost as disappointing would be the complete reverse, with the Vorlons as the real villains and the Shadows as the ones who meant to help us in the long run. (Besides, it’d be credulity-straining and VERY Machiavellian)<<

Oh I so totally agree.

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-28 02:04:28 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

KUPIE1948,

The Shadows have no idea of how many races currently know of their existence. The Shadows may be nigh invincible, but they cannot hope to defeat all of the races that will be allied on the side of the Army of Light. When we have a fleet of White Stars, the Shadows will have quite a formidable weapon to deal with. Not to mention that we haven’t even seen any of the Ancients or First Ones yet (but you can bet that some of them will be back for the Shadow War). You have to remember that although the Shadows have been around longer than any other race, they have never won a war. There has always been an alliance of worlds allied on the side of light to put them down.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-28 23:59:11 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

Supreme Good v. Supreme Evil is and always will be the best type of drama. What’s the main reason Star Wars was so good? Because Good triumphed over Evil! It would be <<boring>> for the Shadows to be pure Evil? Pish-tosh. It would be great. Amorphous things are the least entertaining, the least intriging, the least satisfying. That’s why Disney’s so popular after all these years while lesser, darker talents are so much more obscure. Humanity is the story of Good v. Evil. Our art, even in relatively mundane forms such a television shows, has to reflect this if it is to have any positive quality at all.

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-29 02:09:05 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<That’s why Disney’s so popular after all these years while lesser, darker talents are so much more obscure.>>
I always thought it was because they were so good at plagiarizing other people’s stories and throwing in singing, dancing cute things.

Subj: my thoughts
Date: 96-01-29 02:24:54 EDT
From: Stone 76
Posted on: America Online

I have a couple of thoughts to encourage responses.
First of all, I believe the Shadows are a highly evolved race which resemble the vorlon’s space craft than humanoid. That is why they need humanoid operatives.
Secondly I think the key to the Shadow war is going to be the Technomages. With their interface abilities and the detail orinented minds of Brother Theo and his brethern, they will be a powerful ally.
Reponses?
Stone

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-30 20:26:49 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>><<That’s why Disney’s so popular after all these years while lesser, darker talents are so much more obscure.>>
I always thought it was because they were so good at plagiarizing other people’s stories and throwing in singing, dancing cute things.<<

To resort to the uncouth venacular of my untiddy youth, There it is!

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-30 23:24:29 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

Hey, most things ultimately have been plagarized: Bob Hope said there’s really only 50 jokes in all of history. Each “new” one is a merely variation of something else. Same with stories.
And that’s why B5’s good v. evil scenario is so good. It’s an existing idea done on a remarkably competent level.
So Disney changed the Little Mermaid, et al. Andersen’s dead anyway, and there is such a thing as public domain.

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-01-31 00:43:41 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

Most things have been plagiarized, but if I created a character named “Mikkey Maus” and drew him really close to someone we all know, the kind, compassionate, loving oh-so-superior people at Disney would take me for everything I have (they’ve done it before, to schoolchildren, no less.)
I agree that the stuff Disney always plagiarizes is public domain (they may be lousy storytellers but they’re great lawyers), but IMHO there is an ethical issue here… especially since Disney’s grown rich and famous on those “classic” works while their own stuff is usually abysmal. I also think their habit of seriously dumbing down the tales for kids is highly insulting to their audience – why pander with singing crabs and obnoxious genies when you could tell a very classic story with class?
Disney is definitely working with the Shadows. Psi-corp is definitely a subsidiary of Disney. (And probably everything else is too by then).

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-02-01 23:51:54 EDT
From: Martycos
Posted on: America Online

I’m sure this doesn’t belong here, but so it goes.
Disney’s highly entertaining; I see nothing insulting about their work; and Mickey Mouse isn’t public domain (yet). Everyone’s got the right to make money on their own work, even if it’s a variation of something earlier. Chill: take Disney for what it offers: superior entertainment than most more “realistic” or “artistic” features.
I’ll say no more here: I know it’s B5. Destroy the Shadows!

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-02-02 11:26:52 EDT
From: Grimlock1
Posted on: America Online

I happen to think the Shadows will steam-roll thier way across the galaxy. Meeting nominal resistance, but overcoming it with relative ease(except Israel, they are still getting a headache from that region). Then when the go to destroy some little backwater M-Class planet called “Airis”(I’m not sure how to spell it but it is pronounced as the female form of the noun “heir” or “heiress”), they run into a snag… Well actually, five farely large snags that turn into one MAJOR snag.

If you have no idea of what I am talking about, never. If you do, just chuckle. If you think you do but aren’t sure E-mail me for confirmation.

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-02-02 22:57:59 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>I happen to think the Shadows will steam-roll thier way across the galaxy. Meeting nominal resistance, but overcoming it with relative ease(except Israel, they are still getting a headache from that region). Then when the go to destroy some little backwater M-Class planet called “Airis”(I’m not sure how to spell it but it is pronounced as the female form of the noun “heir” or “heiress”), they run into a snag… Well actually, five farely large snags that turn into one MAJOR snag.

If you have no idea of what I am talking about, never. If you do, just chuckle. If you think you do but aren’t sure E-mail me for confirmation.<<

Damn those lions! You know you’re gone when they start to connect.

And we all thought the Shadows feared VORLONS!

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-02-03 12:34:40 EDT
From: VErnKirak
Posted on: America Online

<<<<<<<>>I happen to think the Shadows will steam-roll thier way across the galaxy. Meeting nominal resistance, but overcoming it with relative ease(except Israel, they are still getting a headache from that region). Then when the go to destroy some little backwater M-Class planet called “Airis”(I’m not sure how to spell it but it is pronounced as the female form of the noun “heir” or “heiress”), they run into a snag… Well actually, five farely large snags that turn into one MAJOR snag.

If you have no idea of what I am talking about, never. If you do, just chuckle. If you think you do but aren’t sure E-mail me for confirmation.<<

Damn those lions! You know you’re gone when they start to connect.>>>>>>>

It’s been a while but If I’m right are you not Referring to Voltron?

Subj: Re:Shadows are powerful
Date: 96-02-03 14:36:12 EDT
From: Grimlock1
Posted on: America Online

Yup.

At about 5:30, Galactic Standard Time

Kieth: Okay, team next stop sect 32.

Lance: Aw’ man. We’ve already taken out 27 Shadow battlecruisers today! Can we go home now?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-02-03 22:36:46 EDT
From: JinsDad
Posted on: America Online

I must agree with Mingoloop that the Vorlons are the key to victory over the shadows. The are a very advanced race, from more that just a tech. standpoint. I found it fasinating when Cosh came out of his encounter suit and each person saw him as a person/being form their own mythology/religion. But there is no doubt that however the outcome of this battle with the forces of darkness, it will not be the last.

Subj: My take on the Shadow War
Date: 96-02-07 12:43:42 EDT
From: QUIGLEYPUB
Posted on: America Online

1. I think that Vorlons & other “Old Ones” CAN’T actively participate in the coming Shadow War…maybe advanced ethics, etc. Also the Mimbari will find it difficult to do what needs to be done…i.e. genocide. I think that “Starkiller” Sheridan is being prepped to push the button on the Shadows.
2. The Narn/Centauri plot line will get some resolution with Londo becoming the galactic traitor (in a self tortured way), and that G’Kar will get to face off with him. (Anyone else notice how GOOD an actor Katsulanus (sp.?) is?)
3. The PsiCorps/Nightwatch/assassination conspiracy/Shadow involvement plot line will probably resolve itself in a military coup, with PsiCorps being restructered & nicefied.
More another time.

Subj: End of the Shadows
Date: 96-02-07 23:30:23 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

Now that I think more about it(especially after that whole Airis thing), I get the feeling that the SHadows WILL overcome every adversary in their way(including thos #@*%# lions). That is, untill they come upon a lone ship carrying twenty oddly-shaped craft which combine ect. ect…..

Subj: Re:My take on the Shadow War
Date: 96-02-07 23:52:53 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< I think that Vorlons & other “Old Ones” CAN’T actively participate in the coming Shadow War>>
I used to think this, but as the Shadows and other Old Ones are increasingly put on a par with one another, and as it’s emphasized that the Old Ones used to fight them all the time, what’s the big deal now? It’s not as if the Old Ones can’t use their power to “interfere in the destiny of the younger races” – not if the problem comes not from a matter internal to those young races but from the Oldest Ones of all.
The prevailing view seems to be that the Oldies think, “It’s your problem now – we can’t fight them forever.” But as it seems likely that the Old Races are the ones who got the Shadows angry in the first place, this seems like a very selfish attitude on their parts. Like punching a psychopath in the face and then leaving him alone in a room with a bunch of puppies.

Subj: Re:My take on the Shadow War
Date: 96-02-08 12:34:52 EDT
From: QUIGLEYPUB
Posted on: America Online

I sort of agree…but I think that in a literary way, leaving the Vorlons out of the active denoument will create a more anthropomorphic victory.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-02-09 00:23:18 EDT
From: Franger999
Posted on: America Online

The main goal of the Shadows (being the oldest race and pure evil) is to bring back Chaos!! The one true force that destroys all. the key to winning the war is for the Light forces to just join together . once this happens then the one battle that will decide the winner will be fought in a one hour episode that will cause a very apparent cascade of destruction of the Shadows!!! There leader and his “POWER” will be destroyed by a combined team of the good guys. End of story. Back to the everyday duties of cargo, docking ,paying rent

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-02-09 00:24:41 EDT
From: Franger999
Posted on: America Online

Sorry about that I am new at the keyboard!!!

Subj: Re:New Shadow Thought
Date: 96-02-09 00:29:02 EDT
From: Franger999
Posted on: America Online

SHUCKS I did it agian!!! All that aside. life will go back to normal. If there is such a thing.

franger999

the “F” is for fiction, Frodo ,and Frankly “Fun”. Readya

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-02-11 07:35:41 EDT
From: PageSchool
Posted on: America Online

Well Thad you might be right that they heard the Yamato explode in Tokyo Bay. However it took some 16 bombs and 19 torpedoes to sink the yamato. While the age of the battleship was over by world war 2, the fact remains that the Yamato and the Musashi took an un-godly amount of punishment before going to the bottom. Facts are facts to say you laughed at the way it exploded is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Read your military history before you spout off and sound like an uneducated idiot.

read before you write
pat

Subj: Re:End of the Shadows
Date: 96-02-13 20:43:14 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Now that I think more about it(especially after that whole Airis thing), I get the feeling that the SHadows WILL overcome every adversary in their way(including thos #@*%# lions). That is, untill they come upon a lone ship carrying twenty oddly-shaped craft which combine ect. ect…..<<

Is that the SDF2 or the Yamato? Maybe the First-One’s name was Optimus Prime? Veritech?
And nothing could stop the Shadows like Goku could have (before he passed away for the third time)!

Subj: Re:End of the Shadows
Date: 96-02-13 22:12:48 EDT
From: MNSTTJZZ
Posted on: America Online

The shadows are the best! Great drama thanks to them!

-Tom

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-02-13 22:20:56 EDT
From: SHedr24734
Posted on: America Online

What is that annoying little whispering sound I hear every time Newt Gingrich speaks?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-02-14 22:14:56 EDT
From: AndrG
Posted on: America Online

That was just plain ol’ childish….

Subj: Vorlons?
Date: 96-02-16 16:20:08 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

Mebbe the vorlons AIN’T the doods inna environment suits…..mebbe they’re the SHIPS.

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-17 15:30:21 EDT
From: Prt Omega
Posted on: America Online

Although the Alliance will win the SW (Duh!), it would be interesting to to consider a univerese where all was ruled by the Shadows. What are your ideas? What would happen if The Mebari/Vorlon Alliance lost? Post your thoughts here! I am all ears! If you really wanna’ talk E-Mail PrtOmega!

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-17 23:34:28 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Although the Alliance will win the SW (Duh!)>>
Actually, I don’t see where this follows. All we know for sure is that there’s not much room for a direct sequel left at the end, and the rumor that Michael O’Hare supposedly cried when he read the end.

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-18 13:10:33 EDT
From: ZAXPAX
Posted on: America Online

I think the old ones will think of a way outta this war, but, giving the new beings the technology
to defeat the shadows will be hard to give up. Also, as I’ve noticed, delagates from the shadows
are going around trying to turn everyone against one another and noone is communicating this.
The only ones who seem to know what is going on are the people on B5 and they don’t seem to
be telling enough of the people in power about it. Too bad no one on Earth is watching. The Phy-core is too heady to pay attention.

Subj: Re:The advantage BILLDO
Date: 96-02-18 15:57:37 EDT
From: GerryDo
Posted on: America Online

I AGREE; EXCEPT THE SHADOWS WILL NOT BE WIPED OUT, THEY WILL RETEAT AGAIN AND SAVE THEMSELVES FOR ANOTHER DAY.

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-19 20:22:52 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

What makes you so certain that B5 will fight AGAINST the Shadows in the Shadow War?

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-20 15:13:23 EDT
From: Miles1005
Posted on: America Online

If you want to win the war, all you have to do is have Geordi Laforge make friends with the Shadows. Just look what his friendship did to the Borg! Better yet, since the Shadows use organic tech, just have Nelix make them cheese!

Jim

Subj: Re:Vorlons?
Date: 96-02-20 17:09:22 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Predator Ji,

Nah, it’s pretty unlikely that the Vorlons are the ships, although there is a very good chance that the ships are a part of them.

RPillow

Subj: Re: Losing the Shadow War?
Date: 96-02-20 17:12:34 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

JVibber writes,

<<What makes you so sure that B5 will fight AGAINST the Shadows in the Shadow War?>>

One word: “SURVIVAL”

If they want to survive to walk among the stars like giants, they’ll fight the Shadows.

RPillow

Subj: Beyond the Rim
Date: 96-02-20 17:15:42 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Has anyone wondered WHY the other First Ones left the Milky Way after the last Great War? Perhaps they have made friends with beings from other galaxies to help fight the Shadows in the upcoming war. The Shadows went beyond the Rim for unknown reasons after their most recent defeat and they returned to Z’ha’Dum to start another war in our galaxy, so it’s very possible that the First Ones may have recruited other races to help them in this war (as the Shadows may also have done). Just a thought.

RPillow

Subj: Help!
Date: 96-02-20 19:14:11 EDT
From: Remy12345
Posted on: America Online

I know it’s probabaly too much to ask, but I need a summary of what happened on the station from when the Narn and Centari declared war on each other! This shadow stuff is confusing! E-mail me at Remy12345

Subj: Re:Vorlons?
Date: 96-02-20 21:26:05 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Nah, it’s pretty unlikely that the Vorlons are the ships, although there is a very good chance that the ships are a part of them.<<

Actually, I don’t think so. In a first season article (in Cinemafantastique) it states that JMS wanted “really advanced” ships, but that Ron Thorton (or was it John Copeland?) came up with the idea of having a big “space whale”, and giving the Vorlons organic tech. Also, I think that because it looked much better *and* more advanced, the Minbari and Vorlons were given it during ship designing as a sort of improvised improvement. Although, I’m not totally sure about that.

Subj: Re:Vorlons?
Date: 96-02-21 22:42:50 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

The Vorlons may or may not even need the ships they came to the station with. It may provide the illusion that they are indeed organic. Maybe they are a pure energy being. This might explain the energy draining effect on them when races view them, it may force them to use energy to take on a physical state. The suit they wear may just protect them from the spirits of other being around them. Well, just a thought…but other evidence can be brought up to support this theory. Such as when Kosh is in his own chamber and nothing can be seen but light eminating from his suit.

Subj: Re:Vorlons?
Date: 96-02-22 10:03:10 EDT
From: Deanna947
Posted on: America Online

<< Maybe they are a pure energy being. This might explain the energy draining effect on them when races view them, it may force them to use energy to take on a physical state. >>

If so, why go through all that trouble to take on a physical state when you don’t want to be recognized, as in TFoN? Why couldn’t “Kosh-the Energy Form” just pop out, save Sheridan, and go back, without all the rigamaroll of appearing to all the different races? Of course, that made it more interesting to us. No, I am not sure just WHAT the Vorlons are, but pure enrgy forms doesn’t quite make sense to me.

Good observation, though. Gives me something to think about.

D.
<*>

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-02-23 12:03:01 EDT
From: KIDCNE
Posted on: America Online

May I’m wrong but I dout it, look at the facts:

1 Babylon 4

2 Older Commander Sinclair

3 Vorlons

4 Ivanova’s psi powers (which I fell are more like 10 to 12) beause of the what she could do with on the planet

5 The new creatures that save memories

6 The way Ivanova tricked the Old ones (new allie)

 

Big War, loose a bunch of small battles, big victory at the end (Sheriden/Ivanova/Sinclair)

Try that theory on for size??????

Subj: TEk freaks
Date: 96-02-23 23:16:33 EDT
From: Overcaesar
Posted on: America Online

you people take these shows too seriously

Subj: Power of the Military
Date: 96-02-26 00:05:25 EDT
From: HARDLEC
Posted on: America Online

Three Narn Battleships were able to damage a shadow warship. The Narn we re not prepared to fight the shadows and barely able to stand against the Centari. The Centari are not very advanced militarily, they have seen their glory days centuries ago.
A pair of Minbari War Cruisers should be able to engage a shadow warship. It would take 2-3 whitw stars, but the subsequent larger madel should be able to go 1-1. The new earth cruisers and battleships, which were designed to counter the Minbari, should be able to win with a 3-4 to 1 margin. The Vorlons doubless have ships that can stop the Shadows. The main problem is how many ships to the Shadows have?
In WWII, the Japanese built the Yamato and Mushasi, thinking that each mega-battleship could engage and defeat no less than 3 of the smaller new American battleships and 5-6 of the older (WWI) ships. Problem was that the US had enough of the smaller ships to do the job (if called on, which they never were). There is no battle on record of a group of minor combatants engageing a major warship in open combat (this does not include airplanes). (a few ambush scenarios, but not open combat) so the idea of a megaship destroying a fleet is untested. It does make for great battle scenes, however.

Subj: Ancient Ones
Date: 96-02-26 22:06:04 EDT
From: LostLynk
Posted on: America Online

In a recent episode Ivoiva went to see a race kown as the “Ancient Ones.” I’d, personally, like to know more about this race, and why are they so bitter twards the Vorlons even if the have a common enemy?

Subj: wanting vs self-knowledge
Date: 96-02-27 03:17:12 EDT
From: MythosLink
Posted on: America Online

Shadows stagger the imagination.
At the B5 Lurker’s Guide web site JMS notes that there are two questions that fall across the story, sort of like bookends. One is, What do you want? (Think of Morden asking Londo, or of Kosh reacting strongly to Sheridan asking this question — “Never ask that!”) The second is, Who are you? Consider the Inquisitor’s demanding, painful interrogation of Delenn and Sheridan. Only after the Inquisitor (and Delenn, too) finds out that her answer is Nothing (… not for fame, not for glory…) does he decree that Delenn and Sheridan are ready (to the Vorlon, anyway) to take on the Shadows. You can only be ready if you are prepared to sacrafice everything — friends, allegiances, notions of self? So we have the Shadows asking about Wanting, and the Vorlons asking about Identity. Wanting/Shadows/darkness vs. Self-knowledge/Vorlons/light. Makes the Shadows and the Vorlons more interesting than mere “evil” villians and “do gooder” heroes, doesn’t it? (Compliments on the rightous dialog earlier in the thread.)

So, some curious questions for all of you proto-light beings: What are the Shadows really after? Conquest? Of other worlds? Why? What could any of the other races possibly have that would interest the Shadows? (Their technology already seems vastly superior.) And that “test” that the visiting “berzerker” offered? A Shadow-sent explosive mine? Why do they bother to enlist the younger, less powerful races in intrigue or spur on petty wars? Theirs is a larger picture. So, what is it?

A fellow soldier

Subj: Elements of Victory
Date: 96-02-27 17:49:13 EDT
From: AshleyG114
Posted on: America Online

I’ve been following the show the best l can for a while now, and l have a list of things that will help the Army of Light win, and a new idea that came to me while watching the most recent episode “Messages from Earth”
1. All the older races joining (vorlons, and that ancient that Ivanova visited)
2. Babylon 4
3. The planet
4. Mimbari technology
5. Ok, here it is, my idea. In the last episode Delenn said that a properly prepared individual could meld with and operate a Shadow warship. Why not use the Shadow’s ships against them? Send in a few people to do it, get a small force, and have them join the main fleet…they could be useful. I was thinking that maybe Lenier would be one of those to operate a shadow ship, he seems to have a very strong and loyal mind. Get back to me on this idea, let me know if you think it holds up.

Ash

Subj: Re:Elements of Victory
Date: 96-02-28 02:36:01 EDT
From: MythosLink
Posted on: America Online

<< l have a list of things that will help the Army of Light win >>
Sure, the Army of Light needs some help. It’s unclear how or whether the other races, including the Vorlons, will be able to really help. I seem to recall that Kosh, (or was it Delenn?) indicated that the Vorlons might *not* be willing this time around. As far as the Ancients go, well Ivanova seems to have succeeded with the ones at Sigma 957. But did you notice how cranky they got at the mention of the Vorlons? And how many more are there? Delenn said that after the last war many of the Ancients went beyond the galactic rim. Meanwhile Babylon 4 is reputed to still be around, perhaps in another dimension. I read a rumor that Sinclair might turn up again with B4 in his pocket. As to the planet below, well Draal is one cool baritone, and the planet’s defense system looks impressive. But you can’t maneuver a planet around like a space fleet. So if it really gets involved with all its heavy weapons the fight will have to come to it, not vice versa. With regards to Minbari technology, with all due respect for their capabilities, it is still some ways behind Vorlon gear. And Shadow tech may be superior to everyone’s, even the Vorlons.

<< Why not use the Shadow’s ships against them? … maybe Lenier would be one of those to operate a shadow ship… >>
Interesting. You propose infiltration. As you say, a Shadow vessel probably needs to “meld” with a sentient being. But what happens to the being after? Is he or she corrupted or tortured into service of the Shadows? Does the sentient perhaps become *like* the Shadows? Dr. K– (sp?) in “Messages” mentioned that Earth forces, maybe PsiCorp, wanted the Shadow ship found on Ganamede for themselves, and were really aiming to become more like *them,* Shadows that is. Put Lenier into a Shadow craft? Dangerous, on several counts. Maybe this is part of the problem. Becoming like your adversaries is perhaps as bad, or worse, than losing a war with them. But then again the stakes are for everything. What lengths will Light need to go to in order to preserve Life?

Subj: Re:B4-Paradox?
Date: 96-02-29 17:58:54 EDT
From: Orznemisis
Posted on: America Online

i think that we should not worry about the details so much and just enjoy the show

Subj: Re:B4-Paradox
Date: 96-02-29 22:31:05 EDT
From: MythosLink
Posted on: America Online

<< to Orznemisis, who wrote: i think that we should not worry about the details so much and just enjoy the show >>

Sure, enjoy the show anyway you like. But some of us are interested in story line, character development, and other “details.” It doesn’t ruin the show; rather our deeper interest enhances the enjoyment. A really good story is good precisely it is relevant to our circumstances. The political intrigue, the good vs evil challenge, all of it is a fascinating perspective on our own condition. Gotta love it more for these reasons!

Subj: Re:The shadows will take ove
Date: 96-03-02 12:22:40 EDT
From: Roadwalk7
Posted on: America Online

The third age of man is an interesting statement. Why are they finding shadowships on planets around earth? I do think that earth did have more to do with the defeat of the shadows the first go-around. As in all things even shadow has the understanding to learn from it’s mistakes. So by
dividing earth aginst itself then it can move in to control. I’ve noticed that nothing really has changed in shadows strategy since the one thought drove it off “LET THERE BE LIGHT”! I sometimes wonder why shadow is so interested in the younger child. I guess it’s fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me! Being an older child itself, I guess shadow could not resist trying to divide and control the younger. I believe there are many hiden surprises left in the human race. There are many light sources,not all burn brightly,some are carefully banked to be there when needed,like our friends on B5.

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-02 12:32:05 EDT
From: BKing85023
Posted on: America Online

The Shadow’s ships are controled by sending a life form into it. The life form then merges with the ship, therfore controling it. My question: Why can’t captain Sheridan or some good guy merge with the ship and use it to fight the Shadows?

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-02 12:38:56 EDT
From: BKing85023
Posted on: America Online

Good point. But how much better can B4 be from B5? However, two Babylons are better than one.

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-03 23:10:07 EDT
From: Fan of B5
Posted on: America Online

>>Good point. But how much better can B4 be from B5? However, two Babylons are better than one.<<

Babylon 4 was the most expensive and best outfitted of the 5 Babylon stations. It had the best weapons, best sensors, etc. When it disappeared, the funding wasn’t there for Earth to build another station on its own. It had to have the other races chip in to build B5. Therefore, it was built on a shoestring budget. You can get more info about this at the Lurker’s Guide. The address is http://www.hyperion.com/lurk/lurker.html

Benny

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-04 22:03:27 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

While it is interesting to speculate what it might take to destroy a Shadow ship, I don’t believe that enough evidence is availible to determine how many ships it will take to destroy a Shadow ship. The Narn battleship did do damage, as a matter of a fact the Narns weapon seemed quite effective against the Shadow craft. It seems that the problem was that couldn’t “lock on” to it. Since we don’t know how well other weapons affect the Shadows it’s to early to tell, but could Narn Technology be better suited for damaging Shadow craft material? Who knows. The power of a weapon is not the only criterea for it’s effectiveness. Try firing a lazer capable of cutting 6″ of steel in 1 second into a mirror.

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-05 03:23:36 EDT
From: Baha Sun
Posted on: America Online

THATS A GOOD POINT BUT I THINK THAT A TARGETING SYSTEM HAS TO BE DEVELOPED IN ORDER TO DESTROY THE SHADOW IF YOU LOOK BACK THAT IS REALLY THE ONLY TIME THAT YOU SEE DAMAGE TO A SHADOW BESIDES THE JUMP GATE EXPLOSION I THINK THAT WHEN THAT IS FIGURED OUT LIGHTS ON FOR THE SHADOW EXELANT

Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 96-03-05 04:02:45 EDT
From: Chung11
Posted on: America Online

I keep hearing that good cannot be without evil and the Shadows must go on. You people have to understand they have no other name for them. All of the ancient races interacted with the lesser races and those races thought they were gods and demons from heaven and hell. The Shadows are just evil aliens that can be destryed!

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-03-05 18:44:19 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>THATS A GOOD POINT BUT I THINK THAT A TARGETING SYSTEM HAS TO BE DEVELOPED IN ORDER TO DESTROY THE SHADOW IF YOU LOOK BACK THAT IS REALLY THE ONLY TIME THAT YOU SEE DAMAGE TO A SHADOW BESIDES THE JUMP GATE EXPLOSION I THINK THAT WHEN THAT IS FIGURED OUT LIGHTS ON FOR THE SHADOW EXELANT<<

Baha…….STOP SHOUTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look, the Whitestar got in a good shot that did about the same damage that the three Narn cruisers did. They blew off a spine. There is no one, simple answer to destroying the Shadows. Just as there was no easy, simple answer to destroying British Dreadnoughts.

Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 96-03-05 18:47:19 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>I keep hearing that good cannot be without evil and the Shadows must go on. You people have to understand they have no other name for them. All of the ancient races interacted with the lesser races and those races thought they were gods and demons from heaven and hell. The Shadows are just evil aliens that can be destryed!<<

Now, i’m not saying that Shadows are any sort of mythical Force, but about them being completely wiped out….
Funny how hundreds of races allied against them sure couldn’t do it. Not ten thousand years ago, nor a thousand years ago.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-05 19:56:15 EDT
From: Shields600
Posted on: America Online

Just remember, in Star Trek:TNG. the Borg were suppose to be the most powerful race in the galaxy and yet they were defeated by a lone ship and a group of people determined to save the human race. Maybe B5 isn’t a starship, but they still have a group of people just as determine to save all life in the galaxy. The Shadows may seem unstoppable, but Sheridan has already proven they can be.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-05 22:50:35 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

OOOPS,yeah your right HFMOON, the shadow ships was damaged by the white star. Still a targeting system will be needed. Not going to be easy, I believe the problem the humans had with Minbari was the same: they couldn’t lock on target. Greater weapons might be needed but if this is the case then the white star being of Minbari-Vorlon technology should have this, assuming that the Vorlons know how to do this.

Subj: Shadow war
Date: 96-03-09 03:08:18 EDT
From: AMP8158
Posted on: America Online

Unfortunately, all you have seen of the shadows are a few quick scenes and some of their fleet. Imagine that those ships are actually the insects of the universe. The shadow controls these nasty little bigs and is breeding them right now. Millions and millions of them are being created. What the shadow probably needs is pilots and since they just woke up there aren’t that many alive to effectively provide pilots for their ships. Combine a fleet of their ships with some of the powers in the episode Shadows of Za’Hadum and you have a very tough force.

As for the Vorlon, beware of the Vorlons. They don’t seem to like getting involved or showing themselves. The great machine on the planet probably has some good ideas on ways to win.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-09 04:19:58 EDT
From: Dam713
Posted on: America Online

I’m going to have to point out that B5 is a show that contains a great deal of symbolism. The shadows represtent a tangable form of great darkness. Like are worst enemy are greatist fear. In order to deal with such a problem the forces of lite will have to build and through shear acts of will overcome the darkness or be consumed by it themselfs. The shadows use people as a wepon onto themselfs. Right now they are causing the forces of lite to break up thus making them dimer and dimer and less and less able to deal with the insuing darkness. So half the battle is in unity another half is in will and brains and a bounus half is in luck. The show has done a good job building up to the shadow war and I do belive that when the shadows do decend upon Babylon that the show will climax and the seris will end with maybe a season devotid to the war. I really do so I hope that the sadows stay away for a few more sesons no? besides I really do like the mistery that they have been able to creat around the shadows.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-09 13:46:07 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Still a targeting system will be needed.<<

Watch every single battle ever shown on B5 and you’ll see the same thing. Lots of firing, few hits. It’s a common theme. My guess is it’s not because their targeting systems suck, but that it is, in general, hard to hit things as far away as most battles are and moving as fast as they do(relative to each other). The entire battle between the Shadows and the Narn cruisers in TLTS took place Beyond Visual Range (BVR). One of the quickest battle we’ve ever seen was in ANFAW, where the Narn cruiser and the Centauri battleship were not moving very fast at all relative to each other, and in fact weren’t very far away from each other.

Probably ECM technologies help on this matter as well.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-09 17:17:22 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

I agree Moon, still the Shadows never miss. Is that because the ships that they have so far fired on are to slow to evade them or easy to detect with their sensor/tracking system. The material that the Shadows are made of is probably difficult to detect, still the Vorlons if they are true allies would give sensor/tracking information if they had it…unless they feel it necessary for us to develop this knowledge on our own, they possess this knowledge or they are not what they seem. Alot of questions here. Obviously other issues of the war such as strategy, weapons, and politics are of equal importance.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-10 05:50:48 EDT
From: StarWarsCC
Posted on: America Online

I have been watching B5 and I have seen that weapon have done little to damage the shadow vessels. It will be hard with the Earth Alliance in Martial Law. The War Council and the Rangers are the best defense. What the Captain must do is keep his positition as commander B5 if he is removed from B5 it is over. They need Alliance with the Vorgons. After this is put into motion the Captain need to get the rangers to strike at shadow base and destroy shadow ships. The Captain need to get President Clark out of power. This would give earth and the other races the best hope for victory!

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-10 14:15:04 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< the Shadows never miss. Is that because the ships that they have so far fired on are to slow to evade them or easy to detect with their sensor/tracking system. >>

Perhaps the Shadows can see just a little bit into the future, and therefore KNOW where their target will be before it gets there, instead of the mere “track and predict” method everybody else seems to use. (You know, like the ability to figure out where a baseball is going so you can reach out your hand and catch it — if it changes direction, you’re going to miss. But if you KNOW which direction it will change to, you can catch it anyway…)
Subj: shadow war
Date: 96-03-10 22:02:47 EDT
From: WMRFAMILY
Posted on: America Online

When does it start? I thought that it was on tonight (March 10), but it was preempted by Billy Grapham.

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-12 22:23:02 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

JVibber interesting idea! Who needs super sophisticated tracking system if you know where the target is going to be. Considering the age of the Shadow race, this technical feat may be possible. One thing that hurts us conceptually is that we are so new to the possiblities science can provide. We, as humans, have been practicing true science for only a short time. Face it, humans have existed at best in some form 10,000,000 years old compared to Shadows; Billions of years old. Assuming some sort of similar evolution that gives them a considerable head start start in science oh lets say a billion years to lets say being optimistic, 200 to 1,000 years of science by humans. Oh well, here I go rambling…

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-12 22:53:13 EDT
From: Joe2m
Posted on: America Online

Only one problem, wouldn’t the Shadow ship destroyed by Sheridan be able to detect the jumpgate trap or can they only see into the future on a very limited basis and thus to late for them.

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-13 12:28:09 EDT
From: Moon2river
Posted on: America Online

The one problem I see is that Sheridan referrs to the White Star as a Marbi ship.While the earth ship,he calls my old ship.He doesn’t yet think as the White Star as his .

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-13 21:02:28 EDT
From: REBinAZ
Posted on: America Online

The shadow ships can see into the future??!!
In what episode was that revealed?
I must have been walking the puppies because I don’t remember that at all!
That makes them an even bigger threat.
Ro

Subj: Go StarBlazers
Date: 96-03-14 23:55:22 EDT
From: Dale3P
Posted on: America Online

..Wave-Motion Gun..

I like that idea.

<G>

Dale

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-14 23:56:43 EDT
From: Dale3P
Posted on: America Online

Ok,
How long has PSI-Corp known about the Shadows,
and whose side are they on?

We know Earth-Dom is compromised, is Psi-Corp?

Dale

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-15 00:01:33 EDT
From: Dale3P
Posted on: America Online

Remember “The Empire Strikes Back”
Stone Age beat Blaster Age there.

(OK so Ewoks are cute, furry, & silly as all get-out )

Dale

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-03-15 00:17:15 EDT
From: Dale3P
Posted on: America Online

How do you tell if someone/thing is evil?
Easy.
If it tries to kill you, it is evil.

Dale

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-15 17:28:10 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Only one problem, wouldn’t the Shadow ship destroyed by Sheridan be able to detect the jumpgate trap or can they only see into the future on a very limited basis and thus to late for them. >>

That depends on how you view it. After all, 1) if the Shadows tend to use a view into the future only for tracking a target, they might not think to look for a trick at a jumpgate; and 2) if the Shadows are concentrating on one thing (such as tracking a target) they might not notice another thing (like somebody sneaking up from behind).

Of course, I may be totally off base with the idea of the Shadows having some sort of “prescience,” but I don’t see any conflict with the fact that the Bonehead Maneuver surprised them.

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-15 17:30:39 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< The shadow ships can see into the future??!!
In what episode was that revealed?
I must have been walking the puppies because I don’t remember that at all! >>

No revelation, just conjecture on my part. I may be totally wrong. But it’s an interesting idea to speculate on.
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…The
Date: 96-03-15 23:56:02 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>How do you tell if someone/thing is evil?
Easy.
If it tries to kill you, it is evil.

Dale<<
LOL, oh that was funny.

Sooooo, Russians are evil, Iraqis are evil, Iranians are evil, Japanese are evil, Americans are evil, Tobacco companies are evil, petroleum companies are evil, Gas Pumps are evil(those fumes are a killer), The Earth is Evil(that Radon gas, man), Space is evil, vacuum is evil, most of the elements on the periodic table(including oxygen) are evil………..

 

Just having some fun.

Subj: PSI Shadows
Date: 96-03-16 01:57:24 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

What I see the Shadow War turning into, is not so much combat but control. The war will not be won with, actual weapons as we think of it, but it will be won with minds. Everything seem to be going to telepath like, PSI Corp, Ivonva, Ambassodor G’Karr, Ambassodor Kosh(How did he make everybody see something different, and get into G’Karrs mind), and most importantly the Shadows, and the Vorlons Ships. The shadow ships make people hears screams while the vorlons “sing” to people. This is where I think the Whitestar comes into play, It is part Vorlon technology, so it probably is also living with psycic powers, which probably needs to grow, and be able to kill the mind of a shadow ships, not the hulls. Also the Shadows may have some kind of mind lock, to lock onto alien minds on enemy vessels to destroy them with there beam. This could be the reason why the shadows missed the Whitestar, if the Whitestar could block there mind reading that could cause a Shadow ship to miss it’s target. I don’t think the shadows can see into the future, but I beleive they can read minds.
Just my thought.
Xebecian

Subj: Also
Date: 96-03-16 02:01:06 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

The Narn were the first race to be conquered, and they do not have Psycic abilities.(Now they have J’Karr though) Are the Shadows afriad of the Vorlons or Psycics?

Subj: Re:Also
Date: 96-03-17 01:47:37 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>> The Narn were the first race to be conquered, and they do not have Psycic abilities.(Now they have J’Karr though)<<

The Narn were not conquered by the shadows, only with the help of the shadows. And G’kar is not a telepath.

Subj: Re:psycorp and shadows
Date: 96-03-17 04:27:47 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

My take on the episode with the archeologist was that 7 years ago a shadow ship was dug out of the moon on Mars. This means that :

sheridan’s wife didn’t “wake” the shadows, they were already awake
secondly, the archeologist saw the shadow ships come to mars to release the one found. How did it find out? Garibaldi found a psycorp badge, which implied the corp knew about the shadows.

we don’t know how the shadows and psycorp got to gether, but they are involved, remember Morden on earth iwth a psycorp agent? who contacted whom first? would be interesting to know. Perhaps the shadows sent out psychic messages tuned to find minds compatible with their own designs and some a psycorp, like bureau 13? picked up the signal?

I guest all the corp is “captured” minds for the shadows now. only the rogue telepaths who escaped (thanks to dr. franklin and others like him) could team ukp with the rangers, and other species telepaths should there be a psychic shooting match.

Subj: Re:Also Sprach G’Kar
Date: 96-03-17 15:32:40 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< The Narn were the first race to be conquered, and they do not have Psycic abilities.(Now they have J’Karr though) Are the Shadows afriad of the Vorlons or Psycics? >>

Actually, it’s not clear whether the Narns were CONQUERED, even though the Shadows had a base on the Narn Homeworld. What’s interesting is WHY the Narns have no telepaths. G’Kar said, “They were all killed.” Killed BY WHOM, and WHY? Did the Narns kill them because they sided with the Shadows? Did the Shadows kill them because they were against the Shadows? Did the Shadows make a deal with them, then turn on them and kill them all off? There is a LOT of room for speculation.

I am also interested in what happens the next time G’Kar encounters Mr. Morden in the hallways. Will he have the same kind of reaction that Talia did? Will he be able to “see” the Shadows, or at least tell that something is wrong?

Of course, it’s not really clear that G’Kar is presently a telepath. He may have become a telepath JUST long enough to “mind-meld” with Londo and be open to a mental message from Kosh. It is possible that, when the Dust wore off, G’Kar’s telepathic abilities disappeared. I’m sure we’ll find out as the series progresses, but I just wanted to point out that very little is certain, right now.
Subj: Re:Also Sprach G’Kar
Date: 96-03-18 00:28:01 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>It is possible that, when the Dust wore off, G’Kar’s telepathic abilities disappeared.<<

Which is not only what has been implied by JMS, but also stated as the effect of Dust.

Subj: Could it be reality?
Date: 96-03-18 23:45:31 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

This message should be subtitled: “JMS: An Abductee??”

I think an interesting possibility, once which most everyone will completely ignore because it sounds so far out there (and I’m the first top admit it does sound crazy, even though it’s my theory!) is that Babylon 5 is based in some way on reality. What I mean is this:

I am VERY much into UFOs. I have something like 86megs worth of text files related to them, and another 250megs or so of pictures and other assorted stuff. If even .0053% of what I’ve read and seen is real, it’s enough to scare the crap out of me, and change the course of human history.

Now, alot of what is being tossed around in UFO circles these days revolves around the religious inplications of UFOs. Ideas like: the alien race known as the Greys are actually the minions of Satan and an epic battle between good and evil (the shadows and the light, for those of you not catchning the B5 tie-in!) is about to occur, in the next few years, for the eternal damnation of salvation of all of mankind.

Now, let’s take a HUGE leap of thought (fantasy?!?): what if there is also an alien race, maybe more than one, as the rumors go, that are here to help us. They are the beings of light, as some people describe during near-death experiences. What if they are feeding us information slowly and carefully to prepare us for the coming battle?

Now, the next huge leap: what if JMS is actually, either subconsciously, or maybe he knows!, is working for the good aliens, for lack of a better name, and is giving us the information we need by way of a story: Babylon 5??

If you read some of the files related to this coming battle (and incidentally, the bible itself supposedly fortells of this coming battle, although never having read the good book, and cannot myself claim to know this to be the case), if you read the files, you will notice ALOT of parallels between what is in B5 and what is said to be coming.

Of course, the easier explanation is that JMS saw these same files and based B5 on them! That’s certainly more likely, and alot easier to swallow (not to mention less scary!) Or, it could just be a coincidence that the stories are VERY close in details. But me, I don’t believe in coincidences that easily/

So, if in a few years, we find ourselves in a war with the Shadows, wether there really is a John Sheridan, Minbari’s, Vorlons, or anything else, you can say you saw it here first!

Ok, I am semi-serious about this, because I think as far as UFO theories go, it’s just as sane and plausable (you have to read the files though to even begin to believe anything)

Then again, it could just be a great show based on nothing! (I hope so!)

In any case, keep it up JMS! We need the information (wether it saves our souls or entertains us on the weekends, either way, I’m watching!)

Sincerely,

Nutcase Ansolaris (I’ll save you all the trouble of writing it!)
Subj: Shadow War Ending
Date: 96-03-19 19:32:20 EDT
From: Barry R F
Posted on: America Online

I know how the Shadow War will end and it will surprise you,remember how the human minbari war ended? he he.That is my clue.

Subj: Re:Could it be reality?
Date: 96-03-19 22:06:09 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> Now, alot of what is being tossed around in UFO circles these days revolves around the religious inplications of UFOs. Ideas like: the alien race known as the Greys are actually the minions of Satan and an epic battle between good and evil (the shadows and the light, for those of you not catchning the B5 tie-in!) is about to occur, in the next few years, for the eternal damnation of salvation of all of mankind.<<

Really? I heard nothing of that nature. I read about UFOs a lot also, but I’ve never heard the Greys (or Zeta-Reticulans to the MJ12) described as anything other than horrible aliens.

>> Now, let’s take a HUGE leap of thought (fantasy?!?): what if there is also an alien race, maybe more than one, as the rumors go, that are here to help us. They are the beings of light, as some people describe during near-death experiences. What if they are feeding us information slowly and carefully to prepare us for the coming battle?<<

But most other beings reported by abductees (if they are accurate, which we will assume they are) are working with the Greys. According to one person, the Norse/caucasion-looking aliens once said (when asked about the greys– the abductee thought the one he asked was a fellow human) “We tolerate them.” Of course, that’s according to him.

>> Now, the next huge leap: what if JMS is actually, either subconsciously, or maybe he knows!, is working for the good aliens, for lack of a better name, and is giving us the information we need by way of a story: Babylon 5??<<

Yes, there seem to be a lot of connections; but with an entire advanced race supporting him, how could B5 still be such a well-kept secret? 😉 And wouldn’t they cure his CTS?

>> If you read some of the files related to this coming battle (and incidentally, the bible itself supposedly fortells of this coming battle, although never having read the good book, and cannot myself claim to know this to be the case), if you read the files, you will notice ALOT of parallels between what is in B5 and what is said to be coming.<<

I have seen parallels, yes. From what I read, though, it is not a coming battle so much as a constant-but progressing- battle. If you read on some of the historical reports of odd shapes (there is a lot of history there; and these myths are not the kind in fairie tales, but just odd things that historians wrote of– like the five mysterious rings of fire that the Pharoah did not put there [it was a well-liked pharoah, and this was in no myth or anti-monarchy text; it was just written anyway.]) There are numerous reports (mainly from England, central and northern Europe, and Asia) of objects striking or burning each other, and in one text from Germany, in the 1400s, several rings and crosses and spheres fought, crashing a few which were gone the next day. Clearly, if this was a real event at all, the things are fighting as much as they ever will.

>> Of course, the easier explanation is that JMS saw these same files and based B5 on them! That’s certainly more likely, and alot easier to swallow (not to mention less scary!) Or, it could just be a coincidence that the stories are VERY close in details. But me, I don’t believe in coincidences that easily/<<

I do.

>> Ok, I am semi-serious about this, because I think as far as UFO theories go, it’s just as sane and plausable (you have to read the files though to even begin to believe anything)<<

I read about them, but I’m not sure I believe any of it. It’s just nice to know what might or might not be going on– and if wrong, it’s great sci-fi, too!

 

 

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-19 22:20:41 EDT
From: DocDMop
Posted on: America Online

Re: How could the Mimbari have possibly aided the Vorlon <like one using M16, the other throwing stones> don’t forget the story of David and Goliath.

DocDMop
Subj: Re:Could it be reality?
Date: 96-03-20 00:00:44 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

That’s right! No matter what the real truth is, maybe someone will write a book based on my own theory! Oh well, who knows?!?!

P.S. – Thanks for not calling the guys in the white coats right off the bat! 😉
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-20 03:59:56 EDT
From: Kayann2695
Posted on: America Online

B5 cannot be a useful resistance base because its location is too well known. Any force that can defeat Earth’s defenses, much less Mimbar’s, can defeat B5.

Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 96-03-20 04:07:49 EDT
From: Kayann2695
Posted on: America Online

I must correct you theology shadow. Shadows are only created by an absence of light. Shadows cannot exist where light can reach, therefore, it is the Light that always wins. Shadows brag of their age, yet they have yet to win. The Shadows have to adapt to and run from the light, and after so many millenia, they still have not won the war, only battles.

Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 96-03-20 22:35:50 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

May I add my 2 cents?!?

Without the light, there can be no shadows. And conversely, shadows are a necassery by-product of light and the presence of matter. They must exist together, or they can never exist at all.

(without evil, there can be no good, without heaven, there can be no hell)
Subj: Re:Shadow War Ending
Date: 96-03-21 02:32:22 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I know how the Shadow War will end and it will surprise you,remember how the human minbari war ended? he he.That is my clue.>>

Ah, I get it. The Minbari will surrender because they discover that not only are Minbari souls being reincarnated as humans, but they are also being reincarnated on Za’Ha’Dum.

That IS what you meant, isn’t it?
Subj: Ansolris
Date: 96-03-23 01:07:52 EDT
From: Thorans
Posted on: America Online

Just so you do’t think you’re alone….

I have a friend at work who has made the same connections you have, and has recounted the exact theory to me in conversations. I have even posted a message to JMS about it, because she asked me to do so (in the “Ask JMS #5″ folder).

But, she never mentioned the “abductee” angle. Interesting.

Just thought you’d like to know you’re not “all alone in the night”.

KS

Subj: Re:Shadow War Ending
Date: 96-03-23 14:06:36 EDT
From: RomeoX642
Posted on: America Online

Smack! I KNOW how the war ends! I have spoken with the executive producer of Babylon 5 and he has told me exactly how it ends! I will be happy to tell you, but not here. I don’t want to spoil it right here. E-Mail me at RomeoX642@aol.com and I will be happy to send you the outcome of the war and how it comes about. This is not a joke nor an assumption based on given fact. I KNOW!
I have spoken tho the Executive Producer himself!

Subj: Re:Shadow War Ending
Date: 96-03-23 18:27:18 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>
Smack! I KNOW how the war ends! I have spoken with the executive producer of Babylon 5 and he has told me exactly how it ends! I will be happy to tell you, but not here. I don’t want to spoil it right here. E-Mail me at RomeoX642@aol.com and I will be happy to send you the outcome of the war and how it comes about. This is not a joke nor an assumption based on given fact. I KNOW!
I have spoken tho the Executive Producer himself!<<

Um… We’ve ALL spoken to the executive producer… Just check the “Ask JMS” board….
And if you’re talking about John Copeland, I think he gives out disinformation. I asked about some of the thinks he’s said, and JMS’ responses range from “HUH?” to “I can confirm he said that, but not that it’s right” to “Well, he wants to conquer Latveria”.

Subj: Re:Shadow War Ending
Date: 96-03-23 22:36:27 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>I asked about some of the thinks he’s said, and JMS’ responses range from “HUH?” to “I can confirm he said that, but not that it’s right” to “Well, he wants to conquer Latveria”.<<

Hmm. I bet Dr. Doom wouldn’t like that very much…

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-23 23:00:17 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Joe2m,

You wrote <<…still, the Shadows never miss.>> Really? It seems to me that they have missed the White Star on every encounter that they have had with it. The Vorlons have given the lesser races some of their technology in the form of the White Star. If you recall in “Matters of Honor”, Delenn said that the White Star was a combination of Minbari and Vorlon technology. I have a feeling that we haven’t even seen a fraction of what the White Star can really do. It will be interesting to see how they use it when direct confrontations with the Shadows begin in earnest.

RPillow

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-23 23:03:33 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Joe2m,

You wrote <<….humans have existed at best in some form 10,000,000 years old compared to the Shadows; Billions of years old.>> Don’t be so sure of that. While it is true that the current incarnation of humans in physical bodies may have existed for roughly that long (or less), we have been around for MUCH longer than that. Life takes many forms during the different Ages of every species. You would do well to remember that.

RPillow

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-03-23 23:05:35 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

REBinAZ,

The comments about the Shadow vessels being able to see into the future are only speculation and theories. There is no conclusive proof that they have this ability. While we do know that they Shadow ships are telepathic to some degree, there has been no evidence to suggest that they can see into the future.

RPillow

Subj: Re:PSI Shadows
Date: 96-03-23 23:07:51 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xebecian,

Excellent!! You are getting very close. Keep thinking along those lines.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Also
Date: 96-03-23 23:10:53 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

HFMoon,

How do you know that G’Kar is not a telepath? In “Dust to Dust,” it was said that the Narns still have the latent telepathic gene, but that it was not strong enough to breed a natural telepath after all of the other Narn telepaths had been killed off. The fact that the dust worked on G’Kar at all proves that he does have the latent telepathic gene. It is very possible that he IS a telepath now, although his skills are totally undeveloped. In time, however, he might learn to control his psi ability. I’d keep a close eye out for that possibility if I were you. Just my $.02.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Could it be reality?
Date: 96-03-23 23:20:40 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

I agree with your idea that Babylon 5 is based on reality, much more so than most people are capable of realizing. In fact, I’m sure of it. I have spent my entire life up to this point researching many things that coincide with the overall story arc of Babylon 5, and the similarities are astonishing. I have learned a great many things that go beyond conventional learning and deal with the future of humanity, the coming struggle between the forces of light and dark (which I believe is coming upon humanity VERY soon), and the true nature of humanity and how we currently perceive reality on this planet that we call Earth. My studies have led me to find that we have all been tricked. Reality as we know it is not what it seems, and we are much more in control of what we see than many people are currently aware. Satan is a crafty fellow, but behind what he would have us to see is what God would have him to see, and there lies the one true reality and all the answers that we need about ourselves. I’ve gotten to deep into this already, but if you want to know more about what I have discovered, or more accurately rediscovered and remembered, keep watching these boards.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-23 23:25:40 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Kayann2695,

Don’t be so sure of that. B5 has many powerful allies that would protect the station in the event that it should be attacked. They have the Vorlons, the Walkers at Sigma-957 (although they seem to be angry with the Vorlons for reasons as yet unknown), the Minbari, the Great Machine controlled by Draal on Epsilon 3, plus the Rangers and their own defense grid. These forces should be more than enough to battle with any force for a limited amount of time. The only way that the Shadows could destroy Babylon 5 would be through a MASSIVE show of force, and from what we’ve seen they’re not quite ready to do that yet.

RPillow

Subj: How to destroy Shadow Ships.
Date: 96-03-24 16:36:25 EDT
From: Berretta6
Posted on: America Online

Since the Shadow are organic in nature (living ships), you have to use old technology to destroy new technology.
By using biological weapons instead of mechanical weapons, we have a greater chance of winning by giving them a juicy virus…
REMEMBER—THEY’RE ORGANIC…
HIT THEIR SOUL NOT THEIR BODIES…WHY BREAK THE SHELL WHEN YOU CAN FRY THE EGG.
—Berretta6 (a B5 fan)

Subj: Re:other allies
Date: 96-03-25 22:05:13 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Don’t forget the Technomages who rode off into the sunset (the Rim) to defend flowers and all other good things.

I’d love to have them on another ep. Maybe when Sheridan goes to Za’Hadum (see the sci fi universe mag) they’ll be there to help.

Subj: Re:other allies
Date: 96-03-26 03:09:31 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Don’t forget the Technomages who rode off into the sunset (the Rim) to defend flowers and all other good things. >>

Actually, my impression was that the Technomages didn’t want to be “used” — by EITHER side in the upcoming Shadow War. They seem to have decided to leave “known space” as the only way of making sure that couldn’t happen.
Subj: Re:VORLONS////SHADOWS
Date: 96-03-28 12:07:26 EDT
From: JSrybnik
Posted on: America Online

I thought so, but who knows the story writers want us to think that as well and then come up with some real surprise

Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 96-03-28 19:25:29 EDT
From: TMC68
Posted on: America Online

Remember the episode when the exiled original inhabitants of the planet tried to return? The planet released a powerful beam weapon that destroyed the ship in the same fashion as the Shadow ships. Now consider the size and resources that a planet contains and consider the size of fleet that would be required to destroy it!

Subj: Re:RE: Planet in B5 space.
Date: 96-03-28 19:28:44 EDT
From: TMC68
Posted on: America Online

Sorry, Jakar. I didn’t see your post before I posted my messages. You are absolutely correct!

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-29 03:34:56 EDT
From: Riceball01
Posted on: America Online

You know, all you really need to defeat the shadows are Takaya Noriko and Kasumi Amano along with good ‘ol Gunbuster. If that aint enough, you always have buster machine 3, the BLACK HOLE BOMB. But Gunbuster should be more than enough to take on the Shadows. Who knows, maybe Noriko’s screaming and clothes ripping will scare the Shadows into submission.

If things get really bad you could always call in the Dirty Pair.

Riceball
Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-03-29 21:18:03 EDT
From: TiMorgan
Posted on: America Online

> You know, all you really need to defeat the shadows are Takaya Noriko
> and Kasumi Amano along with good ‘ol Gunbuster. If that aint enough, you
> always have buster machine 3, the BLACK HOLE BOMB.

Hmmph. A Gunbuster is nothing. Dick Seaton and the SKYLARK OF VALERON could mop the galaxy up with the Shadows in one good afternoon, and his story was told in the 1920’s!

Hint: there are _many_ books/stories/movies/comics heros and ships throughout SF that easily handled threats as worse than the Shadows. The point is, given what resources that the B5 guys have, how well can they handle the war. That’s where the story lay. :-)

Subj: Winning
Date: 96-03-29 22:33:06 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Well, I believe as of this point in the B5 story we have no hope of guessing the ending. So many new additions to the plot will be added.

I believe that the shadows are very smart. Why fight a war agianst an enemy government, when you can control the enemy goverment (shadow infiltration of Earth). Why fight your enemys, when your enemys fight eachother (Centari vs. the non-allied worlds, and the Narin). I think the shadows only need their super ships if something goes wrong.

JOKERr808

Subj: RE: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 96-03-29 22:34:31 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Opposites attract!

JOKERr808

Subj: Re:Ansolris
Date: 96-03-30 01:19:56 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Well, thank you very much for recounting that story for me. It does indeed make me feel a little saner atleast to know I’m not the only one noticeing what I THINK I’m noticeing!

Perhaps we should all watch B5 even more critically from now on. Maybe the answer to our own fates will lie in the stories spun on our television sets. I know I’ll be anxiously awaiting how we defeat the Shadows (or even if we don’t! Who’s to say good always wins anyway?)
Subj: More on reality…
Date: 96-03-30 01:32:58 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I thought I might post this for some of you who do not share the views of myself and others (or have not as yet considered the posibilites). I will here try and show the parallels between what is believed to be the truth in real life (or in some cases, the rumors which are flying around which are in some cases baseless), and what we all consider to be pure science fiction in B5. I hope it is enlightening, interesting, and maybe even a little frightening. I’m sure I will miss some, so I will post more as I recall them (or discover them), and anyone else can feel free to do the same, since it has been shown to me that I am not “all alone in the night”!

(1) The ultimate battle between good and evil on B5, humanity verses the Shadows (humanities and it’s allies that is).
One of the scariest rumors in UFO, supernatural circles is that VERY soon, like within 10 years or less, there will be a monumental battles between the forces of good (Jesus and his children) and the devil and his minions for the eternal damnation or salvation of all humanity (this is VERY much based in biblical interpretation, and since I am not particularly religious in the normal senses, perhaps someone else could quote and explain the necassery biblical text). This battle will be fought on earth, and in space.
Fear not, we are not alone, as the rumors go. There are, among us now, other alien races that are here to help us in the battle (some of which are refereed to as the beings of light, seen during many near-death experiences. They are also called angels, much like the Vorlons are depicted on B5 by the way). The aliens which do the vast majority of the abudtcions we all hear and read about, known generally as the greys, are in fact the minions of satan himself. They are who we will be in direct conflict with.
This underlying theme, both on B5, and theoretically in real life, is the basis for everything else on the show, and what I will tell you about in real life.

(2) The infiltration of earth government.
There is failry strong evidence, by way of some controversial documents supposedly from the U.S. government itself to substantiate what I am about to say: the U.S. goeverment entered into a deal with these greys nearly 5 decades ago, shortly after the reported UFO crash in Roswell, NM. This deal basically allowed the greys to abduct a certain number of people per year for their own scientific research. It allowed, in cooperation with our government, the building of an uncertain number of basis throughout the U.S. (Before I go on, let me say that this was done throughout the world, most notably in the U.S. and the Soviet Union, for fairly obvious reasons). The aliens in return would give us technology.
Now, at some point, the aliens decided to reneg on the deal. They began abducting MANY, MANY more people than they were “allowed”. The technology was in fact turned over, to some extent, but could not be operated except by the aliens. The government got very scared when they realized they had, for lack of a better way to put it, sold their souls, and all of ours, to the devil. This may in fact be more closer to the truth then they ever realized.
In theory, the aliens are right now in control of the entire world for the most part through subversive measures aimed at control of political, ecenomical and military institutions. Think about this before you completely dismiss that: if an alien race did in fact want to invade and take of the earth, even if they were extremely far in advance of us technologically, would it not be much easier to take over subversively? Put it this way: if they came down with ray gun ‘a-blazin, even though they may beat us to a pulp, we’d NEVER stop resisting. They would be fighting a war forever, and wether they could sustain it forever or not, it probably would hardly be worth whatever effort it took. Continued on next posting…
Subj: More On Reality Continued…
Date: 96-03-30 01:46:31 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

(3) The Vorlons. As I said earlier, the Vorlons are what we would call angels, or beings of light. They are actually here to help us against the real Shadows. They give us guidance, and have been for some time now, maybe since the beginning. Without them we would probably stand little chance or survival, let alone victory. However, as is the case on B5, it is sometimes very hard to tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Are the Vorlons really the Shadows? That’s a possibility. Conversely, who’s to say the angels, as we percieve them, are not the true enemy, and the greys are not our friends? What if their abductions are a desperate attempt to genetically engineer a superior crossbreed between humans and greys to create a race capable of defeating the angels?
Now that I doubt, but again, it’s muddy waters in some respects.
The bible itself, along with countless prophets, Nostradamus to name just one of the most famous, sais that right around the year 2000 will be the second coming of Christ, as well as the coming of Satan. Something is looming on the horizon, and I’m FAR from the only one who thinks so.

It is also rumored that the U.S. government is planning a huge release of information related to UFOs this year. The exact date us unknown, but Steven Spielberg is releasing a movie about Roswell sometime around September/October. It is said that the major announcements about UFOs will begin no more than 2 months after the release of that movie, startung with a simple announcement: “The governemtn has verified the existance of life outside the atmosphere of earth”. They will at some point tell us they have been in contact with aliens, that they did in fact recover a crashed UFO and a number of alien bodies in 1947 in New Mexico at Roswell and Corona. I doubt they’re going to tell us any time soon that we are being invaded, subversively as it may be, or that they gave permission to an alien race to abduct it’s citizens for completely unspecified purposes.

It is interesting to note that Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagen (ESPECIALLY Reagen) and George Bush all hinted at the existance of alien life. In fact, Reagen, in a speech a few years back, said something to the effect that “Some day, the inhabitants of earth may face a threat from outer space” (that is not an exact quote, nor is it a complete transcript, but that sentence alone, wether in context or out, is stunning in itself for a president to make in a serious speech!)

And one other thing that I need to bring up is that alot of the people I speak to about this stuff believe that we stand no chance against an invading alien army, and that we shouldn’t even try to fight back. This to me is the most ludicrous, madening statement anyone could make. Anyone that would just lay down because the fight might be too hard deserves to die as far as I’m concerned. What if our own ancestors decided fighting for our country’s freedom was too hard a struggle, and we should just continue to live under English rule? And what of the native americans? Sure, they lost the war, for all intents and purposes (and that;s arguable anyway), but atleast they stood togetherm united and did battle. Their beliefs were strong enough, and their love of all that they posessed, their lives in particular, that they would fight, no matter what the odds. We may some day, some day very soon I think, be faced with a battle of proportions we cannot comprehend yet. And the odds will probably be stacked so much against us that there seems no hope. But anyone that will not stand with me, shoulder to shoulder, to fight for our lives and our freedom, do me a personal favor and blow yourself away. (And I in no way mean that as an advocation of suicide, because suicide is EXACTLEY what I’m speaking AGAINST: when the going get’s tough, or even seemingly impossible, you don’t give up, you fight harder).
Subj: To Ansolaris
Date: 96-03-30 03:25:29 EDT
From: Dezwan1
Posted on: America Online

You make some very interesting points. But, try this on for size:

In the book of The Revelation of St John the Divine, the following statements are made:

And I stood upon the sand of the shore, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:1

Now, try to forget all of the bunk that you’ve been taught about the bible using figurative language, and imagine yourself as a man who lives about 80 years after the time of Christ. You’ve glimpsed the future, and during that, you witnessed a spaceship crash into the Mediterranean. Describe the extraterrestrial life form which survives that crash. I think that this description is accurate.

Comments to: bxrstu@westga.edu

Subj: About the Shadow War
Date: 96-03-31 05:11:02 EDT
From: StarWarsCC
Posted on: America Online

Here is my thoughts. The first Shadow War they were defeated, not destroyed. I think that they will be destroy but at a huge cost of life. Why remember the first season episode when B4 phased into the universe. At the end future Derlin and Sinclair tried to warn the galaxy of a terrible event I think it was the Shadow War. So there was a vision of this terrible event, the Shadow War. To win the shadow war, they first need to get Mordon out of the way. He is the key. Also get Earth Secured, President Clark out of office. Then they need the Vorlons they are powerful the what you can call them the Good guy fighting the shadows. They need some weapon that can destory Shadow Ships and that time is now. The B5 need a lots of luck and ambush of the Shadow Fleet, destory some of shadow forces. I don’t know why but I think that Sinclair is coming back to help fight the war against the Shadow. Becoming an ambassodor is like protecting him till he is needed. These are my thoughts.

Subj: Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-02 01:09:54 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Ummm….I assume that you’re taking all this stuff seriously…I think you’ve been watching wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much X-Files, buddy…..besides that…this “changes with the new millenium” thing…aside from that fact that I don’t believe that, why would aliens come then? They wouldn’t have the same calendar, and the year would have no significance to them. Y’know, I’ll bet that there were people running around screaming that Jesus was returning in 999, too…nothing happened then, did it?

Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 96-04-02 06:09:25 EDT
From: BARRIEJ
Posted on: America Online

Yeah! Maybe we could lure all the shadow ships into range of that planet and it could zap ’em

great thought

Subj: Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-02 19:32:10 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Very interesting thoughts. I do believe the aliens, but I think that your really jumping to conclusions with your ideas. It’s just a T.V. show. On what you think about the ‘great crisist’ sometime in the early 21st century, I’m not sure that I believe it. I’ve heard many things such as God will come, and things such as liner time will stop, and more. The only logical thing that I can think of that would be a ‘great crisist’, or a ‘amazing occurance’ would be the invention of the time machine, but even that seems very improbable.

Subj: Since when?
Date: 96-04-02 21:16:18 EDT
From: Vollmers
Posted on: America Online

Some poeple say that the B5 show is the same as WWII, others the Bible. Well, the fact is both have merit and both dont. since when have we seen Jesus on B5? Since when have we seen Brition ect.
As for light and dark, Both exist because of the other. Salt is made up of two chemicals (which escape me) bonded together. If the two chemicals are seperated, alone ther dangerous in ther own way. but together they create salt, or in otherwords, the universe as we know it.

As for the monologue, the people saying it could just be in somebodys memory, maybe Kosh is the lone survivor, or maybe Londo, or possibly, the shadows themselves… remmembering a better time, when the universe WAS total chaos. You wont know till the very last epsisode of B5
So, what do you think? E Mail me or post another!

Subj: Re:To Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-02 21:48:33 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Very interesting! Thanks for noting that one!
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-02 21:52:51 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

While it is true that near the turn of every thousad years (millenium? I forget the term) there has historically been screaming about coming destructions, returns of religious figures, etc. However, keep this in mind: at no other time has there been a technologically advanced race as we are now. No other inhabitants of this planet (this is arguable, but I tend to believe it is true) have ever been able to deystory themselves, visit other worlds, or things of that nature. True, and alien civilization would likely not have the same calendar as us, but, who is to say our calendar is not based on an alien race’s? I mean, the concept of AD, BC, could be based on something alien, not on religious grounds. Actually, who is to say religioni is not based on alien things?
As for watching too much X-Files, that show should be hailed as somethnig it is not: something which opens people’s minds to alternate possiblities. You may call me crazy for my belifs, but then again, atleast I THINK about stuff. That’s really half the battle, isn’t it? A search for truth, a quest for knowledge?
Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-02 21:55:23 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

In all honesty, I’m not sure I believe in a coming crisis myself. Sometimes it seems clear, olther times I think it’s totally nuts! I’m open to other possibilities though.
AS for it “just being a TV show”, chances are, that’s 100% correct. What if it’s not though? That’s my whole point really. There are similarities to some things that are fact, most things which are conjecture. Again, it could just be a written baseing his stories on what he reads and hears, themn again, it could be the opther way around. Remember, I did open by saying “this is far-fetched and crazy”, but I think it’s wrong to dismiss ANY possiblity out of hand, no matter how wacky it sound (and this all DOES sound wacky, no argument there!)
Subj: Re:Since when?
Date: 96-04-02 22:48:02 EDT
From: YaxPac
Posted on: America Online

<<Salt is made up of two chemicals (which escape me) bonded together. If the two chemicals are seperated, alone ther dangerous in ther own way. but together they create salt, or in otherwords, the universe as we know it.>>

Sodium and Chlorine. Otherwise, right on target, except ummm, the universe is made of very little of them in comparison to Hydrogen and Helium.

My $.02

Evan

 

Subj: Re:Shadow war
Date: 96-04-02 23:16:07 EDT
From: APEXFTMYER
Posted on: America Online

When will the Shadow War come to the earth and will the mars colony become involved and on whos side ? Will the Centarie Republic enter the war on the side of the alliance?

Subj: Vollmers
Date: 96-04-03 03:03:24 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

About the light and darkness stuff: when you used the fact that the compound salt is made of the two different elements, when seperated they are no longer salt, as an example for the light and darkness, well, what if light and darkness were simply a mixture, like salt and water. Salt and water can be mixed together to from saltwater (with the properties of both salt and water), and can be seperated to and retain their original properties. Light (vorlons), and dark (shadows) could’ve been mixed togeather to form and unknown, but original race, they don’t need eachother to survive.

If I made no sense at all, forgive me I’m very tired.

Subj: Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-03 03:10:44 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris, I once read this:

“An open mind is like a fortress, with it’s gate unbared, and unguarded.”

I DO NOT enterly agree with this quote, as easily seen this states that an open mind is a bad thing. I believe that if your mind is too open there can be a problem, but if it is closed than there can also be a problem. For example (using the above quote) if your guards at the gate turn away an old man who says that he must talk to the king, the king will never know that there is an opposing army surrounding, and destroying his kingdom, until it is too late.

Keep thinking Ansolaris, because it’s people like you who cause breakthroughs in phlyosopy (excuse my spelling) and scientific thought.

Subj: Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-03 19:10:46 EDT
From: Vollmers
Posted on: America Online

Well, The year 2000 is gojng to be speciel for certain! Something strange and powerfull may happen in the next millenea. After all, time and time again, people who say they see the futer have put the date AD 2000 as a giant change in humanity. I do agree that if a seemingly undefeetably Goliath of an army comes to your door wanting to fight, you give em hell. chances are many humans will survive, even though ther wont be much to live for. As for the recent presidents, what happened to “Starwars”? They claimed budget confinments but confinments in Reagons time? bush put it under the rug and Clinton just ignores it. Our culture after the greatest war in humanity, which launched off our first A-bomb, has just been skyrocketing with Technology.Why? Human history shows something has always knocked us down when we were on top. why dont the “Greys” knock us down again? maybe we got something they need at Rosswell. Maybe we are in control… control that really wasnt ours. Well, anyways, what you wrote what very interesting, and Ill stand with you if you need me!

Subj: This “coming crisis” stuff..
Date: 96-04-03 23:55:36 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

To whoever told me to keep it up, thanks, I will! I hope you’ll all do likewise!

And for the person who said he’d stand by my side if the “ultimate” batlle does come in the next millenium, great, that’s what needs to be said and felt! I do hope I don’t need you though (I don’t want to be in that position unless it’s ABSOLUTELY necassery anyway!)

But aside from all that, I do think it only fitting to get back to B5 and enjoy it as a great show, and nothing more.

I don’t honsetly have a clue how we’re going to beat the shadows. I don’t think quite enough information has been given in the show so far to come to a reasonable conclusion. I find it unlikely that we’ll beat them outright, as their ships seem to be superior to all others, including the Vorlons (although we’ve seen their ships in a very limited fashion, so maybe their closer in ability than I suspect). And what about this new race that Ivonava contacted? (I forget the name!) Could they be the wild card, so to speak?
(P.S. – Did anyone see Andrea Thompson on JAG tonight?!? I kept waiting for here to scan some marine!)
I doubt our victory (if we assume we are victorious! Who knows what JMS has planned anyway!), I doubt it will be a technological victory. I think it’ll be something deeper than that, although I have no clue what!
I remember the TV movie “V” (of course I do! I just rented it fromthe video store the other day and watched all 8+ hours again!) Remember how they finally beat the visitors? Chemical warfare. Now, I’m not saying we’ll beat the shadows with a tamed version of AIDS or something like that, but the chemical warfare angle in “V” was kind of an off-center way of victory. We stood no chance against them with normal warfare techniques, i.e. Starfuries against Shadow ships, but maybe there will be a round-about way to defeat them (and I wouldn’t count on Sheridan dragging many more Shadow ships into planet’s atmospheres, or blowing up too many more jump gates with Shadow ships in hot pursuit! Those kind of tactics can only work for so long, and deystroy soo many ships. Not to mention, sooner or later, one of those neat tricks are going to backfire and take the White Star along with it!)

Well, let’s see what develops (new episodes this month I believe? This weekend even I think? (I didn’t recognize the TV guide description of the episode for this week, is it a new one already??))

Byebye

Fantasy (Ansolaris()
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-04 01:16:38 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>I mean, the concept of AD, BC, could be based on something alien, not on religious grounds.<<

Do you mean some Alien event, or just that Anno Domine and Before Christ are terms made up by aliens?

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-04 01:18:35 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Well, The year 2000 is gojng to be speciel for certain! Something strange and powerfull may happen in the next millenea.<<

Except(and I do hate to be this nitpicky) the next millenium doesn’t start untill Jan1st, 200*1*. 2000 is the end of this millenium.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-04 01:20:26 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>As for the recent presidents, what happened to “Starwars”? They claimed budget confinments but confinments in Reagons time?<<

Umm, yeah. Heard of the deficit? Even the people who were running, err, that is, even Reagan couldn’t get the few hundred billion it would cast for the basic systems out of pure paranoia.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-04 01:31:47 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

I think about things too. I think about things LOGICALLY. Think about that for a while. By the way-I happen to know exactly what our calendar is based on. A.D.=Anno Domini-after Christ’s birth. B.C.=Before Christ. Got it? As for our religion being based on Aliens, it may well be that major religious figures were E.B.E.s. That isn’t the point. Ah well, just for fun, I’ll call you up on January 1, 2000 and ask you if you see any ships or odd lights coming out of the sky. If you do, I’ll check for myself. Fair enough? (By the way, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m not one to attempt to convince of religious things. I’m a religious cynic.)

Subj: Re:Shadow war
Date: 96-04-04 01:33:27 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

The Republic will enter on the “We want to live” side. That would, I assume, include the Earth Alliance, though, if you’ll check this Friday, B5 is seceding from it.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-04 03:14:24 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< “An open mind is like a fortress, with it’s gate unbarred, and unguarded.” >>

Actually, one of my favorite quotes is:
“I have a mind like a steel trap. Everything that gets in it gets crushed and mangled.”
Subj: to win
Date: 96-04-04 04:03:04 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Sadly enough, I think a special, tricky way to win could by through Psi-corp. It seems to me that the shadows are living things. Living things have minds, right? Well, get a strong enough telepath, and enough of ’em, and you could put a whole shadow fleet out of action.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-04 16:28:33 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I was thinking in terms of it being an alien event (don’t ask me what, i’m not that imaginative!) Of course, I’ve read soime files that Christ, and all religion, was created by aliens, but that’s one not even I buy!!
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-04 20:12:16 EDT
From: Vollmers
Posted on: America Online

Wher did you get this alien religion stuff? Stargate? Well anyways most religons as we know them were created by the David Coperfields of the ancient times. For instance, Egyptain Pharo’s used magic to astound ther subjects. They used one of the oldest tricks in the book, an arrow’s two tips connected by wire and put on the head, to prove they were immortal. Jesus could have just been a magician, the Budah to, maybe they could have been aliens. After all, the christen religeon has held up mankind for 1500 years, with all that Dark Ages crap. So mqaybe current religeon is here to hold us back? Interesting…

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-05 06:47:32 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Why don’t you buy that Christ and other related event had to do with EBEs? It makes sense-some of the things said to have happened are not doable by humans (at least then).

Subj: Re:to win
Date: 96-04-05 13:24:34 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Sadly enough, I think a special, tricky way to win could by through Psi-corp. It seems to me that the shadows are living things. Living things have minds, right? Well, get a strong enough telepath, and enough of ’em, and you could put a whole shadow fleet out of action. >>

Could be. Perhaps that’s why the Narn telepaths were all killed. Maybe the Shadows killed them off because they were a danger.

Of course, maybe they died fighting the Shadows. Or maybe the rest of the Narn killed them off because they SIDED with the Shadows (like Earth’s PsiCorps seems to have done).
Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-05 17:36:38 EDT
From: FrogPriest
Posted on: America Online

2000 is abitrary because it is based on a number than has nothing to do with anything. JC doesn’t even care much less the cosmos because our earthly western Christian numbering system reaches 2000 (unlike the Jewish, Muslim, Mayan or any other system) and this is only earth related

Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-06 01:37:02 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Let me see….
(1) I believe the shadows were around LONG before the Narn were (could be wrong though, I missed the first season of B5 almost completely: I thought it was cheezy after the premier, and didn’t watch it for a while, then got into it BIG TIME. Man, what was I thinking the first time?!?!) So I don’t believe that could be.

(2) Why don’t I believe EBE’s have to do with Christ? Well, I guess just because I have to draw the line somewhere! I;m not religious however, so it’s not my beliefs getting in the way. I just think it’s more likely the bible is either (A) a bunch of nonsense, (B) a bunch of stories creatyed by some wise people way back when to try and guide us, (C) the truth written down. What I read about the alien connection was that the aliens created our religion to mold our society as they saw fit (also read that they have the crusifiction of Chrust stored in a holographic crystal- that;s just a little too far out for me to believe!)

(3) As for the year 2000 being an arbitrary date, that is very likely the case. However, the bible points to it being significant, as do other religious documents (I am told), and MANY prophets (wether they are real or not) point to it as significant. Does any of that mean it is significant? No, of course not. But, it’s the only date in history that holds such historical references. Why would the year 1000 not be considered just as important? Sure, it’s possible history just forgot all the hoopla surrounding the coming of the second millenium, but maybe not.

I think it comes down to this still (I’ve said this before): we are the most technologically advanced race in recorded history, most probably in the entire history of our world. We are capable of things which make us rather significant in the universe (I am extrapolating that fact based on our ability to wipe out our planet- I can’t believe that is not significant in some way in the greater scheme of things,, although probaly not incredibly important).

Keep this in mind: THE WHOLE OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE DOUBLES EVERY DECADE. Think about that for a minute, and REALLY understand it (most people don’t fully grasp what that means). In ten years, we will know twice as much as we currently do in general, and it follows, will be capable of twice as much. That is an incredible growth margin. I believe that any sentient race that attains that level of development must be considered significant, and that is what I base my belief that the year 2000 (or within a few years of it, hey, I;m no psychic- I deal with margins of error!) will bear some importane in our history, the likes of which are unknown in history.
Subj: Shadows & PSI, 1 & the same?
Date: 96-04-06 21:02:22 EDT
From: ALLEN268
Posted on: America Online

I’ve watch B5 since the beginning and I’ve reached a very different conclusion.

When the first “Shadow agent” was introduced into the B5 world I had assumed that he was a alien disguised as a human. But now I believe that is what we were lead to believe.

I believe that the PSI Corps or some other Earth Dome scientific expedition discovered the long lost Shadow ship(s), and learned how to combine with it.

Think about it, if the Shadows are so powerful why do they hide in hyper-space? Why haven’t they just come in and taken over? Why have they agreed to split the universe with the Centari Republic?

It is known that the Shadow ships are control by only one person joining in a sybiotic relationship and that the ships are in a way….. ALIVE!

It is my belief that the PSI Corps and Pres. Clark, either as a willing member or puppet, discovered the Shadow ships and the history behind them and devised a plan fear and suspicion.

My thoughts on this subject are many and very deep, if anyone has any thoughts on what I have written or would like to discuss this further please feel free to write me @aolALLEN268.

ALLEN268

 

Subj: Re:Shadows & PSI, 1 & the sa
Date: 96-04-06 22:10:50 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I think fhis is a very possible idea. The only thing I tend to believe dosen’t support that is the fact that if that were the case, why not just come in with shadow ships to attack B5 and the other colonies that declared independance in “Severed Dreams?”. It seems if they have control of even one shadow ship (and we know there are more than one running around) they would use them alot more readily. Unless of course they are not completely in control of them, or they don’t have too many more (let’s see, 2 deystoryed already, how many attacked the Narn? 4 I think? So there could be a minimum of 2 left if that theory is correct?)

It is a VERY interesting possibility, (although not a completely original one, as I’ve sene that idea floated around a few times), but you state it in a very believable way. You could very well be right!

Things are getting VERY interesting, are they not?!?
Subj: Re:Shadows & PSI, 1 & the sa
Date: 96-04-07 02:21:28 EDT
From: ALLEN268
Posted on: America Online

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was hoping someone would understand what I was tring to get at.

As for using these ships, they are most likly for specfic missions only. Where there can be almost no survivres as to keep the mystery alive! Because they only have a few ship to use they must get all the other worlds fighting among themselves and Earthforces fighting amongst themselves. Then when all of the fighting is done they can move in and take over with out much resistance. Or that I believe is a simplfied version of their plan.

Just another thought… It is known that B4 is to come back from the past. If it is to replace B5 what will they call the show then….B4?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-04-07 11:54:33 EDT
From: BFallin
Posted on: America Online

A LOT OF GOOD THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW TO BEAT THE SHADOWS AND WHERE HAVE
THEY BEEN. THEY BEEN HIDING AND HIBERNATING FOR A 1000 YEARS
WAITING FOR THE TIME TO AWAKEN. THEY HAVE AWAKEN. SHIPS HAVE BEEN
FOUND ON OTHER PLANETS STILL SLEEPING UNTILL DISTURBED.
WE HAVE DISTURBED THEM. WILL THEY BE DEFEATED ONLY ONE MAN KNOWS
AND HE NOTS TELLING SO WHO KNOWS. MAYBE THE “SHADOW KNOWS”

BFALLIN

Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-04-07 15:08:33 EDT
From: RCales
Posted on: America Online

I suppose the old ones that game back would be doing most of the work along with the vorlons
Subj: Re:Shadows & PSI, 1 & the sa
Date: 96-04-07 21:11:36 EDT
From: MrSeeker
Posted on: America Online

If you’re suggesting that there aren’t any Shadows, then who were those critters Sherridan and Talia saw accompanying Morden in “ItSoZ’D”? Who was threatening Ivanova in “Voices of Authority”?

Subj: Re:Shadows & PSI, 1 & the sa
Date: 96-04-07 22:05:34 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

Allen, you have a good point, it seems very possible that such an idea could be plausable, however, we have seen, as MrSeeker pointed out the fact that we have seen shadow people. As for the shadows making a deal with the Centari, spliting the universe, that deal will be broken by the shadows. As for the shadows not coming in, and taking over the universe, well, the shadows lost last time because they moved too quickly, this time the shadows will be patient.

Subj: Minbari
Date: 96-04-08 01:04:06 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

The Minbari are being resorected into human form(according to the religous cast), Delene also said that the Minbari helped defeat the shadows in the second shadow war. What role did the Minbari play in that war? Will we(Humans) play the same role as the Minbari in the up coming shadow war? What is that role?

Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-08 01:17:20 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Doubles qevery decade? Where’d you get this??? Oh yeah, I’m not religious either, in case you haven’t noticed…

Subj: Re:Minbari
Date: 96-04-08 01:19:04 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Ummm…it’s my belief that the Mimbari will save our @$$ is several needed occaisions in the war (look what they did for Sinclair this week =)

Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-08 15:58:33 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

I heard that it took 2000 thousand years for the world’s knowledge to doulbe. It then took 1000 thousand years for the world’s knowledge to double. Then it took 500 hundered years, and so on.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-08 16:04:34 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

There is a book called “HyperSpace” by a guy named Kaku. Basically a physics book, but near the end, he quotes a study that was done to show that to be true. Good book in general, the last chapter which deals with possible things to come and the development of civilazations is very good.
Subj: Re:Ansolaris no meaning
Date: 96-04-08 16:05:20 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Right, that’s the way it WAS. However, at our current rate of development, it’s an order of magnitude every decade. That rate could increase as well!
Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-10 20:20:28 EDT
From: SHedr24734
Posted on: America Online

The year 2000 is the last year in the current millenium and the last year in the 20th century. The next millenium and next century beings January 1, 2001. Take a close look at the calendar.

There is nothing particularly special about this time except what we humans make of it. It has no special significance astronomically- that is, there is NO evidence of any particular disasters imminent, no known asteroids going to strike, no planetary alignment…..

In other words, as far as the universe is concerned, it’s just a number.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-10 22:15:22 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

We could argue of when the new millenium starts (2000, or 2001?), but you are right…besides, if things were exact, I have been told that it is now the year 2003. Jesus’s birth was an approximation…and evidence has been shown that Jesus’s birth may have been as much as seven years before we usually say it is…

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-11 00:20:47 EDT
From: SHedr24734
Posted on: America Online

I believe it was OMNI a few years back that had an article and a calendar that strongly suggested we reorder our calandar so that the moment Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon would be the new calendar starting time. It’s one of the most documented events in history, and we know it down to the millisecond.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-11 07:25:47 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Hmmm….sounds interesting….

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-12 23:25:20 EDT
From: Don at B4
Posted on: America Online

No disaster other than all the worlds computers will believe that the year is 1900, as of this moment they cannot differentiate between centuries when tracking time. Think of the havoc this will play in the insurance industry and the maturation of polocies.

Subj: Re:Millenium
Date: 96-04-13 01:36:15 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< I believe it was OMNI a few years back that had an article and a calendar that strongly suggested we reorder our calandar so that the moment Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon would be the new calendar starting time. It’s one of the most documented events in history, and we know it down to the millisecond. >>

Oh, great. Then a few decades from now, somebody will be writing “it was 130 A.M.” and we’ll have to stop a minute to figure out whether they mean “ante meridian” or “after moon.”
Subj: Re:Millenium
Date: 96-04-14 18:25:36 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Oh, great. Then a few decades from now, somebody will be writing “it was 130 A.M.” and we’ll have to stop a minute to figure out whether they mean “ante meridian” or “after moon.”<<
B.A.: Before Apollo,
A.L.: Anno Luna(or After Landing)

Subj: Re:VORLONS////SHADOWS
Date: 96-04-15 18:46:22 EDT
From: Drklord39
Posted on: America Online

I think that the Vorlans are a child race to the Shadows….not completly shadows themselves but another step down on the evolutionary scale

Subj: Re:VORLONS////SHADOWS
Date: 96-04-15 21:40:22 EDT
From: JOKERr808
Posted on: America Online

What ever they are, I DON’T trust them at all.

Subj: H.P. Lovecraft
Date: 96-04-15 21:55:25 EDT
From: BiGuyOKC1
Posted on: America Online

Has anyone else noticed the similarites in the Shadows to Lovecrafts OLD ONES. Lovecrafts old ones existed long before man arose and ruled over earth and have been prophesized to return and rule again. Both the mythology and planet names seem somewhat familiar. Plus Delynn and others refer to them as the old ones. Haven’t seen any posts on this any lovecraft fans out there have any opinions?

Subj: Re:H.P. Lovecraft
Date: 96-04-15 23:10:06 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Has anyone else noticed the similarites in the Shadows to Lovecrafts OLD ONES. >>

It is a known fact that J.M. Straczynski is a fan of H.P. Lovecraft. Lovecraft often had stories about “old ones” who had been defeated and confined by the later “gods,” only to find ways to escape their prisons and wreak unspeakable horrors upon the modern world. Sounds like the Shadows to me. But maybe JMS has a twist to it that we haven’t seen yet.

By the way, are the “lurkers” on the threshold?
Subj: Re:H.P. Lovecraft
Date: 96-04-16 19:17:22 EDT
From: BiGuyOKC1
Posted on: America Online

Or perhaps the colour out of space. Or the shambling mound? Nice to see someone else know what they are talking about

Subj: O’ HARE INTERVIEW – HERE NOW
Date: 96-04-21 11:22:50 EDT
From: SciFiTalk
Posted on: America Online

Since our very first airing of Sci-Fi Talk radio program to the present, Michael O’Hare
has been a part of our history appearing for a series of interviews. We recently about
his two part episode, War Without End and his future on Babylon Five..

T^2: When did you find you that you were coming back to do an episode of Babylon
Five ?

MO: I heard hints about it in the fall,but I found out about it in early winter through
my agent.

T^2: What kind of details did you get ?

MO: I knew that it was going to be a two parter and I didn’t know much beyond that.

T^2: What was it like the very first day ?

MO: People were very nice to me. It was like old home week. Very friendly. Very nice
indeed.

T^2: I understand that some of the guest stars from Babylon Squared, Tim Choate
and Kent Broadhurst were in the episode ?

MO: It was great to see them. Tim is a wonderful actor.

T^2: The basic plot without giving anything away ( Michael laughs) is that Ambassador
Sinclair returns to Babylon Five to bring back Babylon Four through time ?

MO: It does have to do with time travel..I’m not going to give more than that away.
I’ve been a good boy all these years without giving away all of Joe’s ( Michael
Straczynski ) plots and I will be honorable to the last on that. Watch it this month.

T^2: I heard all went well between you and Bruce Boxlietner

MO: Oh Yeah, he’s a great guy.

T^2: What will we see as far as Sinclair and Sheridan together.

MO: You’ll see us kidding around a little bit and working together. I can’t think of any
other way to put it.

T^2: Did you go through a costume change ?

MO: I’m dressed like a waiter in an Arabian restaurant.

T^2: What kind of climate is Minbaur ?

MO: Very ethereal..a little bit like the land of OZ..The look of it but I didn’t see alot of it
since alot of post production work goes into that afterwards. I can only gather what’s
written in the script describing the matte scenes and all that.

T^2: How has Sinclair changed since last we saw him ?

MO: He’s more reserved..he’s more spiritual..he’s on the other side of the post
traumatic post syndrome that he was dealing with in the first season…he’s more
spiritual, I would repeat that again. More calm, if you will.

T^2: Do you think that his experience with the Minbauri was a major event in his life ?

MO: Yes, I think so. It’s come out already and I’m not telling any tales out of school to
say that his soul is a Minbauri soul. There is one early scene in the two episodes that
implies that the Sinclair character has been involved in very spiritual stuff beyond
Ranger work.

T^2: Would you call this an action packed episode ?

MO: They pulled out all the stops. Very strong visually with alot of special effects.

T^2: It had come out in the internet and in our newsletter that you had shot the
episode in January and how things were on the set.

MO: I am amazed..It’s a little scary to me, the internet..alittle like living in a small
town. I hear Michael O’ Hare bought a pack of Quaker Oats, the other day.

T^2: Joe Michael Straczynski seems to use the net real well.

MO: I gather alot of them (Producers) are on the net these days..But Joe was one of
the first ones to do it.

T^2: Would you consider being on line ?

MO: Every now and then, when I hear rumors I dispel them. But I
stay away from the net. But may everyone have a good time, God bless them.

T^2: How do you think this season is going ?

MO: I think things are going well and Bruce does a bang up job…an excellent job.

T^2: Anything going on these days ?

MH: Besides being the voice for Volvo as the back up guy to Donald Sutherland, I
have made alot of public appearances. I will be in Williamsport in May ( see calendar )
and England in June. One advantage that they have in England is that they show the
entire season in order. It helps build momentum for the show. It’s very popular in
England.EMAIL SCIFITALK@AOL.COM

Subj: Hologram
Date: 96-04-21 18:13:02 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

How big can the holograms from the planet be? Can it project a hologram of B-5 for a decoy?

Subj: Re:wanting vs self-knowledge
Date: 96-04-21 22:10:49 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

MythosLink,

The younger races are only less advanced in terms of technology. Ya know, ships and other types of manufactured weaponry, etc. The Shadows have a very important reason for being interested in the younger races. Although the Shadows seem superior in nearly every respect to all of the other races, even the Ancients and First Ones, they lack the one thing they need in order to achieve their ultimate goal. So, while most B5 fans think that the Shadows can’t possibly acquire anything from the younger races, they actually can. They are far superior technologically to almost every other race, but the *minds* of the younger races, particularly the Humans……..therein does the true power lie.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Elements of Victory
Date: 96-04-21 22:21:27 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

MythosLink,

I think that the Vorlons and at least some of the other First Ones will fight on the side of the Army of Light in the Shadow War. No single race can defeat the Shadows (as has already been stated many times), but we do know that the Shadows are afraid of an alliance of races.
The Great Machine on Epsilon-3 may be mobile after all. It seems apparent that the Machine was built by one of the Ancient races, so it has probably been around for at least 10,000 years. The surface of Epsilon 3 is barren and rocky, perhaps suggesting that the Great Machine has become encased in a shell of cosmic dirt, if you will. It just may be that at some point the Machine will cast off its outer covering and become mobile. This theory has been discussed quite a few times in the past.
I am curious as to how the Army of Light would be able to get its hands on an undamaged Shadow ship. Delenn has said that once a Shadow ship targets a victim, it never stops, never slows down, never gives up until that target is dead. Any Shadow vessels they might encounter out in open space would have to be destroyed quickly, or else the Shadow ship would destroy whatever ship had come to capture it. The only way I can think of for the Army of Light to get its hands on a Shadow ship that hasn’t had a living being merge with it yet would be to go to Z’ha’dum itself and capture a brand new Shadow ship. This would be exceedingly difficult, as you can well imagine.
In any case, it’s not the technology of the Army of Light that will ultimately defeat the Shadows. The true power lies within the races who make up the Army of Light themselves. You’ll learn more about what I mean by this in “Ship of Tears.”

RPillow

Subj: Re:Also
Date: 96-04-21 22:40:19 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

HFMoon,

Recall that in “Dust to Dust,” Mr. Lindstrom told G’Kar that dust was made to enhance the latent telepathic gene in most *humans.* No one knew the effect it would have on Narns, a species that everyone assumed had no telepaths at all. G’Kar explained that the Narns did once have telepaths, but that they were all killed. He also said that the surviving latent telepathic gene had never been strong enough in the Narn population to breed a natural telepath since the other telepaths were killed off. Just because we haven’t seen any evidence of G’Kar’s supposed new telepathic status doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. We still don’t know how long ago the natural Narn telepaths were killed off. However long it has been, the Narns have probably totally ignored telepathy since no natural telepaths have been born. Therefore, G’Kar would have no idea how to go about developing his supposedly new telepathic powers. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens with him regarding this matter.

RPillow

Subj: Re:shadow war
Date: 96-04-21 22:42:17 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Songokuten,

I’m not saying that the First Ones who went beyond the veil became humans, although it’s possible that some of them did. I *am* saying that we’ll evolve again, and this is pertaining to B5 and also to what we as Humans presently refer to as reality.

RPillow

Subj: Re:More On Reality Continued
Date: 96-04-21 22:48:10 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

I am aware of all of the information that you posted in your long 2-part message and I share your beliefs. I have done nearly 20 years of research into this and have absolute proof that almost everything that you said is true, though I obtained some of this information through means that non-believers would consider impossible. I am interested in sharing ideas and beliefs with you. E-mail me when you read this message and I’m sure that we’ll be able to have some *very* interesting and stimulating conversations, not to mention utterly informative. The Truth is much more shocking than any fiction. I look forward to hearing from you.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-21 22:54:41 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xtreme9999,

I take it that you are an atheist. If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me. In any case, we will soon be visited by life forms from other planets, solar systems, and galaxies. The turn of the millenium really doesn’t have anything to do with it, at least not by the way that we Humans currently perceive time. Time is an incorrect and nonexistent concept. It was introduced to us to keep us from learning the Truth about ourselves too quickly. Time does not pass, consciousness passes. I know, I know, you probably think I’m a nutcase too. That’s your own misfortune. If you don’t wise up soon, you’re going to be in for a rude awakening that will be so horrible that you can’t possibly comprehend it.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-04-21 23:05:24 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

It’s perfectly natural to doubt that there will be this all-encompassing crisis in the near future. After learning what I have learned, I question whether I really believe it is going to happen or not every day. Deep down, however, I am absolutely sure that it will occur. We do not joke in the face of prophecy. Doubt and self questioning are part of what makes us what we are, as is the relentless drive to improve ourselves and search for the Truth.
As for B5 being just a TV show, that is partially correct. While B5 itself is only a sci-fi series, the *story* that JMS is telling through B5 is not fiction. Look at it this way, we Humans perceive time, truth, and reality as that which has already taken place or can be physically touched or logically proven. Things that have not occurred yet or that we perceive as being too outlandish are generally cast away as fantasy or madness. Being an atheist, JMS probably does not really believe that the story he is telling through B5 can or will actually happen, but I have proof that it can and will. I wouldn’t have told the story exactly the same way that JMS is telling it because I am a Christian, but the conclusion would have been the same. All I can tell you is to open your minds to the endless possibilities that the Universe holds, for a great change is coming, and sooner than many of us think.

“How will all of this end?”
“In Light.”

RPillow

Subj: Re:This “coming crisis” stuf
Date: 96-04-21 23:07:53 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

I’ll stand by your side when the ultimate battle comes. It is my destiny to do so (well, a part of my destiny). Call me a visionary, for that is what I am.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-21 23:15:32 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xtreme9999,

It’s too bad that you are a religious cynic. That attitude may eventually destroy you, but it is your right to believe what you choose. You claim to think about things LOGICALLY. Logic is fine, but by trying to be logical all the time you close your mind to infinite possibilities. I have dubbed this condition “tunnel vision.” You only look at what you can see, prove, or touch, and anything that falls outside those categories you dismiss as impossible or foolish. Tssk, tssk, that’s a sad way to live.
You also claim to know exactly what the A.D. and B.C. in our calendar is based on. Were you aware, however, that the monk Dionysius Exiguus, who introduced the present custom of reckoning time by counting the years from the birth of Christ, miscalculated four to six years later than the actual date? This means that our understanding of time is incorrect by the same number of years. It really doesn’t matter, however, since time itself does not exist. Think about it.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-22 07:20:15 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Why is it that so many religions say that if you don’t believe in them, you’ll get screwed? I’ll stick to what I know and can perceive, thanks….

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-22 07:21:24 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

If knew of the miscalculation…but I thought it was seven years..=)

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-24 17:13:06 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xtreme9999,

Religious people don’t think that if you don’t believe in us you’ll get screwed. We don’t want you to believe in us, we want you to believe in God. It is He who will decide if you are ultimately screwed or not. I just wanted to clear that up for you.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-24 20:37:18 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

OK I need to get in on this. Logically no one human can or will ever know everything that is going on in the universe. (of course I could be wrong, because this theory creates a paradox) Anyways think of the human mind, better yet think of your mind. Your eyes do not see your mind sees, you do not touch your mine touches, you don’t hear, taste, or smell, your mind does. In a sense your mind makes up your own reality, what one person sees as red the other can see as blue, or green. What one sees God another sees as myth. Reality is what you make it. While you are still thinking about the mind, think back to your childhood. You are remembering. Maybe thats all you have, maybe you where just put on this planet last week with fake memories, yesterday, a second ago, a millisecond, or no time at all. So there could be no such thing as reality or time.

Thanks for listening to my abstract theory.
Xebecian

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-24 22:06:08 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Nope, SOME religious people do-depends what religion you are. I get told that I’ll “burn in hell” by people at my school all the time.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 02:08:09 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

If we were to judge the world’s Muslims by Farrakhan, or the world’s Jews by certain Zionists (or even certain old testament figures), you’d probably come to the conclusion that these were pretty evil religions. But in fact fanaticism is part of human nature, and is bound to rear its ugly head in a certain percentage of people who make a conscious decision to believe in anything. The only sure protection is to believe in nothing, and history hasn’t shown that people who do that turn out to be the nice guys.
One of the things that bothers me about B5 actually is the inconsistency in Delenn’s religion. I mean, as explained by her, it’s garden-variety pantheism: everything is a part of everything else, the totality of the universe is God, and the universe is trying to understand itself by enacting this drama. But true pantheism doesn’t lend itself to violent causes like the one to which she’s committed herself. Are not the Shadows as much a part of the Universe made manifest as everything else? If their age has come (and how can she know one way or the other, except by passively waiting to see what happens?), should she not embrace that cosmic direction of the universe? Pantheist religions faithfully followed advocate non-partisanship. The Shadows are only worth fighting if there is an objective good and evil to the universe and all things are not ultimately as right, seen in the proper light, as all other things.
On a literary level, this is probably due to lack of thought on JMS’ part. But I think we can explore it internally nonetheless: can it be that this theological essence of Delenn’s religion predates Valen/Kosh/interference by the Vorlons? I more or less understood that Delenn’s culture/religion-in-its-current-form was constructed 1000 years ago during the last Shadow war. So the whole “fight the shadows” thing could have been written in to a older, previously pantheistic religion and these theological inconsistencies were never fully explored… perhaps because her ancestors were so overawed by the sight of Vorlons? But I personally think Delenn is brighter than this, that she ought to have asked herself by now, “Why is proper to fight the Shadows if my religion says that they and we and everything else are all equally part of the universe made manifest?”

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 15:37:49 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

I don’t know….I think Delenn sees some of the universe as being different from her religion…some of it she doesn’t take seriously-she lied to John over dinner, remember? Last season it was said that calling a Minbari a liar could result in a blood feud……

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 16:45:21 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xebecian,

Thanks for posting your abstract theory. It’s nice to know there are more people thinking along those lines.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 16:47:48 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Xtreme9999,

Good point. There are those more *extreme* religious fanatics running around out there. The bottom line is what you believe when you have to stand before God at the moment of your judgment. That will be the defining moment of your continued existence or your eternal damnation.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 17:00:35 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Mythophile wrote,

<<But true pantheism doesn’t lend itself to violent causes like the one to which she’s committed herself. Are not the Shadows as much a part of the Universe made manifest as everything else?…..>>

You are correct, but I think that you have overlooked a few very important things. Are you familiar with the religion Zoroastrianism? Its philosophical and moral teachings concern the endless war between the forces of good and evil. The Shadows (so far as we know) represent the evil and darkness of the Universe. The Ancients, First Ones, and races in the Army of Light naturally represent the force of Light in the Universe. It is destined that Light and Darkness must fight each other over and over again for all eternity. It is the ultimate dichotomy of the Universe, one cannot exist without the other. Have not God and the devil been at war with one another since Lucifer and 30% of the angels were cast out of Heaven?

The struggle between Light and Dark will continue as long as life exists in any form. This is why Delenn has not accepted that the Shadows’ time has come. There must always be beings allied on the side of Light to battle the darkness, and Delenn is most likely one of these people.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 22:37:54 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< Last season it was said that calling a Minbari a liar could result in a blood feud……>>
Yeah, Delenn isn’t a liar the way Spock wasn’t a liar. What about that whopper to Mr. Endowi in Matters of Honor, for mere starters. (Actually, I was thinking of the one at the end, not the one at the beginning. Sigh. Good old honest Delenn.) Calling a Minbari a liar results in a blood feud kinda the way Newt calling Clinton a liar results in a pummelling of Newt. “Yeah, it’s true, but don’t SAY it!”
Let’s not even talk about Delenn’s lies of omission. To me, any culture that claims to praise truth, that lies shouldn’t be uttered, but places no moral restriction on some of the misconceptions Delenn’s omissions have deliberately placed in others’ minds is just engaging in total hypocrisy. (Well, no one’s as good as their principles, but does it bother anybody else that she seems to have no problem with this sort of thing?)

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 22:43:40 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Are you familiar with the religion Zoroastrianism? >>
Good point, RP, but Delenn by her own admission (unless… well, see last post; this is Delenn we’re talking about here) is a good old fashioned pantheist. Zoroastrianism is dualism, which is completely different. Nothing in Delenn’s religion suggests an Ultimate Good and an Ultimate Evil facing off; it ought to be for her the ultimate heresy. And I don’t think she attaches much theological significance to the Vorlons and Shadows.
To someone who did, however, the model would seem to be neither Theism nor Dualism, but something kinda along the lines of Norse religon or Satanism – where the early gods, the true makers of everything, are the bad ones who must be fought.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-25 22:53:31 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Well…she HAs become part human…and she has been ousted from a respectable place in the Manbari Empire..so I guess she free to do what she wants..but still, it’s weird, because she’s from the religious caste….

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-26 00:10:33 EDT
From: CPamir
Posted on: America Online

You know, basically from the very beginning the Shadows have been looked upon in an evil cast. Could there be more to this, or are they truly one-dimensional. On B5, everything seems to change. At first the Narn were the aggressors upon the Centauri, then the Centauri became the bad guys, and the Narn good. Could this happen with the Shadows and the Vorlons. Is there a deeper reasoning why the two are actually battling it out. You know, in ancient greek mythology, the oldest gods were defeated and transformed into monstors like the Kracken and Medusa before finally being destroyed by the hands of mankind. It would be interesting if this were the case with the Shadows. They too once being supreme and “good” to their creations before new “gods” had arrived, defeated them in ancient times and transformed them into monsters “spiders and other wicked creatures” before being destroyed by mankind in the struggles of 1000 years ago to the present.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-26 04:15:28 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

My gut reaction says that we’ll find out that the Shadows do indeed have something to say for themselves, but not enough to cause a whole inversion or realization that our heroes have been on the wrong side… but it would be fantastic if it happened.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-04-27 21:37:03 EDT
From: AnnaAsher
Posted on: America Online

Check out the Shadows folder…JMS mentions that we don’t know WHY the Shadows are doing what they are doing. I have always assumed that it’s just because they are evil and that’s what evil things do… it will be interesting to see how they explain it. Although I’m not sure any reason would excuse them….

Subj: sorry….
Date: 96-04-27 21:38:57 EDT
From: AnnaAsher
Posted on: America Online

not the Shadow’s folder, the Za’ha’dum folder. Sorry!!!

Subj: Thoughts and stuff
Date: 96-04-28 00:28:57 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Ok, lemme see…

I gotta say one thing about all this religious talk flying around. I’m what you call one of those agnostics. I believe there is a creator, a life form, so to speak, so far above us that we can only comprehend it’s existance by calling it a God.
I annoys me to no end when people say things like “if you don’t beleieve in Christ or God your going to burn in hell”. In other words, I hate all religions equally, while at the same time, loving them all (sounds weird, but it makes sense when you think about it). Religion is nothing more than a belief that one holds on to to give what they percieve around them ultimate meaning. However, I chose to believe that the universe around us, based soley on the fact that it exists (to my percetpion atleast, and since that’s all I will ever have to go on, it will have to do!), that fact that it exists in and of itslef gives itself meaning. I don’t need a God to give it all meaning. It gives itself meaning.
Now, please don’t take this as an attack on religion, any or all. I have nothing but respect for anyone else’s religious beliefs. I have no problem at all with whatever you believe (unless your killing people for it, then I have a problem with it, I may not be right about it, but that’s the risk you take when you make a stand). I just don’t see why people have to have a religion to make their life meaning something. To me it’s a weakness to an extent.
Does anyone else know what I mean, because reading what I just wrote, it kinda dosen’t make sense to me! (furtunately, I know exactkey what I mean, so even if my expresiion of those ideas is not 100% dead on, I still have the undersdtanding myself)
Oh yeah, there is something more to the Shadows then just pure evil. I don’t believe pure evil for evil’s sake can exist. There’s always something else hidden behind the veil of the evil, no matter how thick that veil might be. And as for the Vorlons, I’m almost more concerned about them than the Shadows. Just a gut feeling there though!
Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we win?
Date: 96-04-28 14:12:13 EDT
From: MDKSKI
Posted on: America Online

It seems that the only way the “Light Forces” will wins is if another powerful race pops up and decides to help. Other wise it is Gorilla time and humans become an endagered species.
And is it my imagination or have the only two ships to be destroyed by the White Star have been vaporized by her jump engines only.
Subj: Re:Shadow War-how will we wi
Date: 96-04-28 22:51:10 EDT
From: Xtreme9999
Posted on: America Online

Hmmmm…well, let’s see…how we’ll win…..the Narns will all die sacrificing themselves against the Shadows…in the preview for “Ship of Tears” we saw the WhiteStar destroy a Shadow….I imagine the Centauri will buy some time by being wiped out…what else…hmmm….

Subj: Jump Gate Weapon
Date: 96-05-01 17:32:04 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

Sure…fire a probe with a mini-jump gate into the other force’s gate

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?/RPillow
Date: 96-05-01 17:35:07 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

You’re just the kind of xian Ansolaris was talking about. She’s not in for any rude awakening for being an agnostic or an atheist…unless you xians (who DO have your fingers on the nuke buttons) choose to bring about a nuclear war in order to fulfill your own stupid prophecies.

Subj: Re:H.P. Lovecraft
Date: 96-05-01 17:37:07 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

Sure have…also notice that they seem to live in the “spaces between the spaces”.
Ellison’s input, no doubt.

Subj: Re:VORLONS////SHADOWS
Date: 96-05-01 17:38:27 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

Maybe the Shadows are the bad mistakes of the Vorlons come back to haunt them

Subj: Re:Ansolaris
Date: 96-05-01 17:40:57 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

It’s not even just a number to the universe….HUMANS number things. The Universe doesn’t care.

I’m all for starting our calendar on Lucy’s (a. afarensis) birthday.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?/RPillow
Date: 96-05-01 21:47:27 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I just wanted to inform everyone I’m not a female! I mean, yeah, I watch All My Children, but that dosen’t make me a girl, does it?!? :)
Subj: Re:Jump Gate Weapon
Date: 96-05-02 01:04:43 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Sure…fire a probe with a mini-jump gate into the other force’s gate<<

Yikes, this is starting to sound like the plans to use three nuclear weapons per battalion in the invasion of Japan…..

Subj: Vorlon tactics
Date: 96-05-03 15:05:18 EDT
From: Rep Newt
Posted on: America Online

The Vorlon cruisers are impervious to the Shadow slicer beam as long as they stay pointed at the Shadow cruiser, don’t believe me? Wait fot it…

Subj: si cor
Date: 96-05-08 21:11:10 EDT
From: LTetirick
Posted on: America Online

the phsycics can defeat the shadow ships by making it so that they can’t control them.
Subj: Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-15 21:15:25 EDT
From: Rep Newt
Posted on: America Online

If the Shadow warship/pilot was afraid of Bester’s telepathic ability, then why weren’t the Shadows afraid of the Vorlons? It’s already been established that Kosh is very telepathic, contacting Sheridan through dreams many times. But, the Vorlon ships attacked with brute force and the Shadows fought back, seemingly impervious to any telepathic weapon a Vorlon might possess. What’s going on? Was Kosh a unique Vorlon? Do the Vorlons have less telepathic abilities then humans?

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-15 23:10:34 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Wow, that’s a very astute observation, one that eluded me. Yes, Kosh was obviously an extremely powerful telepath, having come to G’Kar when he attacked Londo, then coming to Sheridan as the Shadows were killing him. Obviousy VERY powerful. It seems a rather safe assumption that Vorlons in general are powerful telepaths, assuming evolution ran it’s natural course with them, being one of the more ancient races, they would almost have to be much more powerful than human telepaths. I would guess the Shadows were useing human telepaths as pilots because they were the easiest to get at, control and manipulate. That’s my guess.

But yeah, why would the Vorlons attack with brute force if all they need to do is use some telpathic abilities and block the Shadow vessel’s pilots? I can offer only two solutions: (1) It was a slip-up on JMS’s part, an oversight, an inconsistency. I doubt this, judgeing by the extreme care and painstakeing way the rest of the story has unfolded. I find it VERY hard to believe he, or any other writers on the staff would have made such a huge mistake. (2) Phsyic abilities are not quite as great a weapon against the Shadows as Sheridan and the rest of the council now think it is. IT may be that it’s one weapon, but not enough to defeat the Shadows on it’s own.

Just my opinions, but they are the only two possilities I can see right now. Also, there still does exist the possiblity that the Shadow ship did not attack the White star in Ship Of Tears, not because Bester blocked the pilot, but rather that he COMMUNICATED with the pilot. It still is possible Bester is working for the Shadows, altough I find this also very unlikely. However, we all know he has his own agendas, and maybe being blown out of hyperspace by a shadow ship at that time was not part of his plans (which I think likely!), so maybe he made a deal with the pilot, or told the pilot somehing that would make it stop, who knows, but maybe it wasn’t so much a weapon as a double-cross.

Oh well, donwloading WWE part 2 right now. I CAN’T WAIT!!!
Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-16 00:52:31 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

There’s one thing you guys are overlooking, and that’s the fact that no matter how telepathic Vorlons are, they are, first and formost, Vorlons.

It could just be that only telepaths of certain races affect Shadow vessles. Humans, Narns(though they might not be as useful, after all, they were all destroyed)

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-16 18:23:51 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

That is makeing the assumption that telepaths differ from race to race, which would make little sense because the likelyhood that they could not effect each other very much would go up greatly, and we know they can effect each other very much (the Minbari telepaths blocking Bester a few episodes back, the Centauri telepath saying humans were easy to scan or something like that during the black rose killer episode), so, the more logical conclusion is that all races’ telepathic abilities are of the same type, just not necasserily on the same level as each other. Therefore, all the arguments from before still stand, if we go with most reasonable assumptions (mind you, this dosen’t at all mean I’m right, just that my conclusions are most reasonable in this instance alone!)
Subj: Re: Planet in B5’s space.
Date: 96-05-16 19:12:26 EDT
From: DNelson811
Posted on: America Online

Not only does the planet exist with its unknown techonology, if I remember correctly the Shadows and the Vorlons and the first races fought the first Shadow war. Ivanava, not sure about the spelling, went on a mission to find some of the remaining first races. Earth and her allies are not alone in this war. There are allies and forces that we have not been seen yet. In addition, B4 is still floating out there in the future. When B4 was discovered last season, if I remember correctly, Sinclair was in charge. Currently he is on Mimbar. Also what about the changes in the ruling body of the Cintari. We can guess all we want, but the shadow war is the war we are all fighting now and forever.

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-16 21:20:00 EDT
From: KBates3918
Posted on: America Online

The assumption that vorlon telepathy is similar to earth, mimbari, centauri telepathy is based on the idea that telepathy is the same no matter what type of creature produces it. But the three younger races (narns too) have a lot in common as physical beings, they are bipeds, breathe oxygen, are affected by alcohol, etc. The vorlons seem to have a very different manifestation in the physical plane, in some ways similar to the shadows – so why wouldn’t their telepathy be different? If this is the case, then perhaps the thought patterns/brain(?) waves of the shadows and vorlons don’t “work” against the others. I think if we knew what it is about vorlons and shadows that are similar, and if these things are what differ from the younger races, we would know why the shadow ships aren’t intimidated by the vorlons’telepathy.

Maybe it has to do with how they project onto the physical plane – Morden may never be alone, but it does seem like other physical beings occupy the space that the shaows do *when they materialize* when he is alone. Perhaps they need a physical being to somehow project them into the physical plane?

KB

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-17 16:22:51 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Some interesting points there. However, one thing I still think is most likely: even if we accept the fact that Vorlon and/or Shadow telepathy is differnet than the younger races, one thing still does not make sense: we know for sure that Vorlons can use telepathy on humans and Narns, and I believe we saw Vorlon telepathy on Minbari and Cantari as well, although I don’t recall the last two for sure. Now, if we know that Vorlon telepathy works on the younger races (which as I said, we have seen that it does), than it is a logical assumption that even if Vorlon telepathy is differnt than the younger races, their telepathic abilities must posess the younger race’s abilities as well. It’s just like when you get a new CPU that’s backwards compatible with older ones. The newer one contains the older CPU’s command structure as a subset of the new structure. Same with telepathy, or so it seems. Therefore, irregardless of physical manifestations (which could, your right!, have alot to do with it), the Vorlons whould posess the same Shadow-bocking abilities as humans.
Now, let me see…

(1) Could be that the Vorlons somehow forgot, or lost the ability that is needed to fight the
Shadows, even though the are far older and more evolved than us. This seems unlikely
to me, but I can’t rule it out.
(2) The Shadows have a differnet telepathic system than any other race, EXCEPT humans.
Humans have something in common with the Shadows which allows them to fight against
them telepathically. Still seems unlikely, but this sounds a little better. Could it be a hint of
something deeper to come?

So, even though I acknowledge that the physical manifestation of the being COULD have something to do with this all, I still think it is a contradiction, either on purpose to hint at something we will learn later, or a mistake (the first I can think of!)
Of course, all my assumptions are based on what we know SO FAR, and what seems to make sense based on that knowledge. It’s MOST LIKELY that we will learn something or a number of things in the future that will make the answer very clear.
Subj: Re:Who wins?
Date: 96-05-18 04:24:10 EDT
From: EMISSARY
Posted on: America Online

Where there’s a shadow there’s a light

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-18 17:47:29 EDT
From: JBRocky
Posted on: America Online

Everybody is missing one very important point. What if the Vorlons were using telepathics. Since they are so far advanced we wouldn’t even know the diffrence. They did do some very nasty damage. And maybe the Shadows fought back because they had no other choice.

Subj: How will we win
Date: 96-05-18 18:33:15 EDT
From: EMISSARY
Posted on: America Online

Remember also, that the Narn “Mind Walkers” defeated the Shadows on their homeworld thousand of years ago (see , I beleive, SoT). Its not a matter of Technology, its something else. Have you guessed yet?

Subj: Re:How will we win
Date: 96-05-18 21:33:38 EDT
From: CDRKyleASG
Posted on: America Online

mind power

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-19 15:30:38 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< …even if we accept the fact that Vorlon and/or Shadow telepathy is differnet than the younger races, one thing still does not make sense: we know for sure that Vorlons can use telepathy on humans and Narns, and I believe we saw Vorlon telepathy on Minbari and Cantari as well… >>

True. However, an important difference seems to be WHEN the Vorlons (or at least, Kosh) have used telepathy on the “younger” races: so far, it has always been while they were sleeping or in a drug-induced, trancelike, receptive state (as in the case of G’Kar). It’s not clear whether Kosh’s appearance as an “angel” for each of the observing races comes from the same source as his telepathy — that may have a different mechanism. It seems that the Vorlon has only communicated via telepathy when people were specially “receptive.” Maybe that’s just been a matter of “politeness,” or maybe it’s a fundamental shortcoming in Vorlon telepathic capabilities. But it definitely CAN be argued that Vorlon telepathy is different, and possibly weaker than that of Humans, Minbari, Centauri, and possibly Narn.

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-19 21:04:45 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

That could be. I hadn’t even considered that! Good point.
Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-19 21:05:44 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Good point there too! Hadn’t thought of that.,
Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-20 02:54:39 EDT
From: ABurroughs
Posted on: America Online

Everybody’s missing the whole point of the Vorlons entering the battle against the Shadows.

Telepathy or not, the Vorlons fought the Shadows only to prove to the younger races that the Shadows could be beaten at a space battle, using conventional weapons.

Whether or not the Vorlons could have used telepathy to confuse the Shadows was a mute point. They had to fight them “straight-up” in order to make it convincing. Had they used telepathy, it may have only caused the younger races with less psychic abilities than the Vorlons to turn away in despair, instead of rallying together for battle.

Alanda.

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-20 18:01:47 EDT
From: CPamir
Posted on: America Online

Good Point

Subj: Humans
Date: 96-05-20 21:14:48 EDT
From: Xebecian
Posted on: America Online

Maybe humans don’t know their own potential. They don’t understand how to use it effectively. If kosh and the vorlons were powerful telepaths why did they need “what’s her name” the orignal telepath on B-5?

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 03:27:14 EDT
From: JCAMPBELLA
Posted on: America Online

Maybe something in the rule of engagement prevented the Vorlons from using telepathy as a weapon-ie a physical attack would call for a 1:1 retalitation, but a telepathic attack would have a much higher price.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-21 12:18:29 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

MythoPhile,

On the contrary, the prophecy that the Grey Council has been awaiting since the last Great War states that the Minbari would unite with the other half of their soul (the Humans) and wage war against the ancient enemy, the Shadows. This to me seems like a clear definition of a battle between Good and Evil. Since Delenn believes she is allied with the side of Light it must be that the Shadows are the Darkness. Since she is of the religious caste, it would seem that Minbari religion does believe in a struggle between Light and Dark.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?/RPillow
Date: 96-05-21 12:22:54 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

Good one! ROFL!! Of course now that I’ve set up E-mail communication with you I know that you’re not a female. Your screen name just struck me that way when I first saw it. Sorry!

RPillow

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 12:26:52 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Rep Newt,

The Shadows may not be afraid of the Vorlons because both races may be on the same level of existence. I believe that in their true forms, both races are pure energy, thought, or soul. In order to fight in the 3rd dimension they both have to “phase” themselves out of their natural place of residence, and they still exist on the same level while here in the 3rd dimension. Telepaths from races that normally live in the 3rd dimension are therefore very deadly to them because they have to diminish themselves somewhat to materialize here. Another possiblity is that Human telepaths are immensely more powerful than telepaths from other races, perhaps because it is our time. Just some thoughts.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 12:30:03 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

I have to point out that Brother Edward was not a telepath and therefore was susceptible to the Centauri telepath’s scan. Trained telepaths have defenses to block scans, although a more powerful telepath can usually override the defenses of a lower rated telepath.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 12:35:06 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris,

Again I have to point out that we have never seen a Vorlon or a Shadow *scan* a Human or any of the other younger races. What Kosh did to Sheridan in ITSoZ and IaE was more a form of thought projection, which is not the same as scanning someone. Delenn and perhaps more of the Minbari seem to have the ability to communicate with the Vorlons on their own level. It’s also worth pointing out that Sheridan and Delenn were the only two people who knew that Kosh was actually “dead” for certain besides the Vorlons. Could this mean that the Vorlons, Minbari, and Humans are more closely connected than anyone knows? Of course I have my ideas on this, but I ain’t telling them here. If you want to know, you know where to reach me.

RPillow

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 12:39:21 EDT
From: RPillow
Posted on: America Online

Alanda,

I believe you are wrong about why the Vorlons engaged the Shadows in battle. They did so specifically at Sheridan’s request in order to give him the victory he needed to organize the other races in the Army of Light. Remember that at the beginning of IaE many of the other races didn’t want to get involved because they didn’t want to provoke the Shadows or because they had rivalries with other races in their sectors of space. With the Vorlon victory, Sheridan now has what he wanted, which was to organize the League, the Narns, and as many of the other races as possible into a cohesive, offensive force.

RPillow

Subj: WE ARE BEIG USED
Date: 96-05-21 14:17:04 EDT
From: ShellyVG
Posted on: America Online

LOOK EVERBODY,IT’S CALLED THE SHADOW WAR FOR A REASON,AND NOT JUST BECAUSE WE ARE FIGHTING SHADOWS.A SHADOW CAN ONLY BE CAST IF THERE IS LIGHT.WELL THE VORLONS ARE LIGHT AREN’T THEY.HMMMM…..MAYBE THEY BEING THE OLDEST OF RACES ARE DIAMETRIC OPPOSITES,OPPONENTS IF YOU WILL,IN THE GREAT STRUGGLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL,AND ALL WE ARE IS PAWN(OR PRIZES)DEPENDS WHICH SIDE IS LOOKING. I MEAN LET’S LOOK AT THIS LOGICLY.THE SHADOWS HAVE USED US(THEY CONTROL EARTH) JUST LIKE THE VORLONS HAVE USED US(BABYL 5)TO FIGHT THERE WAR FOR THEM.SO FAR THE SHADOWS HAVE THE CENTARI AND EARTH GOV. THE VORLONS BABYLON 5 AND THE MEMBARI.WITH THE LEAGUE OF NON ALLIGNED WORLDS SO FAR SUPPOTING THE LIGHTbUT NOT BY MUCH.THINK ABOUT IT!

Subj: Re:Telepathic weapons
Date: 96-05-21 18:20:23 EDT
From: PredatorJi
Posted on: America Online

Maybe the Shadows are only afraid of HUMAN telepaths…..Kosh sure seemed to have a jones on for human telepathic input.

Subj: Re:Humans
Date: 96-05-21 23:02:54 EDT
From: GeronimoDG
Posted on: America Online

I saw somewhere on the Net a Minbari quote to the effect of “Humans are better then they think they are. If they ever realize their true potential . . . .”

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-21 23:20:47 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<Since she is of the religious caste, it would seem that Minbari religion does believe in a struggle between Light and Dark.>>
I’m not arguing that (if you’re responding to the specific weeks-old post that I think you are); I’m only saying that such a religious struggle is inconsistent with the pantheism-101 that we know her religion to be. Certain types of religion lend themselves to holy wars (any kind of theism or dualism) without hypocrisy, and others don’t. On the one hand, Delenn’s religion seems centered on a great religious-tinted war between the goodies and the baddies, on the other it sounds like the sort of thing that makes this view impossible (from the comments on it to Br. Edward, it would be impossible for “us” to be any righter than the Shadows). In fact it has all the earmarks of a traditional pantheism very suddenly tinkered with by Valen and made into something very different. (But then, if Valen happened to be a Roman Catholic or something, as I suspect he may have been, this would make a lot of sense.)

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-22 15:28:48 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>On the one hand, Delenn’s religion seems centered on a great religious-tinted war between the goodies and the baddies, on the other it sounds like the sort of thing that makes this view impossible<<

Good and evil, such wierd little words.

It seems to me that the way Delenn has described the Shadows(i.e., her opinions), she sees them as, if you will, “agents of chaos”. By seeking to destroy the order of the galaxy, they are the “bad guys” to the living galaxy’s Search to define itself through us mortals.
Therefor, her fighting against the Shadows fits quite perfectly into her religion. IMHO, of course.

Subj: A few questions…
Date: 96-05-22 21:48:40 EDT
From: FFL SR388
Posted on: America Online

I have been watching B5 since the pilot movie. I had missed several episodes in the first season, though. I think I have seen all that have aired in the second and third seasons, and I have some questions. First of all, does anyone remember the episode when Ivanova almost died due to a deteriorating orbit? If you do, can you tell me what that thing was that caused her to almost die? Was it one of the Great Ones? Could it help beat the shadows?

Second, remember when Ivonova made conact with one of the Great Ones, and it said “We will be here when the time comes.” Do you think that Great One will just be there, or will someone have to call it.

Third, which episode featured the first Shadow ship, and which one featured the first Shadow?

Fourth and final, which episone had that “seer” that foretold the end of B5? Many of these things came back to me while I watched War Without End I.

Could someone please answer my questions (if they even have an answer at all)?

Subj: Re:Telepathic Weapons
Date: 96-05-23 03:03:21 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< It would seem that Minbari religion does believe in a struggle between Light and Dark.>>

But the Grey Council stands BETWEEN the Light and Dark, BETWEEN the candle and the stars. Watching Delenn mull over those words, I think she may finally be realizing that the words always meant something different from what she thought.

Why is the Grey Council BETWEEN the forces of Light and Darkness?
Subj: Re:A few questions…
Date: 96-05-23 03:14:53 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

I’m going to have to put a printed episode guide by the side of my desk for stuff like this. I don’t have the episode titles handy, but three of your questions are about two first season episodes. Perhaps somebody else can supply the titles. But I can fill in a few details.

<< I have been watching B5 since the pilot movie. I had missed several episodes in the first season, though. I think I have seen all that have aired in the second and third seasons, and I have some questions. First of all, does anyone remember the episode when Ivanova almost died due to a deteriorating orbit? If you do, can you tell me what that thing was that caused her to almost die? Was it one of the Great Ones? Could it help beat the shadows? >>

Actually, it was Catherine Sakai who almost died. The “First Ones” were the same ones that Ivanova contacts later on in your next question…

<< Second, remember when Ivonova made conact with one of the Great Ones, and it said “We will be here when the time comes.” Do you think that Great One will just be there, or will someone have to call it. >>

Hard to say. I would tend to assume they know what’s going on. Maybe they’ll show up on their own.

<< Third, which episode featured the first Shadow ship, and which one featured the first Shadow?
Fourth and final, which episode had that “seer” that foretold the end of B5? Many of these things came back to me while I watched War Without End I. >>

Same episode. This is the first episode where Morden walks around asking what people want, and where Londo is returning a Centauri jewel called “The Eye” to the royal family. The seeress is the sister of a character who gets “killed by a shadow” — in fulfillment of a prediction she had made when she was a little girl. Of course, at the time, everybody had laughed. In the episode, a barely-seen shadow ship zaps the pirate ship the brother is on, trying to escape with The Eye on his own instead of returning to Centauri Prime with it. Somehow, later on, Morden comes into posession of The Eye and hands it to Londo as a “gesture of good will.”

 
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-23 03:22:48 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<By seeking to destroy the order of the galaxy, they are the “bad guys” to the living galaxy’s Search to define itself through us mortals.>>
Sorry, but this is wheel-spinning. The Shadows are equally part of “the universe made manifest” and their actions are equally part of the universe trying to understand itself. Any conflict Delenn chooses to engage in within that framework has to be basically meaningless – just everyone playing out their little roles.

Subj: Re:A few questions…
Date: 96-05-23 11:44:42 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

I finally put together my printed list of episodes (thanks for goading me into doing it). :)

“Mind War” was the episode in which Talia’s old flame Jason Ironheart “becomes” a super-duper telekinetic. It was also the episode in which Sinclair’s girlfriend Catherine Sakai decides to go prospecting at Sigma 957 — misunderstanding cryptic warnings from G’Kar to stay away from that area of space. While she is there, a “First Ones” ship passes through, and its energies cause her ship to lose power. As it turns out, G’Kar had anticipated there would be a need for a rescue, and had sent out several Narn military ships, which arrived just in time. Later, back on B5 G’Kar explains to Catherine that “those who walk at Sigma 957″ are as unmindful of us as we would be of an ant crawling on a flower. By the way, Sigma 957 is where Ivanova eventually goes looking for help from the “First Ones” in “Voices of Authority.” Zog!

“Signs and Portents” introduces Mr. Morden, who wanders around the station asking the ambassadors what they want. It is also the episode in which Lady Ladira, one of the royal family and a powerful clairvoyant, forsees the destruction of Babylon 5, which she telepathically shares with Sinclair (this vision is replayed in “War Without End, Part 1″, after which Sinclair vows not to let it happen). Meanwhile, Londo has retrieved an artifact — sort of a piece of the crown jewels — called “The Eye” and gives it to Lady Ladira’s brother, who has designs on becoming the next emperor. However, the brother has arranged for space pirates to fake a kidnap and ransom scheme. Once he is aboard the pirates’ ship, they take The Eye and threaten to kill him. But suddenly a mysterious, spikey, black ship appears out of nowhere and neatly slices the pirate vessel in half. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Morden returns The Eye to Londo as a gesture of good faith. Only in later episodes, looking back, do we realize that the mysterious ship was a Shadow ship, fulfilling Lady Ladira’s childhood vision that her brother would be “killed by a shadow.”
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-23 15:29:23 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Sorry, but this is wheel-spinning. The Shadows are equally part of “the universe made manifest” and their actions are equally part of the universe trying to understand itself.<<

This seems to me a little like saying that since Cancer cells are still part of your body, they still work towards the good health of your body.

Subj: The One
Date: 96-05-23 22:14:29 EDT
From: FFL SR388
Posted on: America Online

First of all, I would like to thank JVibber for answering some of my questions. Now, I would like to comment on War Without End II. I think that since Sinclair transformed into part Mimbari in the past, and is The One Who Was, and Deleen transformed into part human in the present, and is The One Who Is, wouldn’t it make sense that Sheridan will become part Mimbari in the future, because he is The One Who Will Be?

I just wanted to share my opinion,and anyone who wisshes to discuss it with me, or wants to tell me somthing I might not know, just E-mail me.

Subj: The Grey Council
Date: 96-05-23 22:29:07 EDT
From: FFL SR388
Posted on: America Online

Now, I would like to discuss the Grey Council. Remember the episode when Sinclair remembers The Battle of the Line? Well, in that episode, it was revealed that Sinclair was taken aboard a Mimbari ship. There, he is taken before the Grey Council, and the decide to end the war. I think that is because, somehow, they knew that he would become a very important person. If I have any more ideas, which I probably will, I will post them here.

FFL

Subj: Re:Telepathic Weapons
Date: 96-05-24 01:02:44 EDT
From: MBurrou408
Posted on: America Online

Every balanced object needs a fulcrum. Perhaps the Grey council is that fulcrum , the balance between “light and dark”, “good and evil”?

MaggieB

Subj: Re:WE ARE BEIG USED
Date: 96-05-24 01:23:12 EDT
From: MBurrou408
Posted on: America Online

All concepts are relevant; “Good and evil”, “darkness and light”, etc. In most oppinions one cannot exist without the other.
The term “diametric oppostites” was an apt one for description, although it is not an absolute description. I believe that with further observation we will learn that earth may not so much be being “used” as being asked to make a “choice”, so to speak.
The Vorlons seem to be waiting for us to come to some kind of intellectual growth and the Shadows have a need for us in, perhaps, a slave-like capacity.
The wheel turns full circle and all needs to be balanced. There is more going on here than meets the eye.

MaggieB

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-24 01:53:35 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<<This seems to me a little like saying that since Cancer cells are still part of your body, they still work towards the good health of your body.>>
Ah, but they’e only bad if you’ve chosen sides. “We say a cancer is bad because it kills a man. But we might equally say a doctor is bad because he kills a cancer.” – C.S. Lewis. And “choosing sides” in a fundamental sense is the one thing Delenn’s religion ought to prohibit her from doing (this was my major point originally). The same universe brings forth both her and Shadows. They can fight her because they don’t subscribe to her view of the universe, but she with hers ought to have no idea what side to take. “You must have faith that the universe will come out as it is supposed to.” or something like that – destiny was always very big with Delenn… whatever happens is what’s supposed to happen (this is essentially the worship of success or might and it sounds so much classier when Delenn says it than when Shaw or Marx or the Nazis did). But if everything will come out the way it’s supposed to, in a cosmic sense, than our little struggles lose all significance. How can she be worried about the Shadows when they’ll either win or lose and whichever happens is simply what the universe wants?
Besides, your analogy is spurious. The Shadows are not working, as far as I know, to “destroy the universe! bwahahaha!” and even if they were, they are still a part of that universe and maybe the natural end of that universe is the lesson the shadows have to teach. If we all are “the universe trying to understand itself” then maybe what the Shadows teach the universe is to be an epicurean and know when to leave the table.

Subj: Re:A few questions…
Date: 96-05-25 21:58:01 EDT
From: SarahACnnr
Posted on: America Online

<<“We will be here when the time comes.”

I think what ‘zog’ said was something like, “when its time, come to this place, we will be here.”
I think they need to be ‘called’.

P.S.
Who knew they were french?

Subj: Babylon Squared and WWE 1&2
Date: 96-05-25 22:37:02 EDT
From: Arrghman
Posted on: America Online

In both Babylon Squared and War Without End parts 1 and 2, Sinclar has a flash back of him on B5 with Garibaldi, Garibaldi saying something about the “Fusion reacters are rigged! Get out of here Captain, I know what I’m doing. This is the moment I was born for!” Sinclar leaves, escapes in a shuttle, and then B5 explodes. If Sinclar is now Valen in the Shadow war 1,000 years ago, then this couldn’t have happened. Was this from the alternate future, the one where we say Ivonava sending out that destress call?

Subj: Re:Babylon Squared and WWE 1
Date: 96-05-26 02:43:17 EDT
From: Rushylon 5
Posted on: America Online

” Was this from the alternate future, the one where we say Ivonava sending out that destress call?”

Yep, that’s it.

Rushylon 5

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-26 15:23:15 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>The same universe brings forth both her and Shadows. They can fight her because they don’t subscribe to her view of the universe, but she with hers ought to have no idea what side to take. “You must have faith that the universe will come out as it is supposed to.”<<

And yet any side she does choose is again, “What the universe wants”, so there fore she should pick the side that keeps her alive.

You could actually say that we see Cancer as bad because it seeks to destroy all the other types of cells in the body. If the Shadows seeks the destruction of all the other races, then wouldn’t it be in Delenn’s best interest(morally speaking) to oppose them? And no matter what she does, it still fits into her religion, because it’s always the galaxy trying to “Understand itself”.

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-05-27 16:59:21 EDT
From: CmdrFur
Posted on: America Online

“Like one army using M-16s and the other throwing Stones.”

Yeah, well, if one guy with an m-16 gets hit with enough stones he’ll go down just as well as if he’d been hit by one bullet instead….

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-27 19:44:22 EDT
From: MythoPhile
Posted on: America Online

<< If the Shadows seeks the destruction of all the other races, then wouldn’t it be in Delenn’s best interest(morally speaking) to oppose them?>>
Ah, this is in my best interest, therefore it is right.
<<And no matter what she does, it still fits into her religion, because it’s always the galaxy trying to “Understand itself”.>> Um, isn’t this exactly what I said? Anything she does fits her religion equally well. So how can she have any religious basis for choosing?
Anyway, I have nothing more to say on this, because I’m tired of saying the same thing over and over only to have you pick and choose what to reply to, when usually that reply shows no hint of having read what I said. The folder may change, but some people never do.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-27 21:33:10 EDT
From: Grimlock1
Posted on: America Online

Re:Ansolaris?
Um, I don’t want to sound dumb or anything, but who is she?

Subj: Re:Winning Shadow War…
Date: 96-05-28 18:07:36 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I like that theory cmdrfur, But we’ve got a few M1A battle tanks now, (Vorlons), and of course, Sinclair.

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?ya
Date: 96-05-28 18:09:06 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Ya, who is Ansolaris, I thought I knew all the characters.

Subj: I’m confused….
Date: 96-05-28 22:35:01 EDT
From: PARJAN
Posted on: America Online

Did anyone notice? The device that turned Sinclair into a Minbari is the same device that turned Delenn into half human. If Delenn got the device from Sinclair (in the past) AND Sinclair got the device from Delenn (in the present/future) then when was the device actually built?

This is what I hate about the whole time travel *thing*. No matter what space opera does it they eventually screw up………..

Subj: Re:I’m confused….
Date: 96-05-29 02:25:23 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Did anyone notice? The device that turned Sinclair into a Minbari is the same device that turned Delenn into half human. If Delenn got the device from Sinclair (in the past) AND Sinclair got the device from Delenn (in the present/future) then when was the device actually built? >>

According to series creator Joe Straczynski, the device originally came from Epsilon 3 and went back in time with Sinclair. He wanted to slip in a dialog line to that effect, but with everything else that was going on (and there was a LOT going on), somehow the line never made it into the show.

Subj: Re:I’m confused….
Date: 96-05-29 14:19:02 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

Ansolaris is a MAN, for one thing, and he is the character on B5 who will eventually defeat the Shadows with advanced intellect, spritual enlightenment, and a few neat piece of technology!

Ok, good one!

Actually, I’M Ansolaris, and I am a man, but someone just decided to use RE: Ansolaris as a subject heading a while back from things I had posted. I have nothing to do with B5 exceot that I watch it, am a huge fan, and realize it’s not completely SF.
Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-29 16:15:57 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Ah, this is in my best interest, therefore it is right.
<<And no matter what she does, it still fits into her religion, because it’s always the galaxy trying to “Understand itself”.>> Um, isn’t this exactly what I said? Anything she does fits her religion equally well. So how can she have any religious basis for choosing?<<

Which could be why she has yet to put any religious bend on her part of the conflict.

Or is she not allowed to do anything unless it’s religiously based.

(ohh, I have a bad feeling. Myth, are we agreeing again and not realizing it?)

Subj: Re:I’m confused….
Date: 96-05-29 16:26:40 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>This is what I hate about the whole time travel *thing*. No matter what space opera does it they eventually screw up………..<<

Why is that a screw up? Ever consider that that is exactly the way it was supposed to happen?

One of the confusing things JMS is doing with Time Travel(and man, do I love him for it), is that it is not linear. Many times, there is no “first time” through the loop. The loop just is.

What created the Warp that allowed the White Star to go back in time? Why, the White Star going back in time, of course!

Why did Sinclair/Valen write that letter? Because he had written that letter.

Confusing, yes, but fun if you think about it.

Subj: Oh, sorry Ansolaris
Date: 96-05-29 17:47:57 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I did not have any idea what was going on. I guess you just helped me a little. I thought for sure I was about to get REALLY confused.

Subj: time=confusing
Date: 96-05-29 17:50:11 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

It may not be a screw up at all. Confusing is a better description. But time is an interesting subject and writers like to stump their audiences once in a while so I guess it will all be explained in (time).

Subj: Re:Ansolaris?
Date: 96-05-29 20:43:58 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>This seems to me a little like saying that since Cancer cells are still part of your body, they still work towards the good health of your body.<<

Theoretically, couldn’t that be possible? Cancer is a clump of mutated cells, right, who are not growing how they should, interfere with tissues, or are genetically not recognized by your own normal cells? So suppose the difference between aging and eternal youth is what makes the cancer cells stand out… then they would be working toward your health… as long as they find a way to instantly replace your DNA instead of spreading in the midst of your average cells, disrupting your body as it currently operates…

Nevermind…

Subj: Re:time=confusing
Date: 96-05-29 20:54:03 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

About that time-looping stuff:

I once read a story (I can’t tell you the name) about a guy who got a time machine from his son, who’d come to live in that past (he didn’t need the thing), and then gave the time machine to his son years later. The son wanted to go back in time, and he didn’t need the time machine anymore, so he gave it to his father’s younger self…. So who did all the work of inventing the time machine? NOBODY! That’s the way to get all your best technology; the easy way, from your own time-loop.

That was from my own book, which I haven’t written yet, but it gave me the idea..

Imagine a whole society that has found a way to use multiple time-loops to increase their technology! I think Calvin did a book report this way, too…

Subj: Re:time=confusing
Date: 96-05-29 20:58:11 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Songkuken, that is a great idea, but you might loose me. I found that wwe1-2 were a bit confusing.
If you are reffering to Calvin as in the best comic character of all time, I bet your right. Calvin and Hobbes is a great series of books. As for your book, I hope it works out for ya.

Subj: This time-thingy
Date: 96-05-30 10:54:26 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I guess I should put my two cents in publicly…

WWE was a good episode (taken both havles as a whole), and alot happened that was crucial to the telling of the over-all story. However, to me, it just didn’t stack up to what is to me the standard-bearer for the entire B5 series, that being Severed Dreams.
Whenever an author uses time travel in a story, no matter how well-intentioned and thought out, it always seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out. Basically, because with time-travel, you are dealing with a pehnomena which cannot be comprehened easily, if at all by our linear-thinking minds. That means that you can do anything you like, and it’s valid (also at the same time invalid usually). It just seems far to easy a writing device to me (there a few notable exceptions, Terminator 2 being the big one, which managed to handle the whole concept flawlessly, atleast as far as I could tell).
Now, WWE, atleast to the point I noticed, had no major flaws or paradoxes, except for the ones being pointed out already (like, where did the loop begin?). Of course, if we say that temporal travel opens up a bridge to parallel universes, and allows alternate futures, which is obviously what JMS believes, then it allows the loop to seem endless and closed to someone on the outside, but on the inside, it appears linear, because only one reality is percieved at a given time.
See what I mean? I have a physics bacground, specifically in the theoretical arena, and generally, I understand time travel stories as well as anyone can. However, they just never seem to jive 100%, and WWE with no exception.
Also, in my opinion, WWE seemed a little forced. What I mean by that is that it seemed like an episode JMS felt he had to write, not one that can from the heart. I guess the best way to describe it would be to say it seemed a little cheesy to me.
Now, all of that is not to say i didn’t enjoy it. I most certainly did. It is also not to say that alot did not happen of extreme important. That almost cannot be argued. Maybe it’s unfare to compare episodes, but that’s what I’m basically doing. SD, in my opinion,. was the best so far, and everything gets compared to it in my mind, and WWE did not eclipse it, and I feel it fell a little short.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, and it better not matter, especially to JMS! If he stopped writing this story line, I would cry first, then jump off a bridge (not really, but I REALLY want him to continue!)
Then again, if just my opinion here of one episode made him stop writing the series, was it really worth it to begin with?!?

(Doesn’t that begin to sound like a time-travel story line!!!!?????!!!!????)

B5 rules
Subj: I need to say this…
Date: 96-05-30 11:07:36 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I keep seeing everyone say things like “without light, there is no shadows”, “the Shadows are the other half of the Vorlons, like a yin/yang relationship”, things like that…
WHY?!?!?!? Why can’t there be a purely evil race without the existance of a purely peace-loving race? Why must there always be perfect balance in the universe?

I know, some genius out there is going to tell me about the laws of conservation, and then somehow extend them to emotions. I don’t see it.

If our own planet is any example (and I admit it’s unfair to assume that it is), then it is far easier in believing in the over-all evil in the universe than over-all good.

Some people have even suggested that humans and other such races are actually responsible for the creation of the Shadows, and even the Vorlons. Well, let’s see… that makes some sense if we make B5 a basic re-telling of biblical prophecy, and that the Vorlon are actually angels in heaven, while the Shadows are actually the minions of Satan, and that there is a titnaic war in heaven for the eternal damnation or salvation of human souls (which are, of course, Minbari souls, and then who’s to say other races aren’t intertwined in there as well)? Well now, that story line sounds a little reasonable, but who know’s what’s in JMS’s head?

But please, everyone, stop telling me that without light, there is no shadows. It’s true in physics, yes, not in emotion or intents. All the existance of good and evil assures is a struggle, not the existance of on another!

Ah, sorry, just venting (I’m sick at home, and just wanna stir some things up!)
Subj: Re:time=confusing
Date: 96-05-30 18:31:18 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Imagine a whole society that has found a way to use multiple time-loops to increase their technology! I think Calvin did a book report this way, too..<<

The only problem I’d think is that there’d be no way to actually control the technology. Actually, come to think of it, wouldn’t it all be useless anyway?

Think of this. That time machine, while certainly a great invention, can(will?, was?)never be used by anyone except that one guy. That’s the problem with a loop, it’s usually closed.

 

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-05-30 18:33:54 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Now, WWE, atleast to the point I noticed, had no major flaws or paradoxes, except for the ones being pointed out already (like, where did the loop begin?)<<

This is not a flaw, as long as you look at it as a loop.

Simple answer, it never “Began”, it will never “end”, it simply is. It’s not inconcievable that when playing with TT, certain rules cease to matter, such as causality. JMS, in my opinion, did a superb job of this.

BTW, where did the loop start in Terminator and T2?

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-05-30 18:37:05 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

You make a good point, but………… as I figured it out a little each day, it seemed a bit more interesting and it will be fun to see how this series ends.

Subj: Re:I need to say this…
Date: 96-05-30 18:39:57 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Absolutely. But I would find it disapointing if a race was really evil. Nature lovers like myself understand that creatures do what they want to survive, not because they are evil. Also I would be disapointed if this show turned out to be a battle between Hell’s angels and Heaven’s angels, even though it might make sense.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-05-30 18:41:44 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Oh ya, simple. Hfmoon my man, if you find that a time loop like that is easy to grasp you are probably baked.

Subj: Re:I need to say this…
Date: 96-05-31 03:01:51 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< All the existance of good and evil assures is a struggle, not the existance of on another! >>

Ansolaris, you may not be too far off the mark, in my opinion. Perhaps this is exactly what Delenn means when she says, “The war is never really over.” Perhaps it is not the nature of this battle ever to be won completely, but it must continue to be fought.

A bubble is a very pretty thing to look at, but it exists only because the air pressure inside and the surface tension of the soap film are in exact balance with one another. If the air pressure wins, the bubble explodes, and there is no bubble. If the surface tension wins, the bubble collapses, and there is no bubble. Only in balance can this wonder of nature delight our senses.
Subj: Re:time=confusing
Date: 96-05-31 03:03:52 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< Imagine a whole society that has found a way to use multiple time-loops to increase their technology! … The only problem I’d think is that there’d be no way to actually control the technology. >>

You might be interested in a series of books by Poul Anderson about an organization of “time cops,” whose job is just that — to make sure nobody messes up the time continuum by sending armies into the past, assassinating their own grandparents, etc.
Subj: motivations
Date: 96-05-31 16:11:03 EDT
From: Rep Newt
Posted on: America Online

Why do the Shadows do what they do? If its not territory, what then? Is it there advanced nature that makes them feel they are the ones who should live and control the universe? Is it because they were the first, sentient race? Are they miffed about losing all the time? What???

Subj: Goodvs.Evil
Date: 96-05-31 17:36:22 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Babylons 5’s universe could be one that is constantly fighting the light and dark war. Maybe they fight constantly in their galaxy in order to keep the Shadows out of ours. Now that we can help fight maybe there is a chance to destroy evil forever. Just another thought, maybe at the end of the show we will find that in the B5 universe, of course not reality, that evil men of the past were actually controlled by keepers. That might be why the Vorlons were always there, they needed to keep an eye on guys like sheridan because if a keeper got him and Sinclair or others, they might be powerful enough to throw a world into chaos so that the Shadows could take over. Of course back out here in the real world we know that guys like hitler were just plain nuts.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-05-31 17:47:42 EDT
From: PARJAN
Posted on: America Online

>BTW, where did the loop start in Terminator and T2?

My point exactly……

Subj: Re:I’m confused….
Date: 96-05-31 17:52:33 EDT
From: PARJAN
Posted on: America Online
>>This is what I hate about the whole time travel *thing*. No matter what space opera does it they eventually screw up………..<<

>Why is that a screw up? Ever consider that that is exactly the way it was supposed to happen?

Well I tend to think linear. Once you go back in time you will always repeat yourself. Didn’t Sinclair say “I’m staying behind b/c I already did”. Bingo! He is stuck.

Par

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-01 00:48:23 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>Oh ya, simple. Hfmoon my man, if you find that a time loop like that is easy to grasp you are probably baked.<<

Well, if physics major=baked, and the sum of the squares of the other two side equals my perscrption, then, yeah, I’d say you’re right.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-01 00:49:51 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>>BTW, where did the loop start in Terminator and T2?

My point exactly……<<

And my point….

and my point(says the guy behind me who look’s exactly like me except for the grey hair and who keeps feeding me all of this stuff)

Subj: False Analogies
Date: 96-06-01 01:07:18 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

You know, back when I was in school, it always amazed me how people needed all kinds of neat tricks to remember things. The colors of the rainbow (Roy-G-Biv), notes on a musical staff (Every Good Boy Does Fine and FACE), things like that. It always amazed me because I kept saying: WHY THE HECK DON’T YOU JUST MEMORIZE IT AS IT IS?!?!?

This holds true for analogies as well. For instance, everyone keeps coming up with the analogies (albeit very clever ones!) to describe B5, the Shadows, Vorlons, evil, goodnes, etc., so on and so forth. Why not just state things they way they are (or atleast, the way you percieve them). That seems to me so much less confusing, easier to get your point across.

“Only a man could be so smart as to act so dumb as to make people think he was so foolish as to get everything he want!”

(that really didn’t have much to do with it, but it did in a way, and besides, I like it!)
..Just stirring up the pot some more (and butchering the english language some more!)
Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-01 11:58:46 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Well then you deserve an IQ of about double Einsteins, because time just confuses the heck out of me. But since you undedrstand it better, could you try and explain it to me a little. Not the whole idea of time, but what you think happened in the B5 time loop.

Subj: Re:False Analogies
Date: 96-06-01 12:02:47 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

No offense or anything Ansolaris, but I don’t like you anymore. I kind of thought we were just explaining things the way we percieved it, and besides, still being in school I would like to say
SHUT THE !@?-^&* UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Uhm, just to follow your example, …………..sorry, just trying to stir up the pot a little.

Subj: Re:False Analogies
Date: 96-06-01 20:12:49 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

How should I take that? I couldn’t even tell. Tell you what…
If you meant that the way it actually reads, go F**K yourself A**HOLE.

If you were being fascious, then cool!

And that just further illustrates my point either wayt!
Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-01 21:48:07 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>But since you undedrstand it better, could you try and explain it to me a little.<<

Well, what specifically? Probably, my understanding of JMS’s playing could better be ascribed to my having read alot of books about time travel, but I won’t let that stop the inflation of my ego;-)

Subj: vorlon encouters suits ?
Date: 96-06-02 23:28:25 EDT
From: AGMCDANIEL
Posted on: America Online

I want to know how sinclair got those two encounters suits at the end of “A War Without End” part 2. And what was sinclair building with those colorful things?
and on a final note, B5 is cooler than Voyager ever was!

Matt.

Subj: Re:vorlon encouters suits ?
Date: 96-06-03 18:13:25 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Well, that need colored thing is the Genesis device, and I have no idea, but your right. I don’t even get Voyager’s plot.

Subj: Re:False Analogies
Date: 96-06-03 18:16:11 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Your kidding right, do you even remember what your point was?

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-03 18:17:52 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

I just would not quite understand it any way. But I think what really confuses me is that if time were a loop then how is it that they move through it without going through the past and strait back to the future?

Subj: Re:False Analogies
Date: 96-06-05 16:27:11 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

I remember what my point was. I don’t make a point unless (A) I’m kidding, which I wasn’t this time (although the post WAS meant to be humorous, the point was for real), or (B) I intend to stand behind it 100% until proven wrong. Since (B) has not happened, or a logical attempt has not even been made, and since as I said, (A) was only maybe 50% true, (ok now I forgot THIS point!!) Oh yeah, yes, I remember my original point, and still stand behind it.
Subj: Re:False Analogies
Date: 96-06-06 15:06:49 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Okay then, let’s her it, because after all of this I forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subj: Re:False AnalogiesOHya
Date: 96-06-06 15:09:38 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

Ya I remember now, you were cutting on peoples study habits. Just for good measure. I had an opinion of that BS and I still stand behind it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Subj: Re:False AnalogiesOHya
Date: 96-06-06 17:49:58 EDT
From: Ansolaris
Posted on: America Online

So now you can’t read, as well as being WAY to sensitive about little crap?!?

I was not cutting on people’s study habits (where the hell you got there from I’ll NEVER know). I was saying that people should….Ah never mind, it’s just not worth it.

As far as I’m converned, this thread ends. I figure you’ll probably reply or something, whatever, I won’t. This was basically a waste from the start (even my original point didn’t need to be made, so I guess we can all blame me). I’m done.

 

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-07 20:12:52 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>> SD, in my opinion,. was the best so far, and everything gets compared to it in my mind, and WWE did not eclipse it, and I feel it fell a little short.<<

I liked SD better, too. From my not-so-exhaustive research, it seems that those who are confused by the time travel actually enjoyed the episode more than those who understood everything as it happened.
(Me and my bro brainstorm so many time-travel concepts and ideas that following this was child’s play. We were actually shocked when my mother asked us what was going on during the commercial. It never really occurred to me that time-travel might be confusing.)

Subj: Re:time=confusing
Date: 96-06-07 20:24:59 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>>>Imagine a whole society that has found a way to use multiple time-loops to increase their technology! I think Calvin did a book report this way, too..<<
The only problem I’d think is that there’d be no way to actually control the technology. Actually, come to think of it, wouldn’t it all be useless anyway?<<

Not really useless, but as soon as your super advanced computer hits the market, some wiseguy in a similar loop can get an even more advanced version from the future the instant you introduce the technology to your current society. (because they’d improve it in the future once you bring it to them, so someone else can go get the improved version instantly…)
>>Think of this. That time machine, while certainly a great invention, can(will?, was?)never be used by anyone except that one guy. That’s the problem with a loop, it’s usually closed.<<

Actually, that’s not true. Most loops would likely occur when you have two or more people operating the same time machine in a loop (like that story of a man and his son– two people are more likely to be confused on details than just one person.)

Also, you can have something like a time-Mobius loop. If you create an alternate timeline from the past (provided time has negative curvature– but that’s difficult to explain here), then go to the future, it will have different opportunities than the “real” future. Grab something unique, then go back and undo the change that caused the alternate timeline– but make sure you have this time machine going in a loop or you’ll create a paradox instead of a Mobius-like time loop! Good examples of something *near* this are Back To The Future 2’s alternate 1985 and the Simpson Halloween Special where Homer creates a time machine. For Niven fans out there, it would be like a cross between time travel and the system from All The Myriad Ways. Very close to that system.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-07 20:30:49 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Simple answer, it never “Began”, it will never “end”, it simply is. It’s not inconcievable that when playing with TT, certain rules cease to matter, such as causality. JMS, in my opinion, did a superb job of this.<<

I agree. Usually, tv screws up Time Travel all to heck, but JMS had things just about right. It was a refreshing change of pace from say Timecop (can we say “Boom”?)

>>BTW, where did the loop start in Terminator and T2?<<

T2 actually screwed up near the end. I thought the loop was great, but then the two chips were destroyed, then the Terminators would never have come back, then things wouldn’t have changed, then AM (I’m guessing) would send the first Terminator, the chip would exist, then the second terminator would destroy the chip so none of it ever happened, so nothing would change….
That’s a paradox.
That’s the only part they goofed on, in my opinion.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-07 20:39:00 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Well, what specifically? Probably, my understanding of JMS’s playing could better be ascribed to my having read alot of books about time travel, but I won’t let that stop the inflation of my ego;-)<<

Mine too, of course. But, most of the really strong comprehension comes from a natural need to go over every time flaw in Back..Future, T2 and Timecop and then discuss them with my brother. (We spend lots of time laughing about what should or could have happened.)
Nothing helps learning like finding a way to enjoy it.

And for an explanation, I’ll need two things from you:

First, what perception do you want it from? Second, what part of the loop shall I begin at?

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-07 20:42:28 EDT
From: Songokuten

Posted on: America Online

>>I just would not quite understand it any way. But I think what really confuses me is that if time were a loop then how is it that they move through it without going through the past and strait back to the future?<<

That’s the point– they *do*! It just takes them longer to go through ‘actual’ time than to travel to the key moments. But they don’t even know about it until they’ve started the loop over again, and it’s too late. They are constantly coming back to where they started from, but they never know there is a loop until they’ve done their part in it.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-07 20:57:54 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>That’s a paradox.
That’s the only part they goofed on, in my opinion.<<

No, they just used the “alternate time-line” ideal. That is, it didn’t matter that the super-computer(what was it’s name? Skylark? SkyBox? SkyGuy?) would never be created, nor send the first terminator back, because that had already happened.. Different time-line was created.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-08 01:50:35 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

Another way to look at a time loop is from the standpoint of “virtual particles.” Virtual particles occur in pairs all the time in physics — a bit of matter and a corresponding bit of antimatter. A proton and an anti-proton. An electron and a positron. They come out of nowhere. Spontaneously. Then they recombine. Of course, it takes energy to create a particle/antiparticle pair. But that energy is released when they recombine.

Now, one of the main things that won Richard Feynman his Nobel prize was “Feynman diagrams,” which use the convention that antimatter is the same as regular matter, but travelling backwards in time. So what LOOKS like the appearance of a particle/antiparticle pair is actually the same particle seen going forwards and backwards in time — a LOOP!

 

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-08 21:04:16 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>No, they just used the “alternate time-line” ideal. That is, it didn’t matter that the super-computer(what was it’s name? Skylark? SkyBox? SkyGuy?) would never be created, nor send the first terminator back, because that had already happened.. Different time-line was created.<<

But it was the Terminator who created the “other time line”… That can’t happen because he isn’t *in* the new one, so he can’t *create* it in the first place. That’s the whole problem with it. If you change the past so that you aren’t even born, then you can’t change the past if you don’t exist and you *are* born, so you do change the past so that you were never born… It’s a paradox. Any time travel, even into the future, will ultimately result in some form of loop, a paradox, or well funded project disappearing to never be seen again in this universe. If you affect absolutely nothing, not even the atmosphere of Earth, then maybe you could pull it off with only some slight side effects.

Subj: Please Help Me Out
Date: 96-06-09 16:51:49 EDT
From: PatrickNET
Posted on: America Online

Hi, I have just started watching Babylon 5 and have gotten completely up to date with the show except for one factor, the entire shadows plot.

If someone could me so kind as to explain what they are, how they got here, who they are against, what are their enemies, who are their allies, etc and any related material.

Thanks a whole lot.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-09 22:16:36 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

So what propells them to go faster?

Subj: Re:Please Help Me Out
Date: 96-06-09 22:17:52 EDT
From: CRC2001
Posted on: America Online

The Shadows plot is a major part, too tough for me to explain, actually I’m too tired, sorry.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-10 02:39:40 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>But it was the Terminator who created the “other time line”… That can’t happen because he isn’t *in* the new one, so he can’t *create* it in the first place.<<

Ah, you’ve come across that nasty little word that gives out many headaches to conversers of Time Travel.

“Can’t”

Think of it this way. The Terminator, once it had gone back, was no longer part of the timeline where Skynet existed. By traveling through time, it had ceased to be a part of that future, and was now a part of the past(it’s present). When it changed the circumstnaces around SkyNet’s creation, thus ensuring that SkyNet would never exist, it didn’t matter, because he no longer had anything to do with that time.

My point is that Time Travel, almost by definition, breaks rules, so it’s near point-less to get worked-up when it does break rules. Besides, I still have my doubts that the universe would be endangered by paradoxes anyway. I feel it would be more likely that the Universe would simply work the paradox out, perhaps by simply creating a new time-line(in the Quantum manner)

Subj: Re:Please Help Me Out
Date: 96-06-11 01:17:07 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

Patrick:

I’ll try (deep breath):

The Shadows are one of the “first ones” like the Vorlons. There was a tremendous war a thousand years in the past and the Shadows were driven off, but not destroyed. The Vorlons were instrumental in driving them off (obviously, neither one is dominant) with the help of the Minbari, among others. Veiled references to the Shadows exist in the religious book of the Narns.

Over the years, the Shadows have been gaining strength and infiltrating other governments (the Centauri and Earthers) with the help of “creatures” like Mr. Morden (originally human), who may or may not be working for them of his own free will. It was said that those that would not help them were killed, but until we see what happens with Anna Sheridan later this season, it’s hard to tell if that’s true or not. Of course, this could be said of the Vorlons as well with their use of Jack the Ripper in an earlier eps. Of course, he saw it as being uplifted by gods, but wouldn’t the Shadows give that same impression?

In War Without End (I don’t know where you live, so I won’t assume you’ve seen it), efforts have to be made to prevent the Shadows winning the previous war. Otherwise, instead of coming into the present war with more-limited resources, they would be dominant. (If you think it’s easy to explain this and not give a spoiler…)

A couple of Shadow ships were found in Earth’s solar system and they were still functioning. But they need telepathic beings to operate them, to become one with the macines. Earth Gov knew about it and was performing experiments. Now it seems, they’re also supplying pilots for them via PsiCorps.

I’ve probably left plenty out, but that’s the most I can think of after midnight.

Sher

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-11 19:34:28 EDT
From: GodConsort
Posted on: America Online

The time-travel theory I have is that every time you go back, you’re travelling not BACK in time, but CROSStime..you leave your reality (which is the main one), and the reality you go back to (and it’s future) becomes the new main reality. This, of course, involves the theory that if it can happen, it DOES happen…so, by fine-tuning, you can go back crosstime and reach the future you came from. Simple, huh? =)

Subj: Re:Please Help Me Out
Date: 96-06-11 19:42:24 EDT
From: PatrickNET
Posted on: America Online

Thanks for the help.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-11 22:42:32 EDT
From: SHERzipp
Posted on: America Online

GC:

That’s almost Alfred Bester’s theory in “The Men Who Murdered Mohammed,” that you only travel back in time on YOUR own time line, not time in general. And when you change something in the past, it affects only your future not everyone around you. It still makes me crazy to think about.

Sher

Subj: Re:Please Help Me Out
Date: 96-06-12 00:53:52 EDT
From: JVibber
Posted on: America Online

<< A couple of Shadow ships were found in Earth’s solar system and they were still functioning. But they need telepathic beings to operate them, to become one with the macines. Earth Gov knew about it and was performing experiments. Now it seems, they’re also supplying pilots for them via PsiCorps. >>

Actually, the implication was that the Shadow ships do NOT need telepaths to pilot them. The problem is that telepaths seem to be able to interfere with the connection between the pilot and the ship. So the Shadows were trying the old method: “fight fire with fire.” Put a telepath IN the Shadow ship, and his/her mental shielding might make the pilot/ship link immune to interference from other telepaths.
Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-16 15:58:01 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>So what propells them to go faster?<<

They were having fun… You know what kind of temporal thrust is created then!

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-16 16:00:24 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Think of it this way. The Terminator, once it had gone back, was no longer part of the timeline where Skynet existed. By traveling through time, it had ceased to be a part of that future, and was now a part of the past(it’s present). When it changed the circumstnaces around SkyNet’s creation, thus ensuring that SkyNet would never exist, it didn’t matter, because he no longer had anything to do with that time. <<

That’s not true– Skynet *built* the Terminator. If Skynet is wiped out of existence before it makes the Terminator, then the Terminator is never made, thus never sent to the past, thus is in no way able to wipe Skynet out of existence, etc.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-17 19:36:13 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>That’s not true– Skynet *built* the Terminator. If Skynet is wiped out of existence before it makes the Terminator, then the Terminator is never made, thus never sent to the past, thus is in no way able to wipe Skynet out of existence, etc.<<

SKynet built the Terminator. It then sent it back in time(actuall, John Connor sent the second T-800 back). In 1992, the Treminator took steps to insure that Skynet would never exist. Does this present a problem? No, because in the Terminator’s past, Skynet DID exists. But that is past. The Future cannot effect the past, so the fact that there will be no Skynet means spit to the Terminator. This explanations, really only works in “T2″ and “The Terminator”‘s method, where it’s pretty much one-way travel.

Another way of looking at it, As soon as the second CPU was destroyed, the Time-line split, creating a separate time-line from the “Judgement Day” one, where Skynet would never exist.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-20 16:47:45 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>SKynet built the Terminator. It then sent it back in time(actuall, John Connor sent the second T-800 back). In 1992, the Treminator took steps to insure that Skynet would never exist. Does this present a problem? No, because in the Terminator’s past, Skynet DID exists. But that is past. The Future cannot effect the past, so the fact that there will be no Skynet means spit to the Terminator. This explanations, really only works in “T2″ and “The Terminator”‘s method, where it’s pretty much one-way travel.<<

OK, but only in the T2 method… Otherwise, the situation is something akin to going back and killing your father before you were conceived.

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-20 22:06:02 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>> OK, but only in the T2 method… Otherwise, the situation is something akin to going back and killing your father before you were conceived.<<

Well, of course in the T2 method(or T1 for that matter)! If you are using that kind of TT, then killing your father before you were born is fine(Just a new time-line).

Subj: Re:This time-thingy
Date: 96-06-23 17:32:01 EDT
From: Songokuten
Posted on: America Online

>>Well, of course in the T2 method(or T1 for that matter)! If you are using that kind of TT, then killing your father before you were born is fine(Just a new time-line).<<

Well, if I ever Time Travel, I’m not going to try it and take the chance… Besides, wouldn’t most TT stories state that this is a bad thing? I know the Doc in Back…Future would have a cow if Maty shot George McFly!

Subj: T2 Time theory
Date: 96-06-24 02:06:17 EDT
From: AustinMay
Posted on: America Online

My friend brought up a interesting point. In both flicks, the Terminator goes into the Time displacement machine first to kill someone… then the Resistance guy follows later.
*BUT* wouldn’t it be too late? Think about it. The Terminator goes in first… the second he is in, he is already back in time… too late for the Resistance guy to stop him. The Resistance guy would have to go in at exactly the same time to stop him because the Terminator would already be in the past and his mission already done.
Jus my 2 cents.

Subj: Re:T2 Time theory
Date: 96-06-24 18:21:02 EDT
From: HFMoon
Posted on: America Online

>>My friend brought up a interesting point. In both flicks, the Terminator goes into the Time displacement machine first to kill someone… then the Resistance guy follows later.
*BUT* wouldn’t it be too late? Think about it. The Terminator goes in first… the second he is in, he is already back in time… too late for the Resistance guy to stop him. The Resistance guy would have to go in at exactly the same time to stop him because the Terminator would already be in the past and his mission already done. <<

Ah, but before the Terminator goes back, history says that his mission failed(John Connor is alive). So by the time the Terminator does go back, his mission has already failed(it’s in his history)

 

 

 

 

 

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